Naff F1 journalism

Myrvold · Post by **Myrvold** » 24 Mar 2011, 00:06

shinji wrote:Getting a bit paranoid there Cap'n, methinks.

2nd that...

patrick · Post by **patrick** » 24 Mar 2011, 01:01

Myrvold wrote:
shinji wrote:Getting a bit paranoid there Cap'n, methinks.

2nd that...

third, while the bias is indeed there, I do not think it is likely Joe had any input into the article based on the amount of mud he slings at FOM. Tonio does appear to have a lot of supporters within the paddock, many have cited his karting prowess and several drivers have said nice things about him. Of course, we are yet to see that skill arise in F1, but I do think a lot of the animosity directed at him, especially during last year, was unnecessary.

But yes, the official site is rather poor, but I don't really see what else they can do. They aren't a news site, they will just provide basic information and press releases because the majority of people who use that site will be casual fans looking for easy to digest stories and flashy graphics.

Paul Hayes · Post by **Paul Hayes** » 24 Mar 2011, 09:31

Their race music video edits are often quite good fun, I'll say that for them.

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 24 Mar 2011, 10:37

My problems against the official site are because this site is far behind other official sites, mainly their American counter-parts. These show that they think and care at least a bit for their fans. Having said that, the live timings are a good thing. But its an absolute MINIMUM...

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 24 Mar 2011, 22:57

DanielPT wrote:My problems against the official site are because this site is far behind other official sites, mainly their American counter-parts. These show that they think and care at least a bit for their fans. Having said that, the live timings are a good thing. But its an absolute MINIMUM...

Seconded.

While some here may go completely off-the-rails at any mention of NASCAR, they are much more effective at retaining fans (well, the ones that actually like the sport, not the southern rednecks who worship Dale Jr because his daddy died). Their live coverage is insane - live video, live telemetry, live pit-to-car radio for all 43 cars at the same time, and so on. They also have the NASCAR fantasy championship, where users pick drivers who will score the most 'points' for them (you probably already get the fantasy championship concept anyway so I shall explain no further). The winner of that gets some kind of prize that I no longer remember what it is.
F1 has zero involvement with its fans. It exists within its own bubble. The audience are merely on the outside of that bubble peering in. Until Bernie & Co. burst that bubble for us, it will always remain this way.

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 25 Mar 2011, 18:33

F1 could definitely do so much much with modern technology than it currently does. Maybe an official podcast with the press conferences on them. The F1 games with feeder series to work up to an F1 career. Grands Prix clips available on YouTube (even if it is only up to the previous season for the sake of copyright ?!?!). Many previous races available through iTunes/Amazon/etc. And you can think of more, I'm sure.

JeanDenisAlcatraz · Post by **JeanDenisAlcatraz** » 25 Mar 2011, 20:42

dr-baker wrote:F1 could definitely do so much much with modern technology than it currently does. Maybe an official podcast with the press conferences on them. The F1 games with feeder series to work up to an F1 career. Grands Prix clips available on YouTube (even if it is only up to the previous season for the sake of copyright ?!?!). Many previous races available through iTunes/Amazon/etc. And you can think of more, I'm sure.

F1's technological output is shocking. F1.com used to be my news site of choice back in the day before it became official. The live timing (and particularly the free app) is fantastic, but apart from that it offers you nondescript wallpapers of stock CGI cars and the odd 'Look what oil-rich dictatorship fancies taking bread from it's peoples' mouths to fund an F1 race this month' story with Bernie shaking someone's hand.

It's often the case, though. Liverpoolfc.tv is usually pretty good with its stories and features and its tech stuff, but I get pretty much everything (news, wallpapers, gossip) off a fan site and blogs. Of the top level official motorsports sites, WRC.com is by far the best I've experienced and its app is also excellent (if a little slow when not on WiFi). However, they can all take a lesson from NFL.com, which has an almost perfect mixture of live, in-game tech, comment and opinion and information.

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 26 Mar 2011, 01:01

shinji wrote:Getting a bit paranoid there Cap'n, methinks.

No, the excessive love for Liuzzi has Saward's sticky fingerprints all over it.

Myrvold · Post by **Myrvold** » 26 Mar 2011, 02:06

Captain Hammer wrote:
shinji wrote:Getting a bit paranoid there Cap'n, methinks.

No, the excessive love for Liuzzi has Saward's sticky fingerprints all over it.

Ofc. And if I write a post full of Liuzzi-love, my account have been hacked by him

Salamander · Post by **Salamander** » 26 Mar 2011, 11:39

Captain Hammer wrote:
shinji wrote:Getting a bit paranoid there Cap'n, methinks.

No, the excessive love for Liuzzi has Saward's sticky fingerprints all over it.

Knock it off with the Joe Saward-hate, already. We all know you don't like him, you don't have to keep beating us over the head with it.

DonTirri · Post by **DonTirri** » 26 Mar 2011, 13:52

BlindCaveSalamander wrote:
Captain Hammer wrote:
shinji wrote:Getting a bit paranoid there Cap'n, methinks.

No, the excessive love for Liuzzi has Saward's sticky fingerprints all over it.

Knock it off with the Joe Saward-hate, already. We all know you don't like him, you don't have to keep beating us over the head with it.

Give poor Cappin' some slack. After all, he needs SOMETHING to make himself feel better, after all, the reject of the race thread was robbed from him!!!!

LukeB · Post by **LukeB** » 26 Mar 2011, 18:50

When Jenson Button goes off at the first corner tomorrow the good Captain will have to be put on suicide watch. Especially when Kobayashi goes on to win

fjackdaw · Post by **fjackdaw** » 26 Mar 2011, 19:38

Captain Hammer wrote:
shinji wrote:Getting a bit paranoid there Cap'n, methinks.

No, the excessive love for Liuzzi has Saward's sticky fingerprints all over it.

Whatever obsessive love Saward has for Liuzzi, your obsessive hatred for Saward is matching it. If you think it's annoying having to read about Liuzzi in Saward's posts, think how annoying it is having to read about Saward in your posts. Can we call it a draw and knock it on the head?

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 28 Jul 2011, 11:23

Resuscitating this thread to post a non story which is becoming increasingly obnoxious:

The VW to join F1 in the year 34072638832658 (or whatever) theme!

The Lukas · Post by **The Lukas** » 28 Jul 2011, 17:10

Come as in F1 are diesels. Then there are the cars with the "famous" logo TDI

Aerospeed · Post by **Aerospeed** » 28 Jul 2011, 23:13

DanielPT wrote:Resuscitating this thread to post a non story which is becoming increasingly obnoxious:

The VW to join F1 in the year 34072638832658 (or whatever) theme!

Now THAT'S a ridiculous goal, but that gives them lots and lots of time to develop a chassis and engine... seven years seems too big to completely go up in smoke after being overhyped for a long time. Go in when the regulations change in 2014.

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 30 Sep 2011, 00:38

My source can beat up your source.

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 30 Sep 2011, 11:50

Captain Hammer wrote:My source can beat up your source.

I am afraid that is not journalism. It just happens to be a journalist who is speculating on his personal blog about something he heard around...

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 30 Sep 2011, 12:30

It's deeply unprofessional to refer to a colleague as a "hack".

eagleash · Post by **eagleash** » 30 Sep 2011, 13:27

Captain Hammer wrote:It's deeply unprofessional to refer to a colleague as a "hack".

It is a term once in common use in the UK used to describe journalists as a whole & doesn't/didn't necessarily have the derogatory connotations sometimes ascribed to it. It's a bit passe now certainly....working journalist or journeyman journalist might have been a better description.

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 30 Sep 2011, 14:09

I agree that he went over the line there. But that is just who Joe Saward is. After all, he is the one who insults and disrespects his readers day after day in the commentaries...

Not that I am excusing him. It is just that it is expectable.

Ed24 · Post by **Ed24** » 30 Sep 2011, 14:17

I still think Joe Saward's probably got the best F1 blog. He posts stories that no-one else does, and has a great grasp of the business aspect of the sport.

His crude style often I think makes it better as he'll give you reports with limited crap and spin.

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 30 Sep 2011, 14:42

I could not contain a smile when in a commentary he mentioned that he wanted to see Vettel in a bad car conveniently forgetting that Vettel drove for Toro Rosso before he drove a Red Bull...

Cynon · Post by **Cynon** » 30 Sep 2011, 16:58

DanielPT wrote:I could not contain a smile when in a commentary he mentioned that he wanted to see Vettel in a bad car conveniently forgetting that Vettel drove for Toro Rosso before he drove a Red Bull...

Considering that the Toro Rosso cars were hand me down Red Bulls at the time... and that the Red Bull was a shitewagon... yeah. Totally not spin at all! Vettel has totally never had experience with a bad car towards the back of the field!

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 01 Oct 2011, 02:19

eagleash wrote:It is a term once in common use in the UK used to describe journalists as a whole & doesn't/didn't necessarily have the derogatory connotations sometimes ascribed to it. It's a bit passe now certainly....working journalist or journeyman journalist might have been a better description.

Reading the article fully, it appears Saward is referring to said journalist on the basis that he is reporting soemthing different to Saward. Both stories are based on each journalist being told something different. Neither discloses their sources, so it really amounts to "this journalist does not agree with me, so he is not very good". So I'm seeing the term 'hack' being used in a very derogatory sense.

eagleash · Post by **eagleash** » 01 Oct 2011, 08:53

Captain Hammer wrote:
eagleash wrote:It is a term once in common use in the UK used to describe journalists as a whole & doesn't/didn't necessarily have the derogatory connotations sometimes ascribed to it. It's a bit passe now certainly....working journalist or journeyman journalist might have been a better description.

Reading the article fully, it appears Saward is referring to said journalist on the basis that he is reporting soemthing different to Saward. Both stories are based on each journalist being told something different. Neither discloses their sources, so it really amounts to "this journalist does not agree with me, so he is not very good". So I'm seeing the term 'hack' being used in a very derogatory sense.

Individual interpretation........

JS says he doesn't know what the correct story may be. Whether this amounts to disagreeing with someone is, again, open to interpretation.

Ferrim · Post by **Ferrim** » 02 Oct 2011, 09:45

Cynon wrote:
DanielPT wrote:I could not contain a smile when in a commentary he mentioned that he wanted to see Vettel in a bad car conveniently forgetting that Vettel drove for Toro Rosso before he drove a Red Bull...

Considering that the Toro Rosso cars were hand me down Red Bulls at the time... and that the Red Bull was a shitewagon... yeah. Totally not spin at all! Vettel has totally never had experience with a bad car towards the back of the field!

Neither have Hamilton and Massa, for that matter...

Ed24 · Post by **Ed24** » 02 Oct 2011, 13:00

Ferrim wrote:Neither have Hamilton and Massa, for that matter...

Massa and Vettel don't even come close compared to Hamilton. Hamilton's worst car finished 3rd in the WCC!

Also, Hamilton's general attitude and performance when his car was quite bad, in early 2009, was terrible, and worse than Massa's, Kimi's etc. at the time.

Cynon · Post by **Cynon** » 02 Oct 2011, 21:30

Ferrim wrote:
Cynon wrote:
DanielPT wrote:I could not contain a smile when in a commentary he mentioned that he wanted to see Vettel in a bad car conveniently forgetting that Vettel drove for Toro Rosso before he drove a Red Bull...

Considering that the Toro Rosso cars were hand me down Red Bulls at the time... and that the Red Bull was a shitewagon... yeah. Totally not spin at all! Vettel has totally never had experience with a bad car towards the back of the field!

Neither have Hamilton and Massa, for that matter...

Obvious sarcasm was apparently not obvious enough. Massa used to drive the Saubers and he was the Master of Disaster. Hamilton had half a season in a bad car and he was being beaten by Kovalainen until McLaren remembered who the #1 driver in the team was...

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 03 Oct 2011, 01:04

Cynon wrote:Obvious sarcasm was apparently not obvious enough. Massa used to drive the Saubers and he was the Master of Disaster.

For one season before he stopped crashing so much and became somewhat boring.

Ferrim · Post by **Ferrim** » 03 Oct 2011, 21:55

Ed24 wrote:
Ferrim wrote:Neither have Hamilton and Massa, for that matter...

Massa and Vettel don't even come close compared to Hamilton. Hamilton's worst car finished 3rd in the WCC!

Also, Hamilton's general attitude and performance when his car was quite bad, in early 2009, was terrible, and worse than Massa's, Kimi's etc. at the time.

You could argue that the car finished 3rd because of Hamilton, though. That car was overall no better than the Brawn, the Red Bull, the Toyota and the Williams (and probably the Ferrari as well, although they had the problem with Massa).

Cynon wrote: Hamilton had half a season in a bad car and he was being beaten by Kovalainen until McLaren remembered who the #1 driver in the team was...

Eeeh... sorry but Kovalainen was utterly trashed by Hamilton. At no point was Kovalainen beating him during their two years at McLaren, not even close on race pace. Maybe the scoreboard in 2009 didn't show it until the final part of the season, but that was because the car was a pile of crap.

Ed24 · Post by **Ed24** » 04 Oct 2011, 14:06

Ferrim wrote:You could argue that the car finished 3rd because of Hamilton, though. That car was overall no better than the Brawn, the Red Bull, the Toyota and the Williams (and probably the Ferrari as well, although they had the problem with Massa).

Well the McLaren only finished 3rd because of Massa's injury, considering McLaren were 18 points behind Ferrari at the start of Hungary, and only ended up 1 point ahead at the end of the year with Badoer/Fisichella scoring 0 points. I think we can safely assume that Massa would've scored at least 2 points if he wasn't hit by the spring.

Also, in the first half of the year, when the McLaren was atrocious, Hamilton threw away his three best chances of a good result - liegate, many spins at China in the wet and crashing in Q1 at Monaco.

From Hockenheim onwards, we can't consider that the McLaren was a poor car, as it was clearly on a level with the best cars on the grid. Hamilton doesn't go from a qualifying run of 16th/16th/19th to 5th/4th/1st just through better driving.

Ferrim wrote:Eeeh... sorry but Kovalainen was utterly trashed by Hamilton. At no point was Kovalainen beating him during their two years at McLaren, not even close on race pace. Maybe the scoreboard in 2009 didn't show it until the final part of the season, but that was because the car was a pile of crap.

I agree that Hamilton still beat Kovalainen comfortably, but I think it was closer in the first half of the season when the car was at its worst.

From Melbourne to Britain, Kovalainen outqualified Hamilton 4/7 times, and had a better average grid position (12.6 to 13.1). After that, Hamilton outqualified Kovalainen all but once, at Brazil in the wet - and he was only one spot behind, and his average was substantially better (5.1 to 9.1).

Ferrim · Post by **Ferrim** » 04 Oct 2011, 15:41

You're quite right on Hamilton's mishaps in early 2009, I had forgotten these.

I seem to remember Hamilton wasn't beating Kovalainen in qualifying so easily in 2008, either. But, for some reason, on race day Hamilton always was streets ahead.

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 04 Oct 2011, 22:01

Ferrim wrote:I seem to remember Hamilton wasn't beating Kovalainen in qualifying so easily in 2008, either. But, for some reason, on race day Hamilton always was streets ahead.

I'm guessing Kovalainen's Fisichellitis has something to do with it.

Myrvold · Post by **Myrvold** » 04 Oct 2011, 22:11

I'm guessing that McLaren strategy always was "Hamilton's strategy, but add some fuel to make his car heavier"

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 12 Oct 2011, 23:49

Joe Saward provides us with another example of bad journalism:

If it turns out that Mallya is now announcing the sale of a minority of the shares or some such arrangement no-one is going to believe anything that he says as he will already have told a whopping great lie, insisting that the team is not for sale.

Except that Mallya never denied selling a minority stake in the team. He only said that he would not be selling the entire team.

fjackdaw · Post by **fjackdaw** » 12 Oct 2011, 23:51

Captain Hammer wrote:Joe Saward provides us with another example of bad journalism:
If it turns out that Mallya is now announcing the sale of a minority of the shares or some such arrangement no-one is going to believe anything that he says as he will already have told a whopping great lie, insisting that the team is not for sale.

Except that Mallya never denied selling a minority stake in the team. He only said that he would not be selling the entire team.

Why not try not reading Joe Saward's columns?

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 13 Oct 2011, 01:29

Okay, the connotation of "for sale" is selling the team in its entirety - something that Mallya denied. The sale of a stake in the team to the Sahara Group is not the sale of an entire team. The Sahara Group have equal power within the team; they do not have a controlling stake, and therefore, the team has not been sold. Saward clearly dislikes Mallya, and has once again let his bias get in the way of his professional responsibilities.

eagleash · Post by **eagleash** » 13 Oct 2011, 06:10

fjackdaw wrote:
Captain Hammer wrote:Joe Saward provides us with another example of bad journalism:
If it turns out that Mallya is now announcing the sale of a minority of the shares or some such arrangement no-one is going to believe anything that he says as he will already have told a whopping great lie, insisting that the team is not for sale.

Except that Mallya never denied selling a minority stake in the team. He only said that he would not be selling the entire team.

Why not try not reading Joe Saward's columns?

Because that way the Capt. would not be able to trawl Joe's blog for perceived errors, in order to pursue his obsession.

Peter · Post by **Peter** » 13 Oct 2011, 06:44

Myrvold wrote:I'm guessing that McLaren strategy always was "Hamilton's strategy, but add some fuel to make his car heavier"

This. Second drivers really got it bad in the days of refueling. Their teams would stockpile the fuel onto their cars for qualifying and the race, for God knows why. Wow, the days when the pitwall controlled all of the race strategy must've sucked.