Naff F1 journalism

Salamander · Post by **Salamander** » 13 Oct 2011, 07:44

Captain Hammer wrote:Okay, the connotation of "for sale" is selling the team in its entirety - something that Mallya denied. The sale of a stake in the team to the Sahara Group is not the sale of an entire team. The Sahara Group have equal power within the team; they do not have a controlling stake, and therefore, the team has not been sold. Saward clearly dislikes Mallya, and has once again let his bias get in the way of his professional responsibilities.

He's hated him ever since he fired Liuzzi. He keeps saying he hates being lied to, and that's the reason for his article's tone, but really, everybody denies everything in F1. Remember Alonso to Ferrari, and how all parties denied that vehemently. But lo and behold, who is there for 2010? None other than Alonso! And what Mallya said was not a lie, more of a half-truth. If he can't handle these things, he's clearly in the wrong profession.

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 13 Oct 2011, 09:18

Captain Hammer wrote:Joe Saward provides us with another example of bad journalism:
If it turns out that Mallya is now announcing the sale of a minority of the shares or some such arrangement no-one is going to believe anything that he says as he will already have told a whopping great lie, insisting that the team is not for sale.

Except that Mallya never denied selling a minority stake in the team. He only said that he would not be selling the entire team.

For me what it is worst is that he is blatantly calling Mallya a liar. Isn't that libellous? It doesn't matter if it is a newspaper or a blog if you insult someone like that without a clear case. But yes, Joe can't forget the way VM treated his best pal Liuzzi...

eagleash · Post by **eagleash** » 13 Oct 2011, 10:13

Captain Hammer wrote:Except that Mallya never denied selling a minority stake in the team. He only said that he would not be selling the entire team.

Did he? Source?

JS' point is that clearly a deal for nearly half the team was very much on the table & that his opinion is that more is to come & VM may not be be telling the truth as to his long term plans. I.e. he was possibly being disingenuous about his plans for the team & any "protestations" that this is the end of any sell off might be treated with some degree of scepticism.

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 16 Oct 2011, 03:04

Have to say, Saward is winning no friends for himself with his rebuttal, "you're attacking me, so I must be right".

Anyway, more naff motorsports journalism, and a very disturbing variety. Casey Stoner (or, as he shall now be known, CASEY STONER!!) can win the MotoGP title at Philip Island this weekend, but he was an outside chance ... until this morning, when Jorge Lorenzo was ruled out of the race. He crashed heavily in qualifying, and he wasn't able to let go of the bike in time. He's seriously hurt his hand, and may have even lost a part of his finger. The Australian commentators, however, showed no concern for him because CASEY STONER!! now has a much easier chance of winning the World Championship, and it will be a magical moment for all Australians, because CASEY STONER!! will win his second title at his home race (though most people despire Stoner; he's very unlikeable). Even when they express concern for Lorezno, the commentators are still openly smirking about it.

Still, if CASEY STONER!! wins, maybe they'll leave Formula 1 alone.

the Masked Lapwing · Post by **the Masked Lapwing** » 16 Oct 2011, 04:21

Captain Hammer wrote:Have to say, Saward is winning no friends for himself with his rebuttal, "you're attacking me, so I must be right".

Anyway, more naff motorsports journalism, and a very disturbing variety. Casey Stoner (or, as he shall now be known, CASEY STONER!!) can win the MotoGP title at Philip Island this weekend, but he was an outside chance ... until this morning, when Jorge Lorenzo was ruled out of the race. He crashed heavily in qualifying, and he wasn't able to let go of the bike in time. He's seriously hurt his hand, and may have even lost a part of his finger. The Australian commentators, however, showed no concern for him because CASEY STONER!! now has a much easier chance of winning the World Championship, and it will be a magical moment for all Australians, because CASEY STONER!! will win his second title at his home race (though most people despire Stoner; he's very unlikeable). Even when they express concern for Lorezno, the commentators are still openly smirking about it.

Still, if CASEY STONER!! wins, maybe they'll leave Formula 1 alone.

I refuse to watch the MotoGP, because it's robbing me of watching F1 properly (i.e. not on One). But that's what happens when AUSTRALIA'S MARK WEBBER isn't winning, and WESTERN AUSTRALIA'S DANIEL RICCIARDO is starting last.

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 16 Oct 2011, 04:45

MotoGP is pretty boring, but Moto2 is fantastic. This year's race at Aragon was absolutely fantastic; at some points, there were one or two lead changes per lap.

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 16 Oct 2011, 04:57

Captain Hammer wrote:MotoGP is pretty boring, but Moto2 is fantastic. This year's race at Aragon was absolutely fantastic; at some points, there were one or two lead changes per lap.

I saw the last few minutes of the Moto2 qualifying at the Island yesterday and it was absolutely brilliant.

eagleash · Post by **eagleash** » 19 Oct 2011, 23:29

"Bump"

Here's f1Vole sending up the dreadful PitPass "site".....

http://thef1vole.wordpress.com/2011/10/ ... -articles/

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 19 Oct 2011, 23:39

Amusing. While I haven't read the Spitpass article on Saward - I'm heading over there now - I still have to say that I think Saward was in the wrong for criticising Vijay Mallya for "lying" since Mallya never actually said what Saward was accusing him of. He said something similar, but he never ruled out the possibility of a partial sale of the team. Saward appears to have interpreted Mallya's comments as meaning he would never sell so much as 1% of Force India, which is untrue.

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 20 Oct 2011, 10:57

Captain Hammer wrote:Amusing. While I haven't read the Spitpass article on Saward - I'm heading over there now - I still have to say that I think Saward was in the wrong for criticising Vijay Mallya for "lying" since Mallya never actually said what Saward was accusing him of. He said something similar, but he never ruled out the possibility of a partial sale of the team. Saward appears to have interpreted Mallya's comments as meaning he would never sell so much as 1% of Force India, which is untrue.

I must say that it is quite an attack on Mr Saward. 'Spitpass', as you say, went berserk. It might have something to do with what Mr Saward said many months ago about the lack of pit passes within Pitpass to devalue news reports produced by this site. Although a bit disgusting they have got a few points right like the treatment Mr Saward gives to the fans who dare to disagree with him, prompting my favorite quote:

Pitpass about Mr Saward berating readers wrote:It sounds like something out of a communist state and, befitting the theme, censorship soon followed.

Another thing they got right was the defamatory comments about Mallya although they missed linking this to Mr Saward personal vendetta against Mallya because of the treatment Liuzzi got last year at Force India. The last paragraph is just the cherry on top of the cake.

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 20 Oct 2011, 11:03

I can't actually find the Spitpass article criticising Saward.

No, wait, I've got it now.

AdrianSutil · Post by **AdrianSutil** » 20 Oct 2011, 18:01

Captain Hammer wrote:I can't actually find the Spitpass article criticising Saward.

No, wait, I've got it now.

Very good article I thought. Pitpass are right though, you just can't go around calling people 'a liar' because your story didn't add up to what really happened. Saward does come across as arrogant, as in 'I'm right, your wrong, end of discussion', and that's no way to carry on.

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 20 Oct 2011, 21:50

I also found it pretty telling that Saward keeps predicting team sales that never come to pass. I've read the articles and I've found them interesting, but I never noticed the connection between predicted sales and speedy denials until Pitpass pointed it out. Going into the supposed Force India sale, Saward was zero for three - he predicted that Toro Rosso and Renault would be sold (to the Emiratis and to a Group Lotus purchased by Gerard Lopez respectively), only for them to be denied, and then kept insinuating about a "Chinese billioniare in pit lane looking to buy a team" that was never reported by anyone else and never came to ruition. Saward needed to be be accurate the next time around, and he latched onto the Force India story. He's also held a grudge against Vijay Mallya ever since Mallya dropped Liuzzi late last year. Accusing Mallya of lying over a supposed sale was just the final nail in the coffin.

Post by **Londoner** » 21 Oct 2011, 09:48

I'm personally quite glad that I don't read Saward's blog properly, if he treats his readers like that. I usually use F1 Fanatic, which is much more friendly and informative.

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 21 Oct 2011, 10:11

East Londoner wrote:I'm personally quite glad that I don't read Saward's blog properly, if he treats his readers like that. I usually use F1 Fanatic, which is much more friendly and informative.

If you bypass his delusional speculative paragraphs and avoid at all costs to comment or read comments of any post (never mind those related to FI or Liuzzi) it is still a very informative blog. After all, the guy goes to every race and has full access to paddock and gives good insight into it.

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 22 Oct 2011, 10:36

Ladies and gentlemen, the comedy stylings of Joe Saward:

The initial reactions to the idea of a race on the streets of New Jersey were almost all negative. That was back in August when I first reported the idea.

No, you didn't, Joe. I believe Keith Collantine was the first one in the Formula 1 community to get a story up, but his source was the local media in New York and New Jersey.

eagleash · Post by **eagleash** » 22 Oct 2011, 12:50

Captain Hammer wrote:Ladies and gentlemen, the comedy stylings of Joe Saward:
The initial reactions to the idea of a race on the streets of New Jersey were almost all negative. That was back in August when I first reported the idea.

No, you didn't, Joe. I believe Keith Collantine was the first one in the Formula 1 community to get a story up, but his source was the local media in New York and New Jersey.

Sorry Capt. but you've construed something Joe has said to suit your own agenda.

He does not claim to be the first to report the story but merely says that August was when he (JS) first reported on it.

Peter · Post by **Peter** » 22 Oct 2011, 19:29

eagleash wrote:
Captain Hammer wrote:Ladies and gentlemen, the comedy stylings of Joe Saward:
The initial reactions to the idea of a race on the streets of New Jersey were almost all negative. That was back in August when I first reported the idea.

No, you didn't, Joe. I believe Keith Collantine was the first one in the Formula 1 community to get a story up, but his source was the local media in New York and New Jersey.

Sorry Capt. but you've construed something Joe has said to suit your own agenda.

He does not claim to be the first to report the story but merely says that August was when he (JS) first reported on it.

This.

You're finding everything you can now in Saward's articles to hate on him. That's the kind of thing a Republican does to Obama, no offence to your intellect

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 23 Oct 2011, 01:23

If I'm attacking Joe for saying something he didn't, maybe he can learn from the expeirence.

But then, he's so arrogant that criticism simply bounces off him.

fjackdaw · Post by **fjackdaw** » 23 Oct 2011, 09:04

Captain Hammer wrote:If I'm attacking Joe for saying something he didn't, maybe he can learn from the expeirence.

But then, he's so arrogant that criticism simply bounces off him.

And also he doesn't read F1 Rejects.

Salamander · Post by **Salamander** » 23 Oct 2011, 15:33

fjackdaw wrote:
Captain Hammer wrote:If I'm attacking Joe for saying something he didn't, maybe he can learn from the expeirence.

But then, he's so arrogant that criticism simply bounces off him.

And also he doesn't read F1 Rejects.

And also he probably doesn't care what you think.

JeanDenisAlcatraz · Post by **JeanDenisAlcatraz** » 23 Oct 2011, 18:58

Can I open myself to a barrage and ask why everybody hates Pitpass so much?

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 24 Oct 2011, 00:14

They're unprofessional, their sources are usually specious, and they rush to get articles up first which results in a lower quality of writing.

fjackdaw · Post by **fjackdaw** » 24 Oct 2011, 11:22

Captain Hammer wrote:But then, he's so arrogant that criticism simply bounces off him.

Oh the irony.

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 24 Oct 2011, 11:30

fjackdaw wrote:
Captain Hammer wrote:But then, he's so arrogant that criticism simply bounces off him.

Oh the irony.

eagleash · Post by **eagleash** » 24 Oct 2011, 11:38

DanielPT wrote:
fjackdaw wrote:
Captain Hammer wrote:But then, he's so arrogant that criticism simply bounces off him.

Oh the irony.

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 24 Oct 2011, 23:12

fjackdaw wrote:Oh the irony.

Hey, I can take criticism. I just don't feel the need to make a big deal out of the fact that I've taken it.

Peter · Post by **Peter** » 25 Oct 2011, 00:55

Captain Hammer wrote:
fjackdaw wrote:Oh the irony.

Hey, I can take criticism. I just don't feel the need to make a big deal out of the fact that I've taken it.

One thing I admire about you is that, despite criticism and hate, you are unmoved by them, and stand firmly by your opinion. It's a good trait, but then again, makes you come off as stubborn, and annoying. You'd make a good journalist though, you get some info that no one could find.

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 11 Nov 2011, 13:14

http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2011/11/ ... or-mallya/

Is it just me, or does anyone else get a mental picture of Saward writing this with a smug, self-satisfied smirk on his face, given his dislike of Vijay Mallya? Given his tendency to always go to the worst-case scenario for Force India, I wouldn't be surprised if Kingfisher's troubles aren't half as bad as Saward makes them out to be.

Post by **mario** » 11 Nov 2011, 13:37

Captain Hammer wrote:http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2011/11/11/more-troubles-for-mallya/

Is it just me, or does anyone else get a mental picture of Saward writing this with a smug, self-satisfied smirk on his face, given his dislike of Vijay Mallya? Given his tendency to always go to the worst-case scenario for Force India, I wouldn't be surprised if Kingfisher's troubles aren't half as bad as Saward makes them out to be.

To be honest Saward does have a point - the BBC is reporting that Kingfisher might have to cancel around 30% of its flights under what Mallya claims is a procedure to rationalise their flights. Moreover, it seems that the Indian Government is seriously considering offering Mallya's airlines financial assistance, suggesting that they believe that Mallya's companies are in major financial trouble. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-15691181
Yes, I imagine that there is a certain amount of schadenfreude involved in that article, but when you have other news outlets reporting that there are problems I'd say that Saward probably has a point here.

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 11 Nov 2011, 15:14

mario wrote:
Captain Hammer wrote:http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2011/11/11/more-troubles-for-mallya/

Is it just me, or does anyone else get a mental picture of Saward writing this with a smug, self-satisfied smirk on his face, given his dislike of Vijay Mallya? Given his tendency to always go to the worst-case scenario for Force India, I wouldn't be surprised if Kingfisher's troubles aren't half as bad as Saward makes them out to be.

To be honest Saward does have a point - the BBC is reporting that Kingfisher might have to cancel around 30% of its flights under what Mallya claims is a procedure to rationalise their flights. Moreover, it seems that the Indian Government is seriously considering offering Mallya's airlines financial assistance, suggesting that they believe that Mallya's companies are in major financial trouble. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-15691181
Yes, I imagine that there is a certain amount of schadenfreude involved in that article, but when you have other news outlets reporting that there are problems I'd say that Saward probably has a point here.

Thing is that Joe Saward basically reports anything relevant in the life of Vijay Mallya. Specially if it is something that goes bad. He tends to give a bad light into everything involving either FI or VM and the only one who spent a whole week outraged by a supposed sale of shares in Force India was him. If I remember correctly, he didn't reported Vodafone economical status. Or Santander's, which is not going that great. In terms of sponsorship he only reports about three companies: Air Asia, Lotus (justified given they probably co-own former Renault F1 team) and Kingfisher... Anyway, given that is a blog he is entitled to, but does not bode well for his articles, no mater how professional he is.

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 11 Nov 2011, 20:24

DanielPT wrote:If I remember correctly, he didn't reported Vodafone economical status.

As an interesting sidenote, Vodafone was voted the worst Telcom in Australia for the past year. Annoyingly, they're also cleaning house in the V8s because the factory Ford and Holden teams have had torrid luck/generally been useless.

Post by **mario** » 11 Nov 2011, 20:33

DanielPT wrote:
mario wrote:
Captain Hammer wrote:http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2011/11/11/more-troubles-for-mallya/

Is it just me, or does anyone else get a mental picture of Saward writing this with a smug, self-satisfied smirk on his face, given his dislike of Vijay Mallya? Given his tendency to always go to the worst-case scenario for Force India, I wouldn't be surprised if Kingfisher's troubles aren't half as bad as Saward makes them out to be.

To be honest Saward does have a point - the BBC is reporting that Kingfisher might have to cancel around 30% of its flights under what Mallya claims is a procedure to rationalise their flights. Moreover, it seems that the Indian Government is seriously considering offering Mallya's airlines financial assistance, suggesting that they believe that Mallya's companies are in major financial trouble. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-15691181
Yes, I imagine that there is a certain amount of schadenfreude involved in that article, but when you have other news outlets reporting that there are problems I'd say that Saward probably has a point here.

Thing is that Joe Saward basically reports anything relevant in the life of Vijay Mallya. Specially if it is something that goes bad. He tends to give a bad light into everything involving either FI or VM and the only one who spent a whole week outraged by a supposed sale of shares in Force India was him. If I remember correctly, he didn't reported Vodafone economical status. Or Santander's, which is not going that great. In terms of sponsorship he only reports about three companies: Air Asia, Lotus (justified given they probably co-own former Renault F1 team) and Kingfisher... Anyway, given that is a blog he is entitled to, but does not bode well for his articles, no mater how professional he is.

Certainly it is true that Saward has a tendency to let his personal bias get in the way, particularly when he has the opportunity to criticize Mallya - it's just that, in this particular instance, I feel that the article has some validity where Saward sticks to the facts (that Kingfisher Airlines is in financial difficulty and their shares have been rapidly dropping in value). It's when he lets his personal prejudice come to the fore when he writes his articles that the problems start, and his journalistic integrity is compromised...

Phoenix · Post by **Phoenix** » 11 Nov 2011, 22:07

It'd be a shame if FI has to be sold entirely, since they've made great progress since they took over Spyker in 2008 and a new buyer would likely undo all that.

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 12 Nov 2011, 00:35

DanielPT wrote:Thing is that Joe Saward basically reports anything relevant in the life of Vijay Mallya. Specially if it is something that goes bad. He tends to give a bad light into everything involving either FI or VM and the only one who spent a whole week outraged by a supposed sale of shares in Force India was him.

That's my point - Saward is still holding a grudge against Mallya for dropping Liuzzi early. It's manifested itself as mis-reporting, like when he attacked Mallya for "lying" about the sale of his team when Mallya did not sell his team at all. So it's very difficult to take anything Saward says (particularly about Mallya) seriously because he's been so unprofessional in the past.

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 12 Nov 2011, 02:16

Captain Hammer wrote:
DanielPT wrote:Thing is that Joe Saward basically reports anything relevant in the life of Vijay Mallya. Specially if it is something that goes bad. He tends to give a bad light into everything involving either FI or VM and the only one who spent a whole week outraged by a supposed sale of shares in Force India was him.

That's my point - Saward is still holding a grudge against Mallya for dropping Liuzzi early. It's manifested itself as mis-reporting, like when he attacked Mallya for "lying" about the sale of his team when Mallya did not sell his team at all. So it's very difficult to take anything Saward says (particularly about Mallya) seriously because he's been so unprofessional in the past.

I'm unwilling to take your opinion as valid as you are just as hateful towards certain members of the F1 community. If you can write an entirely positive report on some aspect of Scuderia Ferrari then fair enough, your endless spouting of hate is justified. Until then I can't see this as anything other than endless vilification. He's extreme but does post some useful information from time to time.

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 12 Nov 2011, 03:37

kostas22 wrote:I'm unwilling to take your opinion as valid as you are just as hateful towards certain members of the F1 community.

Considering that you posted one of the most flawed and poorly-researched posts that I have ever seen, nothing you say on the subject of journalism is of any consequence.

JJMonty · Post by **JJMonty** » 12 Nov 2011, 09:16

Captain Hammer wrote:
kostas22 wrote:I'm unwilling to take your opinion as valid as you are just as hateful towards certain members of the F1 community.

Considering that you posted one of the most flawed and poorly-researched posts that I have ever seen, nothing you say on the subject of journalism is of any consequence.

I don't see how reporting something about bad paint jobs is a flawed and poorly re-searched

Eitherway, I do agree to a point with Captain Hammer, everything Joe Saward has reported has to be taken with a pinch of salt, he has written some fantastic reports in the past because he can blog it and add emotion to the reports - but it is a blog after all and his emotions/opinions can get very bias (and cringeworthy to read), however when non motorsport news articles from the rest of the world are also reporting Kingfisher's difficulties, you'd have to say that for the first time in a while, Saward is actually giving facts and not more whiney bull-crap.

@ Captain Hammer, you said earlier that you can take critisism as well as you give it out, in the 2 years I've been reading this forum, you have made a lot of opinionated remarks that have ended up with arguements happening and then when I read new posts, I see users making "sly" references to previous incidents with you (this one included), just take it on the chin please so we don't lose another page to this rubbish :geek:

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 12 Nov 2011, 10:21

JJMonty wrote:
Captain Hammer wrote:
kostas22 wrote:I'm unwilling to take your opinion as valid as you are just as hateful towards certain members of the F1 community.

Considering that you posted one of the most flawed and poorly-researched posts that I have ever seen, nothing you say on the subject of journalism is of any consequence.

I don't see how reporting something about bad paint jobs is a flawed and poorly re-searched

kostas22 wrote:The latest copy of F1 Racing just dropped in my letterbox today, and there's an article about the ugliest paintjobs to ever grace a Formula One car. For those who don't have F1R, here's a sample of what they think, adapted & abridged by yours truly. Personally I think at least half of is absolute nonsense and not deserving to be on the list.

Poorly researched? He quoted his source and was merely passing his own opinion on their opinions of poor paintjobs.

But this forum is known for not having flamewars. Can we keep it that way? Please?

Kuwashima · Post by **Kuwashima** » 12 Nov 2011, 11:05

dr-baker wrote:But this forum is known for not having flamewars. Can we keep it that way? Please?

x2
@Kostas22 and @Captain Hammer - please play nice, children

make your point, fine, but no need to get personal.