Unusual F1 Stats

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Bobby Doorknobs
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Re: Unusual F1 Stats

Post by Bobby Doorknobs »

Because it's a lot more drivers, and a significant number of those only won once or twice, I'll only do the top 30. So, here is the all-time wins total for the FIA (and before 1978, CSI) World Championship of Drivers, which was declared defunct by Jean-Marie Balestre as of December 31, 1980:

1. Jackie Stewart - 27
2. Jim Clark - 25
3. Juan Manuel Fangio - 24
4. Niki Lauda - 17
5. Stirling Moss - 16
6. Graham Hill - 14
=. Jack Brabham - 14
=. Emerson Fittipaldi - 14
9. Alberto Ascari - 13
10. Mario Andretti - 12
11. James Hunt - 10
=. Ronnie Peterson - 10
=. Jody Scheckter - 10
=. Carlos Reutemann - 10
=. Alan Jones - 10
16. Jacky Ickx - 8
=. Denny Hulme - 8
18. Tony Brooks - 6
=. John Surtees - 6
=. Jochen Rindt - 6
21. Giuseppe Farina - 5
=. Clay Regazzoni - 5
23. Dan Gurney - 4
=. Bruce McLaren - 4
=. Gilles Villeneuve - 4
=. Jacques Laffite - 4
27. Mike Hawthorn - 3
=. Peter Collins - 3
=. Phil Hill - 3
=. Nelson Piquet - 3

Of the remaining drivers, the ones that continued to win past 1980 were René Arnoux (2 wins), John Watson and Didier Pironi (1 win each)

For the International Cup for F1 Constructors:

1. Lotus - 71
2. Ferrari - 54
3. McLaren - 24
4. Brabham - 23
5. Tyrrell - 21
6. BRM - 17
7. Cooper - 16
8. Williams - 11
9. Matra - 9
10. Vanwall - 6
=. Ligier - 6
12. Renault - 4
13. March - 3
=. Wolf - 3
15. Honda - 2
16. Porsche - 1
=. Hesketh - 1
=. Penske - 1
=. Shadow - 1
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Re: Unusual F1 Stats

Post by Waris »

Simtek wrote:...


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Re: Unusual F1 Stats

Post by dinizintheoven »

The classification for the Spanish Grand Prix looked slightly odd in the numbers column, because all three drivers had repeated digits:
1. 44 Lewis Hamilton
2. 77 Valtteri Bottas
3. 33 Max Verstappen

I was wondering when the last time was that this happened, if any - because, since the new numbering system was brought in for the 2014 season, 66 is the only repeated-digit number not yet used. Sergio Pérez (11) and Jenson Button (22) have both been on the podium in that time - but Carlos Sainz (55) hasn't made it yet, Adrian Sutil (99) was never going to in that recalcitrant Sauber and Rio Haryanto (88) had even less chance in a Manor. So what you see above is the only time this has happened in the 2014-18 numbering era, even though it has been possible in earlier seasons when Bottas drove a competitive Williams and Pérez had a Force India that was capable of threatening the top three.

Between 1996 and 2013 with the numbers based on the previous season's championship positions, there was only ever 11 and 22, and some seasons were missing 22 if there weren't enough teams, so all those years can be ruled out.

Before this, in the previous permanent-for-the-season numbering system from 1974-95, only these years had three or more drivers with repeated-digit numbers:
1992: 11 (Mika Häkkinen, Lotus), 22 (Pierluigi Martini, Dallara), 33 (Maurício Gugelmin, Jordan)
1991: 11 (Mika Häkkinen, Lotus), 22 (JJ Lehto, Dallara), 33 (Andrea de Cesaris, Jordan)
1990: 11 (Derek Warwick, Lotus), 22 (Andrea de Cesaris, Dallara), 33 (Roberto Moreno, EuroBrun, R1-14)
1989: 11 (Nelson Piquet, Lotus), 22 (Andrea de Cesaris, Dallara), 33 (Gregor Foitek / Oscar Larrauri, EuroBrun)
1988: 11 (Alain Prost, McLaren), 22 (Andrea de Cesaris, Rial), 33 (Stefano Modena, EuroBrun)
1985: 11 (Elio de Angelis, Lotus), 22 (Riccardo Patrese, Alfa Romeo), 33 (Alan Jones, Haas-Lola, R12/14-16)
1984: 11 (Elio de Angelis, Lotus), 22 (Riccardo Patrese, Alfa Romeo), 33 (Phillippe Streiff, Renault, R16)
1983: 11 (Elio de Angelis, Lotus), 22 (Andrea de Cesaris, Alfa Romeo), 33 (Roberto Guerrero, Theodore, R1-14)
1982: 11 (Elio de Angelis, Lotus, R1-3&5-16), 22 (Andrea de Cesaris, Alfa Romeo), 33 (four drivers, Theodore, R1-3&5-16)
1981: 11 (Elio de Angelis, Lotus, R1-3&5-15), 22 (Mario Andretti, Alfa Romeo), 33 (Patrick Tambay / Marc Surer, Theodore)
1979: 11 (Jody Scheckter, Ferrari), 22 (three drivers, Ensign), 33 (Derek Daly, Tyrrell, R14-15)
1978: 11 (Carlos Reutemann, Ferrari), 22 (five drivers, Ensign), 33 (Bruno Giacomelli, McLaren, R6/9-10/13-14), 55 (Jean-Pierre Jarier, Lotus, R15-16), 66 (Nelson Piquet, Brabham, R16)
1977: 11 (Niki Lauda / Gilles Villeneuve, R1-15/17), 22 (Clay Regazzoni / Jacky Ickx, Ensign), 33 (Boy Hayje / Andy Sutcliffe, RAM-March, R3/5-8/10/13), 44 (Tony Trimmer, Melchester-Surtees, R10)
1976: 11 (James Hunt, McLaren), 22 (four drivers, Ensign, R2-15), 33 (five drivers, RAM-Brabham, R4-5/7-9/11), 77 (Rolf Stommelen, Brabham, R10)
1975: 11 (Clay Regazzoni, Ferrari), 22 (five drivers, Embassy-Hill, R1-13), 33 (Eddie Keizan, Team Gunston Lotus, R3 & Roelof Wunderink, Ensign, R12)
1974: 11 (Clay Regazzoni, Ferrari), 22 (three drivers, Ensign, R1/5-15), 33 (three drivers, McLaren), 44 (Leo Kinnunen, AAW-Surtees, R5), 55 (Mario Andretti, Parnelli, R14-15)
And here's how we rule all of them out.
Ensign, Haas-Lola, Theodore and EuroBrun never took a driver to the podium, which gets rid of any season where there are only three repeated-digit numbers where these teams competed. Mika Häkkinen didn't get on the podium until 1993, which gets rid of the rest of the 1990s. Only the last race of 1984 had three repeated digits and none of the drivers were on the podium. And in the remaining years in the 1970s, only Mike Hailwood ever stood on the podium - once - in a repeated-digit car other than 11.

This just leaves the anything-goes-numbers-wise years from 1950-73 to check all the races, one by one, to see if there were any occurrences like the one we've just had... and all I needed was a cursory look at the winner in most cases to find that... yes, the 2018 Spanish Grand Prix [i]is/[i] unique in this respect.

But I did find also out that Emerson Fittipaldi won the 1972 Austrian Grand Prix with the now-famous reject number 31.
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Re: Unusual F1 Stats

Post by Vassago »

1962 was the first time Belgian GP allowed odd-numbered entries.

1968 was the first time Italian GP allowed odd-numbered entries but they promptly went back to even-only numbers the next two seasons.

The otherwise unheralded 1973 Argentine GP is the last F1 race where only even-numbered entries appeared in F1. It was also BRM's last F1 pole position (by Clay Regazzoni).
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Re: Unusual F1 Stats

Post by Fred Mayo »

When Ivan Capelli’s F1 career ended in March/April 1993, he hadn’t actually competed in a Japanese or Australian GP since November 1990.
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Re: Unusual F1 Stats

Post by Rob Dylan »

So Daniel Ricciardo's seventh win is his first from better than fourth on the grid, as all of his previous wins have been from starting between fourth and tenth on the grid. Are there any drivers out there with more than, say, two wins who never won from near the front of the grid? For example, only winning from lower than third or fourth on the grid?
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Re: Unusual F1 Stats

Post by girry »

Johnny Herbert's three wins were from fifth on the grid or lower.

Keke Rosberg's final win was from third position, all others were from fifth or lower.

John Watson's first win from second place, all others 7th or lower.

Denny Hulme had one win from 2nd on the grid, the remaining seven from fourth or lower.
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Re: Unusual F1 Stats

Post by Rob Dylan »

Wow, thinking about it, Herbert certainly was a lucky fellow. You can't argue that he didn't take advantage of his opportunities, though. When you compare that he got three wins whilst Alesi only got one says a lot about their careers, I think.
Murray Walker at the 1997 Austrian Grand Prix wrote:The other [Stewart] driver, who nobody's been paying attention to, because he's disappointing, is Jan Magnussen.
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Re: Unusual F1 Stats

Post by good_Ralf »

Rob Dylan wrote:Wow, thinking about it, Herbert certainly was a lucky fellow. You can't argue that he didn't take advantage of his opportunities, though. When you compare that he got three wins whilst Alesi only got one says a lot about their careers, I think.


While we've agreed he was inconsistent in another thread and did cost himself a lot of great results, I'd argue Jean lost at least three wins through no fault of his own (Belgium 1991, Italy 1995 and Monaco 1996, for example) and I don't think Herbert ever dropped out of P1 in a race. I consider both men to have been pretty unlucky in general though.

I've noticed giraurd's avatar (half of it so far) is working its magic again. And Lewis is close to breaking the record for the most consecutive finishes...
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Re: Unusual F1 Stats

Post by WeirdKerr »

good_Ralf wrote:
Rob Dylan wrote:Wow, thinking about it, Herbert certainly was a lucky fellow. You can't argue that he didn't take advantage of his opportunities, though. When you compare that he got three wins whilst Alesi only got one says a lot about their careers, I think.


While we've agreed he was inconsistent in another thread and did cost himself a lot of great results, I'd argue Jean lost at least three wins through no fault of his own (Belgium 1991, Italy 1995 and Monaco 1996, for example) and I don't think Herbert ever dropped out of P1 in a race. I consider both men to have been pretty unlucky in general though.

I've noticed giraurd's avatar (half of it so far) is working its magic again. And Lewis is close to breaking the record for the most consecutive finishes...


Herbert's first 2 wins both happened following Hill/Schumacher crashes.... given Schumacher was driving a Benetton you could argue he was instructed to crash to help his team mate.... lol :lol:
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Re: Unusual F1 Stats

Post by Rob Dylan »

WeirdKerr wrote:Herbert's first 2 wins both happened following Hill/Schumacher crashes.... given Schumacher was driving a Benetton you could argue he was instructed to crash to help his team mate.... lol :lol:
Let us not forget that Benetton was a British team, no less...
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Re: Unusual F1 Stats

Post by Rob Dylan »

So how many times in F1 history has the chequered flag been waved on the wrong lap?
Murray Walker at the 1997 Austrian Grand Prix wrote:The other [Stewart] driver, who nobody's been paying attention to, because he's disappointing, is Jan Magnussen.
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Re: Unusual F1 Stats

Post by Bleu »

At least three times too early: Britain 1985, China 2014 and Canada 2018.

Too late in one Monza race in 1980s and Brazil 2002.

There may be more.
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Re: Unusual F1 Stats

Post by Bobby Doorknobs »

Before anyone asks, the last time there were more than two Le Mans winners on an F1 grid was the 1995 Australian Grand Prix (Herbert, Blundell, Gachot and Brundle).
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Re: Unusual F1 Stats

Post by Rob Dylan »

Out of interest, when was the last time there were more than two Le Mans winners on the F1 grid?
Murray Walker at the 1997 Austrian Grand Prix wrote:The other [Stewart] driver, who nobody's been paying attention to, because he's disappointing, is Jan Magnussen.
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Re: Unusual F1 Stats

Post by CarloSpace »

Relevant question: What's the highest number of Le Mans winners on a F1 grid?
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Re: Unusual F1 Stats

Post by This Could Be You »

CarloSpace wrote:Relevant question: What's the highest number of Le Mans winners on a F1 grid?

Well, by my reckoning it will have to have been in the early 1970s- 1972 makes a case for itself, with the following drivers all having won Le Mans at some point in their careers either before or after competing in F1 that year
    Chris Amon
    Derek Bell
    Graham Hill
    Jacky Ickx
    Helmut Marko
    Jackie Oliver
    Henri Pescarolo
It's possible 1971/73 could be even better, but this stat took so long to make I can't be bothered to check
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Re: Unusual F1 Stats

Post by Bobby Doorknobs »

Ignoring future winners (Bell had not yet won Le Mans in 1972), I've not come up with any races where the figure exceeeded six. There have been years where there were seven across the whole season, but in those cases (1968 and 1970), one of the winners died early in the year. In 1968 Bianchi and Rodríguez didn't win it until after Scarfiotti's death, and Gurney only drove for McLaren after Bruce's death in 1970.

The first occurrence of six Le Mans winners practising for (but not starting) the same Grand Prix is the 1966 Italian Grand Prix, where we have:

Chris Amon (controversial 1966 winner, private Brabham-BRM)
Lorenzo Bandini (1963, Ferrari)
Phil Hill (1958, 1961-62, Eagle-Climax)
Bruce McLaren (the other controversial 1966 winner, McLaren)
Jochen Rindt (1965, Cooper)
Ludovico Scarfiotti (other 1963 winner, Ferrari)

Amon's car was running a Tasman-spec 2-litre BRM V8, while Hill was stuck with Gurney's old Coventry Climax unit, so it's little surprise that they didn't make the grid.

After Rodríguez and Bianchi took the GT40's third win together in 1968, we had this for the remainder of the season:

Chris Amon (Ferrari)
Lucien Bianchi (Cooper)
Dan Gurney (AAR)
Bruce McLaren (McLaren)
Pedro Rodríguez (BRM)
Jochen Rindt (Brabham)

Bianchi was then killed in a private test at Le Mans in 1969, while Gurney decided to pack it in altogether, so we were down to four until "the two Jackies" took the GT40's final win. The only 1969 race to feature six winners was the British Grand Prix (just over a third of the field!) due to Amon's subsequent departure from Ferrari, but he would be back for the 1970 season. So we have:

Chris Amon (Ferrari, then March)
Jacky Ickx (Brabham, then Ferrari)
Bruce McLaren (McLaren)
Jackie Oliver (BRM)
Pedro Rodríguez (Ferrari, then BRM)
Jochen Rindt (Lotus)

As I mentioned before, Gurney briefly drove for McLaren as well for a few races in 1970, so you can replace Bruce's name for Dan's in the above list. 1971-74 all saw six winners across a season, but due to a lack of full-time drives in some instances and absences for various reasons in others we never got them all in the one Grand Prix. The situation only became even more unlikely as the decade wore on, and it wasn't until the mid-nineties that it looked even remotely possible again, with the 1994 Italian and Portuguese Grands Prix each featuring five Le Mans winners, who were:

Mark Blundell (Tyrrell)
Martin Brundle (McLaren)
Yannick Dalmas (Larrousse)
Bertrand Gachot (Pacific)
Johnny Herbert (Lotus)

In conclusion, this has been yet another pointless exercise in meaningless statistics (or a meaningless exercise in pointless statistics). Thank you. :)
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Re: Unusual F1 Stats

Post by CarloSpace »

Thank you, that was interesting!
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Re: Unusual F1 Stats

Post by good_Ralf »

It's effectively the halfway point of 2018 (11/21 races completed) and Renault, McLaren, Haas and Sauber have all outscored their 2017 tallies already.
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Re: Unusual F1 Stats

Post by Rob Dylan »

When was the last time that team orders actually changed the outcome of a championship's final standings?

Just thinking about what it is that makes me uncomfortable about them, and it's probably that they often feel so unnecessary in context. I feel like they very rarely actually make or break championship - only take away deserved wins from "number two" drivers. In theory they make sense, but I so often think of 2002 Austria and 2010 Germany, where it really didn't feel right for me. Germany is more contested, I know, because Alonso very nearly did win that championship in the end. But my question still stands.

Massa moved over for Räikkönen towards the end of Brazil 2007 to let him when the championship, but even that was inevitable and it would only have been a shock had it not happened in context. Has there been a more recent example where someone wouldn't have won a championship without team orders helping them?
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Re: Unusual F1 Stats

Post by Bobby Doorknobs »

I can't say it's made the difference between first and second since 2007, but that's something we can only say in retrospect, which makes this whole question very problematic because, when you're fighting for the championship, you don't have the benefit of hindsight for the battle ahead.

Take 1999. Salo moved over for Irvine to let him win the German Grand Prix, giving Eddie an extra four points. But when the chequered flag fell at Suzuka, that switching of positions had made no difference to the final result as Irvine was still two points short of Hakkinen in the table. And yet that could easily have gone differently in any of the six remaining races after Hockenheim. For example, a smoother pit stop for Irvine at the Nuerburgring might have seen him on the podium and scoring the points he would have needed to beat Hakkinen, or maybe he would only have finished fourth and it ultimately goes to a tiebreak with Hakkinen still winning. In the end we don't know; any speculation of what could have happened after the fact won't really amount to anything because we can't change the past, but in August 1999 Hakkinen winning the championship was far from being a done deal, and Irvine equally was not in the most comfortable position points-wise. It could have gone either way.

The thing is that the World Drivers' Championship is, paradoxically, a teams championship as well, even if you throw out the Constructors' Championship. You can't win without a good design team, good engineers, mechanics etc. Sometimes it even comes down to the actions of the driver in the other car as well.
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Re: Unusual F1 Stats

Post by WeirdKerr »

Maybe unusual stats isn't the place but a few years back I worked out that in 1986 had Mansell beaten Senna in the Spanish grand prix the extra 3 points would have changed the outcome of the championship....
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Re: Unusual F1 Stats

Post by Bobby Doorknobs »

Kimi Raikkonen now has the longest gap between first and last F1 Grand Prix wins at 15 years and a certain amount of days, surpassing Michael Schumacher's previous record of 14 years and a certain amount of days.

In top-line Grand Prix racing as a whole, this even surpasses Felice Nazzaro's record of 15 years and a smaller number of days (Wikipedia says 2 weeks on the dot) between the 1907 and 1922 French Grands Prix, although that's just going off Grandes Épreuves... and my own memory.

EDIT: Just remembered Louis Chiron! 1928 Italian Grand Prix and 1949 French Grand Prix!
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Re: Unusual F1 Stats

Post by girry »

Rob Dylan wrote:When was the last time that team orders actually changed the outcome of a championship's final standings?

Has there been a more recent example where someone wouldn't have won a championship without team orders helping them?


Hamilton on Kovalainen, Germany 2008.

Pretty sure there was also some instance in 2012 where Webber was instructed to let Vettel pass, but my memory fails me where it was...
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Re: Unusual F1 Stats

Post by girry »

Simtek wrote:Kimi Raikkonen now has the longest gap between first and last F1 Grand Prix wins at 15 years and a certain amount of days, surpassing Michael Schumacher's previous record of 14 years and a certain amount of days.

In top-line Grand Prix racing as a whole, this even surpasses Felice Nazzaro's record of 15 years and a smaller number of days (Wikipedia says 2 weeks on the dot) between the 1907 and 1922 French Grands Prix, although that's just going off Grandes Épreuves... and my own memory.

EDIT: Just remembered Louis Chiron! 1928 Italian Grand Prix and 1949 French Grand Prix!


Yeah, it has to be Chiron when talking about Grands Prix proper.

Though I reckon the record-holder might still be someone else if we consider all races contested with top-line equipment. I know Christian Werner won 1924 Targa Florio in his old days, but am not sure how far early in the 1900's should we go for his first win? How about Louis Wagner or Trintignant?
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Re: Unusual F1 Stats

Post by Rob Dylan »

Though they were both fuel related, Ocon and Magnussen got disqualified for breaking different rules. I had a think about when this last was.

We've had many races with more than one DSQ. The more recent ones are:

- 2011 Australia: both Saubers Pérez and Kobayashi having dodgy rear wings.
- 2007 Canada: Massa and Fisichella leaving the pit lane while the red light was on.
- 2006 Germany: Albers and Monteiro, also for rear wings
- 2005 San Marino: Button and Sato for BAR. Some misdemeanour of no great consequence...
- 2004 Canada: Ralf Schumacher, da Matta, Panis and Montoya all for brake irregularities!

but you have to go all the way back to Australia 2002 to get the last race with multiple disqualifications for more than one reason. Both Arrows cars, Frentzen and Bernoldi, were disqualified for leaving the pit lane with the red light on, and changing to the spare car too late, respectively.

I just looked this up, so it might be wrong.

Citation needed
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Re: Unusual F1 Stats

Post by You-Gee-Eee-Day »

It just occured to me that, as far as I can tell, Williams will be the first team in F1 history to finish 11th in a championship of 10 teams.
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Re: Unusual F1 Stats

Post by Butterfox »

You-Gee-Eee-Day wrote:It just occured to me that, as far as I can tell, Williams will be the first team in F1 history to finish 11th in a championship of 10 teams.

Ah no, Sahara Force India's points tally is officially reduced to 0. So that officially doesn't count.
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Re: Unusual F1 Stats

Post by You-Gee-Eee-Day »

This wrote:
You-Gee-Eee-Day wrote:It just occured to me that, as far as I can tell, Williams will be the first team in F1 history to finish 11th in a championship of 10 teams.

Ah no, Sahara Force India's points tally is officially reduced to 0. So that officially doesn't count.

Officially no, of course, but unofficially, I can't help but giggle when I read that line back to myself.
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Re: Unusual F1 Stats

Post by WeirdKerr »

will the age gap between Kimi and Max be the biggest age gap between consecutive winners?
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Re: Unusual F1 Stats

Post by Bobby Doorknobs »

WeirdKerr wrote:will the age gap between Kimi and Max be the biggest age gap between consecutive winners?

Peter Collins. Juan Manuel Fangio. 1956 French Grand Prix. 1956 British Grand Prix.

Don't know if that's the absolute record, but it immediately came to mind...
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Re: Unusual F1 Stats

Post by Aguvazk »

On these days it's coming the Brazil GP and i was thinking...Massa in 2008 could be WC in his home Gp. Was there another similar case? Maybe in the '50s...
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Re: Unusual F1 Stats

Post by Rob Dylan »

As far as I'm aware, the only time a driver won the F1 championship at their home race was in 1950, when Farina won it.

It's kind of a shame, because it would be amazing if that happened more often. Massa would have been the second.
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Re: Unusual F1 Stats

Post by tBone »

Rob Dylan wrote:As far as I'm aware, the only time a driver won the F1 championship at their home race was in 1950, when Farina won it.

It's kind of a shame, because it would be amazing if that happened more often. Massa would have been the second.

Michael Schumacher was very close in 2002. Raikkonen ran wide a couple of laps before the end of the French Grand Prix, handing Schumacher the win and the title. Would Kimi have kept the lead with Michael in second, he would probably have grabbed the title in the next race, which was the German Grand Prix.
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Re: Unusual F1 Stats

Post by Rob Dylan »

With Lance Stroll now reaching the wise old age of 20, I believe that this is the first F1 race without a teenager on the grid since Abu Dhabi 2014 (the infamous double points race).
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Re: Unusual F1 Stats

Post by UncreativeUsername37 »

This is the first time every driver has been in every race.
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Re: Unusual F1 Stats

Post by FortiWinks »

It will be 158 Grands Prix between Kubica’s last race in Abu Dhabi and Australia 2019 which will put him third on the list for the longest gap between two races.

The drivers who have longer gaps? Jan Lammers and Luca Badoer :badoer:

Not a great omen for him...
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Re: Unusual F1 Stats

Post by dr-baker »

UncreativeUsername37 wrote:This is the first time every driver has been in every race.

If it were not for Super Aguri withdrawing after 4 races, 2008 would share this record for no driver changes.
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Re: Unusual F1 Stats

Post by This Could Be You »

I know it's slightly old news now, but with Gasly off to Red Bull in place of Ricciardo, 2019 will be the first time since 2006 that Red Bull hasn't had an Australian in their driver lineup, and the first time in their history without having a English-speaking (well, as a first language, anyway) driver (unless you count Jaguar and Stewart as the same constructor, in which case the last time no native English speakers drove for them was 1998, one of only two seasons where this is the case, the other being their debut season)
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