Melbourne GP Race discussion

Kuwashima · Post by **Kuwashima** » 28 Mar 2009, 21:31

Righty-oh then all... the actual race is just 8.5 hours away!

Predictions? Comments? Post-mortems?

My thoughts are Brawn to carry the day with the only spoke in the wheel being their reliability due to not enough long run testing in the off-season. Nico could be a dark horse. Of course, Mark will be in a position to win when something will break. Fingers crossed not this time...

Cheers,
Jamie

Alexander · Post by **Alexander** » 28 Mar 2009, 21:42

The Brawn cars are looking pretty fast, but relaibility might indeed ruin their race.
I expect Rosberg and in particular Heidfelt to move up the ranks during the race.
My podium:
A BrawnGP, a Williams and a BMW.

Chilled Phill · Post by **Chilled Phill** » 28 Mar 2009, 22:01

Brawn GP for the win easily if reliability isn't an issue. :lol:

As a follower of the Williams team, I would be pleased with another podium although Nico's practice pace has left me wanting more from this weekend from a Williams perspective. Still, out-qualifying the works team is pretty satisfying.

As a Brit, I can't say I'm disappointed with today's result either with Button on pole but, minus those cheatin' Toyotas, Hamilton at the back is a little worrying. Still, it amuses me somewhat how ITV would've glossed it over somehow if they were still broadcasting the F1. Obviously Jamie, you didn't quite get the full on Lewis-steria (sp?) some of us Brits got but James Allen was clearly enough for any non-Lewis fan to take... :roll:

alvaro3d · Post by **alvaro3d** » 28 Mar 2009, 23:13

I hope Jenson wins this one so Virgin don't quit the sponsorship, they are going to need it.

I don't think reliability is going to be a problem those are Mercedes engines, first race of the year don't think they are going to smoke, maybe Safety Car is going to be an issue eliminating any advantage that Brawn GP might and probably get during the first stint of the race, and Vettel could take advantage of this, while I'm on Vettel reliability probably going to ruin his race.

Race is going to be a sad day for Lewis fans because he is going to be oveertaken by the two Toyotas probably before the first corner so hold thight because that McLaren is a work in progress yet.

Nin13 · Post by **Nin13** » 28 Mar 2009, 23:44

Rubens had done quite well in Q1 and Q2. Actaully I was expecting him to take pole, but anyway dont be surprised if he challenges Button for win.

Watch out at back near NPJ's car, he might take out a few people........... :mrgreen:

Chilled Phill · Post by **Chilled Phill** » 28 Mar 2009, 23:54

Nin13 wrote:Rubens had done quite well in Q1 and Q2. Actaully I was expecting him to take pole, but anyway dont be surprised if he challenges Button for win.

Watch out at back near NPJ's car, he might take out a few people...........

...Or perhaps create a safety car period to Renault advantage again...? :lol:

Cynon · Post by **Cynon** » 29 Mar 2009, 00:48

Chilled Phill wrote:
Nin13 wrote:Rubens had done quite well in Q1 and Q2. Actaully I was expecting him to take pole, but anyway dont be surprised if he challenges Button for win.

Watch out at back near NPJ's car, he might take out a few people...........

...Or perhaps create a safety car period to Renault advantage again...?

That's why he's spinning off in practice and such -- practicing for the inevitable smash into the wall so that Alonso can capitalize on it and get in front during a much needed safety car!:lol:

Also, I expect some first turn shenanigans (heck with that, just plain old shenanigans) from Giancrasho Smashichella again. Possibly a near-barrel roll like he did last year. Oh dear.

Either way Nelson Piquet should be the even-money favorite for Reject of the Year.

Kuwashima · Post by **Kuwashima** » 29 Mar 2009, 04:44

Well, am posting this from my phone trackside at turn 9. Thanks to eveyone for posting. Keep it up! Beautiful weather here, race start just over an hour away now. Busy day - suffice to say tonight's podcast will be worth the wait.
Jamie

nit · Post by **nit** » 29 Mar 2009, 08:05

damn Rubens!!! i hope he up for reject of the race and how he didn't get a drive through penalty for the start i'll never know!!! lucky sod!, poor red bulls :cry:

, and quick note if the rear diffusers are illegel lewis gets the win.

Waris · Post by **Waris** » 29 Mar 2009, 08:25

Oh no, I forgot to wish Webber good luck, and see what's happened to him...

Also, I slept through most of the race, catching only the end (but what an end it was!). I'll watch the re-run this afternoon.

LukeB · Post by **LukeB** » 29 Mar 2009, 08:27

nit wrote:damn Rubens!!! i hope he up for reject of the race and how he didn't get a drive through penalty for the start i'll never know!

Apparently he was given a shunt up the backside by Kovalinein.
Reject of the race for me was Kubica. Clumsy move, not only screwing himself out of a nigh certain podium but takes Vettel with him!

alvaro3d · Post by **alvaro3d** » 29 Mar 2009, 08:42

Reject of the race for me was Kubica. Clumsy move, not only screwing himself out of a nigh certain podium but takes Vettel with him!

I agree bad start of the season for the pole really disappointing

Ferrari was weird, very short stints, maybe that was why Massa was asking for shorter races, and it seems that they switched cars from last year because this time Kimi looses the back of the car and Massa expires :lol:

Nakajima and Piquet auto eliminates themselves again that's two spots for new drivers

Klon · Post by **Klon** » 29 Mar 2009, 08:50

LukeB wrote:
nit wrote:Reject of the race for me was Kubica. Clumsy move, not only screwing himself out of a nigh certain podium but takes Vettel with him!

Nah, I rather think that this was Vettel's fault (like he himself admitted) and therefore if this accident decides the Reject of the Race, the award would have to go to Vettel.

Cynon · Post by **Cynon** » 29 Mar 2009, 09:06

I think Reject of the Race considerations go to Ferrari for going without points in the first round of the World Championship since... guhhh... I don't know, like 20 years or something... I remember the U.S. broadcasters made a big deal out of it last year when initially both Kimi and Felipe's engines crapped out (but then Barrichello was disqualified, and Kimi got the 1 point to keep the streak alive), and this time, the entire team crapped out!

Also, ROTR could go to Piquet for spinning off and then blaming it on the brakes when it's pretty clear that he had cold tires, didn't know what the F he was doing and decided to go build a sandcastle in the first turn kitty litter. His excuse over the team radio was ... bollocks.

One of the better dry races in the past few years. I think the only thing that would have made this race better is if Super Aguri... ahem... SOOPA AGURI was still on the grid and if it had rained.

Melbourne seems to be a chaotic race these past few years, last year was utter carnage and this year was the same way.

The rear diffuser problem... I have only one thing to say to it...

Ferrari wrote:Ban anything that's more creative than what we can come up with!

Obviously not a verbatim quote there, but that's what I think Ferrari's stink is. Red Bull just want free wins that they don't have to earn, which I think puts the sport in disrepute, and why nobody's complained to the FIA about Red Bull's complaints not being within the spirit of the rules (seeing as the car and the drivers are competitive enough to earn wins the hard way) I find also disgraceful.

Sadly, seeing as Ferrari are complaining about the diffuser, I don't think Brawn will keep the win. Seeing as, of course, whenever Ferrari take a case against the FIA, as was mentioned on a previous podcast, a higher power is at work and Ferrari comes out winning. Ferrari, Red Bull, and whoever else is appealing needs to be slapped by the FIA for wasting their time with this stupid appeal with a 10 place grid penalty. However I don't think Jamie and Enoch would agree with that seeing as Mark Webber would get sent to the back of the grid! :lol:

End Rant.

- Cooper of Chicago
Message not paid by Rod Blagojevich seeing as he thinks he's the new Gandhi.

Dom · Post by **Dom** » 29 Mar 2009, 10:30

I see the stewards are back to last year's muppetry. Vettel's been given a 10 slot grid penalty for a pretty 50/50 collision with Kubica and Trulli was penalised 25 seconds for overtaking under the safety car. I can understand the Trulli decision but 2s seconds seems a tad harsh considering the whole field was bunched up under the safety car - surely they could have just swapped third and fourth over to correct it? As it is he's dropped from 3rd to 13th. Vettel's also been fined £50 000 for "continuing to drive with a dangerously damaged car". Which I thought was a rather cunning ploy to scrape a couple of points.

Debaser · Post by **Debaser** » 29 Mar 2009, 10:48

The stewards demoted Trulli and punished Vettel for a racing accident.They deserve ROTR,especially as they pushed Bourdais up to 8th despite being slowestof everyone and being beaten by a rookie.Then again Nakajima crashed out,Ferrari sucked so there's plenty of contenders.

Stewart · Post by **Stewart** » 29 Mar 2009, 11:32

Seems a shame to make my first post here a negative one, but I feel pretty annoyed with F1 at the moment.
The FIA have turned the cars into badly proportioned monstrosities in an attempt to improve the racing, and yet the stewards penalise drivers who crash when they actually do try to race.
The handling of the SC after Nakajima's crash was dreadful.
The two-compound rule really seems to have increased the overtaking, but it's so artificial that I just don't care. One car storming up to another at 3 seconds per lap and breezing past them is not exciting.
As for KERS, the sooner it is banned, the better.

Anyway, congratulations to Button on a well-deserved victory. Hopefully they'll be allowed to keep their diffusers and he'll be a strong title contender.

nit · Post by **nit** » 29 Mar 2009, 11:33

Bourdais should get the lucky bastard title for this race for managing to get into the points

donald29 · Post by **donald29** » 29 Mar 2009, 15:06

I think Mark Webber should get ROTR. Desperately unlucky, but no where at his home race once again.

Yannick · Post by **Yannick** » 29 Mar 2009, 18:45

Hello f1rejects, thank you for setting up this forum.
The Zsolt Baumgartner interview is the greatest feature you've had so far on the podcast. I mean ... what a build-up through all these years!

And now: the most controversial point of the race: penalties!

Toyota have done incredibly well in their chase from the back, both cars having finished further above than world champion Lewis Hamilton, who had to do the same task in the race. Flexible wings are a safety issue, so I wouldn't want to doubt the stewards' decision on that. But it was Glock who showed some impressive moves in trying to pass Alonso: the one in which he spun and the one in which he finally made it past. On German TV, he said that the Renault's aerodynamics caused more dirty air than any of the other cars. Might that be intentional? Might that be the reason why the car looks as ugly as it does?

The Vettel-Kubica incident that caused the final safety car period: it looked like a rookie error from Vettel. Next time, he'll know better and let the quicker car pass while just sliding around himself with 2 laps to go. And Kubica was a little too impatient.
But for the stewards to award Vettel with a 10 place grid penalty for next race, just because they themselves missed blackflagging him when he went past the pitlane entrance on 3 wheels, is completely ridiculous. The fine, well, he should have at least stopped in the pits, if not right away.

Kudos to Brawn GP for being the first team to win their debut race in F1 since Jody Scheckter won in Buenos Aires in 1977 for Walter Wolf Racing, and for being the first team to score a 1-2-finish in their debut race since Juan-Manuel Fangio and Karl Kling won in Reims in 1954 for the Mercedes works team.
Does it bother Mercedes that their new customer team has egalized their historical works team's record? I don't think so.
But if Brawn GP win again next time around, they can actually beat them!

See you after Sepang
Y.

Yannick · Post by **Yannick** » 29 Mar 2009, 19:13

Oh and I must add: isn't this win the sweetest and most splendid way for Jenson Button to give a reply to the prestigious award that F1 Rejects have presented him with last year?

donald29 · Post by **donald29** » 29 Mar 2009, 20:36

Listening to your Melbourne Sunday podcast right now, and whilst I agree Vettel didn't deserve a 10 place penalty for the racing incident, I think he had it coming to him due to his willingness to take the responsibility so quickly.

alvaro3d · Post by **alvaro3d** » 30 Mar 2009, 01:40

What a pick for Reject of the race this guys always surprise me

Bort · Post by **Bort** » 30 Mar 2009, 01:43

The stewards treatment of Vettel is an outrage. Excessive punishment for a regular racing incident.

Due to their far too restrictive rulings and the cars themselves being so fragile and lightweight, we will never again see the days of racing such as the Villeneuve/Arnoux final laps at Dijon in 1979.
Aggressive driver against driver. The banging together of wheels in sheer desperation. Great racing.

If you don't know what I am talking about, click here and enjoy real Formula One racing... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1p25JO9Q4w

RejectSteve · Post by **RejectSteve** » 30 Mar 2009, 03:29

Bort wrote:The stewards treatment of Vettel is an outrage. Excessive punishment for a regular racing incident.

Due to their far too restrictive rulings and the cars themselves being so fragile and lightweight, we will never again see the days of racing such as the Villeneuve/Arnoux final laps at Dijon in 1979.
Aggressive driver against driver. The banging together of wheels in sheer desperation. Great racing.

If you don't know what I am talking about, click here and enjoy real Formula One racing... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1p25JO9Q4w

Real F1 racing, where the results were determined on the circuit as opposed to race control or by the Court of Appeal. Back in '79, none of the teams protested the Arrows A2 'buzzbomb.'

I agree with your opinion about Vettel's penalty. In retrospect, he should have let Kubica pass but in the heat of the moment that was just a normal, blameless racing accident. When Vettel lost rear traction under braking, the shunt was on the cards. If he intended to clatter into Kubica, he could have just did what Coulthard did two years ago to Wurz and just run over top of the cockpit... wait, isn't DC a Red Bull Racing consultant now?

wombat · Post by **wombat** » 30 Mar 2009, 03:59

Why did they penalise Vettel

Both Vettel and Kibica were mobile after the incident. There was no one involved in the accident that took them out but themselves. Poor driving - both deserve rejects award

Look at Rubens - lost his wing and finished second

Webber needs an award for consistently running last

Bort · Post by **Bort** » 30 Mar 2009, 04:17

wombat wrote:Webber needs an award for consistently running last

Perhaps if Webber comes in anywhere above last in a race, everyone still racing in a position behind him will get honorary Reject statuses.

Robbie · Post by **Robbie** » 30 Mar 2009, 05:59

LukeB wrote:Apparently he was given a shunt up the backside by Kovalainen.

So Rubens is trying to emulate Max?

*Announcer voice*
Tune in tomorrow for the Rubens and Max Show, live from their dingy London dungeon!

ZBF1 · Post by **ZBF1** » 30 Mar 2009, 12:16

was a good race

shocked that brawn won (NOT!) and shocked that Pique crashed (NOT!) shocked that trulli made a tit of himself on the podium thinking that the stewards hadnt noticed him overtaking hamilton under yellows (again NOT!)

however it was a good race with OVERTAKING, now that i am shocked at lol

Post by **Nuppiz** » 30 Mar 2009, 12:29

It's nice to see such a shift in team balance and big increase in overtaking that we witnessed now. I was especially surprised of Brawn GP's performance, even if their off-season times were promising. Though, as a Finn, I'm a bit disappointed with Kovalainen and Räikkönen, but at least the half-Finn Rosberg scored points again in Australia!

Salamander · Post by **Salamander** » 30 Mar 2009, 13:22

A decent enough race in my opinion. There was quite a bit of action and some good passing, especially towards the end. Top two couldn't have gone better, it's great to see Button and Barichello back at the front again, after being being in the red-headed stepchild that was Honda in 2007/2008. It's also good to see the Toyota's are finally getting into a place where they are a genuine threat for wins and podiums, though whether they can maintain this remains to be seen. And credit where credit is due; I may not like Hamilton, but he did indeed drive a bloody good race to finish 3rd in a car that I would've thought lucky to finish 8th.

As for the penalty dished out to Vettel, well, I can't say I didn't expect it, what with the FIA's position on crashes being that all of them are completely avoidable. It doesn't make it any less unjustified, though, and something has to be done about this stance before drivers stop passing each other altogether out of fear of crashing.

SuperAguri · Post by **SuperAguri** » 30 Mar 2009, 13:46

The result was great, Ferrari not scoring any points, Piquet going out with 'brake failure', Kubica's face as he walked back to the pits, Vettel trying to go around to score some points with a obvious broken car, Nakajima doing a typical Japanese driver error and having a close personal meeting with the wall, Force India getting close but still not scoring any points, Hamilton doing well to go from the back to 4thish in a car that looked slow, I am sure he would have driven the Force India car to a win 20 seconds ahead of button and finially Trulli going from a pitlane start to 3rd.

I hope Trulli does win his appeal, as if hamilton slowed right down, then what was Trulli meant to do stop and wait to get Race Control to say "Okay pass hamilton..."? Still I hope Ferrari score nul points in Malaysia too.

Nin13 · Post by **Nin13** » 30 Mar 2009, 14:23

Great race, I say. Bit dissapointed with what Barichello was doing but still great day for Brawn GP.
Close racing and definately more overtaking as I saw it, that was encouraging...........

ImissJORDAN · Post by **ImissJORDAN** » 30 Mar 2009, 18:09

Regarding the Vettel-Kubica incident, I don't think you can really blame either for the crash. It's a case of them both racing in the last few laps, where you'd expect aggression, but where backing out is not an option. Maybe a bit of co-operation or submission would have served both of them well, but the penalty just for Vettel, indeed a penalty at all, to my mind, is just ridiculous.

AndreaModa · Post by **AndreaModa** » 30 Mar 2009, 18:15

aah but i was under the impression that the penalty to Vettel was simply because he carried on driving round with a heavily damaged car and only 3 wheels! The rules clearly state if the car is damaged significantly then the driver must pull over immediately. Otherwise its a threat to the other drivers going round. I imagine if the incident had been halfway through and he'd done that then he would have been black flagged for sure if his team didn't call him in.

but i thought with all the antics with barichello and the first corner mayhem that the officals were pretty lenient with their decisions on this one

hopefully they've learnt their lessons from last year and will let a bit more slip through the net this season...

here's hoping anyway!

ImissJORDAN · Post by **ImissJORDAN** » 30 Mar 2009, 18:34

AndreaModa wrote:aah but i was under the impression that the penalty to Vettel was simply because he carried on driving round with a heavily damaged car and only 3 wheels! The rules clearly state if the car is damaged significantly then the driver must pull over immediately.

Really? As far as I could make out, and as far as autosport are describing it, the penalty was very much for the incident with Kubica. I think only the subsequent fine was for attemptedly continuing.

AndreaModa wrote:but i thought with all the antics with barichello and the first corner mayhem that the officals were pretty lenient with their decisions on this one

here's hoping anyway!

Yeah, I'm glad they didn't dish out penalties for that one, because frankly, if the confrontations were isolated, both Kovalainen, Barrichello and Webber would probably have hit the cars on the inside without help from anyone behind, because then you'd have to punish all of them, and the biggest culprit had to retire anyway. As it was, Kovalainen helped Barrichello into the side of Webber, who himself blindsided Heidfeld. Penalties would either have to be non-existent or universal. So I'm glad they weren't applied there.

I'm also glad they weren't applied for Barrichello vs. Raikkonen, because in the end, nothing came out of it, and it was only a mistake from Rubens, and then a bit of rubbing at low speed. Toleration of these things which are not blatant cheating, merely mistakes, would lead to a better sport.

AndreaModa · Post by **AndreaModa** » 30 Mar 2009, 18:41

ImissJORDAN wrote:Really? As far as I could make out, and as far as autosport are describing it, the penalty was very much for the incident with Kubica. I think only the subsequent fine was for attemptedly continuing.

well i haven't actually read anything further on the subject i confess, it just seemed to me that the most logical explanation for the penalty was that, seeing as Kubica has escaped much more lightly. As you say in an incident such as that penalties need to be universal or none at all and just penalising vettel purely for that incident is harsh, especially as he still had the inside line to an extent.

Ide · Post by **Ide** » 30 Mar 2009, 18:54

I'm also in the camp that sees the Vettel/Kubica incident as a 50/50.
I'm really surprised at the amount of people on other F1 forums blaming Vettel wholly for the collision!
Yes, I would say that Sebastian should have let Robert through since Robert was much faster, but he's a racing driver and you wouldn't expect him just to let Robert through without a fight. Similarly, Robert should have known he was faster than Sebastian, and could have easily passed him somewhere else around the track, I think it was just two over-eager drivers having a coming-together - nothing more than that. I'd understand the fine for Sebastian for the damaged car incident, but the penalty for the collision is just plain stupid.

I also think that Brawn has some speed in reserve. It didn't seem like Jenson was pushing terribly hard throughout the race, he pulled the initial 5 seconds over Vettel very quickly and then seemed to calm down after that. Maybe they don't want Max to see that the diffuser is making the car too fast, and for the FIA to ban it! Reminds me of the '78 Swedish GP with the Brabham Fan Car, of course Watson was allegedly told to slow down to not make the car look too good... that didn't work

Kuwashima · Post by **Kuwashima** » 30 Mar 2009, 22:34

AndreaModa, I believe the penalty to Vettel was for the accident.

The GBP50,000 fine to Red Bull was for allowing him to circulate with 3 wheels!

BB01 · Post by **BB01** » 31 Mar 2009, 01:53

It seemed to me that it was a 50/50 incident, too. Kubica did give enough room but left absolutely no room for error and i think it was only a very small error that vettel made. I think vettel ran a little wide because he got spooked as kubica turned in and he clipped the curb. So, yeah, i think it was harsh to penalise him for the accident. I reckon it was a bit harsh to ping him for trying desperately to finish the race, too. Surely you have to give him credit for trying. It seemed like a mix between 3-wheel Gilles and guys like Sir Jack who used to push the car to the finish. I thought it showed good determination and it couldn't be seen as dangerous or anything.