2018 Silly Season

The place for speaking your mind on current goings-on in F1
User avatar
This Could Be You
Posts: 1373
Joined: 05 Jun 2016, 16:40
Location: Somewhere else

Re: 2018 Silly Season

Post by This Could Be You »

There goes Honda's "low-pressure development environment" at Toro Rosso... I bet McLaren and Sauber are laughing now- in a couple of years they could be in the upper midfield!
Your Signature Here

Named after HRT, now on HRT
User avatar
good_Ralf
Posts: 2681
Joined: 06 Jun 2013, 13:14
Location: Hitchin, UK

Re: 2018 Silly Season

Post by good_Ralf »

I'm not so sure McLaren will recover as quickly as some are expecting once they make the switch. I assume McLaren will have designed their 2018 chassis around carrying a Honda engine and not a Renault one. When they changed to Renault, Team Enstone/Lotus designed their 2016 car with a Mercedes power-unit in mind, and look how their season went (to give them the benefit of the doubt, they didn't develop the car much that season anyway).
I'm not saying this is certainly going to happen, but I feel the same three teams will continue to lockout the podium thoughout next year (and it might be just two teams from '19 onwards if Red Bull get Honda engines like the ones they've built so far). Not to be a pessimist, if the works Renault team continue to improve and the engine deal works for McLaren we could have at least 5 teams with competitive cars (might've said the same thing last year though!).
Check out the position of the sun on 2 August at 20:08 in my garden

Allard Kalff in 1994 wrote:OH!! Schumacher in the wall! Right in front of us, Michael Schumacher is in the wall! He's hit the pitwall, he c... Ah, it's Jos Verstappen.
User avatar
mario
Posts: 8091
Joined: 31 Oct 2009, 17:13

Re: 2018 Silly Season

Post by mario »

East Londoner wrote:

Can't help but feel McLaren have played a blinder here. Red Bull are likely stranded with that horrendous lump, and
unless Honda somehow have a massive turnaround in performance ala Honda in CART between 1994 and 1995 (which isn't going to happen), we might be seeing the (temporary?) end of Red Bull as frontrunners.

If I were Dale or Max, I'd be lining up another seat as soon as possible. I can't see how Honda will be any different with Red Bull than they have been with McLaren, they're still miles behind Ferrari/Mercedes/Renault in the development race.

Whilst the relationship between Red Bull and Renault has been rather strained in recent years, it's still a big surprise to see things break down completely (especially since it is being suggested that Renault had initially agreed to sell engines to Red Bull for 2019 and 2020, only to suddenly go back on that agreement).

If any party has played a blinder though, it could be argued that it is Renault - they've got a driver that they wanted at a fairly minimal cost to themselves and arranged a partnership with a major team who will be paying them for the privilege of their engines, whilst managing to get themselves out of a rancorous relationship with another team. Out of the three parties, it looks like they might be the ones who gain the most out of this deal...

On another note, it is worth noting that both Verstappen and Ricciardo are due to be out of contract for 2019 - so Red Bull now face the situation where they'd be forced to go with Honda and potentially risk losing both of their current drivers at the same time. The only consolation is the fact that the engine rules change in 2021 anyway, so they'd potentially be stuck with the Honda power unit for only two years (and, by then, you would hope that Honda might finally have made some decent improvements).
Martin Brundle, on watching a replay of Grosjean spinning:
"The problem with Grosjean is that he want to take a look back at the corner he's just exited"
User avatar
CoopsII
Posts: 4673
Joined: 15 Dec 2011, 09:33
Location: Starkiller Base Debris

Re: 2018 Silly Season

Post by CoopsII »

All these changes are jolly exciting. I wonder if the PR department at Red Bull is copying and pasting the old pages of script McLaren came up with, what, three years ago(?) to save themselves some time?
Just For One Day...
IceG
Posts: 681
Joined: 06 Oct 2011, 17:24
Location: London (the one in England)

Re: 2018 Silly Season

Post by IceG »

The Sky team were debating the "last available seat" at Williams during FP1; they offered up
- Kubica
- Di Resta
- Palmer
- Massa

What about Kvyat?
IceG
Posts: 681
Joined: 06 Oct 2011, 17:24
Location: London (the one in England)

Re: 2018 Silly Season

Post by IceG »

And Renault seem to be spinning this very well with comments like "McLaren will be the reference" - suggesting that RBR are (or will not be) next season.

They seem to have got a great chassis partner and a cheap driver while getting rid of half of a whining organisation with the other half to go for 2019.

All in all RBR seem to be the losers at the moment...
User avatar
CoopsII
Posts: 4673
Joined: 15 Dec 2011, 09:33
Location: Starkiller Base Debris

Re: 2018 Silly Season

Post by CoopsII »

IceG wrote:The Sky team were debating the "last available seat" at Williams during FP1; they offered up
- Kubica
- Di Resta
- Palmer
- Massa

What about Kvyat?

Expected to stay put at Toro Rosso. In this currently fast-shifting landscape he actually represents stability and a benchmark for any newbie.
Just For One Day...
User avatar
Ataxia
Not Important
Posts: 6860
Joined: 23 Jun 2010, 12:47
Location: Sneed's Feed & Seed (formerly Chuck's)
Contact:

Re: 2018 Silly Season

Post by Ataxia »

CoopsII wrote:All these changes are jolly exciting. I wonder if the PR department at Red Bull is copying and pasting the old pages of script McLaren came up with, what, three years ago(?) to save themselves some time?


Can't wait for Red Bull's switch to dynamic, predatory grey...
Mitch Hedberg wrote:I want to be a race car passenger: just a guy who bugs the driver. Say man, can I turn on the radio? You should slow down. Why do we gotta keep going in circles? Man, you really like Tide...
User avatar
FMecha
Posts: 5145
Joined: 04 Jan 2011, 16:18
Location: Open road
Contact:

Re: 2018 Silly Season

Post by FMecha »

PSN ID: FMecha_EXE | FMecha on GT Sport
User avatar
Aislabie
Posts: 1941
Joined: 14 Feb 2016, 11:06

Re: 2018 Silly Season

Post by Aislabie »

IceG wrote:The Sky team were debating the "last available seat" at Williams during FP1; they offered up
- Kubica
- Di Resta
- Palmer
- Massa

What about Kvyat?

I'd also throw out Nasr and Maldonado as outside bets.
User avatar
tommykl
Posts: 7062
Joined: 07 Apr 2010, 17:10
Location: Banbury, Oxfordshire, UK

Re: 2018 Silly Season

Post by tommykl »

Aislabie wrote:
IceG wrote:The Sky team were debating the "last available seat" at Williams during FP1; they offered up
- Kubica
- Di Resta
- Palmer
- Massa

What about Kvyat?

I'd also throw out Nasr and Maldonado as outside bets.

Canal+ seemed to indicate that Lance Stroll's entourage is willing to finance an Interlagos test for Kubica. Taking the Strolls' money and Rosberg's influence, the cards seem to be falling in Bobby K's direction, but I'll remain cautious for now.
kevinbotz wrote:Cantonese is a completely nonsensical f*cking alien language masquerading as some grossly bastardised form of Chinese

Gonzo wrote:Wasn't there some sort of communisim in the East part of Germany?
User avatar
mario
Posts: 8091
Joined: 31 Oct 2009, 17:13

Re: 2018 Silly Season

Post by mario »


Horner wasn't exactly subtle about his hints, and Andy Palmer (the CEO of Aston Martin) mentioned that Aston Martin were considering the possibility of building an engine if the 2021 regulations were to their liking (though also with the caveat that it would be dependent on the cost being acceptable to them too). I would be a bit surprised if that did happen, but I wouldn't rule out the possibility that we might at least see Aston Martin step up their advertising efforts in F1.
Martin Brundle, on watching a replay of Grosjean spinning:
"The problem with Grosjean is that he want to take a look back at the corner he's just exited"
User avatar
Ataxia
Not Important
Posts: 6860
Joined: 23 Jun 2010, 12:47
Location: Sneed's Feed & Seed (formerly Chuck's)
Contact:

Re: 2018 Silly Season

Post by Ataxia »

mario wrote:

Horner wasn't exactly subtle about his hints, and Andy Palmer (the CEO of Aston Martin) mentioned that Aston Martin were considering the possibility of building an engine if the 2021 regulations were to their liking (though also with the caveat that it would be dependent on the cost being acceptable to them too). I would be a bit surprised if that did happen, but I wouldn't rule out the possibility that we might at least see Aston Martin step up their advertising efforts in F1.


Well...
Mitch Hedberg wrote:I want to be a race car passenger: just a guy who bugs the driver. Say man, can I turn on the radio? You should slow down. Why do we gotta keep going in circles? Man, you really like Tide...
User avatar
FullMetalJack
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 6269
Joined: 31 Mar 2009, 15:32
Location: Some place far away. Yes, that'll do.

Re: 2018 Silly Season

Post by FullMetalJack »

IceG wrote:The Sky team were debating the "last available seat" at Williams during FP1; they offered up
- Kubica
- Di Resta
- Palmer
- Massa

What about Kvyat?


Pedro de la Rosa's due another comeback...
I like the way Snrub thinks!
1993DonningtonNo1Mk2
Posts: 120
Joined: 24 Mar 2016, 22:37
Location: Stevenage, Hertfordshire, England
Contact:

Re: 2018 Silly Season

Post by 1993DonningtonNo1Mk2 »

Rumour has it Brendon Hartley is on Toro Rosso's list, not just racing for them in Austin, I think he'd be better off in Indycar Racing with Chip Ganassi Racing.
User avatar
Ataxia
Not Important
Posts: 6860
Joined: 23 Jun 2010, 12:47
Location: Sneed's Feed & Seed (formerly Chuck's)
Contact:

Re: 2018 Silly Season

Post by Ataxia »

IceG wrote:The Sky team were debating the "last available seat" at Williams during FP1; they offered up
- Kubica
- Di Resta
- Palmer
- Massa

What about Kvyat?


Since then, Kubica's done a test with Williams' 2014 car, which was apparently "quite successful". There should be the scope for correlation between runs that Stroll and di Resta have done in it to help influence the decision.

Wehrlein's not quite as impossible as suggested previously; although Martini would prefer a driver who's 25+ for promotional reasons, there's a chance that keeping di Resta on as the reserve driver would suffice - should Williams be interested.

Palmer's probably got no chance, considering he's been entirely useless (and has been comprehensively beaten by a driver Williams cut loose seven years ago).

Kubica, if he can demonstrate full fitness, is the only real option with star quality. Massa's got nothing left in the tank, di Resta is distinctly average and although Wehrlein could be an option, I'm hearing that Ericsson's position in Sauber isn't quite as certain as expected.
Mitch Hedberg wrote:I want to be a race car passenger: just a guy who bugs the driver. Say man, can I turn on the radio? You should slow down. Why do we gotta keep going in circles? Man, you really like Tide...
1993DonningtonNo1Mk2
Posts: 120
Joined: 24 Mar 2016, 22:37
Location: Stevenage, Hertfordshire, England
Contact:

Re: 2018 Silly Season

Post by 1993DonningtonNo1Mk2 »

Ataxia wrote:
IceG wrote:The Sky team were debating the "last available seat" at Williams during FP1; they offered up
- Kubica
- Di Resta
- Palmer
- Massa

What about Kvyat?


Since then, Kubica's done a test with Williams' 2014 car, which was apparently "quite successful". There should be the scope for correlation between runs that Stroll and di Resta have done in it to help influence the decision.

Wehrlein's not quite as impossible as suggested previously; although Martini would prefer a driver who's 25+ for promotional reasons, there's a chance that keeping di Resta on as the reserve driver would suffice - should Williams be interested.

Palmer's probably got no chance, considering he's been entirely useless (and has been comprehensively beaten by a driver Williams cut loose seven years ago).

Kubica, if he can demonstrate full fitness, is the only real option with star quality. Massa's got nothing left in the tank, di Resta is distinctly average and although Wehrlein could be an option, I'm hearing that Ericsson's position in Sauber isn't quite as certain as expected.


Hard to argue against Kubica, his fitness aside.
User avatar
Dj_bereta
Posts: 1513
Joined: 30 Aug 2009, 15:55

Re: 2018 Silly Season

Post by Dj_bereta »

My prediction:

Williams:
Stroll
Kubica
Werhlein as third driver driving in some free practice sessions

Toro Rosso:
Gasly
Hartley
Matsushita as third driver driving in some free practise sessions

Sauber
Leclerc
Giovinazzi
Waiting for Lotus hiring Johnny Cecotto jr.
User avatar
mario
Posts: 8091
Joined: 31 Oct 2009, 17:13

Re: 2018 Silly Season

Post by mario »

So, with the announcement that Verstappen is signing a deal with Red Bull through to 2020, it sounds as if Horner is indeed acting on the comments he made a while ago about building the team around Verstappen. If Hamilton signs a long term deal at Mercedes too, which seems to be what people expect when his current contract expires at the end of 2018, it sounds as if the current top three teams are going to have their lead drivers locked in for quite a long time. http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/41699886
Martin Brundle, on watching a replay of Grosjean spinning:
"The problem with Grosjean is that he want to take a look back at the corner he's just exited"
User avatar
Rob Dylan
Posts: 3477
Joined: 18 May 2014, 15:34
Location: Andy Warhol's basement

Re: 2018 Silly Season

Post by Rob Dylan »

With Red Bull signing Verstappen, it looks like Ferrari are the only ones whose drivers might be less solid in immediate years. With the kind of mentality they operate, it very much depends on whether Ferrari build a decent car next year as to whether Sebastian will be patient enough to stay with them a little longer.

I do think it's a little unfair to Bottas that he's had a one year deal, and then another one-year deal for 2018. Post-summer notwithstanding, he's had a pretty solid season and could honestly finish runner-up this year if things go well in the remaining races. But his seat is definitely not safe, and Mercedes are operating with the intention of dropping him with the drop of a hat the moment someone more successful comes along. That's motor racing, I suppose. But Bottas has been way better than Frentzen was in '97, and won races from the get-go, unlike Barrichello who took about three years to get winning more regularly on merit. He's definitely been one of the better number 2s in recent years, and it's a shame that he could be cast out whenever he's not needed anymore.
Murray Walker at the 1997 Austrian Grand Prix wrote:The other [Stewart] driver, who nobody's been paying attention to, because he's disappointing, is Jan Magnussen.
Felipe Nasr - the least forgettable F1 driver!
User avatar
mario
Posts: 8091
Joined: 31 Oct 2009, 17:13

Re: 2018 Silly Season

Post by mario »

Rob Dylan wrote:With Red Bull signing Verstappen, it looks like Ferrari are the only ones whose drivers might be less solid in immediate years. With the kind of mentality they operate, it very much depends on whether Ferrari build a decent car next year as to whether Sebastian will be patient enough to stay with them a little longer.

I do think it's a little unfair to Bottas that he's had a one year deal, and then another one-year deal for 2018. Post-summer notwithstanding, he's had a pretty solid season and could honestly finish runner-up this year if things go well in the remaining races. But his seat is definitely not safe, and Mercedes are operating with the intention of dropping him with the drop of a hat the moment someone more successful comes along. That's motor racing, I suppose. But Bottas has been way better than Frentzen was in '97, and won races from the get-go, unlike Barrichello who took about three years to get winning more regularly on merit. He's definitely been one of the better number 2s in recent years, and it's a shame that he could be cast out whenever he's not needed anymore.

To some extent, Vettel might be in a situation where it is difficult for him to jump ship elsewhere even if he wanted to, not dissimilar to the situation Alonso seemed to find himself in at times when he was at Ferrari.

If, as some are speculating, Hamilton does extend his contract until 2020, that ties up one seat at Mercedes and would put Vettel into a difficult position if he wanted to move there - he'd be taking on a competitive driver who would have been established at the team for a long time, making him a tough prospect that Vettel might not want to take on.

Over at Red Bull, we know that Verstappen is now going to be locked into that team until 2020 and, going by some of the comments Horner has made in the past, the team are giving Verstappen the opportunity to build the team around him over the coming years. Marko might still have a soft spot for Vettel, but the rest of the management at the team seem to be betting on Verstappen becoming the focal point of the team for the long term, and that is something that could make it rather difficult for Vettel to come back to Red Bull.
Martin Brundle, on watching a replay of Grosjean spinning:
"The problem with Grosjean is that he want to take a look back at the corner he's just exited"
User avatar
Rob Dylan
Posts: 3477
Joined: 18 May 2014, 15:34
Location: Andy Warhol's basement

Re: 2018 Silly Season

Post by Rob Dylan »

mario wrote:Over at Red Bull, we know that Verstappen is now going to be locked into that team until 2020 and, going by some of the comments Horner has made in the past, the team are giving Verstappen the opportunity to build the team around him over the coming years. Marko might still have a soft spot for Vettel, but the rest of the management at the team seem to be betting on Verstappen becoming the focal point of the team for the long term, and that is something that could make it rather difficult for Vettel to come back to Red Bull.

The concept of a Verstappen-Vettel lineup is too good to resist. Although I think Ricciardo is a stronger driver than maybe even both when considering his form since 2014, I would love to see a proper intra-team battle like that. I don't know where that would leave Ricciardo if it hypothetically happened - maybe taking Bottas' place, or joining a rising team like Renault would be an option.

This year's promised Vettel-Hamilton championship did end up being a bit of a damp squib, though, did it not? Personally I'm not a fan of either of them, but the summer break does seem to have killed the championship fight stone-dead. And this was a season promising to show up the Hamilton-Rosberg rivalry as insignificant.
Murray Walker at the 1997 Austrian Grand Prix wrote:The other [Stewart] driver, who nobody's been paying attention to, because he's disappointing, is Jan Magnussen.
Felipe Nasr - the least forgettable F1 driver!
User avatar
mario
Posts: 8091
Joined: 31 Oct 2009, 17:13

Re: 2018 Silly Season

Post by mario »

Rob Dylan wrote:
mario wrote:Over at Red Bull, we know that Verstappen is now going to be locked into that team until 2020 and, going by some of the comments Horner has made in the past, the team are giving Verstappen the opportunity to build the team around him over the coming years. Marko might still have a soft spot for Vettel, but the rest of the management at the team seem to be betting on Verstappen becoming the focal point of the team for the long term, and that is something that could make it rather difficult for Vettel to come back to Red Bull.

The concept of a Verstappen-Vettel lineup is too good to resist. Although I think Ricciardo is a stronger driver than maybe even both when considering his form since 2014, I would love to see a proper intra-team battle like that. I don't know where that would leave Ricciardo if it hypothetically happened - maybe taking Bottas' place, or joining a rising team like Renault would be an option.

This year's promised Vettel-Hamilton championship did end up being a bit of a damp squib, though, did it not? Personally I'm not a fan of either of them, but the summer break does seem to have killed the championship fight stone-dead. And this was a season promising to show up the Hamilton-Rosberg rivalry as insignificant.

It might be appealing, but with both of those drivers ostensibly tied into different teams for a number of years, it looks unlikely that they will become team mates in the near future.

One thing that I recall is that Vettel has hinted in the past that he might take an early retirement from the sport, similar to what Rosberg has done, and by 2020 Vettel would be 33 and coming up on his 13th season in the sport (14 if you include the free practise sessions he took part in for BMW-Sauber back in 2006).

I think it is more likely that he would continue for a few more years - he would probably still be able to command a seat at a top team - but given he has discussed that option, I wouldn't completely rule out the possibility that Vettel might take that early retirement from the sport in 2020.

With regards to Ricciardo, we might see him cropping up at one of the other major teams in the near future - Marko did make a comment about Ricciardo being on the market for 2019 (his contract ends next year). Mercedes would potentially be the more likely target, as I think that Ferrari are more likely to try to line up Leclerc and Giovinazzi for the future - it gives them two potential strong long term candidates - and I get the impression that Hamilton might be more receptive to the idea than Vettel (the latter would inevitably invite questions about his form the last time they lined up against each other).

As an aside, I agree that what had looked like a tight fight to the end with the prospect for fortunes swinging back and forth has just suddenly melted away. It does almost feel as if Vettel and Ferrari went for broke, and broke is what they've ended up as, whilst Hamilton and Mercedes took the slightly more cautious approach and have just kept accumulating points and steadily ratcheting up that pressure on Ferrari.

The irony is that, if anything, Vettel in some ways might have been the favourite after the summer break and his performance in Spa, given that many expected Mercedes to comfortably win in Spa at a race where Ferrari appeared to have a slight advantage instead.
Martin Brundle, on watching a replay of Grosjean spinning:
"The problem with Grosjean is that he want to take a look back at the corner he's just exited"
User avatar
girry
Posts: 835
Joined: 31 May 2012, 19:43

Re: 2018 Silly Season

Post by girry »

I could see a premature Vettel retirement possibly happening only should he win another WDC in the near future.

Until that, I think he has too much to prove to leave the sport.
when you're dead people start listening
User avatar
Rob Dylan
Posts: 3477
Joined: 18 May 2014, 15:34
Location: Andy Warhol's basement

Re: 2018 Silly Season

Post by Rob Dylan »

giraurd wrote:I could see a premature Vettel retirement possibly happening only should he win another WDC in the near future.

Until that, I think he has too much to prove to leave the sport.

I must say I agree more with this. Too much went his way in his successful years, and he hasn't triumphed over real adversity the way we've seen the real greats do. And as he gets older, the more similarities I see between Sebastian and Fernando's personalities. I see that an unsuccessful Vettel would end up staying in Formula 1 well past his sell-by date, still trying for that final championship, or that final win, or that final podium. If he turned around and won the 2018 championship and fought well for it, I could see him comfortable in an earlier retirement. But he definitely has a hunger to prove that may be costly to him in the future. I hope for his sake that he learns from the mistakes of Alonso and knows when his time is up one day.
Murray Walker at the 1997 Austrian Grand Prix wrote:The other [Stewart] driver, who nobody's been paying attention to, because he's disappointing, is Jan Magnussen.
Felipe Nasr - the least forgettable F1 driver!
User avatar
Rob Dylan
Posts: 3477
Joined: 18 May 2014, 15:34
Location: Andy Warhol's basement

Re: 2018 Silly Season

Post by Rob Dylan »

Mr Massa is retiring, meaning there is one less driver in the running for that 2018 Williams seat.
Murray Walker at the 1997 Austrian Grand Prix wrote:The other [Stewart] driver, who nobody's been paying attention to, because he's disappointing, is Jan Magnussen.
Felipe Nasr - the least forgettable F1 driver!
User avatar
AndreaModa
Posts: 5806
Joined: 30 Mar 2009, 17:51
Location: Bristol, UK

Re: 2018 Silly Season

Post by AndreaModa »

Rob Dylan wrote:Mr Massa is retiring, meaning there is one less driver in the running for that 2018 Williams seat.


This was the scene at Williams HQ in Grove on Wednesday as they interviewed prospective drivers for 2018...
Image
I want my MTV...Simtek Ford

My Motorsport Photos

@DNPQ_
User avatar
Paul Hayes
Posts: 1101
Joined: 17 Apr 2009, 19:54

Re: 2018 Silly Season

Post by Paul Hayes »

So, farewell then Felipe Massa. (Again)

I doubt he'll get the chance to walk down the pit lane in Brazil again mid-race this time!
User avatar
mario
Posts: 8091
Joined: 31 Oct 2009, 17:13

Re: 2018 Silly Season

Post by mario »

Paul Hayes wrote:So, farewell then Felipe Massa. (Again)

I doubt he'll get the chance to walk down the pit lane in Brazil again mid-race this time!

Whilst it was a touching moment, at the same time I imagine that he would prefer it if he wasn't in a situation where he was having to make the long walk back to the garage in the middle of the race. It's one of those decisions that you suspected was coming for a while now, and it felt simply like a question of when the call would be made: at least he gets to make the announcement on his terms this time around.
Martin Brundle, on watching a replay of Grosjean spinning:
"The problem with Grosjean is that he want to take a look back at the corner he's just exited"
User avatar
Rob Dylan
Posts: 3477
Joined: 18 May 2014, 15:34
Location: Andy Warhol's basement

Re: 2018 Silly Season

Post by Rob Dylan »

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/132856/mclaren-makes-norris-f1-reserve-for-2018
All seems a bit much hype a bit too soon. Frankly, although he's shown in F3 this year that he's quick to learn, his racecraft is all over the place. I hate to echo Massa about Alguersuari in 2009, but I feel like Norris would actually be a menace if he were to be promoted this early to a race seat were Alonso to take a weekend off to do the Indy 500, say. I understand it's the trend of "who can get the youngest world champion in their car" that's been going around since 2007, but seriously, I feel like this is going way too far.
Murray Walker at the 1997 Austrian Grand Prix wrote:The other [Stewart] driver, who nobody's been paying attention to, because he's disappointing, is Jan Magnussen.
Felipe Nasr - the least forgettable F1 driver!
User avatar
Bobby Doorknobs
Posts: 4059
Joined: 30 Jul 2014, 17:52
Location: In a safe place.

Re: 2018 Silly Season

Post by Bobby Doorknobs »

Rob Dylan wrote:https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/132856/mclaren-makes-norris-f1-reserve-for-2018
All seems a bit much hype a bit too soon. Frankly, although he's shown in F3 this year that he's quick to learn, his racecraft is all over the place. I hate to echo Massa about Alguersuari in 2009, but I feel like Norris would actually be a menace if he were to be promoted this early to a race seat were Alonso to take a weekend off to do the Indy 500, say. I understand it's the trend of "who can get the youngest world champion in their car" that's been going around since 2007, but seriously, I feel like this is going way too far.

Ah, it's not as bad as Stroll skipping F2 entirely and spending half a season getting called the worst driver on the grid. Alonso, to the disappointment of many, won't be returning to Indianapolis next year and wants to do a few sportscar races to gain experience for a Le Mans attempt. He's already confirmed for Daytona, which obviously doesn't clash with any F1 weekends. Where else he will race is anyone's guess, but if he were to hypothetically race at, say, Sebring in March, Spa in May and then Le Mans itself in June, there would be no date clashes to worry about, so really it's a question of one of the incumbent drivers avoiding injury, which thankfully is something most drivers can manage easily nowadays.

I don't think McLaren honestly expect to put Norris in a Grand Prix as early as next year. It's really just a chance for him to get to know the team he's almost certainly going to make his début with at some point in the future.
#FreeGonzo
User avatar
Rob Dylan
Posts: 3477
Joined: 18 May 2014, 15:34
Location: Andy Warhol's basement

Re: 2018 Silly Season

Post by Rob Dylan »

On a similar note, just for clarification, this means that Jenson Button is no longer with the team for 2018? I understand he was on call for 2017 for if and when Alonso missed any races, but I always thought that deal was for 2018 as well. Maybe it's been changed since I last looked - plus, Button himself says he wants out of Formula 1 for good.
Murray Walker at the 1997 Austrian Grand Prix wrote:The other [Stewart] driver, who nobody's been paying attention to, because he's disappointing, is Jan Magnussen.
Felipe Nasr - the least forgettable F1 driver!
User avatar
mario
Posts: 8091
Joined: 31 Oct 2009, 17:13

Re: 2018 Silly Season

Post by mario »

Rob Dylan wrote:On a similar note, just for clarification, this means that Jenson Button is no longer with the team for 2018? I understand he was on call for 2017 for if and when Alonso missed any races, but I always thought that deal was for 2018 as well. Maybe it's been changed since I last looked - plus, Button himself says he wants out of Formula 1 for good.

You are correct that, back in 2016, the contract that he signed was for two years and did have an option for him to race in 2018. It also seems rather clear from Button's recent behaviour that the likelihood of him actually taking up that option is extremely remote, and it's likely that any performances would probably show the same lack of enthusiasm that he showed in that one off in Monaco.
Martin Brundle, on watching a replay of Grosjean spinning:
"The problem with Grosjean is that he want to take a look back at the corner he's just exited"
IceG
Posts: 681
Joined: 06 Oct 2011, 17:24
Location: London (the one in England)

Re: 2018 Silly Season

Post by IceG »

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/saub ... on-985150/

Apart from being able to steer large piles of cash into the Sauber bank account, what has Ericsson done to keep his seat? Wehrlein outscored and outperformed him for most of the season, perhaps the Mercedes link made him slightly toxic?
User avatar
Salamander
Posts: 9570
Joined: 29 Mar 2009, 20:59
Location: trapped on some prison island

Re: 2018 Silly Season

Post by Salamander »

IceG wrote:https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/sauber-confirms-ericsson-leclerc-for-2018-f1-season-985150/

Apart from being able to steer large piles of cash into the Sauber bank account, what has Ericsson done to keep his seat? Wehrlein outscored and outperformed him for most of the season, perhaps the Mercedes link made him slightly toxic?


I hate seeing this argument. Marcus Ericsson is not some dreadful Jean-Denis Deletraz-level paydriver. He outperformed Nasr in 2016 and performed respectably against Wehrlein.
Sebastian Vettel wrote:If I was good at losing I wouldn't be in Formula 1.
Everything's great.
I'm not surprised about anything.
IceG
Posts: 681
Joined: 06 Oct 2011, 17:24
Location: London (the one in England)

Re: 2018 Silly Season

Post by IceG »

If Ericsson was not bringing substantial sponsorship to Sauber, would he have kept his seat based on absolute driving merit and results, regardless of comparisons with Wehrlein?

Ericsson has been in F1 for four years, he has not scored a point since 2015. Kvyat is out and he used to keep Ricciardo honest. Palmer is out for demonstrable lack of ability and he at least scored points this year.

My argument is against pay drivers at this level, not Ericsson personally. To me they undermine the product which Liberty are trying to sell: the best drivers in the fastest cars. There are currently only 20 seats available. F1 cannot call itself the pinnacle of motorsport when some of those seats are filled by drivers who are not there on absolute merit, or because they have shown recent excellent form in a feeder series.
User avatar
Salamander
Posts: 9570
Joined: 29 Mar 2009, 20:59
Location: trapped on some prison island

Re: 2018 Silly Season

Post by Salamander »

Rome wasn't built in a day. Pay drivers have always been a part of the sport, and you can't just expect them to be excised from F1 because of a change in management.

Is Ericsson one of the world's top 20 drivers? No. But I doubt half the grid makes that qualification, even some of those that are ostensibly on grid "on merit", even today in what I would argue is the strongest era in terms of driver ability F1 has ever seen. Yet F1 has been seen as the pinnacle of motorsport for at least the last 30-40 years regardless. Much as I would like that title to be solely based on driver ability, it is in fact the strength of teams, the worldwide calendar, and the large amount of money and prestige compared to other motorsport championships that have earned F1 that accolade.
Sebastian Vettel wrote:If I was good at losing I wouldn't be in Formula 1.
Everything's great.
I'm not surprised about anything.
User avatar
Rob Dylan
Posts: 3477
Joined: 18 May 2014, 15:34
Location: Andy Warhol's basement

Re: 2018 Silly Season

Post by Rob Dylan »

Salamander wrote:[Ericsson] outperformed Nasr in 2016 and performed respectably against Wehrlein.

And I'd say even that is up for debate! :chilton:
Murray Walker at the 1997 Austrian Grand Prix wrote:The other [Stewart] driver, who nobody's been paying attention to, because he's disappointing, is Jan Magnussen.
Felipe Nasr - the least forgettable F1 driver!
User avatar
mario
Posts: 8091
Joined: 31 Oct 2009, 17:13

Re: 2018 Silly Season

Post by mario »

IceG wrote:If Ericsson was not bringing substantial sponsorship to Sauber, would he have kept his seat based on absolute driving merit and results, regardless of comparisons with Wehrlein?

Ericsson has been in F1 for four years, he has not scored a point since 2015. Kvyat is out and he used to keep Ricciardo honest. Palmer is out for demonstrable lack of ability and he at least scored points this year.

My argument is against pay drivers at this level, not Ericsson personally. To me they undermine the product which Liberty are trying to sell: the best drivers in the fastest cars. There are currently only 20 seats available. F1 cannot call itself the pinnacle of motorsport when some of those seats are filled by drivers who are not there on absolute merit, or because they have shown recent excellent form in a feeder series.

The problem is that the concept of a driver being in the sport "on merit" can sometimes appear to be somewhat nebulous, and more than a few times we have seen a disconnect between the performance of a driver in junior series and their performance in F1 - sometimes they've done brilliantly throughout their junior career, but then flop in F1, and sometimes their junior career is not stunning, but their performances in F1 belie their junior category form.

To be fair to Ericsson, it could be pointed out that it is not as if his team mates have been scoring that many points either - Wehrlein picked up 5 and Nasr just 2, and it has to be said that, before Nasr scored those points, I believe that Ericsson had been ahead of Nasr until then. Furthermore, I believe that the team did order him to let Wehrlein through in Baku and arguably cost him the point that Wehrlein scored instead, so he could have scored in that race at least.

There is also the question of what exactly the term "pay driver" means, given that now pretty much every driver that enters the sport usually has some sort of sponsorship deal (even if it a minor one). Take, for example, Carlos Sainz Jr. - on paper, he appears to share characteristics with a number of pay drivers as his performances in Formula 3 and GP3 were average to poor (the only series where he was competitive were Formula Renault 2.0 and 3.5). Furthermore, given the head of Cepsa had indicated that they did lobby Red Bull to hire Sainz Jr in 2015 (Cepsa being a major sponsor of Toro Rosso at the time), you could argue that Sainz Jr was a pay driver in some senses given the influence his sponsors played at the team - and yet quite a few would feel that, since entering F1, he has performed fairly well.
Martin Brundle, on watching a replay of Grosjean spinning:
"The problem with Grosjean is that he want to take a look back at the corner he's just exited"
User avatar
Londoner
Posts: 6423
Joined: 17 Jun 2010, 18:21
Location: Norwich, UK
Contact:

Re: 2018 Silly Season

Post by Londoner »

The three engines-per-year rule is now reality. I can't imagine this won't blow up in the FIA's collective faces sometime next year.

Also, it's been revealed that F1 saw almost a 50% decline in overtaking during 2017. I mean, who would have thought mandating a stupidly enormous front wing would have such an effect? :facepalm: Which also means, Salamander - if that is your real name, you were right. This formula sucks. :facepalm:
Fetzie on Ferrari wrote:How does a driver hurtling around a race track while they're sous-viding in their overalls have a better understanding of the race than a team of strategy engineers in an air-conditioned room?l
Post Reply