2018 Silly Season

The place for speaking your mind on current goings-on in F1
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Rob Dylan
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Re: 2018 Silly Season

Post by Rob Dylan »

<Obligatory Nigel Mansell mention here>
Murray Walker at the 1997 Austrian Grand Prix wrote:The other [Stewart] driver, who nobody's been paying attention to, because he's disappointing, is Jan Magnussen.
Felipe Nasr - the least forgettable F1 driver!
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mario
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Re: 2018 Silly Season

Post by mario »

Rob Dylan wrote:<Obligatory Nigel Mansell mention here>

Given how much effort Toro Rosso seem to be going to in order to try and find a replacement for Hartley, at this rate that would seem like one of the less bizarre suggestions in the mad world that we seem to live in today.

I do agree with the comments that Collieafc and Rob Dylan have made about Red Bull's wider issues in their young driver school, and it seems that a few other observers have made a similar point too. For quite a few years, Red Bull seemed to be able to rely on the fact that they were the only ones who had a young driver scheme that could help drivers advance through the junior series and into F1, so they could afford to screw about young drivers because they knew there would always be a steady stream of new applicants just around the corner desperate to take a chance.

However, now a young driver is in a situation where he can potentially attract attention from multiple different teams - Mercedes, Ferrari, McLaren and Renault all have their own young driver programmes - so now Red Bull are no longer unique and it is the drivers who now potentially can pick and choose.

Furthermore, if the wider Fiat-Chrysler group continues to strengthen its links with Sauber, as suggested by the recent shift of personnel from Ferrari to Sauber, then Ferrari could begin to use Sauber as a proving ground for promising drivers - so even the promise of getting an initial foot in the door at a smaller team, before then being promoted into the parent team, might no longer be unique to Red Bull and Toro Rosso either.

Red Bull are now operating in a much more crowded market for junior drivers, and the problem is that they don't seem to be prepared to adapt to the fact that drivers are potentially now viewing them as a less attractive option and can afford to turn them down.
Martin Brundle, on watching a replay of Grosjean spinning:
"The problem with Grosjean is that he want to take a look back at the corner he's just exited"
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Rob Dylan
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Re: 2018 Silly Season

Post by Rob Dylan »

Yeah, I'll agree with what Mario's been saying. In 2014 Red Bull could offer the Verstappens what no other team could: a drive in F1. We're getting to the point now where Mercedes can drop a driver like Ocon or Wehrlein into Manor and Force India, or where Ferrari can drop a driver into Sauber and Haas.

Red Bull no longer have the ridiculous edge on every other team that they once held. Now that they are losing their monopoly, they are perhaps also losing talent.
Murray Walker at the 1997 Austrian Grand Prix wrote:The other [Stewart] driver, who nobody's been paying attention to, because he's disappointing, is Jan Magnussen.
Felipe Nasr - the least forgettable F1 driver!
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Bleu
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Re: 2018 Silly Season

Post by Bleu »

Sato returning after IndyCar season is over would make him break Jan Lammers's record.
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Re: 2018 Silly Season

Post by dr-baker »

Bleu wrote:Sato returning after IndyCar season is over would make him break Jan Lammers's record.

Had it really been that long? Wow.
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IceG
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Re: 2018 Silly Season

Post by IceG »

Well reading between the lines of the "rumours" being reported in various F1 sites...

Stroll will leave Williams and take up Ocon's seat at Force Stroll before the end of the season.

Ocon will leave Force India and take up Alonso's seat at McLaren as Alonso takes an early retirement before the end of the season and/or Lando Calrissian will be given a drive in Alonso's seat as an F1 test.

Kubica will be promoted to a race seat at Williams to fill in for Stroll and/or George Russell will be given a drive in Stroll's seat as an F1 test.

Of all these rumours, the Stroll to Force India seems most likely. And also the most depressing as he is demonstrably the least interesting/talented driver of all those listed...
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mario
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Re: 2018 Silly Season

Post by mario »

IceG wrote:Well reading between the lines of the "rumours" being reported in various F1 sites...

Stroll will leave Williams and take up Ocon's seat at Force Stroll before the end of the season.

Ocon will leave Force India and take up Alonso's seat at McLaren as Alonso takes an early retirement before the end of the season and/or Lando Calrissian will be given a drive in Alonso's seat as an F1 test.

Kubica will be promoted to a race seat at Williams to fill in for Stroll and/or George Russell will be given a drive in Stroll's seat as an F1 test.

Of all these rumours, the Stroll to Force India seems most likely. And also the most depressing as he is demonstrably the least interesting/talented driver of all those listed...

Whilst there were some suggesting that change could occur as soon as the Belgian GP, at the moment Ocon and Perez are still being listed on the entry list for what has now become Racing Point Force India.

Still, Stroll has been making a few comments suggesting that such a move isn't out of the question later on in the season, so we might well end up seeing Stroll there sooner rather than later.
Martin Brundle, on watching a replay of Grosjean spinning:
"The problem with Grosjean is that he want to take a look back at the corner he's just exited"
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dr-baker
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Re: 2018 Silly Season

Post by dr-baker »

The way I understand the situation, the FIA see Racing Point Force India as a brand new team, and therefore we now have a reject team on the grid in Belgium!

But what I have not quite yet understood is this:

Autosport wrote:That means the former Force India entry has been officially annulled, with the FIA ruling that the team is excluded from the world championship with immediate effect.

This action forfeits its constructors' championship points.

I can understand if all points scored so far are listed as one entry in the constructors championship, then all further points attributed to the new entry, separating the two entities. But to annul one entity altogether? That'll make a mess of the record books. Perez and Ocon scoring points without a team? Have they retrospectively become faster than Usain Bolt?
watka wrote:I find it amusing that whilst you're one of the more openly Christian guys here, you are still first and foremost associated with an eye for the ladies!
dinizintheoven wrote:GOOD CHRISTIANS do not go to jail. EVERYONE ON FORMULA ONE REJECTS should be in jail.
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AdrianBelmonte_
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Re: 2018 Silly Season

Post by AdrianBelmonte_ »

So, in a nutshell, Lawrence Stroll has become modern day's Andrea Sassetti by buying all the Force India assets but not the entry, huh?
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sswishbone
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Re: 2018 Silly Season

Post by sswishbone »

This is a total farce, utter farce. So if they're excluded do the points for other races where they scored get redistributed?
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dinizintheoven
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Re: 2018 Silly Season

Post by dinizintheoven »

I predict this "new" team will have more points than Williams by... let's say... the end of the Belgian Grand Prix.
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Rob Dylan
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Re: 2018 Silly Season

Post by Rob Dylan »

That's a lot of bloody news to get in one day!

This is also the kind of thing that's going to change the moment I post this. It appears that the lineups of Williams and Force India, or Racing Point, are the same.

Are we going to see the glorious fall and rise of Santino Ferucci as he gets propelled into Racing Point? :D
Murray Walker at the 1997 Austrian Grand Prix wrote:The other [Stewart] driver, who nobody's been paying attention to, because he's disappointing, is Jan Magnussen.
Felipe Nasr - the least forgettable F1 driver!
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Ataxia
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Re: 2018 Silly Season

Post by Ataxia »

Stroll's played this to perfection.

Rather than buy the team and take on all the debt, the administration process has allowed him to purchase the assets, and then lean on the FIA/FOM for an entry and prize money. He's walked away with both, as well as a fully-functioning F1 team that he can invest in. Sure, they've lost points, but the team's good enough to climb a few spots up the order...
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IceG
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Re: 2018 Silly Season

Post by IceG »

In the FP1 interviews yesterday, Otmar Szafnauer confirmed that Racing Point Force India, as a new competitor, do NOT get a new supply of new engines - they continue on with those inherited from Force India in their current condition with the current usage across the season.

This is in contrast with the loss of the points gained by Force India - which makes sense given that RPFI is a new entry with a new team which purchased the assets but not the entry of Force India. But you can't have it both ways.

There has clearly been a whole bunch of behind-the-scenes politicking to get things to where they are. Presumably there is more to emerge?
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mario
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Re: 2018 Silly Season

Post by mario »

Ataxia wrote:Stroll's played this to perfection.

Rather than buy the team and take on all the debt, the administration process has allowed him to purchase the assets, and then lean on the FIA/FOM for an entry and prize money. He's walked away with both, as well as a fully-functioning F1 team that he can invest in. Sure, they've lost points, but the team's good enough to climb a few spots up the order...

I wouldn't say that it has gone perfectly, since it sounds as if they might still have a few issues surrounding prize money payments that might be a bit of a sting in the tail.

Whilst it sounds as if the other teams have agreed that the team can receive the prize money that it had earned up to the point where the asset sale took place, it sounds as if there isn't an agreement in place over their future prize money allocation. If the team is deemed to be a new entrant, then they might only get the basic Column 1 payments for the next few years until 2020, when the current commercial agreements come to an end - basically, the same situation that Haas has gone through.

Understandably, Haas have been taking the position that, if they had to go through the initial pain of only getting the basic payments as a new entrant, then Racing Point have to do the same as well. That said, it may well be that most of that prize money would have been used to pay off the debts that the team had anyway, so perhaps it doesn't make a huge difference in the grand scheme of things.

The other aspect is the fact that Uralkali, and Mazepin, are still in the background and could cause problems - they are threatening legal action against the administrators, having accused them of improperly handling the sales process. It will probably lead to an out of court settlement, but it might add an additional complication to the sales process that they hadn't bargained on. https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/losi ... 48/?nrt=54
Martin Brundle, on watching a replay of Grosjean spinning:
"The problem with Grosjean is that he want to take a look back at the corner he's just exited"
IceG
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Re: 2018 Silly Season

Post by IceG »

It looks like Ocon already knows he's gone

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/ocon ... n/3164700/
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Rob Dylan
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Re: 2018 Silly Season

Post by Rob Dylan »

https://racer.com/2018/11/22/haas-protests-force-india-over-chassis-design/

Two silly season threads open at once? Uh oh! But this is present so I'll leave it here.

So Haas are protesting that Force India shouldn't be entitled to payment if it's a new team. Haas don't get money until they've done three seasons, and they think it's wrong that Racing Point are raking in the dollars immediately after entering. Hence they're protesting.

Not sure how I feel about this. Big money going after big money often feels out of proportion from someone like me who has no money at all, but I can certainly see Haas's reasoning behind the move.
Murray Walker at the 1997 Austrian Grand Prix wrote:The other [Stewart] driver, who nobody's been paying attention to, because he's disappointing, is Jan Magnussen.
Felipe Nasr - the least forgettable F1 driver!
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Rob Dylan
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Re: 2018 Silly Season

Post by Rob Dylan »

Murray Walker at the 1997 Austrian Grand Prix wrote:The other [Stewart] driver, who nobody's been paying attention to, because he's disappointing, is Jan Magnussen.
Felipe Nasr - the least forgettable F1 driver!
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mario
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Re: 2018 Silly Season

Post by mario »

Rob Dylan wrote:https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/haas-force-india-protest-verdict/4303025/

Ok so now the protest has been dismissed. The end :P

It might have been dismissed, but it seems that Haas probably wanted the protest to be dismissed because, by losing, they have actually gained more from it.

When you look at it, the protest is a rather cunningly devious one by Haas - by challenging whether Racing Point Force India was obtaining ‘listed parts’ from Sahara Force India, pretty much any decision by the stewards was going to have a negative outcome for RPFI.

Under Appendix 6 of the Sporting Regulations, a team cannot obtain listed parts from another competitor - this is what it says:
The obligation to design and use Listed Parts shall not prevent a competitor from Outsourcing the design and/or manufacture of any Listed Parts to a third party (including an Associate of such competitor) provided that:
a) It retains the exclusive right to use the Listed Parts in Formula One so long as it competes in Formula One.
b) In the case of the Outsourcing of manufacture such third party shall not be a competitor.
c) In the case of the Outsourcing of design, such third party shall not be a competitor or a party that directly or indirectly designs Listed Parts for any competitor.


By challenging whether Sahara Force India was a "competitor" and whether RPFI did have the "exclusive right" to use those listed parts, what Steiner was trying to force the FIA to say was that could only happen if RPFI was an entirely separate entity from the original Sahara Force India team: as he himself has said, that was what he really wanted out of this hearing.
Guenther Steiner wrote:Team principal Guenther Steiner admitted this was their goal when he spoke to Sky after the verdict was handed down. “The argument was they are, in our opinion, a new constructor, because they came in with a new licence.”


In that respect, Steiner has been successful - the decision states
Decision 4
In relation to the submission by the Racing Point Force India F1 Team that it is not a new team, the Stewards decide that the Racing Point Force India F1 Team is indeed a new team. It is a separate and different legal entity to the Sahara Force India F1 Team and it holds a different ASN Competition License issued by the MSA of Great Britain and a different FIA Super License. Therefore, it cannot be considered as the “same team” as the former Force India.

I've emphasised that point as that is exactly what Steiner was angling for - for some part of the FIA to state that RPFI is officially a new team.

Of course, what this really boils down to is whether RPFI can now claim the prize money that SFI would have otherwise been eligible for. With that decision by the stewards, what Steiner has done is to force the stewards to declare that RPFI is a "new team" - which, in turn, now weakens their claims to prize money from FOM as they are not the legal successor to the original team.

By doing that, either Force India lose their rights to Column 1 prize money for the next few years - which would weaken their competitiveness, since now their turnover will be dropping significantly, and take out a potential rival for Haas - or they are now potentially gaining leverage with Liberty Media and FOM over getting increased payments themselves, boosting Haas's turnover and therefore potentially increasing their competitiveness. It might look like a loss for Haas, but by losing this case they have actually ended up in a stronger position.
Martin Brundle, on watching a replay of Grosjean spinning:
"The problem with Grosjean is that he want to take a look back at the corner he's just exited"
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