2018 Silly Season

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Aislabie
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2018 Silly Season

Post by Aislabie »

With the 2017 Silly Season at such a late stage as to almost be sensible, it seems suitably silly to open a thread for the next one (assuming of course that nobody else has done so yet).

I'd suggest that there are things to discuss, including:
  • Valtteri Bottas only has a one-year deal at Mercedes. Are they fishing for Sebastian Vettel?
  • Kimi Raikkonen will be 38 years old and out of contract again. Cue usual speculation.
  • Carlos Sainz will be looking for some sort of potential race-winning car after having spent most of his adult life with Toro Rosso. Gasly to finally step up to F1?
  • Sauber will probably have run out of money by then.
  • Taki Inoue's triumphant return to the grid.
  • Lando Norris will be old enough to get onto the grid.

Oh, and in true silly spirit, I'll have a dip and try to guess the 2018 grid based solely on speculation and no actual evidence:
Ferrari - Kimi Raikkonen & Carlos Sainz (DD: Charles Leclerc)
Force India - Esteban Ocon & Sergio Perez (DD: Alfonso Celis)
Haas - Antonio Giovinazzi & Kevin Magnussen (DD: someone from Ferrari)
McLaren - Fernando Alonso & Stoffel Vandoorne (DD: Lando Norris)
Mercedes - Lewis Hamilton & Sebastian Vettel (DD: George Russell)
Red Bull - Daniel Ricciardo & Max Verstappen (DD: Red Bull Junior Team)
Renault - Nico Hulkenberg & Felipe Nasr (DD: Giuliano Alesi)
Sauber - Marcus Ericsson & Sergio Sette Camara (DD: none)
Toro Rosso - Pierre Gasly & Daniil Kvyat (DD: Red Bull Junior Team)
Williams - Valtteri Bottas & Lance Stroll (DD: Alex Lynn, just chillin')
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Re: 2018 Silly Season

Post by Dj_bereta »

I bet Ricciardo and Verstappen will stay at Red Bull for a long time, especially the latter. This will be a problem for the junior drivers, especially Gasly.

My Prediction:

Mercedes: Hamilton/Bottas
Red Bull: Ricciardo/Verstappen
Ferrari: Vettel/Perez
Force India: Ocon/Palmer
Williams: Stroll/Magnussen
Mclaren: Alonso/Vandoorne
Toro Rosso: Gasly/Kvyat
Haas: Grosjean/Giovinazzi
Renault: Hulk/Sainz
Sauber: Ericsson/Werhlein
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Re: 2018 Silly Season

Post by CoopsII »

Hah, don't ask me. F1 finishes on free-to-air at the end of 2017 so I won't be watching next year :D
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Re: 2018 Silly Season

Post by watka »

We know nothing yet but I'm putting it out there that I'd be hugely surprised to see Jolyon Palmer on the 2018 grid. In fact, I'd make it an avatar bet.
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Re: 2018 Silly Season

Post by UncreativeUsername37 »

Red Bull: Ricciardo/Verstappen
Both drivers do well and more or less match each other, so they aren't changed.

Mercedes: Hamilton/Pérez
Bottas doesn't do that well, and Pérez beats Ocon in the ultimate final Mercedes seat playoff.

Ferrari: Vettel/Räikkönen
Still.

McLaren: Alonso/Vandoorne
There are no higher spaces open for Alonso, and Vandoorne does a good enough job to stay on.

Force India: Ocon/Wehrlein
Pérez was great, but Ocon wasn't horrible, and the team want continuity. After comfortably beating Ericsson just as his reputation was getting decent, Wehrlein moves up and back into a Mercedes feeder, and the Wehrlein/Ocon battle gets a chance to properly resolve.

Williams: Bottas/Stroll
Williams welcome Bottas back and keep Stroll, who actually did okay considering he went straight from F3 to Williams at 20.

Renault: Hülkenberg/???
There'll be an open GP2 winner. Magnussen would be awkward, but it's a possibility. I don't know.

Haas: Grosjean/Giovinazzi
Grosjean outperforms Magnussen, but he's still waiting for Räikkönen to retire, plus Ferrari have someone actually decent they want to test out.

Toro Rosso: Sainz/Gasly
Kvyat sucks and, for once, Red Bull make the obvious choice.

Sauber: Ericsson/some rookie with €€€
Self-explanatory.
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Re: 2018 Silly Season

Post by BigG80 »

Ferrari and Kimi announce that he won't be re-signing for next season and Grosjean is announced.
One week later, Ron Dennis and Kimi announce the formation of their new team, Bwah F1 with Kimi as lead driver.
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Re: 2018 Silly Season

Post by Rob Dylan »

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/128046/f1-should-freeze-mercedes-engine--tost
So F1 finally gets rid of the whole "engine development tokens" nonsense so that the engine developers can be free to develop as fast as they want, and now Tost wants Mercedes' development to be frozen? Seems fair...
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Re: 2018 Silly Season

Post by Salamander »

Rob Dylan wrote:http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/128046/f1-should-freeze-mercedes-engine--tost
So F1 finally gets rid of the whole "engine development tokens" nonsense so that the engine developers can be free to develop as fast as they want, and now Tost wants Mercedes' development to be frozen? Seems fair...


Well it depends on what you want - Mercedes 1-2 all day every day, or every other team winning more than once or twice a year.
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Re: 2018 Silly Season

Post by CoopsII »

Without Bernie everything collapses. Ferrari finally follow up on their threats to not only start their own breakaway championship but to enter Indycar. They dominate the Ferrari-only championship and win not only both titles but each and every race setting records which they confidently predict will never be beaten. In Indycar they finish last in every race and, after sacking both drivers and most of the management team, decide to start their own breakaway Indycar championship for 2019....
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Re: 2018 Silly Season

Post by DanielPT »

Rob Dylan wrote:http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/128046/f1-should-freeze-mercedes-engine--tost
So F1 finally gets rid of the whole "engine development tokens" nonsense so that the engine developers can be free to develop as fast as they want, and now Tost wants Mercedes' development to be frozen? Seems fair...


It is no Mercedes fault that they work better than the rest. But we've been here before. History likes to repeat itself often and apparently more so in F1 than elsewhere.

Besides, this would only be fair if Red Bull freezes their aero development, Ferrari freezes their reception of those historic fees cheques and Toro Rosso freezes their hiring of new drivers.
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Re: 2018 Silly Season

Post by Butterfox »

DanielPT wrote:
Rob Dylan wrote:http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/128046/f1-should-freeze-mercedes-engine--tost
So F1 finally gets rid of the whole "engine development tokens" nonsense so that the engine developers can be free to develop as fast as they want, and now Tost wants Mercedes' development to be frozen? Seems fair...


It is no Mercedes fault that they work better than the rest. But we've been here before. History likes to repeat itself often and apparently more so in F1 than elsewhere.

Besides, this would only be fair if Red Bull freezes their aero development, Ferrari freezes their reception of those historic fees cheques and Toro Rosso freezes their hiring of new drivers.

But then we would have years of Force India domination, so they need to freeze their 'punching above their financial weight' as well.
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Re: 2018 Silly Season

Post by Dj_bereta »

http://www.crash.net/f1/news/240221/1/r ... -2018.html

Now the 2018 silly season started. Imagine Mercedes considering Rosberg's idea. The ultimate showdown happening; Kimi gaining an extra live in F1 or two free seats at Ferrari (Perez and Sainz? Perez and Grosjean? Perez and Bottas? Ricciardo?); Free seat in Force India + the team losing all Perez's sponsors (Ericsson + Ocon? or Werhlein + Ocon + Mercedes money?); Another chance for Kvyat or Gasly + Sette Camara;
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Re: 2018 Silly Season

Post by Aislabie »

With the recent spate of headlines, I think it's time to give this thread the bump it deserves. Relevant headlines include:


Evidently, ever since the last Silly Season (where Finland's Germany's fourth WDC retired out of the blue) it seems that journalists (loosest sense of the word) have decided that no story is too silly to be reported.
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Re: 2018 Silly Season

Post by Bobby Doorknobs »

Aislabie wrote:With the recent spate of headlines, I think it's time to give this thread the bump it deserves. Relevant headlines include:


Evidently, ever since the last Silly Season (where Finland's Germany's fourth WDC retired out of the blue) it seems that journalists (loosest sense of the word) have decided that no story is too silly to be reported.

Don't forget Brabham's imminent comeback!

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Re: 2018 Silly Season

Post by dr-baker »

Simtek wrote:Don't forget Brabham's imminent comeback!

...says Joe Saward...


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Aislabie
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Re: 2018 Silly Season

Post by Aislabie »

It's most definitely that time of year again, but I can't see the silly season being very silly at all.

MERCEDES
Valtteri Bottas & Lewis Hamilton (unchanged)

FERRARI
Kimi Raikkonen & Sebastian Vettel (unchanged)

RED BULL
Daniel Ricciardo & Max Verstappen (unchanged)

FORCE INDIA
Esteban Ocon & Pascal Wehrlein (Perez may be being just too much of an arse)

WILLIAMS
Felipe Massa & Lance Stroll (you either retire a legend or drive long enough to be Rubens Barrichello)

RENAULT
Nico Hulkenberg & Sergio Perez (together again)

HAAS
Romain Grosjean & Kevin Magnussen (unchanged)

TORO ROSSO
Pierre Gasly & Carlos Sainz (surely this year)

MCHONDA
Fernando Alonso & Stoffel Vandoorne (unchanged)

SAUBER
Marcus Ericsson & Charles Leclerc (Ferrari 'B' team)
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Re: 2018 Silly Season

Post by TheFlyingCaterham »

Here's my guess:


Ferrari: Vettel and Raikkonen (both confirmed)
Force India: Perez and Ocon (only Ocon is confirmed, and considering the coming-togethers they have had over the course of this season, I'm not sure if Perez is set in stone for having a drive next season)
Haas: Grosjean and Magnussen (both confirmed)
McLaren: Vandoorne and de Vries, Turvery or Alonso (only Vandoorne is confirmed, and I think Alonso will end up giving up on McLaren, and retire or move to another team unless McLaren ditches Honda. Since I don't think other drivers will see benefit in moving to McLaren, they'll get a debutant if Alonso leaves.)
Mercedes: Hamilton and Bottas (only Hamilton is confirmed, though I think Mercedes have found themselves a dependable support for Hamilton, so I reckon Bottas will stay here for the foreseeable future)
Red Bull: Ricciardo and Verstappen (both confirmed)
Renault: Hulkenberg or Sirotkin, Kubica and Alonso (only Hulkenberg is confirmed, and I'm sure you can agree that Palmer probably won't be returning for 2018. So this seat is up for grabs for anyone. My guesses are Sirotkin, since he has been a FP driver for a little while now; Kubica, since I have dreams and he may actually have some decent pace left in him; and Alonso, since if he wants to continue in F1, heading to Renault is probably his best bet. I reckon this guess is outlandish though)
Sauber: ??? and ???
Toro Rosso: Sainz and Kvyat or Gasly (only Sainz is confirmed, and I think Kvyat might have been a little too erratic this year to keep his seat. In this case, I have a feeling Gasly will be chosen to replace him)
Williams: Stroll and ???

I'll get to Williams and Sauber later, since I'm somewhat busy right now.
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Re: 2018 Silly Season

Post by This Could Be You »

My Predictions:

Mercedes:
Hamilton/Bottas (no change)

Ferrari:
Vettel/Raikkonen (no change)

Red Bull-"Definitely not Renault, oh no":
Ricciardo/Verstappen (no change)

Force India-Mercedes:
Ocon/Alonso? (not entirely serious, but if Perez is dropped, why not? It's definitely better than McHonda, and he could probably win on a good day. Wehrlein will be their test driver in this scenario)

Renault:
Hulkenburg/Kubica? (it might still happen, possibly...)

Williams-Mercedes:
Stroll/Perez? (Perez might actually be a decent fit at Williams if they make a half-decent car, and they should keep that Martini livery too)

Haas-Ferrari:
Grosjean/Giovinazzi? (Magnussen gets demoted again, despite having a contract. He might end up at Williams, but it seems unlikely)

Toro Rosso-Renault:
Sainz/Gasly? (fairly obvious choices, though Sainz will definitely get fed up by the end of the year. He'll probably go to Haas or Renault in 2019)

Mclaren-Honda:
Vandoorne/erm... actually this is quite difficult. If Alonso leaves, the only drivers left on the market have either already been burnt by them (Magnussen, Perez) are too young (F2 drivers, Wehrlein), or aren't very good (Palmer). I guess maybe Massa or a Red Bull-less Kvyat would be their only options, unless they do something weird and promote Lando Norris.

Sauber-Ferrari:
Ericsson/Leclerc? (Ericsson for the Longbow money, Leclerc because of the Ferrari money, but also because he's very good but too raw for Haas)
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Re: 2018 Silly Season

Post by Miguel98 »

I doubt Giovinazzi will reach an F1 race again considering this year performances... He crashed more times in the race he did with Sauber and the FP sessions than in his F2 season last year. That takes something.
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mario
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Re: 2018 Silly Season

Post by mario »

Miguel98 wrote:I doubt Giovinazzi will reach an F1 race again considering this year performances... He crashed more times in the race he did with Sauber and the FP sessions than in his F2 season last year. That takes something.

I don't think it is completely out of the question that he could make it into F1, but I would agree that it seems doubtful that he will get a race seat in F1 next year. I can see Ferrari trying to place Leclerc at Sauber for 2018, with the possibility of putting Giovinazzi there as a test driver with practise outings.

As others have said, although he hasn't been confirmed yet, the indication from Mercedes is that Bottas will be keeping his seat next year. As for Alonso, frustrated though he is at McLaren, the problem he has is that he probably won't be able to move elsewhere given that most of the top seats have been locked out for the long term: he probably faces the choice of hanging on for one more year or retiring (and I wouldn't entirely rule out the latter happening as his frustrations are clearly growing).

Thinking about the 2018 season in a broader sense, I think that the most likely seats up for grabs are those of Massa (he may choose to retire), Kvyat (potentially moved aside for Gasly at the end of the year), Palmer and Wehrlein (as the change in management may leave him vulnerable as they pivot more closely towards Ferrari).

If Sauber do push out Wehrlein in favour of one of Ferrari's junior drivers (it does feel as if they are moving that way, and Leclerc must be the favourite to get the seat), then I can see Mercedes trying to place him at Williams, particularly if Massa is retiring (or if he can be persuaded to retire by the team).

As for Kvyat, I do feel that Red Bull will move him aside for Gasly at this stage - whether rightly or wrongly is another matter - as it is hard to see Kvyat being able to ever fully recover his confidence whilst being in the Red Bull stable.

With Palmer, we know full well that Kubica is in the background there - and, if he did return, that would be a major story - but Renault do seem to be casting their net fairly widely in the search for a new driver. The big question there is whether they recruit from within their own team, or from one of the other teams - there have been a few hints that Sainz might be on their list, so it possible that, although he has a contract with Toro Rosso, we could see him turn up elsewhere if Renault are that interested in him.
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Re: 2018 Silly Season

Post by UncreativeUsername37 »

Mercedes: Hamilton and Bottas. With Bottas being better than expected, there isn't much reason to change, especially when the Pérez/Ocon matchup is looking more ambiguous by the day.
Ferrari: Vettel and Räikkönen. Both are performing at the perfect level.
Red Bull: Verstappen and Ricciardo. Locked down.
Force India: Pérez and Ocon. The team and the drivers are top of the midfield and no one has any reason to leave anyone.
Williams: Massa and Stroll. Massa doesn't seem to feel like retiring anymore and Stroll has money, plus being so young and having skipped a level he deserves another year anyway.
Renault: Hülkenberg and Alonso. Hülkenberg was like their fifth choice and it'd be strange if they really thought he was good enough to be worth building the team around. Meanwhile, it's the highest open place for Alonso, and a Renault-Alonso pairing won't bring up too many "marriage of convenience" questions.
Toro Rosso: Sainz and Kvyat. Kvyat hasn't quite been to the level of Sainz, but he's been better than last year, and there's clearly something about Gasly they doubt.
Haas: Grosjean and Magnussen. Magnussen will do just enough to be kept (I know, he already has, but what is a contract these days) and brakes aside, Haas and Grosjean seem quite happy with each other.
McLaren: Vandoorne and... here's a silly one, I'll say Wehrlein. If Norris is considered unready, they'll be each other's only place to go in a way.
Sauber: Ericsson and Leclerc. Ericsson has money and Leclerc can gain some experience before he battles Grosjean for a 2020 Ferrari seat. That's a long prediction, I know.
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Re: 2018 Silly Season

Post by Butterfox »

I don't rule out the possiblity of a jagonya ayam-backed driver at Torro Rosso though. Perhaps Giovinazzi could go there, on the condition Gelael drives more friday sessions. (they don't only back indonesian drivers) I doubt McLaren believes enough in De Vries to promote him (neither in honda protegé Matsuhita) and i also do not think Renault believe enough in Rowland.
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Re: 2018 Silly Season

Post by CoopsII »

Jeez, can you imagine if McLaren lost Alonso? What would this season have looked like with two, with respect, nobodies in the cars? They'd be like the original Lotus, Tyrell or Brabham in their death throes (or Williams today), people saying 'oh I remember that team, didn't they win a lot in the olden days?'.

McLaren need Alonso to maintain some sense of credibility and I think they'll pay whatever he wants and allow to him partake in whatever series he likes as long as he keeps turning up at race weekends.
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Re: 2018 Silly Season

Post by IceG »

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/mcla ... lt-946783/

This is just getting sad now.

I am not a one-team fan but McLaren has always been my favourite (from when I worked in the building next door in Woking) and to see them failing so badly is terrible. And Alonso is correct, the problem is Honda. But that problem had its genesis in Dennis' refusal to allow a second team to use the engine (so giving more data, etc.).

McLaren can survive and grow by switching to Renault, that seems to be the most likely way of keeping the flawed genius that is Alonso in the sport. Good short to medium term solution for Alonso and McLaren.

Honda have demonstrated (again) that their brilliant engineering is not what makes an F1 champion manufacturer. Surely now they must change their management philosophy. Perhaps they will buy a team (Toro Rosso?) or just walk away. The former options is expensive, the latter option is humiliating. And having a major car manufacturer walk away from F1 would look so bad.
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Re: 2018 Silly Season

Post by mario »

IceG wrote:https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/mclaren-honda-divorce-toro-rosso-renault-946783/

This is just getting sad now.

I am not a one-team fan but McLaren has always been my favourite (from when I worked in the building next door in Woking) and to see them failing so badly is terrible. And Alonso is correct, the problem is Honda. But that problem had its genesis in Dennis' refusal to allow a second team to use the engine (so giving more data, etc.).

McLaren can survive and grow by switching to Renault, that seems to be the most likely way of keeping the flawed genius that is Alonso in the sport. Good short to medium term solution for Alonso and McLaren.

Honda have demonstrated (again) that their brilliant engineering is not what makes an F1 champion manufacturer. Surely now they must change their management philosophy. Perhaps they will buy a team (Toro Rosso?) or just walk away. The former options is expensive, the latter option is humiliating. And having a major car manufacturer walk away from F1 would look so bad.

If McLaren insist on breaking their contract with Honda, then it looks like they might well have little choice but to leave the sport - as that article notes, I cannot imagine that Liberty Media will be entirely happy with that, since it will be detrimental to the image of the sport for them to lose Honda, though on the flipside having Alonso in a more competitive car is something that they surely want.

It does raise the question of whether Renault will be able to cope as well - they have previously expressed concerns that being forced to supply McLaren could overstretch their resources, and they have been struggling a bit with reliability themselves.

I suppose the other question is whether Honda might well decide to cut their losses at this stage - it would certainly be humiliating for them to be forced out of the sport, but equally their reputation has been taking a real pounding this year.
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Re: 2018 Silly Season

Post by BigG80 »

I watched about 2 hours of red flag coverage during qualifying yesterday and there was a very revealing interview with Christian Horner. He basically said that the plan is for Toro Rosso to switch to Honda and McLaren to take Renault which has been rumoured for a while. He was saying there are things to clear up and resolve for it to happen but he seemed very keen on the idea.

For the Red Bull group, it makes a lot of sense. They get access to two engine suppliers with no barriers to either going in the senior team cars so they can take Honda if the engine gets good for 2019.

He also said that theoretically Red Bull has the power to veto Renault supplying more teams but that they wouldn't be exercising it.

There was also a lot of footage of Renault people visiting McLaren on Thursday or Friday and Briatore popped up saying they need a decision within hours, maximum a week.

I really do think that this is going to happen and it should be good for next year. Providing McLaren keep the chassis development of this year, it is reasonable to expect them to be a top four team next year.
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Re: 2018 Silly Season

Post by DemocalypseNow »

We've now hit the weekend and no sign yet of any of the requisite moves for a McLaren-Renault arrangement come to fruition.

While Honda being forced out of Formula 1 may be humiliating for them, I would argue that continuing in the series with either McLaren or Toro Rosso would be equal humiliation.

They only have three seasons left to catch up before the next engine regulation change. Why waste time, money and resources failing to adapt to an engine formula they still can't fully fathom? I feel they should pull out, regroup, invest their time and energy into steering the engine working group towards a formula that suits their engineering prowess a bit better, and come back in 2021 with an engine they can actually get their head around fully.

There is no point in continuing the charade they will catch-up one day. They might, but it's too little, too late at this point. Every areodynamic, chassis and engine rule package has a plateau, and even if Honda reach this convergence point along with the other three marques in 2019/20, it will not have been worth their while.

Hasegawa-san talked about how the started from a blank page for this year's engine, how it was a complete revolution from the 2015/6 spec design. The history books are not going to reflect this. It will show Honda making a single dud power unit, during a single engine regulation phase, over the course of six years.

Staying in Formula 1 to see out the current engine development cycle will only do them further harm, even if the engine does inch closer to competitiveness over the coming years. No amount of recovery from now to 2020 can make up for how far short they fell in the first half of the engine development cycle.

Honda should withdraw, but with a clear statement of intent with a return date and clear objectives. They need to headhunt some key members of the powertrain teams at Mercedes and Ferrari and have them lead the direction of the 2021-onwards engine programme.
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Re: 2018 Silly Season

Post by Londoner »

Sainz is off to Renault next year, paving the way for Toro Rosso and McLaren switching engine suppliers

Going to be interesting to see who gets the vacant Toro Rosso seat, given Red Bull have Gasly waiting in the wings, but Honda may insist on Matsushita. Personally I'm hoping they somehow get Sean Gelael a superlicence, we need a Jagonya Ayam! sponsored team in F1. :dance:

Sadly this pretty much kills any chance of Alonso going over to IndyCar. :(
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Re: 2018 Silly Season

Post by Ataxia »

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Re: 2018 Silly Season

Post by UncreativeUsername37 »

So now both Renault's drivers only went there because they were beaten by someone....
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Re: 2018 Silly Season

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Am I the only person who thinks McLaren is simply trading one not-great engine for another?

I'm not sure it matters either way for Alonso's championship aspirations. Or race wins come to that.
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Re: 2018 Silly Season

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Re: 2018 Silly Season

Post by BigG80 »

CoopsII wrote:Am I the only person who thinks McLaren is simply trading one not-great engine for another?

I'm not sure it matters either way for Alonso's championship aspirations. Or race wins come to that.

I think the McLaren chassis this year is good enough to compete with Red Bull so if they'd had the same engine then their season would be occasional podiums which is better than what they've had so it is worthwhile.

I'm really excited about Sainz to Renault. It would be excellent if Toro Rosso did one of their complete changes and let Kvyat go too. He's not the same driver he once was and I'd like to see some fresh talent in the team.
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Re: 2018 Silly Season

Post by mario »

CoopsII wrote:Am I the only person who thinks McLaren is simply trading one not-great engine for another?

I'm not sure it matters either way for Alonso's championship aspirations. Or race wins come to that.

It is one of those cases where they are being reduced to taking what they think is the least worst option (either a terrible engine with more funding, or a poor engine with less funding).

They have reached the point where they probably feel that the association with Honda is beginning to damage their future prospects, and the money that Honda has provided them is not enough to offset their reputational damage (not to mention being partially offset by lost revenue in the WCC as well). Furthermore, they have become rather dependent on Alonso dragging the team to some sort of respectability, and the threat of him walking out of the team hangs over them - for a team that has traditionally been able to command veteran drivers and world champions, they would face the prospect of possibly having one of their least experienced line ups in decades if they had to replace Alonso with Norris, something which could leave both drivers struggling.

It is true that the alternative, which is the Renault power unit, is still far from an idea engine unit - Verstappen has borne the brunt of the reliability problems (I believe that he has covered fewer laps than both McLaren drivers, such has been the frequency with which he has retired), but even so Renault have had quite a few reliability problems this year. They have at least shown signs of improving their performance though, and although their reliability is still not great, it is still better than what Honda have shown so far.

There have also been some suggestions that Abiteboul is a bit of a difficult person to work with because of his attitude (being a bit thin-skinned, as it were), such that any working relationship between McLaren and Renault could be a bit tense, just as the relationship between Red Bull and Renault has been strained at times.

On the other hand, we know that the current engine rules are due to be changed in 2021 - the technical working groups are working on the rules at the moment - so the engines are due to be changed fairly soon. From the point of view of McLaren, they probably have decided that, even if Honda can make decent improvements this year and next year, then they might at best be coming up to scratch only a year or so before the rules change anyway - if McLaren can, at the very least, put themselves further up the grid and demonstrate that they are still capable of building a decent chassis (perhaps aiming for 3rd or 4th in the WCC), then that may give them a chance of securing backing from another manufacturer in the future (if Porsche are serious - which is a big if - I expect McLaren will be one of many teams lobbying them for either a works deal or at least an engine supply deal).

From the point of view of Red Bull, I imagine that their main interest is using Honda to partially offset the cost of running Toro Rosso - although the budget may be smaller, the problem is that Toro Rosso doesn't generate much in the way of sponsorship either (though the funding package was reportedly one sticking point between Honda and Red Bull, since Honda did not want to pay Toro Rosso the same amount they paid McLaren, since the Toro Rosso brand was worth much less to them than McLaren is).

It also gives them the chance to develop links with multiple manufacturers, which may give them more leverage in the negotiations over future development rules and two chances of potentially having a decent engine in the post 2021 regulation package.

UgncreativeUsergname wrote:So now both Renault's drivers only went there because they were beaten by someone....

Well, it has to be said that Sainz Jr has effectively reached a point where he can't move up into the parent team, since Red Bull have potentially locked both drivers into those seats for multiple years, so his only chance of moving up the grid is to leave Toro Rosso and go elsewhere.

Renault, effectively, is his best chance of moving into a team that is on the up - though it does mean that we have multiple hype trains colliding with each other (the hype around Kubica, Sainz Jr and Hulkenberg all converging at the same point). It does also mean that we will see Gasly being given a chance, though if I am honest I am a bit underwhelmed by him.

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Perhaps Honda have taken the attitude that they potentially have more leverage on the 2021 regulation package from within the sport rather than being outside it - this way, they are more actively involved in shaping those rules and have a more direct insight on the development philosophy of the new engines than other parties which have been invited but are not currently directly involved in the sport.

The other aspect is that the future regulation package is likely to take elements from the current package. The initial suggestions leaked to the press suggest that the engine might remain larely the same, with the largest change being a switch from a single turbo to a twin turbo layout - they might think that, if they can get a somewhat decent base engine by the end of the current development cycle, that might stand them in reasonably good stead for the future development cycle.
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Re: 2018 Silly Season

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If Alonsos form runs to, er, form then I think we can expect the Squadro Toro Rosso-Honda to be a field-decimating behemoth with someone like Kvyat as WDC.
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Re: 2018 Silly Season

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CoopsII wrote:If Alonsos form runs to, er, form then I think we can expect the Squadro Toro Rosso-Honda to be a field-decimating behemoth with someone like Kvyat as WDC.

Well if Kvyat is leading, he can't crash into anyone...
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Re: 2018 Silly Season

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This wrote:
CoopsII wrote:If Alonsos form runs to, er, form then I think we can expect the Squadro Toro Rosso-Honda to be a field-decimating behemoth with someone like Kvyat as WDC.

Well if Kvyat is leading, he can't crash into anyone...

....except for lapped cars. :pantano:
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Re: 2018 Silly Season

Post by FMecha »

Old news, but McLaren mulls making their own engines in 2021 provided the engine formula suits them

I can't see this going well if they go ahead with it, this sounds to backfire more than their current Honda stint...
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Re: 2018 Silly Season

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Can't help but feel McLaren have played a blinder here. Red Bull are likely stranded with that horrendous lump, and
unless Honda somehow have a massive turnaround in performance ala Honda in CART between 1994 and 1995 (which isn't going to happen), we might be seeing the (temporary?) end of Red Bull as frontrunners.

If I were Dale or Max, I'd be lining up another seat as soon as possible. I can't see how Honda will be any different with Red Bull than they have been with McLaren, they're still miles behind Ferrari/Mercedes/Renault in the development race.
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Re: 2018 Silly Season

Post by madmark1974 »

East Londoner wrote:

Can't help but feel McLaren have played a blinder here. Red Bull are likely stranded with that horrendous lump, and
unless Honda somehow have a massive turnaround in performance ala Honda in CART between 1994 and 1995 (which isn't going to happen), we might be seeing the (temporary?) end of Red Bull as frontrunners.

If I were Dale or Max, I'd be lining up another seat as soon as possible. I can't see how Honda will be any different with Red Bull than they have been with McLaren, they're still miles behind Ferrari/Mercedes/Renault in the development race.


BBC are now running this story too - subject to official announcements today/tomorrow :

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/41265779
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