Sauber and Alfa Romeo?

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The Chicane
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Sauber and Alfa Romeo?

Post by The Chicane »

Words going around that Sauber might be using Alfa Romeo badged engines in 2018 or maybe being renamed altogether.
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Re: Sauber and Alfa Romeo?

Post by Rob Dylan »

And now Ericsson's come out and said his seat might not be entirely safe :shock: Sauber must be searching for money in other plaves then :dance: which is something of a shame, because he's been doing well in the last few years in making a good long career for himself as a pay driver.
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Re: Sauber and Alfa Romeo?

Post by The Chicane »

Rob Dylan wrote:And now Ericsson's come out and said his seat might not be entirely safe :shock: Sauber must be searching for money in other plaves then :dance: which is something of a shame, because he's been doing well in the last few years in making a good long career for himself as a pay driver.


I can see Sauber/Alfa Romeo going with Charles Leclerc and Antonio Giovinazzi for next year.
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Re: Sauber and Alfa Romeo?

Post by mario »

The Chicane wrote:Words going around that Sauber might be using Alfa Romeo badged engines in 2018 or maybe being renamed altogether.

There have been a few suggestions for a while that Marchionne had considered the option of rebadging the Ferrari engines as an Alfa Romeo unit, with rumours having circulated around both Sauber and Haas being approached in the past about running with Alfa Romeo branded engines or with Alfa-Romeo sponsorship on the car. I could see a rebadging operation happen, or perhaps sponsorship from Alfa Romeo, but I am less convinced that a full takeover is on the cards right now.

The Chicane wrote:
Rob Dylan wrote:And now Ericsson's come out and said his seat might not be entirely safe :shock: Sauber must be searching for money in other plaves then :dance: which is something of a shame, because he's been doing well in the last few years in making a good long career for himself as a pay driver.


I can see Sauber/Alfa Romeo going with Charles Leclerc and Antonio Giovinazzi for next year.

Given that there has been talk that Ferrari want to place both of their drivers at Sauber for 2018, I agree that the most logical conclusion is that they are trying to persuade the owners of Sauber to move him aside to place Giovinazzi there (assuming that, as many seem to think, that a deal for Leclerc is already in place), and a discounted engine deal would probably be the obvious starting point.

Leveraging that to gain additional discounts, or cash payments, from Marchionne by bringing back the Alfa name would be the next logical step, particularly since it could chime nicely with the pitch for the highest performance versions of Alfa's Giulia (where the engine, which is a V6 turbo unit, is pitched as being related to the F154 Ferrari engine series).
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Re: Sauber and Alfa Romeo?

Post by Aguvazk »

Sauber with Ferrari engines rebadged??? What year is it? 1997?? In that's case, i propose the pair Leclerc-Fontana, :D
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Re: Sauber and Alfa Romeo?

Post by Rob Dylan »

Can we all at least just spare a thought for Wehrlein. Two perfectly commendable years for two shite teams, and not even in the running for a drive. Poor, poor Pascal...
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Re: Sauber and Alfa Romeo?

Post by watka »

Rob Dylan wrote:Can we all at least just spare a thought for Wehrlein. Two perfectly commendable years for two shite teams, and not even in the running for a drive. Poor, poor Pascal...


You have to say that Pascal has done better than most who've had their introduction to F1 at the back of the grid. He's certainly been fairly dependable, I don't remember him being the cause of any serious incidents in his time (ironically his ROC crash is his worst mistake). I think his best chance is to stay relevant by taking a reserve driver role with one of the Mercedes engine teams. Bottas being given another 1 year deal seems to suggest they are willing to cut him at the drop of a hat, in which case they might sign another driver from a partner team (thinking Ocon) and free up a spot for him.
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Re: Sauber and Alfa Romeo?

Post by Klon »

Rob Dylan wrote:Can we all at least just spare a thought for Wehrlein. Two perfectly commendable years for two shite teams, and not even in the running for a drive. Poor, poor Pascal...


THIS is the thing that justifies doubting Formula One's place as the pinnacle of motorsports. Not the halo, not the engines, not anything else. THIS STUFF RIGHT THERE. What kind of premier sporting league fails to keep the best young talent in the world today? It's like the best young American Football player not playing in the NFL, the best young motorcycle driver not driving in MotoGP, the best young LoL players not taking part in the League of Legends World Championship and so on and so on.

It is a travesty and a failure of Formula One as a whole.
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Re: Sauber and Alfa Romeo?

Post by UncreativeUsername37 »

Klon wrote:
Rob Dylan wrote:Can we all at least just spare a thought for Wehrlein. Two perfectly commendable years for two shite teams, and not even in the running for a drive. Poor, poor Pascal...


THIS is the thing that justifies doubting Formula One's place as the pinnacle of motorsports. Not the halo, not the engines, not anything else. THIS STUFF RIGHT THERE. What kind of premier sporting league fails to keep the best young talent in the world today? It's like the best young American Football player not playing in the NFL, the best young motorcycle driver not driving in MotoGP, the best young LoL players not taking part in the League of Legends World Championship and so on and so on.

It is a travesty and a failure of Formula One as a whole.

Even going into its fourth season, I'm still partially thinking of FE as F1 Division Two....
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Re: Sauber and Alfa Romeo?

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Klon wrote:
Rob Dylan wrote:Can we all at least just spare a thought for Wehrlein. Two perfectly commendable years for two shite teams, and not even in the running for a drive. Poor, poor Pascal...


THIS is the thing that justifies doubting Formula One's place as the pinnacle of motorsports. Not the halo, not the engines, not anything else. THIS STUFF RIGHT THERE. What kind of premier sporting league fails to keep the best young talent in the world today? It's like the best young American Football player not playing in the NFL, the best young motorcycle driver not driving in MotoGP, the best young LoL players not taking part in the League of Legends World Championship and so on and so on.

It is a travesty and a failure of Formula One as a whole.


Maybe a slight exaggeration but I see your point, it will be a damn shame if Wehrlein doesn't find a drive for 2018.
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Re: Sauber and Alfa Romeo?

Post by Henrique »

It's official!

https://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/361484/sauber-announces-alfa-romeo-partnership/

The team will be called Alfa Romeo Sauber next year.
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Re: Sauber and Alfa Romeo?

Post by takagi_for_the_win »

Henrique wrote:It's official!

https://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/361484/sauber-announces-alfa-romeo-partnership/

The team will be called Alfa Romeo Sauber next year.


Hopefully this secures a bit more funding for the team, and potential sponsors may also be more attracted to the lure of the Alfa Romeo name rather than the Sauber name. Also seeing a Giovanzzi/Leclerc driver line-up being bandied about, would certainly be a step-up on recent pairings for the team.
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Re: Sauber and Alfa Romeo?

Post by Barbazza »

Illustrated on the BBC F1 page (though not the Sport homepage) by....ummm.... an Osella.

I know they had Alfa Romeo engines for a bit, but that's asking a lot of the modern F1 audience.....
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Re: Sauber and Alfa Romeo?

Post by Dexter249 »

Henrique wrote:It's official!

https://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/361484/sauber-announces-alfa-romeo-partnership/

The team will be called Alfa Romeo Sauber next year.

Sauber's last attempt at this was meh.
Considering Alfa Romeo's Rejectfulness in near-Modern F1, We might be in for a treat, I'd certainly be down to see Alfa Sauber's be quick
That's probably a stretch though.
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Re: Sauber and Alfa Romeo?

Post by Wallio »

Ferrari running a team claiming to be Alfa? Its the 1930s!

I am looking forward to this, but badge the bloody engine! Sauber did pretty well last time a factory owned them, so as long as they don't hire a washed up retiree and then give up on a legit WCC shot again, they should do well.

Haas is now screwed. But thats business.
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Re: Sauber and Alfa Romeo?

Post by WeirdKerr »

Wallio wrote:Ferrari running a team claiming to be Alfa? Its the 1930s!

I am looking forward to this, but badge the bloody engine! Sauber did pretty well last time a factory owned them, so as long as they don't hire a washed up retiree and then give up on a legit WCC shot again, they should do well.

Haas is now screwed. But thats business.


Haas could well end up with one of FCA's American car brand for example Chrysler as engine title partner....
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Re: Sauber and Alfa Romeo?

Post by Wallio »

WeirdKerr wrote:
Wallio wrote:Ferrari running a team claiming to be Alfa? Its the 1930s!

I am looking forward to this, but badge the bloody engine! Sauber did pretty well last time a factory owned them, so as long as they don't hire a washed up retiree and then give up on a legit WCC shot again, they should do well.

Haas is now screwed. But thats business.


Haas could well end up with one of FCA's American car brand for example Chrysler as engine title partner....



See, this has been bandied about, and I still say no. There was a rumor (albeit unsubstantiated) that FCA was pressuring Haas to be Alfa. I said it wouldn't happen, because the media push Haas got from partnering Ferrari was huge. Keep in mind, aside from the press conference they had on SPEED, USF1 got no coverage here. Nothing. Haas was reported on ESPN, on FOX, even in newspapers. Hell, they talked it up on NASCAR broadcasts. And all the reports were the same "Gene is partnering with Ferrari! A new NART! The greatest team in Grand Prix history! Blah, Blah, and Blah."

Alfa? No one knows Alfas over here. Alfa was supposed to start selling cars here 6 years ago. We finally got one, one! dealership this summer. Lot has, maybe 20 cars on it. 5 of which are Maserati. Haas would lose all support and media coverage if he wasn't paired with "the great Ferrari" (or possibly McLaren, possibly). It just won't work.

As for Haas being Chrysler? No way. Chrysler's brand is V8 muscle cars (some without seats) and Ram trucks. They pulled out of NASCAR, which would sell loads of both. Why get into F1? Yes, in '93 they tried to set up a factory program with McLaren, but that was because they had Lambo, and needed more bang for the bucks they were losing in that money pit.

Haas will either need to get used to third tier Ferrari parts, or start building their own. Or sell-out, I suppose.
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Re: Sauber and Alfa Romeo?

Post by Meatwad »

Rob Dylan wrote:Can we all at least just spare a thought for Wehrlein. Two perfectly commendable years for two shite teams, and not even in the running for a drive. Poor, poor Pascal...

I think the emergence of Ocon is what ruined Wehrlein's future in F1. Wehrlein had some good drives for Manor, even scoring a point, but then another Mercedes junior driver became his team mate and was even more impressive in the few races they had together.

The seats they got for 2017 were pretty telling, too – not only did Ocon get to drive for a better team, but you could argue Wehrlein was under more pressure to outperform his team mate, though his was weaker. Ocon got a highly rated team mate so even being close to Pérez (which he was) would have been considered a success for a rookie. Meanwhile, Ericsson has never really been considered anything special so Wehrlein was expected to destroy him over a season – perhaps an unfair expectation, as Ericsson could occasionally outperform Kobayashi and Nasr in his previous seasons. Comparing the respective performances of Wehrlein and Ericsson, I think that while Wehrlein was clearly the better driver of the two, he should have outpaced Ericsson more often than he did. But still, Wehrlein has definitely shown enough to deserve another chance. His best races this year were great (he made that Sauber look more competitive than it should have been), and even at his worst, he was a solid driver (I can't remember him having any particularly silly incidents, unlike many other drivers).
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Re: Sauber and Alfa Romeo?

Post by SuzukiSwift »

Barbazza wrote:Illustrated on the BBC F1 page (though not the Sport homepage) by....ummm.... an Osella.

I know they had Alfa Romeo engines for a bit, but that's asking a lot of the modern F1 audience.....


From ‘84-‘88, but I think by the end they were called “Osella” V8s.
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Re: Sauber and Alfa Romeo?

Post by SuzukiSwift »

Wallio wrote:
WeirdKerr wrote:
Wallio wrote:Ferrari running a team claiming to be Alfa? Its the 1930s!

I am looking forward to this, but badge the bloody engine! Sauber did pretty well last time a factory owned them, so as long as they don't hire a washed up retiree and then give up on a legit WCC shot again, they should do well.

Haas is now screwed. But thats business.


Haas could well end up with one of FCA's American car brand for example Chrysler as engine title partner....



See, this has been bandied about, and I still say no. There was a rumor (albeit unsubstantiated) that FCA was pressuring Haas to be Alfa. I said it wouldn't happen, because the media push Haas got from partnering Ferrari was huge. Keep in mind, aside from the press conference they had on SPEED, USF1 got no coverage here. Nothing. Haas was reported on ESPN, on FOX, even in newspapers. Hell, they talked it up on NASCAR broadcasts. And all the reports were the same "Gene is partnering with Ferrari! A new NART! The greatest team in Grand Prix history! Blah, Blah, and Blah."

Alfa? No one knows Alfas over here. Alfa was supposed to start selling cars here 6 years ago. We finally got one, one! dealership this summer. Lot has, maybe 20 cars on it. 5 of which are Maserati. Haas would lose all support and media coverage if he wasn't paired with "the great Ferrari" (or possibly McLaren, possibly). It just won't work.

As for Haas being Chrysler? No way. Chrysler's brand is V8 muscle cars (some without seats) and Ram trucks. They pulled out of NASCAR, which would sell loads of both. Why get into F1? Yes, in '93 they tried to set up a factory program with McLaren, but that was because they had Lambo, and needed more bang for the bucks they were losing in that money pit.

Haas will either need to get used to third tier Ferrari parts, or start building their own. Or sell-out, I suppose.


The Larrousses did carry Chrysler badging from 1990-1993.
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Re: Sauber and Alfa Romeo?

Post by Wallio »

SuzukiSwift wrote:
The Larrousses did carry Chrysler badging from 1990-1993.


Are you sure? For staters Laurrousse ran Fords in '91. And a quick search shows them on entry lists as Lola-Lambo, Venturi-Lambo, and Larrousse-Lambo in the other years.
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Re: Sauber and Alfa Romeo?

Post by Ataxia »

Wallio wrote:
SuzukiSwift wrote:
The Larrousses did carry Chrysler badging from 1990-1993.


Are you sure? For staters Laurrousse ran Fords in '91. And a quick search shows them on entry lists as Lola-Lambo, Venturi-Lambo, and Larrousse-Lambo in the other years.


Lamborghini was owned by Chrysler back then, but yeah, they didn't have that signage in '91.
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Re: Sauber and Alfa Romeo?

Post by Wallio »

Ataxia wrote:
Lamborghini was owned by Chrysler back then, but yeah, they didn't have that signage in '91.



I knew that that's why Chrysler tried to sign with McLaren in '94 (the motors were to be badged Chrysler). I mean the Venturi thing. I don't remember them being badged as Chryslers back then.
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Re: Sauber and Alfa Romeo?

Post by SuzukiSwift »

Wallio wrote:
SuzukiSwift wrote:
The Larrousses did carry Chrysler badging from 1990-1993.


Are you sure? For staters Laurrousse ran Fords in '91. And a quick search shows them on entry lists as Lola-Lambo, Venturi-Lambo, and Larrousse-Lambo in the other years.



Yes you're right about 1991 my apologies. I forgot they (Larrousse) lost the Lamborghinis that year to Ligier.


LC90;
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LC92
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LH93
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I think Chrysler was trying to make a big impact in Europe at the time or something. Also what I said was misleading - the cars themselves carried Chrysler sponsorship but I believe the engines were always designed and badged Lamborghini aside from the MP4/8B prototypes.
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Re: Sauber and Alfa Romeo?

Post by Wallio »

SuzukiSwift wrote:
I think Chrysler was trying to make a big impact in Europe at the time or something.


Great pictures! I never noticed that before! I bathplugging love the info on here sometimes. Timeline makes sense, as when the Viper first debuted in Europe (94?) it was for some reason badged a Chrysler. I believe the few Prowlers that made it to Europe were also "Chryslers".

As for the engines, IIRC Chrysler set up a separate company called Lamborghini Engineering to build the motors. (And later the "Modena" chassis) Chrysler money, but Lambo badges. While the heads, intake, etc were developed over the four years, the engine itself didn't change much. Chrysler promised Ron Dennis a works deal with a brand new, 60-Valve V12 for 1994. The engines would be "Chryslers" in 1994 despite still being made by Lamborghini Engineering. Senna pushed for it, Ron said no.

Chrysler then folded Lamborghini Engineering and sold Lambo itself to the shady Megatec group, who also bought Vector. That did give us the underrated Vector M12 which had a Lambo motor in it. But I digress....
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Re: Sauber and Alfa Romeo?

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Wallio wrote:Ferrari running a team claiming to be Alfa? Its the 1930s!

I am looking forward to this, but badge the bloody engine! Sauber did pretty well last time a factory owned them, so as long as they don't hire a washed up retiree and then give up on a legit WCC shot again, they should do well.

Haas is now screwed. But thats business.

Alfa Romeo won't be owning the team, but simply providing the team with sponsorship - whilst they have talked about a technical partnership, given that Sauber already has a partnership with Ferrari, it sounds like a continuation of the existing relationship with a new name badge on it. The overall scheme sounds more like an opportunity for Marchionne to leverage the Alfa name into F1 at relatively low overall cost to the Fiat-Chrysler group, but still gain a little bit of additional leverage over FOM on the 2021 regulation talks (the Sauber-Alfa Romeo deal expires in 2020).

As to Sauber's prospects, I expect that the team might move up into the midfield and perhaps have a chance of scoring points more regularly if they have a current spec power unit and a stronger driver line up, but I'm not expecting a radical transformation in the short term.
Sauber would have had to begin developing their 2018 car on the more limited funds that they would have had before this deal kicked in, whilst Renault are likely to make further progress and McLaren seem to be expecting to become more competitive with the Renault power unit - so whilst the lower end of the points seems achievable, making it further up the grid seems like a more challenging prospect.

[Edit] Well, it seems that Marchionne might be going for a more aggressive rebranding move than first expected, with the suggestion that the team is expected to be completely rebranded with a red and white livery reminiscent of Alfa's historical liveries.

More interestingly, there is a suggestion that the press event tomorrow (which has Todt and Carey attending in person) might also see confirmation of the line up of the team for 2018. They are suggesting that Ericsson is likely to retain his seat, with Leclerc getting the other seat and Giovinazzi given the third driver role as recompense. https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/alfa ... ey-984819/
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Re: Sauber and Alfa Romeo?

Post by The Chicane »

It's kind of bugging me that the team will still be known as "Sauber-Ferrari" despite all the Alfa Romeo branding, why don't they just rebadge the engine?
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Re: Sauber and Alfa Romeo?

Post by This Could Be You »

So, Alfa Romeo Sauber has revealed it's livery for 2018 and disappointingly it's more Sauber than Alfa, and seems to herald a return to the primarily white scheme used in 2010-11 before Peter Sauber bought more grey paint. If anything, it's actually less interesting than last years design.

However, they didn't really do it justice by revealing it on a Sauber C32-based showcar, and having mocked it up on a 2017 template below, it does look quite a lot better on a modern chassis...
Image
... although they seriously need to put something on that sidepod, even if it's their own logo or a graphic rather than any title sponsor.
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Re: Sauber and Alfa Romeo?

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This Could Be You wrote:... although they seriously need to put something on that sidepod, even if it's their own logo or a graphic rather than any title sponsor.

I was looking at that, and I was thinking that it needed something like, "This is a cool spot" or "This could be YOU!"
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Re: Sauber and Alfa Romeo?

Post by Henrique »

Looking at the gallery posted on the F1 website about Alfa Romeo, the name has GP Reject all over it.

- They powered Brabham's famous Fan Car.
- Their first podium since 1951 was at the infamous Las Vegas track.
- Their last pole was with Andrea de Cesaris. If you remember the F1 Rejects Hall of Fame, his Alfa was "one of the most feared mobile chicanes of the 80s".
- And the last F1 driver to use a Alfa Romeo engine was the great Alex Caffi, who joined Andrea Moda five years later. :badoer:
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Re: Sauber and Alfa Romeo?

Post by mario »

This Could Be You wrote:So, Alfa Romeo Sauber has revealed it's livery for 2018 and disappointingly it's more Sauber than Alfa, and seems to herald a return to the primarily white scheme used in 2010-11 before Peter Sauber bought more grey paint. If anything, it's actually less interesting than last years design.

However, they didn't really do it justice by revealing it on a Sauber C32-based showcar, and having mocked it up on a 2017 template below, it does look quite a lot better on a modern chassis...
Image
... although they seriously need to put something on that sidepod, even if it's their own logo or a graphic rather than any title sponsor.

I do wonder if part of the reason for the car being comparatively plain is the fact that, since this launch was all about the Alfa Romeo branding, they deliberately left as much of the bodywork around the logo blank in order to make it the sole focus of the launch photos.
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Re: Sauber and Alfa Romeo?

Post by Ataxia »

Rumours abound that Haas is about to enter into a similar tie-up with the Maserati brand. This gives Ferrari a three-team voting bloc; it's almost as if they wanted to exert some kind of pressure on the FIA and Liberty or something...

(EDIT: apparently it's a load of rubbish, but I'll leave it here just in case there's any double-bluffery going on...)
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Aislabie
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Re: Sauber and Alfa Romeo?

Post by Aislabie »

Ataxia wrote:Rumours abound that Haas is about to enter into a similar tie-up with the Maserati brand. This gives Ferrari a three-team voting bloc; it's almost as if they wanted to exert some kind of pressure on the FIA and Liberty or something...

I'm hoping that they also re-badge their customer engines so that we get Sauber-Alfa Romeo and Haas-Maserati in the constructors championship. A man can dream
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Re: Sauber and Alfa Romeo?

Post by WeirdKerr »

have we gone back to the 50s? :shock: :?
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Fred Mayo
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Re: Sauber and Alfa Romeo?

Post by Fred Mayo »

Some nice pearls of wisdow from one of Sweden's biggest newspapers with regards to Marcus Ericsson and Sauber-Alfa Romeo.

Few, if any drivers in F1 history have been as loyal to their team as Marcus, even though Sauber haven't kept up on track.

No driver who has scored so few points have stayed in F1 for as long as Marcus.

This shows that he has attributes that a Formula 1 team values very highly. In Marcus's case routine, loyalty and hard work.

Well, I guess that's one way of putting it...
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Re: Sauber and Alfa Romeo?

Post by Rob Dylan »

When I was in Sweden, I met something of an F1 fanatic (not Keith Collantine), who repeatedly apologised for producing Marcus Ericsson, or "Incrediboy" as he used to call him, as the representative for Sweden in Formula 1 :P From what I've seen in Swedish interviews with the guy, Marcus is just not a very interesting guy :badoer:
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mario
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Re: Sauber and Alfa Romeo?

Post by mario »

Fred Mayo wrote:Some nice pearls of wisdow from one of Sweden's biggest newspapers with regards to Marcus Ericsson and Sauber-Alfa Romeo.

Few, if any drivers in F1 history have been as loyal to their team as Marcus, even though Sauber haven't kept up on track.

No driver who has scored so few points have stayed in F1 for as long as Marcus.

This shows that he has attributes that a Formula 1 team values very highly. In Marcus's case routine, loyalty and hard work.

Well, I guess that's one way of putting it...

I guess that it says a lot about how we perceive him that I initially read that second quote as "routine royalties", which would certainly be an attribute that Sauber would have appreciated.

Aislabie wrote:
Ataxia wrote:Rumours abound that Haas is about to enter into a similar tie-up with the Maserati brand. This gives Ferrari a three-team voting bloc; it's almost as if they wanted to exert some kind of pressure on the FIA and Liberty or something...

I'm hoping that they also re-badge their customer engines so that we get Sauber-Alfa Romeo and Haas-Maserati in the constructors championship. A man can dream

Well, as Ataxia notes, it sounds as if it might just have been a bit of idle speculation, perhaps spurred by the earlier rumours that had claimed Marchionne had been pushing Haas to partner with Alfa Romeo. It does have an air of plausibility given the cachet that the Maserati brand has, but for now I expect Marchionne would be satisfied with leveraging Alfa Romeo for now, especially since it coincides with a period when he has been hoping to push Alfa Romeo towards a rather rapid expansion (and therefore wanting to publicise the brand) and, at the same time, hoping to give himself more leverage in the upcoming negotiations about the 2021 regulation package.
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The Chicane
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Re: Sauber and Alfa Romeo?

Post by The Chicane »

The Sauber name could be leaving the sport in the future according to Vasseur, which I'm a little sad to hear considering I'm a fan of historic privateer teams. :(

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