Hermann Tilke good for F1?

[tristan1117]

So far F1's favorite track designer has given us...
Sepang
Bahrain
Shanghai
Istanbul
Proposed concept for Singapore
Valencia
Abu Dhabi/Yas Island
The A1 Ring
and now South Korea.
He has also made numerous revisions to many circuits including Catalunya, the Hungaroring, Hockenheim, and even the 2 legendary F1 circuits, Spa and Monza
Is it good to have all the tracks in one boat? The same question was posed on F1 Fanatic's blog, which I encourage everyone to read. Here's is the link:http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2009/02/05/how-hermann-tilke-conquered-the-f1-calendar-1996-2009-video/ Also there is a good Youtube video describing Hermann Tilke's work.

[Fitch]

A correction....Hermann Tilke did NOT make a "revision" to Hockenheim.......Tilke DESTROYED Hockenheim...there is no other word for it.....He took a track and ripped its still beating heart out, showed it to the Legions of F1 fans and then after setting it on fire, Stomped on it..all while Laughing Maniacally and doing gestures such that if I were to describe them specifically would result in the deletion of my post at least and a Forum ban at worst..........

[thehemogoblin]

all while Laughing Maniacally and doing gestures such that if I were to describe them specifically would result in the deletion of my post at least and a Forum ban at worst..........

A Forum band? We should totally do that! I play trombone!!

[Captain Hammer]

Okay, you people really need to consider the three things that restrict Tilke here:

1: The FIA have rules and regulations that dictate just about every single facet of circuit design. Circuit length and width are the obvious ones, but they also determine gradients, banking and there is a ban on negative camber. The drivers MUST be able to take the first corner at a certain speed (this is relative to the length of the preceding straight) to prevent first-corner accidents. There is a maximum allowable distance for straights; why do you think the organisers of Le Mans included two chicanes along the Mulsanne? There must be a certain area on the sides of the circuit for run-off, and so on.

2: Geography is also a pretty big factor. Tilke doesn't show up with a circuit design already in mind; he's restricted by the size and shape of the land that has been set aside for a circuit. Take Taupo in New Zealand, for instance; on paper, the designers had a pretty sizeable area of land to build a circuit on, but in reality there was a long, narrow section sandwiched between a road and a horse track and the only way it could be utilised was to have a hairpin with a pair of long straights feeding it. In the same way, Tilke was restricted by the amount of space available at Hockenheim: he had to produce something within the bounds of the land owned by the circuit AND comply with the FIA's regulations. He was never going to be able to do much, but at least he produced an overtaking zone and got rid of one of the fiddly chicanes.

3: Budget, obviously; money is a pretty big deal. You're not going to be able to build a Formula One circuit without spending a lot, but even then there are budget restrictions in place. If Tilke is just modifying a circuit, the budget is likely to be less than if he were building one outright.

Even if you disagree with Tilke's designs - I'm not a fan of tarmac runoff areas as it looks like the races take place in a Wal-Mart carpark - you have to admit that he does a pretty good job given that there are so many things which dictate what he can and cannot do. Some people might want to see a return of European-style circuits (I'm not entirely sure what they mean by this), but in Tilke's own words, he's not going to go creating twelve Eau Rouge variants because it woudn't be very imaginitive and it would reduce the challenge (Pouhon is arguably a harder corner as increased downforce and electronic gadgetry have made Eau Rouge quite easy now).

[Stormwind]

Regardless of what resources he's given. The fact remains that his tracks are all the bloody same. As well as destroying classic tracks. I'm surprised Monza was spared his scalpel. And this is what Formula 1 is suffering from now, the lack of diversity in it's tracks. Where's the low downforce Hockenheim? track? Or my hometown Montreal track? The closest thing to a street circuit with the exception of Monaco? The new tracks all look so similiar. Or the twisty high downforce Argentinian track?

This is one thing the now defunct Champcar (previously CART ) had in it's favour, the variety of tracks to challenge the drivers. Not the same bloody thing every race week-end.

The one word I can think of the new tracks are 'assembly line'

[Captain Hammer]

It's not about the resources, it's about the FIA dictating what he can and cannot do. Why do you think Hockenheim was shortened? It was because the circuit was too long to meet FIA standards. And because the only land available to build on was the infield, what would you have done differently?

But I can already see you're not going to listen to reason considering you're blaming Tilke for the removal of Montreal.

[Stormwind]

It's not about the resources, it's about the FIA dictating what he can and cannot do. Why do you think Hockenheim was shortened? It was because the circuit was too long to meet FIA standards. And because the only land available to build on was the infield, what would you have done differently?

But I can already see you're not going to listen to reason considering you're blaming Tilke for the removal of Montreal.

It's 2:50 AM here at the time of my writing this. I'm not at my best. I'm not blaming Tilke at all. All I said regarding Tilke is that all his tracks are the same. I blame the FIA for removing the classic tracks, ultimately they approve which tracks to put on the calender, it would be foolish to blame Tilke for that.

Was just ranting about the loss of the classic tracks, and the FIA putting Tilke's designs in their places. What I would have done with Hockenheim? Nothing, I would have left it as it was. Too long to meet FIA standards... come on, it worked for many many years. Why would it suddenly be 'too long?' And it was much needed variety, so few low downforce tracks are in existence now.

As for the loss of Montreal, It's Bernie. The city is offering 110M, Bernie wants 175 Mi. Greed is what knocked a very successful grand prix off the calender...

[Captain Hammer]

Okay, 3am is an acceptable excuse. But two things stand out in your reply:

- Hockenheim. No, there was ntohing wrong with it ... but its location in the middle of the forest made it difficult to maintain safety. Limited access to the circuit for the marshalls meant that if someone wiped out, they'd be on their own.
- Montreal. It wasn't greed that killed it, it was the competition. The reason Bernie asks so much is because there's only a handful of places in the calendar, and countries like Abu Dhabi, Korea and India are both willing and able to pay more than the other cirucits.

[Ross Prawn]

OK, let me get this right. It wasn't greed that killed Montreal, it was just that Bernie could make more money from somewhere else. er..... could you run that past me again please.

[tristan1117]

I understand that he has a lot to put into account when he makes a circuit. However, he can make it a little more interesting. I mean tracks like Valencia can barely keep people awake. Istanbul Park was good, and that shows what he can do, and I always thought Shanghai was also good. I also understand that he can't make a bunch of Eau Rouges and Turn 8 Istanbuls all over the track. I would like the tracks he designs to have a lot less hairpins chicanes and Mickey Mouses. I mean if he wants to make 15 more Bahrains, let A1GP race on them. AS for Montreal, it was a great track, Alesi's win in 95, the chaos of 07, and Kubica's first win 08. Canada GP 2010 Bernie! It's better then the Hungaroring anyway!

[Captain Hammer]

However, he can make it a little more interesting.

Any ideas, then?

I mean tracks like Valencia can barely keep people awake.

Give it the benefit of the doubt. Lat year everyone pretty much settled themselves into running order based on their speed pretty quickly. This year the new regulations mean the European Grand Prix could be a very different matter.

OK, let me get this right. It wasn't greed that killed Montreal, it was just that Bernie could make more money from somewhere else. er..... could you run that past me again please.

Nope. It was economics, simple supply and demand. For the sake of argument, we'll say there are twenty open slots in the Formula One calendar, but there are, of course, more than twenty nations looking to host a Grand Prix. Bernie Ecclestone and FOM have a monopoly on the supply of calendar slots - he has to have a monopoly; if there was competition, things would get messy - if you control the supply, you can control the demand and ask a base price, as Bernie/FOM did. With the available spots on the calendar being filled up pretty rapidly, other circuits could out-bid Montreal because they had more money and a greater demand for a Grand Prix of their own.

I'm pretty sure the money Bernie makes from all this doesn't go straight into his bank account. If it did, he'd be richer than Bill Gates by now. Rather, the money goes to FOM, who put it back into the sport.

[StoneColdSpider]

i wish he would take the knife to Hung-snore-o-ring.......
god that tracks needs to b burnt!!!

[RejectSteve]

Okay, 3am is an acceptable excuse. But two things stand out in your reply:

- Hockenheim. No, there was ntohing wrong with it ... but its location in the middle of the forest made it difficult to maintain safety. Limited access to the circuit for the marshalls meant that if someone wiped out, they'd be on their own.

I'm not sure exactly what the location would have to do with marshalling the event. The grand old Hockenheimring arguably required fewer marshalls than the current track but there was never a lack of marshalls at any area of the course. Even when a car or biker would stop at the far end of the Ostkurve, it wasn't a painfully long walk back to the paddock. I'm sure they had scooters as most other F1 tracks have. Certainly the new track can cater to a larger audience with better facilities, but one could make the argument that spectator facilities could have been upgraded anyway.

The argument of the circuit suddenly becoming too long is complete rubbish because Spa is longer still. Le Mans is longer than either of them and the FIA doesn't demand the ACO to stop racing there. The FIA instituted a regulation in 1990 regarding longest straights which resulted in the two chicanes along the Mulsanne, but the circuit is still in use (and with recent developments is even longer than it was in 1990).

Anyway, the belief that all his circuits are the same is pretty solid. Look at the first sectors of Bahrain, Sepang, and Shanghai. All the same - tight right to an immediate tight left, a sweep right to a straight and another tight righthander. Istanbul is pretty close to that, just the opposite direction. Even Hockenheim has one of those silly Tilke corners at turn two. Tilkedromes are painfully alike. If I want to watch a boring series with politics, little overtaking, and tracks that are all the same, I'll watch NASCAR.

[Captain Hammer]

i wish he would take the knife to Hung-snore-o-ring.......
god that tracks needs to b burnt!!!

That's funny, because staistically the Hungaroring is the circuit most likely to bring about an unprecedented result. Seven different drivers have won it in the past seven years; two of them being maiden victories for Jenson Button and Heikki Kovalainen. And Tilke did take to the Hungaroring: the first corner used to be a 180-degree turn like the penultimate and last corners, but he extended the straight and made the turn-in sharper.

I'm not sure exactly what the location would have to do with marshalling the event. The grand old Hockenheimring arguably required fewer marshalls than the current track but there was never a lack of marshalls at any area of the course. Even when a car or biker would stop at the far end of the Ostkurve, it wasn't a painfully long walk back to the paddock. I'm sure they had scooters as most other F1 tracks have. Certainly the new track can cater to a larger audience with better facilities, but one could make the argument that spectator facilities could have been upgraded anyway.

Let's just say for argument's sake that Hamilton plants it in the wall way down at Ostkurve. And, heven forbid, he's injured. It's nothing serious, but he can't get out of the car without risking further injury; the marshalls don't know that, though. All the do know is that Hamilton is injured and the next few minutes could be vital. The limited access to the circuit means that they have to drive all the way out to Ostkurve, losing precious minutes.

[StoneColdSpider]

i wish he would take the knife to Hung-snore-o-ring.......
god that tracks needs to b burnt!!!

That's funny, because staistically the Hungaroring is the circuit most likely to bring about an unprecedented result. Seven different drivers have won it in the past seven years; two of them being maiden victories for Jenson Button and Heikki Kovalainen. And Tilke did take to the Hungaroring: the first corner used to be a 180-degree turn like the penultimate and last corners, but he extended the straight and made the turn-in sharper.

it might bring unpredicted results... but it does it in such a boring way.....