Who will be Red Bull's drivers next ... week?

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Who will be Red Bull's drivers next ... week?

Post by You-Gee-Eee-Day »

I don't rate that Verstappen bloke, I reckon his days in that car are numbered. :deletraz:

So who do you think will replace him? My money is on Pascal Wehrlein making a surprise comeback.
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Re: Who will be Red Bull's drivers next ... week?

Post by Rob Dylan »

They surely have to swap him with Kvyat.

Also I've been saying for years now that Buemi should make the comeback of all comebacks, but I've known for years now that it's simply a pipe-dream.

Now that Ticktum's gone, it surely makes Kvyat the most likely choice to replace Pierre.
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Re: Who will be Red Bull's drivers next ... week?

Post by dinizintheoven »

Surely it should be Christian Klien and Robert Doorknobs.
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Re: Who will be Red Bull's drivers next ... week?

Post by FortiWinks »

I’ve heard Mansell is interested :lol:
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Re: Who will be Red Bull's drivers next ... week?

Post by Rob Dylan »

Surprise twist: Alonso drops ties with McLaren, joins Red Bull (like he was possibly going to in like 2007) and wins the championship despite starting with them on Round 10.
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Re: Who will be Red Bull's drivers next ... week?

Post by rachel1990 »

How about the Dream Team of Alex Yoong and Yuji Ide. Entertainment factor would be at 100!
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Re: Who will be Red Bull's drivers next ... week?

Post by dr-baker »

Where's HWNSNBM when you need him, he?
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Re: Who will be Red Bull's drivers next ... week?

Post by Fetzie »

Rob Dylan wrote:Surprise twist: Alonso drops ties with McLaren, joins Red Bull (like he was possibly going to in like 2007) and wins the championship despite starting with them on Round 10.


Would Honda be OK with that, given how he spent the last three years of his time in F1 slagging them off?
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Re: Who will be Red Bull's drivers next ... week?

Post by FortiWinks »

dr-baker wrote:Where's HWNSNBM when you need him, he?


Last time I saw him he was driving the two seater Minardi around Albert Park...
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Re: Who will be Red Bull's drivers next ... week?

Post by Faustus »

I honestly don't think that Gasly is going anywhere.
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Re: Who will be Red Bull's drivers next ... week?

Post by You-Gee-Eee-Day »

Faustus wrote:I honestly don't think that Gasly is going anywhere.

Well of course not we're talking about Verstappen :deletraz:

Seriously though I think you're right, I can't see them bumping him before the end of the season when there isn't an obvious replacement.
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Re: Who will be Red Bull's drivers next ... week?

Post by Faustus »

Maybe Patricio O'Ward might be bumped up at the end of the season if he adapts well to Super Formula? Although he doesn't know the Formula 1 tracks so he would benefit from a year in Formula 2.

Lucas Auer is doing reasonably in Super Formula, isn't he?
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Re: Who will be Red Bull's drivers next ... week?

Post by Bobby Doorknobs »

Faustus wrote:Maybe Patricio O'Ward might be bumped up at the end of the season if he adapts well to Super Formula? Although he doesn't know the Formula 1 tracks so he would benefit from a year in Formula 2.

Lucas Auer is doing reasonably in Super Formula, isn't he?

Neither of them have the points required for a superlicence, so Pato is probably headed for F2 next year anyway.

On-topic, I think JJ Lehto has had plenty of time to recover from his injury, and I'm a little surprised they haven't put him back in the car yet.
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Re: Who will be Red Bull's drivers next ... week?

Post by dr-baker »

FortiWinks wrote:
dr-baker wrote:Where's HWNSNBM when you need him, he?


Last time I saw him he was driving the two seater Minardi around Albert Park...

So he has driven an F1 car on a contemporary track this year? He has recent experience? Get him in the car!

Simtek wrote:.

On-topic, I think JJ Lehto has had plenty of time to recover from his injury.

He's had 25 years to recover from his injuries in 1994. But I assume from context that you mean some other, more recent injury?
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Re: Who will be Red Bull's drivers next ... week?

Post by CaptainGetz12 »

Simtek wrote:
Faustus wrote:Maybe Patricio O'Ward might be bumped up at the end of the season if he adapts well to Super Formula? Although he doesn't know the Formula 1 tracks so he would benefit from a year in Formula 2.

Lucas Auer is doing reasonably in Super Formula, isn't he?

Neither of them have the points required for a superlicence, so Pato is probably headed for F2 next year anyway.

On-topic, I think JJ Lehto has had plenty of time to recover from his injury, and I'm a little surprised they haven't put him back in the car yet.


I'm pretty sure O'Ward has enough Super License points (just) to race in F1. Whether he should do that without any F2 or F3 experience is another matter.
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Re: Who will be Red Bull's drivers next ... week?

Post by Bobby Doorknobs »

CaptainGetz12 wrote:
Simtek wrote:
Faustus wrote:Maybe Patricio O'Ward might be bumped up at the end of the season if he adapts well to Super Formula? Although he doesn't know the Formula 1 tracks so he would benefit from a year in Formula 2.

Lucas Auer is doing reasonably in Super Formula, isn't he?

Neither of them have the points required for a superlicence, so Pato is probably headed for F2 next year anyway.

On-topic, I think JJ Lehto has had plenty of time to recover from his injury, and I'm a little surprised they haven't put him back in the car yet.


I'm pretty sure O'Ward has enough Super License points (just) to race in F1. Whether he should do that without any F2 or F3 experience is another matter.

So, I just looked into this, and I'm confused. My last post was written under the mistaken assumption that Indy Lights and Pro Mazda weren't points paying series, so Pato's situation actually doesn't look so bad on the surface. But as we're about to see, I don't know whether that makes any difference.

As we know, the Superlicence points thing only applies to the last three years, and Pato's record is:

2016 - Pro Mazda - 2nd - 7 points - Expires at the end of 2019
2017 - IMSA PC Class - 1st - 18 points
2018 - Indy Lights - 1st - 15 points
Total: 40 points exactly and he could get into the Toro Rosso this Friday if that's what he and Red Bull wanted.

And then I find this on Autosport: https://www.autosport.com/f2/news/14444 ... -reshuffle.

Jack Benyon wrote:There is some confusion over the number of super licence points O'Ward has, which will affect how quickly he is able to step up to F1.

O'Ward explained his Red Bull deal was done with the aim of getting licence points as quickly as possible.

"Everything was signed based on the possibility of a Formula 1 seat," added O'Ward.

"I should have enough [super licence points] but they don't want to count my Indy Lights points as in some races there were less than 12 cars. I can get a super licence this year if I get 15 points. I don't know from where.

"The focus is to get the license points as quick as we can."

As well as his unclear Indy Lights points situation, there is confusion over whether his IMSA Prototype Challenge championship win warrants super licence points.

This is why I love the FIA.
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Re: Who will be Red Bull's drivers next ... week?

Post by CaptainGetz12 »

Simtek wrote:So, I just looked into this, and I'm confused. My last post was written under the mistaken assumption that Indy Lights and Pro Mazda weren't points paying series, so Pato's situation actually doesn't look so bad on the surface. But as we're about to see, I don't know whether that makes any difference.

As we know, the Superlicence points thing only applies to the last three years, and Pato's record is:

2016 - Pro Mazda - 2nd - 7 points - Expires at the end of 2019
2017 - IMSA PC Class - 1st - 18 points
2018 - Indy Lights - 1st - 15 points
Total: 40 points exactly and he could get into the Toro Rosso this Friday if that's what he and Red Bull wanted.

And then I find this on Autosport: https://www.autosport.com/f2/news/14444 ... -reshuffle.

Jack Benyon wrote:There is some confusion over the number of super licence points O'Ward has, which will affect how quickly he is able to step up to F1.

O'Ward explained his Red Bull deal was done with the aim of getting licence points as quickly as possible.

"Everything was signed based on the possibility of a Formula 1 seat," added O'Ward.

"I should have enough [super licence points] but they don't want to count my Indy Lights points as in some races there were less than 12 cars. I can get a super licence this year if I get 15 points. I don't know from where.

"The focus is to get the license points as quick as we can."

As well as his unclear Indy Lights points situation, there is confusion over whether his IMSA Prototype Challenge championship win warrants super licence points.

This is why I love the FIA.


Is there any official documents that explain when a series does or doesn't issue Super License points? From the Wikipedia article any oval races in the likes of Indycar and NASCAR may or may not be count. Some clarification would be appreciated.

Still, if Indy Lights can't have at least 12 cars per race that's not a good prospect for trying to bring more new talent up into Indycar, rather than plucking drivers from other series that are losing their touch.
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Re: Who will be Red Bull's drivers next ... week?

Post by IceG »

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/gasl ... l/4492277/

Wow - that is a robust criticism and a clear statement of intent...
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Re: Who will be Red Bull's drivers next ... week?

Post by mario »

CaptainGetz12 wrote:Is there any official documents that explain when a series does or doesn't issue Super License points? From the Wikipedia article any oval races in the likes of Indycar and NASCAR may or may not be count. Some clarification would be appreciated.

Still, if Indy Lights can't have at least 12 cars per race that's not a good prospect for trying to bring more new talent up into Indycar, rather than plucking drivers from other series that are losing their touch.

Yes, the qualifying criteria are given in Appendix L of the International Sporting Code, which can be found here: https://www.fia.com/regulation/category/123

Having looked at it, I am of the opinion that Pato doesn't in fact qualify for a single superlicence point, because there are a number of more subtle clauses that have been overlooked.

This is what the minimum requirements are from the FIA:
In order to be eligible for the below table, the championships concerned will also need to meet the following criteria:
- Be composed of a minimum of 5 competitions. For the purpose of this article, a competition is only eligible provided that a minimum of 72 hours has elapsed between the end of one competition and the start of the subsequent competition.
- Be held on a minimum of 3 different tracks. Any alternative circuit configuration recognised and licensed by the FIA may be considered to be a track for these purposes.
- Have a minimum 12 drivers starting each race weekend.
- Be regularly sanctioned by its ASN in compliance with the FIA International Sporting Code.
- Be held on FIA-homologated tracks.


Now, the 2016 Pro Mazda series falls down on multiple counts - there were fewer than 12 participants in each race weekend and, on top of that, the series also used a number of circuits which I believe are not homologated by the FIA.

Similarly, I believe that the 2018 Indy Lights championship also falls into the same problem - there were only seven regular drivers, with a couple of one off drivers occasionally bringing the total up to eight participants for some races, so that championship is well short of qualifying. Once again, I believe that there is also the same issue that races were held on non-FIA homologated circuits, another factor likely to invalidate his superlicence points.

The 2017 IMSA championship victory also looks a little questionable - firstly, it appears that the FIA was going to increase the allocation from 12 to 18 superlicence points this year, but they have now postponed that change to 2020 - so, rather than 18 points, it would only be 12.

The other issue is that the regulations are not clear whether the "Prototype Challenge" class actually counts or not, as it is implied that the FIA were only looking at the DPi class, not the now defunct "Prototype Challenge" class (which was shut down at the end of 2017, and any points from that will soon be invalid anyway).

Again, I think that there is a potential issue with the circuit homologation - I believe that the road course layout of Daytona is not homologated by the FIA, so that might not count either. If that is the case, then overall I think that O'Ward doesn't qualify for a single superlicence point.

That is also why, as I understand it, the oval circuits for IndyCar and NASCAR will not count for a driver wanting to score superlicence points - because those events are held on circuits which are not FIA accredited tracks.
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Re: Who will be Red Bull's drivers next ... week?

Post by CaptainGetz12 »

mario wrote:
CaptainGetz12 wrote:Is there any official documents that explain when a series does or doesn't issue Super License points? From the Wikipedia article any oval races in the likes of Indycar and NASCAR may or may not be count. Some clarification would be appreciated.

Still, if Indy Lights can't have at least 12 cars per race that's not a good prospect for trying to bring more new talent up into Indycar, rather than plucking drivers from other series that are losing their touch.

Yes, the qualifying criteria are given in Appendix L of the International Sporting Code, which can be found here: https://www.fia.com/regulation/category/123

Having looked at it, I am of the opinion that Pato doesn't in fact qualify for a single superlicence point, because there are a number of more subtle clauses that have been overlooked.

This is what the minimum requirements are from the FIA:
In order to be eligible for the below table, the championships concerned will also need to meet the following criteria:
- Be composed of a minimum of 5 competitions. For the purpose of this article, a competition is only eligible provided that a minimum of 72 hours has elapsed between the end of one competition and the start of the subsequent competition.
- Be held on a minimum of 3 different tracks. Any alternative circuit configuration recognised and licensed by the FIA may be considered to be a track for these purposes.
- Have a minimum 12 drivers starting each race weekend.
- Be regularly sanctioned by its ASN in compliance with the FIA International Sporting Code.
- Be held on FIA-homologated tracks.


Now, the 2016 Pro Mazda series falls down on multiple counts - there were fewer than 12 participants in each race weekend and, on top of that, the series also used a number of circuits which I believe are not homologated by the FIA.

Similarly, I believe that the 2018 Indy Lights championship also falls into the same problem - there were only seven regular drivers, with a couple of one off drivers occasionally bringing the total up to eight participants for some races, so that championship is well short of qualifying. Once again, I believe that there is also the same issue that races were held on non-FIA homologated circuits, another factor likely to invalidate his superlicence points.

The 2017 IMSA championship victory also looks a little questionable - firstly, it appears that the FIA was going to increase the allocation from 12 to 18 superlicence points this year, but they have now postponed that change to 2020 - so, rather than 18 points, it would only be 12.

The other issue is that the regulations are not clear whether the "Prototype Challenge" class actually counts or not, as it is implied that the FIA were only looking at the DPi class, not the now defunct "Prototype Challenge" class (which was shut down at the end of 2017, and any points from that will soon be invalid anyway).

Again, I think that there is a potential issue with the circuit homologation - I believe that the road course layout of Daytona is not homologated by the FIA, so that might not count either. If that is the case, then overall I think that O'Ward doesn't qualify for a single superlicence point.

That is also why, as I understand it, the oval circuits for IndyCar and NASCAR will not count for a driver wanting to score superlicence points - because those events are held on circuits which are not FIA accredited tracks.


If these series aren't eligible for SuperLicense Points, then why are they listed as being series eligible for points???
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Re: Who will be Red Bull's drivers next ... week?

Post by Wallio »

Rob Dylan wrote:Surprise twist: Alonso drops ties with McLaren, joins Red Bull (like he was possibly going to in like 2007) and wins the championship despite starting with them on Round 10.


NBC reported last week that Alonso had been released from his "ambassador role" with McLaren and was free to pursue other drives. Even after Zak Brown denied it, they didn't walk it back....
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Re: Who will be Red Bull's drivers next ... week?

Post by Rob Dylan »

IceG wrote:https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/gasly-verstappen-setup-red-bull/4492277/

Wow - that is a robust criticism and a clear statement of intent...

That's quite incredible:

Helmut Marko wrote:“He was always looking for the mistake in the car, in the chassis. We checked it, there was nothing."

Ouch :badoer:

The big twist is that this new system seems to have been in place in Austria. I think the avatar betting thread for Gasly's future might be rumbling very soon.
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Re: Who will be Red Bull's drivers next ... week?

Post by IceG »

This is a problem of Red Bull's own making.

They treat Verstappen as the chosen one causing Danny Ric to jump when offered a opportunity. This was clearly a shock to Red Bull who did not have a mature succession plan in place. So Gasly is promoted early and it seems too early.

What can Red Bull do now? They need WCC points to chase/challenge Ferrari so they need a driver who can deliver. Kvyat has shown himself capable in the past and is the obvious candidate. Ideally the swap would happen at the Russian GP (maximum publicity, etc.) but they really need guaranteed points beforehand.

What if Red Bull have got a line on Alonso for next season? I dislike Alonso for his past duplicitous behaviour at McLaren and Renault but he is a fantastic driver and deserves a top seat. It would really be something if Alonso got the Red Bull drive this season and had a last chance at proving himself a great driver. Worth it just for the look on Jos Verstappen's bulldog-swallowing-a-wasp face.
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Re: Who will be Red Bull's drivers next ... week?

Post by AdrianBelmonte_ »

The only one driver that can replace Gasly is, of course, our lord and saviour Mahaveer Raghunathan
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Re: Who will be Red Bull's drivers next ... week?

Post by mario »

CaptainGetz12 wrote:
mario wrote:
CaptainGetz12 wrote:Is there any official documents that explain when a series does or doesn't issue Super License points? From the Wikipedia article any oval races in the likes of Indycar and NASCAR may or may not be count. Some clarification would be appreciated.

Still, if Indy Lights can't have at least 12 cars per race that's not a good prospect for trying to bring more new talent up into Indycar, rather than plucking drivers from other series that are losing their touch.

Yes, the qualifying criteria are given in Appendix L of the International Sporting Code, which can be found here: https://www.fia.com/regulation/category/123

Having looked at it, I am of the opinion that Pato doesn't in fact qualify for a single superlicence point, because there are a number of more subtle clauses that have been overlooked.

This is what the minimum requirements are from the FIA:
In order to be eligible for the below table, the championships concerned will also need to meet the following criteria:
- Be composed of a minimum of 5 competitions. For the purpose of this article, a competition is only eligible provided that a minimum of 72 hours has elapsed between the end of one competition and the start of the subsequent competition.
- Be held on a minimum of 3 different tracks. Any alternative circuit configuration recognised and licensed by the FIA may be considered to be a track for these purposes.
- Have a minimum 12 drivers starting each race weekend.
- Be regularly sanctioned by its ASN in compliance with the FIA International Sporting Code.
- Be held on FIA-homologated tracks.


Now, the 2016 Pro Mazda series falls down on multiple counts - there were fewer than 12 participants in each race weekend and, on top of that, the series also used a number of circuits which I believe are not homologated by the FIA.

Similarly, I believe that the 2018 Indy Lights championship also falls into the same problem - there were only seven regular drivers, with a couple of one off drivers occasionally bringing the total up to eight participants for some races, so that championship is well short of qualifying. Once again, I believe that there is also the same issue that races were held on non-FIA homologated circuits, another factor likely to invalidate his superlicence points.

The 2017 IMSA championship victory also looks a little questionable - firstly, it appears that the FIA was going to increase the allocation from 12 to 18 superlicence points this year, but they have now postponed that change to 2020 - so, rather than 18 points, it would only be 12.

The other issue is that the regulations are not clear whether the "Prototype Challenge" class actually counts or not, as it is implied that the FIA were only looking at the DPi class, not the now defunct "Prototype Challenge" class (which was shut down at the end of 2017, and any points from that will soon be invalid anyway).

Again, I think that there is a potential issue with the circuit homologation - I believe that the road course layout of Daytona is not homologated by the FIA, so that might not count either. If that is the case, then overall I think that O'Ward doesn't qualify for a single superlicence point.

That is also why, as I understand it, the oval circuits for IndyCar and NASCAR will not count for a driver wanting to score superlicence points - because those events are held on circuits which are not FIA accredited tracks.


If these series aren't eligible for SuperLicense Points, then why are they listed as being series eligible for points???

It seems to be a case where the FIA is including them as a way of demonstrating that it is offering alternative routes, provided that they do work to the FIA's systems and meet something of a basic quality standard.

After all, whilst the Indy Lights championship might count, it does rather raise a question of competence when you could fit the entire field into the back of a minibus - I mean, at that rate we could probably form our own championship from forum members of this site and get more participants than there were in the Indy Lights championship that season.
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Re: Who will be Red Bull's drivers next ... week?

Post by IceG »

Well it seems that Alonso will not be bound by his McLaren past...

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/mcla ... 0/4493213/
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Re: Who will be Red Bull's drivers next ... week?

Post by FullMetalJack »

Vitantonio Liuzzi only needs one more top 6 finish doesn't he......
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Re: Who will be Red Bull's drivers next ... week?

Post by Aislabie »

Fair warning, you're about to scroll down to quite a long post. I tried to make it as entertaining a read as I could at three in the morning here.

- - - - - - - - - -

mario wrote:It seems to be a case where the FIA is including them as a way of demonstrating that it is offering alternative routes, provided that they do work to the FIA's systems and meet something of a basic quality standard.

After all, whilst the Indy Lights championship might count, it does rather raise a question of competence when you could fit the entire field into the back of a minibus - I mean, at that rate we could probably form our own championship from forum members of this site and get more participants than there were in the Indy Lights championship that season.

Well, having a bit of a dive through Pato's palmarès, it does seem to have been judiciously manicured with the scrupulous care of the latest "unbeaten" boxing prospect to appear with a 12-0 record, only to get put on his arse by some 34-year-old hardman with bad tattoos that you'd never mention to his face.

Let's look at each of Pato's completed seasons in cars:

2014: French Formula 4 Championship
Races: 15 of 21
Wins: 1
Championship finish: 7th
Who beat Pato?: Lasse Sorensen, Dorian Boccolacci, Felix Hirsiger, Joey Mawson, Denis Bulatov, Valentin Moineault

Okay so one thing to keep in mind here is that Pato was very young. He joined the series pretty much straight after his fifteenth birthday, so Sorensen and Mawson had two and three years on him; Boccolacci was of the same vintage. O'Ward performed competently, and did so against a grid some of which has gone on to achieve a reasonable level of notoriety: Boccolacci, for instance, has recently been chewed up and spat out by Formula Two, while Mawson was chewed up and spat out by the Red Bull Junior team. Sorensen, the only other driver in the top six to have a Wikipedia page, is now driving second-tier cars in the Whelen Euro NASCAR Series. However, this series did give Pato experience of Circuit Paul Ricard, which may be useful.

2015: Pro Mazda Championship
Races: 16
Wins: 0
Championship finish: 6th
Who beat Pato?: Santiago Urrutia, Neil Alberico, Garett Grist, Weiron Tan, Timothé Buret

This series had decent grid sizes of around seventeen or more cars at most races, and a dozen drivers who hung around to complete a full Championship season. Of those, Pato didn't particularly stand out: he achieved zero wins, zero pole positions, zero fastest laps and was the leading rookie on zero occasions. He did however manage three podiums, and to mix it well on track with Championship challengers. But who were those Championship challengers? Well, there was Urrutia, who was fresh off the back of a GP3 Series season in which he was classified 23rd, with zero points. He would go on to become a three-year veteran of Indy Lights (where he would once again battle O'Ward) before moving to TCR tin-tops. In fact, none of the drivers who beat Pato in this Championship would go on to race in the IndyCar Series.

2015/16: NACAM Formula 4 Championship
Races: 12 of 21
Wins: 6
Championship finish: 3rd
Who beat Pato?: Axel Matus *, José Sierra

Now in this series, Pato had a pretty good season: without driving a complete campaign, he managed to win six races and secure third place in the championship. In races where he was a classified finisher, he never finished lower than third, and * his 20.58 points per race compare favourably with champion Matus' 19.29 points per race. So what was the competition like? Well... it was pretty not-good. More than three years on from the Championship's conclusion, only two of its drivers have reached the notability threshold for a Wikipedia entry: Pato and Hugo Becerra Monterrey. Now I'm not casting aspersions, but Hugo's entire Wikipedia entry was written by a user called "Hugobm18" who I suspect might be the man himself. As for the drivers who beat Pato, Matus also won the similarly obscure Fórmula PANAM series in 2016 before moving to Europe where he has so far managed to score only four points in 43 Formula Renault Eurocup races. Sierra meanwhile had a second attempt at the NACAM Formula 4 Championship and finished second again.

2016: Pro Mazda Championship
Races: 16
Wins: 7
Championship finish: 2nd
Who beat Pato?: Aaron Telitz

With unfinished business here and increased experience of what it feels like to win races, Pato returned to Pro Mazda as a Championship hopeful. He won six of the season's first seven races, before the rookie Telitz mounted a comeback campaign that would ultimately lead to a 22-point Championship victory for the American. However, this was truly a diminished Championship compared to the previous year: many races only boasted eight entrants to the Championship class, and only six drivers completed full seasons. At this age, Max Verstappen was racing a Toro Rosso. Series champion Telitz went on to achieve mediocrity in Indy Lights.

2017: Weather Tech Sports Car Championship (Prototype Challenge)
Races: 8
Wins: 7
Championship finish: 1st (with James French)
Who beat Pato?: Nobody!

A change of scene has finally furnished Pato with his first Championship garland. It was not hard-fought: at only two of IMSA's events were there more than three entrants to the Prototype Challenge class. Besides French and O'Ward, only BAR1 Motorsports' Don Yount would attend every event. Indeed, this championship had fewer entries than Mahaveer Raghunathan's EuroBOSS Championship. Regardless, endurance racing is hard, and you still have to win the thing. O'Ward did so, with the help of French and occasionally his old Formula 4 NACAM sparring partner Garett Grist. Since 2017, the Prototype Challenge class has been discontinued (already, it was not included at four of IMSA's twelve events due presumably to sheer pointlessness), and James French has participated in a solitary NASCAR Xfinity race: the 2018 Jacksonville 180, in which he was classified in 38th of 40 cars after binning it on lap 8.

2018: Indy Lights
Races: 17
Wins: 9
Championship finish: 1st
Who beat Pato?: Nobody!

A second Championship title in two years is nothing to be sniffed at, even if it was another relatively uncompetitive field that Pato took advantage of. Realistically, there were only three real title challengers: twice runner-up Santiago Urrutia for Belardi Auto Racing, Pato himself for Andretti Autosport, and Colton Herta for Andretti's B-team, Steinbrenner Racing. Ultimately, a run of six wins out of the final eight races would prove too much for anybody to keep up with, and O'Ward took the crown. Both he and Herta would graduate to the IndyCar Series for the 2019 season, which certainly isn't a bad return on investment for a series which boasted only seven full-time runners. Fortunately, IndyCar streamed the "100 exciting laps from Iowa!" on YouTube, so we can all enjoy it together. Seriously, if anyone makes it to Lap 10 without falling asleep or breaking their computer, I'll buy them a cookie.

2019: IndyCar Series, FIA Formula Two Championship and Super Formula
Races: 9 so far
Best finish: 8th at COTA

So, finally, after a tin-pot pile of nothing Pato finally moved up to the big leagues with a most-of-the-time drive at Carlin for the IndyCar season. He started unexpectedly well with an eighth-place in the IndyCar Classic at COTA in a race that could only possibly be described as properly batshit insane. O'Ward benefitted from a contra-strategy in which he ran longer on Pirelli Blacks (hard tyres), which came good when Ericsson and Pigot binned each other out in the pit lane having both run ahead of O'Ward, before Hinchcliffe and Rosenqvist (both ahead of Pato) crashed causing a bunch of cars' strategies to be compromised, and Will Power (ahead of Pato) stalled in the pit lane. By driving his own race and not doing anything stupid, O'Ward did well. However, his Indy Lights title rival Colton Herta became IndyCar's youngest-ever race winner that day, two years Pato's junior.

Since then, Pato has not managed another IndyCar top-ten. This is not entirely his fault though, because Carlin are actually garbage. Even Fernando Alonso couldn't do anything good with a Carlin-prepared IndyCar. At around this point, O'Ward was hired by the Red Bull Junior Team and immediately sent to Formula Two for the weekend to be a replacement Raghunathan. He performed the role more accurately than anyone could have imagined by finishing last by a ridiculous margin and being generally awful. He has since been pulled from Formula Two and sent to Super Formula to be a sort of replacement Ticktum.

- - - - - - - - - -

So what am I saying?

Well, firstly that he has done absolutely nothing to warrant being anywhere bathplug near a Formula One car. I don't mean this derisively, but his only experience of being up against a reasonably good field of opposition has suggested that he's a driver of roughly Nabil Jeffri's level. If the Super Licence system were to grant him the required points to be anywhere near a Toro Rosso drive when Jake Dennis is ineligible then the system isn't doing what it's supposed to do. Which it's not. But in another way too.
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Re: Who will be Red Bull's drivers next ... week?

Post by Faustus »

That Nobody chap did well 2 years in a row, didn’t he?
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Re: Who will be Red Bull's drivers next ... week?

Post by dinizintheoven »

Aislabie wrote:Well, having a bit of a dive through Pato's palmarès, it does seem to have been judiciously manicured with the scrupulous care of the latest "unbeaten" boxing prospect to appear with a 12-0 record, only to get put on his arse by some 34-year-old hardman with bad tattoos that you'd never mention to his face.

Initially, I thought that might have been a dig at Anthony Joshua after his last fight, but on closer inspection it's closer to the story of Audley Harrison. Who remembers him now?

Aislabie wrote:Fortunately, IndyCar streamed the "100 exciting laps from Iowa!" on YouTube, so we can all enjoy it together. Seriously, if anyone makes it to Lap 10 without falling asleep or breaking their computer, I'll buy them a cookie.[/url]

Accepting said challenge, did I really just watch a 37-minute race with seven cars and only one overtake? It was a bit like the 2005 US Grand Prix on an oval.

Anyway, for getting through the entire race still awake and with the computer still 100% intact, you owe me an entire packet of Ginger Nuts.
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Re: Who will be Red Bull's drivers next ... week?

Post by You-Gee-Eee-Day »

dinizintheoven wrote:Accepting said challenge, did I really just watch a 37-minute race with seven cars and only one overtake? It was a bit like the 2005 US Grand Prix on an oval.

Anyway, for getting through the entire race still awake and with the computer still 100% intact, you owe me an entire packet of Ginger Nuts.


Technically, US 2005 DID take place on an oval... or at least part of one. :P That was the problem.
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Re: Who will be Red Bull's drivers next ... week?

Post by Aislabie »

dinizintheoven wrote:Accepting said challenge, did I really just watch a 37-minute race with seven cars and only one overtake? It was a bit like the 2005 US Grand Prix on an oval.

Anyway, for getting through the entire race still awake and with the computer still 100% intact, you owe me an entire packet of Ginger Nuts.

I am incredibly impressed. I owe you a prize for sure; not 100% sure how we will resolve this but you definitely deserve a reward for such selfless suffering
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Re: Who will be Red Bull's drivers next ... week?

Post by Rob Dylan »

Aislabie wrote:
dinizintheoven wrote:Accepting said challenge, did I really just watch a 37-minute race with seven cars and only one overtake? It was a bit like the 2005 US Grand Prix on an oval.

Anyway, for getting through the entire race still awake and with the computer still 100% intact, you owe me an entire packet of Ginger Nuts.

I am incredibly impressed. I owe you a prize for sure; not 100% sure how we will resolve this but you definitely deserve a reward for such selfless suffering
How about a delicious crate of Rich Energy?
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Re: Who will be Red Bull's drivers next ... week?

Post by Bobby Doorknobs »

I just want to address one point:

Aislabie wrote:[Pato's] only experience of being up against a reasonably good field of opposition has suggested that he's a driver of roughly Nabil Jeffri's level.

While I agree he's probably not ready for F1, I find this conclusion to be totally absurd. Now, I can only really speak about his IndyCar performances, but what he's shown so far is that he's really damned good, and Red Bull's interest in him is not unfounded.

You've skipped over his début race at Sonoma last year, where he not only outqualified and finished ahead of his teammate Herta (who is also a very big deal right now), he took the Harding car into the Fast Six (something neither Gabby Chaves nor Conor Daly could manage all year) and achieved the team's best finish of the season.

You put a lot of focus on his race in Austin (even seemingly writing it off as luck of the draw) and ignore his other impressive performances since, such as the second Detroit race where he came from a lap down to finish 11th after the first lap mélée. Or how about the Indy GP, where he was running second and looking like a contender for the win before tyre pressure issues dropped him back, not to mention that he got into that position from the very back of the field? And in general he's been absolutely dominating Chilton in qualifying (and races when things have gone his way) and getting into the top ten more often than not.

Then there's your points on his age, namely:

1. Max Verstappen already being an F1 driver at the same age Pato was when he was in Pro Mazda
2. Colton Herta being an IndyCar race winner at an age two years younger (this is false by the way, the age difference is less than one year)

Well, to be blunt, I don't really see how these are relevant.

And as for his F2 weekend, I'd say he did pretty great given the circumstances. Lando Norris wasn't much better when he was parachuted into Campos.
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Re: Who will be Red Bull's drivers next ... week?

Post by Pacific Edge »

Subject: Who will be Red Bull's drivers next ... week?

FullMetalJack wrote:Vitantonio Liuzzi only needs one more top 6 finish doesn't he......


Looks like even Liuzzi has occupied these days.

Gasly must be laughing it up, the RBR program doesn't have an FIA certified replacement (had this been a few years ago, he would be sweating bullets). Alonso won't go anywhere near Milton Keynes while Verstappen is there, and has already been mentioned, Honda won't want him there either. Ricciardo seems to have burned his bridges, so that rules him out. The only two midfield drivers that could be on the market are Grosjean and Magnussen, and I doubt at this point Marko would be interested in either of them. Doubt RBR would want to put Albon in with his limited experience (Based on how Gasly is doing). So it all comes down to Kvyat, and basically, he would have to have a stellar second half of the season and Gasly flop. So I think Gasly should give thanks that he is in the RBR now while there's a perfect storm preventing him from being replaced.
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Re: Who will be Red Bull's drivers next ... week?

Post by Aislabie »

Simtek wrote:I just want to address one point:

Aislabie wrote:[Pato's] only experience of being up against a reasonably good field of opposition has suggested that he's a driver of roughly Nabil Jeffri's level.

Ah, yeah, I could have worded that better but my point wasn't meant to be saying that he is definitely garbage, just that there's not a great deal in his record to suggest that he isn't.

I was simply amazed when I looked into his record the extent to which it had been massaged by beating up on genuinely terrible opposition. At that point, it doesn't really matter whether someone's a Nabil Jeffri beating up on a Jason Tahinci, or whether they're more of a Carlos Sainz doing the same thing. The outcome would still be P1 versus P2.

Similarly, I would probably be against those series contributing Super Licence points in their current form, although I am similarly opposed to the Super Licence system generally which seems to be excessively restrictive given that it's in teams' best interests anyhow to employ the best drivers available and that on occasion, the Super Licence system may actually be hindering that.

And my points about his age were not "well, he should be a Max Verstappen by now" - they were "he was very young when he was getting beaten by Garett Grist, but I don't feel this should absolve him from all criticism". And in assessing his Indycar performances, the goal was to show that it's exceptionally difficult to draw any sort of conclusion given that his best performance benefited hugely from drivers falling off the track in improbable ways, but that he's also been consistently hobbled by Carlin giving him a shitbox to drive.

So if I may re-write my conclusion now that I'm operating on the correct amount of sleep:

Pato O'Ward may be excellent, but there's nothing in his record to suggest he's significantly better than a driver of Nabil Jeffri's level. It's a case study in the Super Licence system not serving to properly distinguish drivers who are best able to make the step up to Formula One, and when someone's results are so incomprehensible I better trust Helmut Marko to decide whether he's ready than an arbitrary FIA points table.
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Re: Who will be Red Bull's drivers next ... week?

Post by mario »

Pacific 777 wrote:Subject: Who will be Red Bull's drivers next ... week?

FullMetalJack wrote:Vitantonio Liuzzi only needs one more top 6 finish doesn't he......


Looks like even Liuzzi has occupied these days.

Gasly must be laughing it up, the RBR program doesn't have an FIA certified replacement (had this been a few years ago, he would be sweating bullets). Alonso won't go anywhere near Milton Keynes while Verstappen is there, and has already been mentioned, Honda won't want him there either. Ricciardo seems to have burned his bridges, so that rules him out. The only two midfield drivers that could be on the market are Grosjean and Magnussen, and I doubt at this point Marko would be interested in either of them. Doubt RBR would want to put Albon in with his limited experience (Based on how Gasly is doing). So it all comes down to Kvyat, and basically, he would have to have a stellar second half of the season and Gasly flop. So I think Gasly should give thanks that he is in the RBR now while there's a perfect storm preventing him from being replaced.

That is probably one of the factors that is keeping Gasly in the seat, especially because, if Gasly does get booted out of the team, it potentially just shifts the problem of finding a replacement driver back down to Toro Rosso (unless Gasly switched with one of the two Toro Rosso drivers). That said, I don't think that Gasly can necessarily be completely confident that Red Bull wouldn't break with tradition and hire somebody outside of their programme if his performances were dire enough.

Furthermore, whilst Red Bull might not have an FIA certified replacement ready right now, that might only last until the end of September.

Whilst the focus has been on O'Ward recently, what has been forgotten is that Red Bull signed Juri Vips up to their programme in November last year. Having won the Italian Formula 4 championship in 2017 and scored 4th in the European Formula 3 championship in 2018, I think that he is currently on 22 superlicence points (12 from 2017 and 10 from 2018).

It does depend on him keeping hold of at least 3rd place in the Formula 3 Championship, which he is currently managing - but, if he does manage to do that, then by September this year he would be on 42 superlicence points (as the Formula 3 Championship gives 20 points for 3rd place in the championship).

If Red Bull were really committed to it, then in theory they could potentially get a superlicence for Vips in early October - a possible move would then be Vips to Toro Rosso, with one of the Toro Rosso drivers then moving up to replace Gasly. The chances of that happening seem to be rather low to me, but it is a way that Red Bull could theoretically get a junior driver into F1 before the end of the season.
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Re: Who will be Red Bull's drivers next ... week?

Post by Aislabie »

mario wrote:Juri Vips

I can't pretend to know a great deal about Juri Vips, but I'm always in favour of getting some new flags into F1. He's also won half of this year's feature races which must be encouraging.

Also, his F4 title came against a decent field given the level generally associated with F4. Aberdein, Armstrong and Correa stand out at a quick glance.
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