2019 Grand Prix of the Americas discussion thread

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dr-baker
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2019 Grand Prix of the Americas discussion thread

Post by dr-baker »

Some drivers have been getting the hump with the bumps on the Texan track surface (here's looking at you, HAM and PER), while others have said that they prefer this to a video game level of smoothness (ref: the Honey Badger). Wonder why it is more of an issue this year? Wonder if there is a reference to a 2005 Black Eyed Peas song somewhere in all this?
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Re: 2019 Grand Prix of the Americas discussion thread

Post by IceG »

dr-baker wrote:Wonder why it is more of an issue this year?


The Sky team are reporting that there is an on-going issue with subsidence at the track and it will require resurfacing before next year because they are all out of depth to scrape it flat.

The head-on shots of the Mercedes and Haas coming uphill into the first corner really show how bouncy it is.
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Re: 2019 Grand Prix of the Americas discussion thread

Post by mario »

IceG wrote:
dr-baker wrote:Wonder why it is more of an issue this year?


The Sky team are reporting that there is an on-going issue with subsidence at the track and it will require resurfacing before next year because they are all out of depth to scrape it flat.

The head-on shots of the Mercedes and Haas coming uphill into the first corner really show how bouncy it is.

There are some areas where it has been especially extreme - I believe that there are some areas of the track in Turn 1 which are thought to have settled by about 0.5m, and one Spanish commentator who walked around the track recently showed where the track surface was cracking and splitting apart due to differential settlement.

The MotoGP riders have been very critical of the condition of the track - they were already complaining last year, saying that the surface was so uneven that they were struggling to keep control of the bikes, and this year it seems to be even worse. As I understand it, the geology of Austin means that the underlying soils are particularly prone to wetting induced expansion and collapse, meaning that there can be rather sudden volume changes in the soil - which, in turn, seems to be causing the problems experienced at the track.
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Re: 2019 Grand Prix of the Americas discussion thread

Post by IceG »

See here re the soils of Travis county: https://www.nrcs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_ ... Travis.pdf

I believe COTA is south-west of Austin about 5-10km south of the Colorado River so see page 9.

Clays (depending on their type) are indeed susceptible to shrink-swell causing subsidence. But I heard (again via Sky) that the subsidence is most prevalent in the areas which are artificially landscaped to create height changes (like up into turn 1). Sounds like the soils, sediments and whatever building detritus they dumped up there are settling. The lack of trees, shrubs, etc. doesn't help.

And here is more if you are particularly interested and have an academic login:
https://www-jstor-org.libproxy.ucl.ac.u ... 0d3cae0ab9

Essentially the circuit is built on unconsolidated land with a higher degree of landslip risk than other areas of the county.
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Re: 2019 Grand Prix of the Americas discussion thread

Post by dr-baker »

Thank you for your informed and informative answers.
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Re: 2019 Grand Prix of the Americas discussion thread

Post by CaptainGetz12 »

IceG wrote:See here re the soils of Travis county: https://www.nrcs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_ ... Travis.pdf

I believe COTA is south-west of Austin about 5-10km south of the Colorado River so see page 9.

Clays (depending on their type) are indeed susceptible to shrink-swell causing subsidence. But I heard (again via Sky) that the subsidence is most prevalent in the areas which are artificially landscaped to create height changes (like up into turn 1). Sounds like the soils, sediments and whatever building detritus they dumped up there are settling. The lack of trees, shrubs, etc. doesn't help.

And here is more if you are particularly interested and have an academic login:
https://www-jstor-org.libproxy.ucl.ac.u ... 0d3cae0ab9

Essentially the circuit is built on unconsolidated land with a higher degree of landslip risk than other areas of the county.


Some of the teams were testing the 2020 tire compounds during Free Practice and complained of the tires feeling "weird". Is it actually the tires feeling weird or is it because of the track subsiding?

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14694 ... n-to-judge
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Re: 2019 Grand Prix of the Americas discussion thread

Post by mario »

IceG wrote:See here re the soils of Travis county: https://www.nrcs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_ ... Travis.pdf

I believe COTA is south-west of Austin about 5-10km south of the Colorado River so see page 9.

Clays (depending on their type) are indeed susceptible to shrink-swell causing subsidence. But I heard (again via Sky) that the subsidence is most prevalent in the areas which are artificially landscaped to create height changes (like up into turn 1). Sounds like the soils, sediments and whatever building detritus they dumped up there are settling. The lack of trees, shrubs, etc. doesn't help.

And here is more if you are particularly interested and have an academic login:
https://www-jstor-org.libproxy.ucl.ac.u ... 0d3cae0ab9

Essentially the circuit is built on unconsolidated land with a higher degree of landslip risk than other areas of the county.

That certainly can't help, though the mention that it is the areas where they have been raising the original ground level makes me wonder if there might be an element of improper construction control when placing the fill, particularly if they were re-using the excavated material from site (which I suspect they might have, given the cost of removing it otherwise). Some of those issues sound like they could be due to problems with compacting the embankment fill, although the choice of fill material would contribute to that - is there any evidence of attempted remedial works, such as lime stabilisation, when they were constructing the track?
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Re: 2019 Grand Prix of the Americas discussion thread

Post by IceG »

Quoting from this article about remediation this winter...

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/cota ... 45/?nrt=54

"There’s been some washout around pipes. There are pipes under the track, and in 2015 the water followed those pipes, not just inside but around them. It caused erosion that left this void, and then you get some heaving and shrinking."

It sounds like the pipes were not bedded correctly. Presumably a trench was dug, the pipes laid in and the fill pushed back on top. If there was insufficient chemical or mechanical consolidation then the back-fill would be washed away more easily than the surrounding material. Sounds .like an engineering problem rather than a geological one.
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Re: 2019 Grand Prix of the Americas discussion thread

Post by rachel1990 »

Well That's Vettel Out. The bumps caught him out
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Re: 2019 Grand Prix of the Americas discussion thread

Post by dr-baker »

Is there a chance that Vettel's slow pace prior to his suspension failure could be due to a suspension issue? Sky Sports suggested that it was a tyre warming up issue, and Vettel had understeer, but could it all be linked together?

Oh, and congratulations to Lewis Hamilton on his title win.
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Re: 2019 Grand Prix of the Americas discussion thread

Post by mario »

dr-baker wrote:Is there a chance that Vettel's slow pace prior to his suspension failure could be due to a suspension issue? Sky Sports suggested that it was a tyre warming up issue, and Vettel had understeer, but could it all be linked together?

Oh, and congratulations to Lewis Hamilton on his title win.

I can see why Sky would have initially thought that, since it seems that Leclerc was also struggling on the opening lap, but I agree that there is a strong likelihood that Vettel's problems were exacerbated by damage to the rear suspension.
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Re: 2019 Grand Prix of the Americas discussion thread

Post by UncreativeUsername37 »

I really shouldn't be thinking "yep, pretty cool" at someone winning a sixth world championship, but I've got so used to Hamilton just being the champion... the same thing happened with Vettel, and someone who's been watching for longer could say the same about Schumacher.

It felt weird when Hamilton had three, four, and five titles—matching Stewart for most title-decorated British driver, surpassing him, and matching Fangio—but the sixth doesn't feel so strange because his career feels... Schumachery. Five titles with the same team. Not to say they're undeserved.
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Re: 2019 Grand Prix of the Americas discussion thread

Post by Fetzie »

UncreativeUsername37 wrote:I really shouldn't be thinking "yep, pretty cool" at someone winning a sixth world championship, but I've got so used to Hamilton just being the champion... the same thing happened with Vettel, and someone who's been watching for longer could say the same about Schumacher.

It felt weird when Hamilton had three, four, and five titles—matching Stewart for most title-decorated British driver, surpassing him, and matching Fangio—but the sixth doesn't feel so strange because his career feels... Schumachery. Five titles with the same team. Not to say they're undeserved.


I mean, there was another driver in that car that didn't win the championship in those seasons (and Rosberg only won by 5 points in 2016).
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Re: 2019 Grand Prix of the Americas discussion thread

Post by Wallio »

Fetzie wrote: I mean, there was another driver in that car that didn't win the championship in those seasons (and Rosberg only won by 5 points in 2016).


Not to single you out Fetzie, but I have seen this line quite a bit online lately. I do find it interesting that this argument never once came up during the Schumi years. And I think that is because I think its quite a statement on people's thoughts on Ruben's abilities. I don't think anyone really holds him to the same level as Rosberg or Bottas
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Re: 2019 Grand Prix of the Americas discussion thread

Post by Fetzie »

Wallio wrote:
Fetzie wrote: I mean, there was another driver in that car that didn't win the championship in those seasons (and Rosberg only won by 5 points in 2016).


Not to single you out Fetzie, but I have seen this line quite a bit online lately. I do find it interesting that this argument never once came up during the Schumi years. And I think that is because I think its quite a statement on people's thoughts on Ruben's abilities. I don't think anyone really holds him to the same level as Rosberg or Bottas


The team politics was different then. Schumacher's team mate was his wing-man, the support driver. There was an expectation, even an obligation to let Schumacher take the points in those years. If Hamilton and Bottas had been driving for Ferrari back in 2001-2004, there is no way that Bottas would have been allowed to race the team leader so hard this past Sunday, and he would have been ordered to hold position and defend against Verstappen in that case. The Mercedes drivers are treated rather equitably in comparison to some other past top-team pairings which is one of the reasons why Bottas and Rosberg are possibly held in higher regard.
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Re: 2019 Grand Prix of the Americas discussion thread

Post by Wallio »

Fetzie wrote: The team politics was different then. Schumacher's team mate was his wing-man, the support driver. There was an expectation, even an obligation to let Schumacher take the points in those years.


Very true, although I do think things were more open at Brawn, although by then Rubens was a broken man.
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Re: 2019 Grand Prix of the Americas discussion thread

Post by Klon »

Wallio wrote:
Fetzie wrote: The team politics was different then. Schumacher's team mate was his wing-man, the support driver. There was an expectation, even an obligation to let Schumacher take the points in those years.


Very true, although I do think things were more open at Brawn, although by then Rubens was a broken man.


If Brawn was open, then they were incompetent. Barrichello was basically put in a number two spot because of faulty equipment and awful strategy calls.
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Re: 2019 Grand Prix of the Americas discussion thread

Post by mario »

Klon wrote:
Wallio wrote:
Fetzie wrote: The team politics was different then. Schumacher's team mate was his wing-man, the support driver. There was an expectation, even an obligation to let Schumacher take the points in those years.

Very true, although I do think things were more open at Brawn, although by then Rubens was a broken man.

If Brawn was open, then they were incompetent. Barrichello was basically put in a number two spot because of faulty equipment and awful strategy calls.

The team was extremely limited on the equipment that they did have at the time though - late in the season, when Barrichello crashed his car at the Singapore GP, that accident basically used up most of the spare parts that the team had left, not to mention the only spare chassis they had left. It might seem like incompetence, but it might equally be an element of the team scraping together that they did have left, because they weren't left with much due to the way in which Honda cut the team loose.
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Re: 2019 Grand Prix of the Americas discussion thread

Post by Klon »

Obviously Brawn's pseudo-budget made the spare parts situation challenging, but I am also refering to the persistent clutch problems that account for basically 15-20 lost WDC points alone (in a title race decided by 18 points) and I am sorry, if a guy who had started over 260 Grands Prix by that point and has not had a reputation as an awful starter suddenly develops severe issues at race starts, I for one am going to blame the team and its inability to fix this. And that's before we get into strategy mistakes and the less said about that Nürburgring debacle, the better for us all.
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