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Re: 2021 Discussion Thread - Azerbaijan GP discussion!

PostPosted: 06 Jun 2021, 14:41
by Barbazza
I wouldn't be at all surprised if that was the case. Certainly MIchael Masi seems to be in 'yeah, whatever' mode judging by the conversation we heard today...

Re: 2021 Discussion Thread - Azerbaijan GP discussion!

PostPosted: 06 Jun 2021, 14:42
by Rob Dylan
That was a race in very serious danger of angering almost everyone.

If anyone other than Pérez had won it would have been a travesty. Max crashed, he was out, they shouldn't have red-flagged it to allow him to win. They also shouldn't have restarted the race after the red flag. They should have just done what they've always done and put the safety car out, and get them to safely make their way to the finish line.

I have the feeling that many people's joy out of those last two laps was just from seeing Hamilton finish outside the points. If it were Pérez or Vettel in 15th come race end there would have been a lot more sour faces I'm sure :x

Re: 2021 Discussion Thread - Azerbaijan GP discussion!

PostPosted: 06 Jun 2021, 15:46
by IceG
I would swear I heard a very worried-sounding Stroll say "red flag - get me out of here" while he sat in his stationary car while other cars whizzed past at 200mph. A not unreasonable request under the circumstances.

Would be interesting to know why it was handled under yellows while Max's incident needed reds.

IMHO Stroll's should have been a red flag too.

Re: 2021 Discussion Thread - Azerbaijan GP discussion!

PostPosted: 06 Jun 2021, 16:05
by Paul Hayes
Well, that was a pretty good one!

I was surprised to see the BBC News Online report describe it as a "snorefest" before the incidents, as I still found it to be an engaging race, but the safety car and then of course the red flag and restart did ratchet up the drama. I'm glad they did go for the red flag option rather than ending it under the safety car.

I'm also glad both Verstappen and Hamilton failed to score, as obviously had it just been one or the other it would have dented this great title fight they currently have.

Amazing to think that had there been another lap or two, Vettel might have won it!

But many drivers and teams happy after a good day, and lots of drama.

There was a superb moment I really loved just before the final restart, with about a minute and a half to go on the countdown timer, when the pitlane seemed to fall silent and you got various shots of drivers and mechanics poised and ready, with an odd feeling of stillness and quiet, before the engines all then started firing into life. Loved that.

Re: 2021 Discussion Thread - Azerbaijan GP discussion!

PostPosted: 06 Jun 2021, 21:52
by mario
IceG wrote:I would swear I heard a very worried-sounding Stroll say "red flag - get me out of here" while he sat in his stationary car while other cars whizzed past at 200mph. A not unreasonable request under the circumstances.

Would be interesting to know why it was handled under yellows while Max's incident needed reds.

IMHO Stroll's should have been a red flag too.

He did indeed say that, and I don't blame him for being scared of being hit by another driver whilst being stranded on the straight.

As for why that wasn't a red flag situation, we've now had Masi come out after the race and strongly indicate that the reason why those two events were treated differently was "the show".

He's confirmed that he didn't red flag the race when Stroll crashed because "in the middle of the race, there was more than enough time, and space on the right-hand side of the track when we were recovering it" - basically, the attitude was that he didn't want to stop the race with a red flag, so they used yellow flags, and then the safety car, to keep the race going.

However, in the case of Verstappen, as they wouldn't be able to clear the track in time for the race to finish without a safety car, Masi then decided that it would be "in the interests of the sport" to stop the race and then restart it so it could be completed under green flag conditions - basically, the desire to create more action by restarting the race became the overriding priority.

Re: 2021 Discussion Thread - Azerbaijan GP discussion!

PostPosted: 06 Jun 2021, 22:41
by Miguel98
mario wrote:
IceG wrote:I would swear I heard a very worried-sounding Stroll say "red flag - get me out of here" while he sat in his stationary car while other cars whizzed past at 200mph. A not unreasonable request under the circumstances.

Would be interesting to know why it was handled under yellows while Max's incident needed reds.

IMHO Stroll's should have been a red flag too.

He did indeed say that, and I don't blame him for being scared of being hit by another driver whilst being stranded on the straight.

As for why that wasn't a red flag situation, we've now had Masi come out after the race and strongly indicate that the reason why those two events were treated differently was "the show".

He's confirmed that he didn't red flag the race when Stroll crashed because "in the middle of the race, there was more than enough time, and space on the right-hand side of the track when we were recovering it" - basically, the attitude was that he didn't want to stop the race with a red flag, so they used yellow flags, and then the safety car, to keep the race going.

However, in the case of Verstappen, as they wouldn't be able to clear the track in time for the race to finish without a safety car, Masi then decided that it would be "in the interests of the sport" to stop the race and then restart it so it could be completed under green flag conditions - basically, the desire to create more action by restarting the race became the overriding priority.


Do you have a link for that, mario?

EDIT: Nevermind, found it. https://www.racefans.net/2021/06/06/why-verstappens-crash-caused-a-red-flag-but-strolls-didnt/

Oh my god. So did he look at the ratings NASCAR pull these days and thought "yes, this is the future of the sport"?

Re: 2021 Discussion Thread - Azerbaijan GP discussion!

PostPosted: 07 Jun 2021, 10:45
by razta

Maaak's reaction..

Re: 2021 Discussion Thread - Azerbaijan GP discussion!

PostPosted: 07 Jun 2021, 10:51
by UncreativeUsername37
Rob Dylan wrote:I have the feeling that many people's joy out of those last two laps was just from seeing Hamilton finish outside the points. If it were Pérez or Vettel in 15th come race end there would have been a lot more sour faces I'm sure

This is pretty much me, but not out of a dislike for Hamilton. I'm glad that after Verstappen suffered a totally undeserved retirement, the points between them ended up not changing.

Re: 2021 Discussion Thread - Azerbaijan GP discussion!

PostPosted: 07 Jun 2021, 13:23
by Freeze-O-Kimi
For those who haven’t seen it, click here to see Bottas’s restart. It left me wondering if he’s even trying anymore

https://twitter.com/southbearyt/status/ ... 91809?s=21

Re: 2021 Discussion Thread - Azerbaijan GP discussion!

PostPosted: 08 Jun 2021, 08:16
by Miguel98


Yeah. This men isn't competent for this job.

Re: 2021 Discussion Thread - Azerbaijan GP discussion!

PostPosted: 08 Jun 2021, 09:02
by Rob Dylan
Masi has been really building up that reputation slowly to be a Reject of the Year candidate actually. If he keeps up this level of tomfoolery for the rest of the year I would say he's on the podium at least.

Re: 2021 Discussion Thread - Azerbaijan GP discussion!

PostPosted: 09 Jun 2021, 10:29
by Ducktanian
I do wonder if theres going to be some kind of response from the drivers in regards to these issues, or what kind of response that would be.

Re: 2021 Discussion Thread - Azerbaijan GP discussion!

PostPosted: 09 Jun 2021, 17:55
by mario
Ducktanian wrote:I do wonder if theres going to be some kind of response from the drivers in regards to these issues, or what kind of response that would be.

I hope that there is a sharp response, but I honestly wouldn't put it past the FIA to have hinted to the drivers that any such move would see them slapped with penalties for "bringing the sport into disrepute" in order to scare them off from that.

Re: 2021 Discussion Thread - Azerbaijan GP discussion!

PostPosted: 11 Jun 2021, 19:37
by Ciaran
dr-baker wrote:
Ciaran wrote:What's the point of a restart, we've got >90% of the race done FFS!

Hamilton making a mistake was the point of it. It ain't over till the chequered flag waves.

Yeah, I guess that'll teach me to shoot my mouth off. You could tell I was a tad salty about witnessing a potential deciding point in an 8th Hamilton title, and fearing that he was going to have another win fall into his lap by slipstreaming Perez at the end of L50.

Re: 2021 Discussion Thread - Azerbaijan GP discussion!

PostPosted: 12 Jun 2021, 18:25
by Bleu
We'll see what happens if we have late safety car for non-dangerous incident, like Bahrain GP 2019.

Re: 2021 Discussion Thread - Azerbaijan GP discussion!

PostPosted: 16 Jun 2021, 18:09
by dinizintheoven
French driver hitches himself to Les Nouveaux Bleus in a move that will shock nobody...

...unless you thought that French driver was Pierre Gasly, who will presumably have to wait for a certain two-time World Champion to retire before he can make the same move, by which time he may have gone elsewhere.

Re: 2021 Discussion Thread - Azerbaijan GP discussion!

PostPosted: 17 Jun 2021, 16:21
by Wallio
dinizintheoven wrote:French driver hitches himself to Les Nouveaux Bleus in a move that will shock nobody...

...unless you thought that French driver was Pierre Gasly, who will presumably have to wait for a certain two-time World Champion to retire before he can make the same move, by which time he may have gone elsewhere.


Am I the only one who thinks this is a rather.......strange choice for Alpine, especially with who will be available in the next few silly seasons? I mean a one-year deal to bridge the new regs? Sure. But three years? For Ocon? That's certainly a choice.

Re: 2021 Discussion Thread - Azerbaijan GP discussion!

PostPosted: 17 Jun 2021, 18:43
by RAK
Wallio wrote:
dinizintheoven wrote:French driver hitches himself to Les Nouveaux Bleus in a move that will shock nobody...

...unless you thought that French driver was Pierre Gasly, who will presumably have to wait for a certain two-time World Champion to retire before he can make the same move, by which time he may have gone elsewhere.


Am I the only one who thinks this is a rather.......strange choice for Alpine, especially with who will be available in the next few silly seasons? I mean a one-year deal to bridge the new regs? Sure. But three years? For Ocon? That's certainly a choice.


Considering that there isn't much to suggest that there's a wealth of talent among Formula 2 in general and less among their current F2 test driver - Zhou may be at the top of the Formula 2 Championship standings at the moment, but I can't say I rate him - Ocon would definitely represent a better choice for the seat than what they have coming down the pipeline.

Re: 2021 Discussion Thread - Azerbaijan GP discussion!

PostPosted: 17 Jun 2021, 19:03
by Wallio
RAK wrote:
Wallio wrote:
dinizintheoven wrote:French driver hitches himself to Les Nouveaux Bleus in a move that will shock nobody...

...unless you thought that French driver was Pierre Gasly, who will presumably have to wait for a certain two-time World Champion to retire before he can make the same move, by which time he may have gone elsewhere.


Am I the only one who thinks this is a rather.......strange choice for Alpine, especially with who will be available in the next few silly seasons? I mean a one-year deal to bridge the new regs? Sure. But three years? For Ocon? That's certainly a choice.


Considering that there isn't much to suggest that there's a wealth of talent among Formula 2 in general and less among their current F2 test driver - Zhou may be at the top of the Formula 2 Championship standings at the moment, but I can't say I rate him - Ocon would definitely represent a better choice for the seat than what they have coming down the pipeline.


Very true, but is he better than Gasly, Kimi, Bottas, or Perez? I'd personally say no. All will be available next year, and Alpine certainly isn't shy about breaking the bank for drivers, so they could lure any one of those IMO. I suppose the devil you know is better and all that, but still.

Re: 2021 Discussion Thread - Azerbaijan GP discussion!

PostPosted: 17 Jun 2021, 20:03
by Rob Dylan
I must say I'm with Wallio on this one. Three years for Ocon? They must know something we don't. Either that or they've been taking Alonso's praise for the guy a little too much to heart, overreacted, and then gave him a three year contract!

I expect an article on Motorsport tomorrow about Alonso retracted all his positive statements about Esteban just out of jealousy that it wasn't him getting the extension :lol:

Re: 2021 Discussion Thread - Azerbaijan GP discussion!

PostPosted: 18 Jun 2021, 17:13
by Wallio
Bottas: Claims chassis is damaged/defective.

Mercedes: Makes a big public show of switching chassis for FP1/2.

Crofty and Di Resta: Make snide comments and take the piss out of it all day.

Bottas: Goes P1 in FP1, and is only .008 off P1 in FP2.

Lewis: Goes slower and complains "there is something wrong with the car man."

Mercedes/Crofty/Di Resta: Shocked Pikachu Face

Re: 2021 Discussion Thread - Azerbaijan GP discussion!

PostPosted: 18 Jun 2021, 18:37
by IceG
"In my personal opinion, as a driver, I would say first of all a tyre shouldn't fail depending on 1-2psi up or down on a certain pressure that Pirelli gives us." - Carlos Sainz

Absolutely.

“The pressures on the grid that were checked, were above the minimum. So yeah, I don't know what their expectations were. But I would imagine their expectations are that the pressure comes up. But that's exactly what happened with us.” - Otmar Szafnauer

I assume that Aston Martin have telemetry that supports what Szafnauer said and that it has been shared with the FIA and Pirelli. Even if the data is not from calibrated kit it must show the relative pressure changes.

Hope that the FIA put as much effort into monitoring and policing the tyre issue as they have with the bendy wings and track limits. Yes both of those things are important but tyre failures like those we saw at Baku are the sort of thing that surely everyone (drivers, teams, sponsors, TV and perhaps even Liberty) agrees must be fixed.

Re: 2021 Discussion Thread - Azerbaijan GP discussion!

PostPosted: 20 Jun 2021, 15:34
by Paul Hayes
That was another good one!

It was like a reversal of both Bahrain and Spain rolled into one. I had thought when the gap was stuck at five seconds for a while that Verstappen might not catch Hamilton, but in the end when he did get there the move was quite comfortable.

It feels rare that the action at the front towards the end means they don't get the chance to show passes further down the field in the last few laps!

Amazing and surprising after their recent races that Ferrari failed to score and finished well down.

Re: 2021 Discussion Thread - Azerbaijan GP discussion!

PostPosted: 22 Jun 2021, 02:25
by UncreativeUsername37
This is what two title contenders being so close does, it was a great race. And there was enough going on in the midfield that we weren't just waiting through a chasedown.

Re: 2021 Discussion Thread - Styrian GP discussion!

PostPosted: 27 Jun 2021, 15:40
by Paul Hayes
Not a bad little race - not the greatest, but plenty to hold the interest. It's becoming increasingly difficult to see Mercedes turning this around at this stage.

But still a long way to go, of course!

Re: 2021 Discussion Thread - Styrian GP discussion!

PostPosted: 27 Jun 2021, 16:02
by mario
Paul Hayes wrote:Not a bad little race - not the greatest, but plenty to hold the interest. It's becoming increasingly difficult to see Mercedes turning this around at this stage.

But still a long way to go, of course!

I doubt they will, and instead think it's more likely that we'll just see Red Bull progressively walk away with this and Verstappen go on to dominate the majority of the upcoming races for the rest of this season.

The development restrictions on the engine and on the chassis, and a set of regulations that arguably don't really help out a low rake car like Mercedes - as cynically suggested by Grosjean, intentionally so - inhibit their ability to develop their way out, especially as the budget cap also restricts them on that front too.

The only real change that is occurring this season will be a changed tyre carcass - it seems that Pirelli was already planning to introduce another iteration on the current tyres (which is itself already a modified carcass), but is potentially accelerating those changes following Baku.

However, the speculation is that the changes might be more favourable for Red Bull (due to the side effect of reducing the compliance of the tyre sidewall), so that change might, if anything, give them more of an advantage.

Re: 2021 Discussion Thread - Styrian GP discussion!

PostPosted: 27 Jun 2021, 22:52
by Miguel98
Was I the only one that seemed a bit confused by how the Pirelli's behaved today? I know that the italian marque has been under fire recently, but I felt that today the tyres were a shambles in performance and degradation.

Re: 2021 Discussion Thread - Styrian GP discussion!

PostPosted: 28 Jun 2021, 07:57
by IceG
Miguel98 wrote:Was I the only one that seemed a bit confused by how the Pirelli's behaved today? I know that the italian marque has been under fire recently, but I felt that today the tyres were a shambles in performance and degradation.


No tyres blew up. There were only two punctures, both caused by collisions. I saw very little sliding or spinning related to tyre degradation. All three compounds were used during the race, each in predictable circumstances. The only radio comments from the drivers that I heard were about expected life compared to the pit-stop plans.

I thought Pirelli had a quiet weekend which meant we could obsess about engine oils, flexi-wings and robotised pit-stops instead.

Re: 2021 Discussion Thread - Styrian GP discussion!

PostPosted: 04 Jul 2021, 17:18
by Enforcer
So I see there's a lot of "buh, they're not being let battle!!!" after the Norris and Perez penalties. Gonna disagree there. Surely knowing that another driver can't push you out off the outside if you're alongside them is encouragement to try a move rather than discouragement?

Russell proved you can defend T6 without putting the other car right into the gravel (although he did psuh v. close to it), so why couldn't Perez?

I suppose the issue of how much overlap makes it illegal for you to be pushed out is not clearly defined.

Re: 2021 Discussion Thread - Styrian GP discussion!

PostPosted: 04 Jul 2021, 17:36
by IceG
Enforcer wrote:So I see there's a lot of "buh, they're not being let battle!!!" after the Norris and Perez penalties.


I suspect we would not be having this conversation, nor would there have been penalties, had there been a nice smooth concrete run-off area. All those pebbles and that dust turn a nudge into a penalty.

It seems that, for the stewards at least, there is a choice between close tough racing with contact or track limits that actually have some effect when they are transgressed. Personally I saw nothing wrong with any of the overtakes and am in favour of gravel traps (or that surface they had in Paul Ricard) rather than run-off areas.

Re: 2021 Discussion Thread - Styrian GP discussion!

PostPosted: 05 Jul 2021, 09:20
by Miguel98
Masi has explained the reasoning behind the Pérez and Norris penalties on Sunday.

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/why-fia-is-unmoved-over-austrian-gp-penalty-criticism/6625956/

Now, I do understand the reasoning, even if I don't agree with the Lando penalty. He didn't exactly push Pérez wide - it was more a case of corner nature and, had Norris backed down, he would've lost the place. Pérez was also never ahead, so Norris was entitlled to that space anyway. Pérez was going for the "if gap, car" approach at that exact moment.

Of course, pushing wide should be penalized, but we've seen time and time again this happening and no penalties were given. Remember when Hamilton kept pushing Rosberg wide? When Nico did the same? Or Max Imola move? Now, taking to this, theres a very interesting quote on this news article that I find interesting:

"First corner, lap one, and you have to remember this from a team's perspective as well, that all lap one incidents are treated in a more lenient manner,” he said. “And that has been the case for a number of years under the let them race principles, let's call it.

“But each and every one, it's very difficult to try and compare. I know everyone likes to group everything, but it's very difficult to compare two completely different corners at Imola, and either Turns 4 or 6 here."



I find this interesting because, what is being said, is you can be as agressive as you wish on lap 1 basically. So why, over the years, have very agressive defensive moves (worse than what Norris did) - remember Verstappen's defensive maneuver on Kimi at Spa - mid-race been classified as "safe" and not penalizable?

And another thing. Norris move was on the SC restart. Wouldn't that technically account for lap one? We've seen SC restarts where similar moves happened - the only big difference is there was no gravel in the outside to punish the driver attempting the move. So, again: this whole grey area of stewarding goes unadressed and only causes more confusion and chaos once you analize it further.

Re: 2021 Discussion Thread - Styrian GP discussion!

PostPosted: 05 Jul 2021, 09:39
by IceG
Further to my comment above concerning the gravel's influence on the penalty decision...

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/why- ... m/6625949/

Now imagine that the outside of the turn in the Perez/Norris incident had been concrete run-off and Perez had driven around Norris. Would Perez not have had to give the place back for gaining an advantage by going off track?

Re: 2021 Discussion Thread - Styrian GP discussion!

PostPosted: 05 Jul 2021, 11:04
by Miguel98
IceG wrote:Further to my comment above concerning the gravel's influence on the penalty decision...

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/why- ... m/6625949/

Now imagine that the outside of the turn in the Perez/Norris incident had been concrete run-off and Perez had driven around Norris. Would Perez not have had to give the place back for gaining an advantage by going off track?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rLADm9oM8M&ab_channel=F1Abordo

Check turn 1 and you have your answer

Re: 2021 Discussion Thread - Styrian GP discussion!

PostPosted: 05 Jul 2021, 12:21
by IceG
Miguel98 wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rLADm9oM8M&ab_channel=F1Abordo

Check turn 1 and you have your answer


QED except Norris regained the position on merit having not lost drive on the bumps. Had he not it might have been a matter for the stewards.

Re: 2021 Discussion Thread - Styrian GP discussion!

PostPosted: 05 Jul 2021, 20:37
by mario
IceG wrote:
Miguel98 wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rLADm9oM8M&ab_channel=F1Abordo

Check turn 1 and you have your answer


QED except Norris regained the position on merit having not lost drive on the bumps. Had he not it might have been a matter for the stewards.

You would have thought that the stewards might step in if Perez had held onto the position after passing Norris at Turn 1. That said, if it was just a 5 second penalty, I would wager that Red Bull probably would have happily traded a 5 second penalty for Perez getting past Norris at that point, since he'd have had a chance of being able to pull out enough of a gap to hold the place anyway (plus the bonus of getting one more car ahead of Hamilton to widen the points gap even further).

I guess, though, that there is a certain irony in that Perez might not have been close enough to attempt that pass into Turn 4 if he'd not had that run up to Turn 3 that he got from going wide at Turn 1.

Re: 2021 Discussion Thread - Styrian GP discussion!

PostPosted: 16 Jul 2021, 06:35
by Rob Dylan
Today's storm in a teacup comes from Daniel Ricciardo being caught on microphone that something or other was "terrible. It’s shite, it’s worse" when standing next to the new 2022 car.

I can only assume he was talking about the new season of his favourite tv show, but folks are blowing it up to "2022 is going to be terrible because Daniel says so!"

Re: 2021 Discussion Thread - Styrian GP discussion!

PostPosted: 16 Jul 2021, 19:14
by Freeze-O-Kimi
It would sum up George Russell’s luck to an absolute tee if he finally finishes a race in the top 10 and yet only the first 3 get points and then finished 11th in the race where half the grid get points

Seriously though what are Mercedes waiting for? They can’t ignore this any longer. With Bottas again nowhere near the big two (yeah he’s being sacrificed but there’s a reason for that) I say get George in that car and Mercedes will be even stronger and it’ll give Hamilton something to think about

Re: 2021 Discussion Thread - Styrian GP discussion!

PostPosted: 17 Jul 2021, 00:18
by CaptainGetz12
Rob Dylan wrote:Today's storm in a teacup comes from Daniel Ricciardo being caught on microphone that something or other was "terrible. It’s shite, it’s worse" when standing next to the new 2022 car.

I can only assume he was talking about the new season of his favourite tv show, but folks are blowing it up to "2022 is going to be terrible because Daniel says so!"


Depends on the type of terrible. If it's lelrel, 2022 will be crazy. Anything but the dirty-air-laden cars of now.

Re: 2021 Discussion Thread - Styrian GP discussion!

PostPosted: 17 Jul 2021, 09:09
by IceG
Ok this thread seems to be morphing into the British GP discussion thread so...

FP1. The Sky commentators going crazy about all the action being compressed into just one hour. And then Sky slip in two 4 minute ad breaks, both of which missed important laps. Solution was to replay limited highlights in slo-mo, so missing yet another important lap. This format cannot support ad breaks during FP1.

Sprint Qualy. I quite like the dynamics of having all the cars on the same tyre compound in all sessions. Seemed to improve the spectacle somehow. This could work with non-sprint weekends.

FP2. IIUC the cars are in parc ferme conditions so no changes except front wing, diff, tyres and petrol. There will be long runs for tyre deg at different petrol loads and perhaps some work on alternative tyre choices for the sprint race (they can use whatever tyres they want I think). So is FP2 has the potential to be nought but a snooze-fest.

Post FP2 update: what a tedious waste of time, tyres and fuel that was.

Re: 2021 Discussion Thread - Styrian GP discussion!

PostPosted: 17 Jul 2021, 16:13
by Wallio
Rob Dylan wrote:Today's storm in a teacup comes from Daniel Ricciardo being caught on microphone that something or other was "terrible. It’s shite, it’s worse" when standing next to the new 2022 car.

I can only assume he was talking about the new season of his favourite tv show, but folks are blowing it up to "2022 is going to be terrible because Daniel says so!"



I mean if he was talking about that rainbow unicorn vomit livery they stuck on it, he's 100% right. It's amazing how much improved the car looked on Friday with all the teams releasing their own renders.