Proposal: changing the unrejectification criteria

The place for discussion of all aspects of the gprejects.com website
Post Reply
User avatar
Ferrim
Posts: 1922
Joined: 01 Apr 2009, 21:45

Proposal: changing the unrejectification criteria

Post by Ferrim »

Thinking about this, I've just thought about a little amendment that could be done to the unrejectification criteria, without pushing the bar too low and retrospectively unrejectifying many drivers from the past (although, after all, they were retrospectively made rejects in the first place!). The former criteria for unrejectification (ie. pre-2003) said that you needed to score more than 2 points; of course, that was for the 10-6-4-3-2-1 system. But what if we try to give some value to the positions lower than 6th, ie. down to 8th, 10th or something? So that you could unrejectify yourself scoring a good (and I mean really good) deal of lower positions. This would help with the perceived problems of today's ultrareliable cars.

Before 2003, 5th place was worth 2 points, and 6th place 1 point. From 2003 their value went up to 4 and 3, and since 2010 it is 10 and 8. You can see that while one 6th was worth exactly half than one 5th before 2003, now it's worth 80%, so the ratio has changed. We can't use the new scoring systems if we want to retain a balance between scoring points today and yesterday, and a new scoring system could always be introduced in the future. So we need something that doesn't rely in real world changes (just like the current system).

Let's say we wanted to reward positions lower than 6th, without changing a lot the proportions of the pre-2003 scoring system. Under that, 2nd place was worth 60% of a win, 3rd place 66,6% of 2nd, 4th 75% of 3rd, 5th 66,6% of 4th and 6th 50% of 5th. We see that, on average, each place was worth aproximately 2/3 of the previous one. The idea behind it was that you got more rewarded the higher you finished, not only in absolute terms but in relative terms. But because you "ran out of points" at the end of the scale, the percentage decreased to 50% between 6th and 5th, and 0% after that, instead of going up to something like 80% between 5th and 4th and 90% between 6th and 5th. This will always happen towards the end of the scale, because at some moment you have to give someone a single point and then the next one will score none (unless you want to give points to every possible finisher, but I guess none of us agree with that).

My goal is to come up with a system that rewards scorers down the order and keeps an increasing percentage ratio between positions, from 60% between first and second to something around 75% towards the end, before decreasing again because of the aforementioned reasons.

Before making any calculations I wanted to make sure that one 4th, one 5th plus one 6th and three 6ths remained viable ways to unrejectify yourself. As I changed the ratios, I was always going to change the balance of one 4th equalling three 6ths, one 5th and one 6th equaling three 6ths and so on, the balance upon which the unrejectification system was developped. But that doesn't really matter as long as the places you need remain unchanged. For example, if 4th place gives 8 points, 5th place gives 5 points and 6th place gives 3 points, and you place the unrejectification criteria on scoring 8 points, you still need three 6ths to escape rejectdom even though three 6ths are now better than a single 4th. A 5th and a 6th remain a valid road, even though three 6ths give you more points.

After making many calculations, I've come up with three possible alternatives: taking into account the top 8, the top 10 and the top 12. All of them follow the aforementioned rules. The different points awarded in each of the proposal are there to acommodate more people scoring points without breaking the balance and avoiding decimals.

Top 8:
Image

Top 10:
Image

Top 12:
Image

The tables are self-explanatory; the third column is the ratio between the points awarded for that position and those awarded for the previous one (just in case). The number of points awarded for 4th place is the minimum a driver needs to escape rejectdom, so it would 13, 23 and 47 under each of the systems. The important thing here, though, is not the points but the relative positions. A driver would no longer be a reject if he finished 4th; 5th and 6th; two times 5th; or three times 6th, exactly like it's always been.

But if we look at the "Top 10" system, now a driver could also unrejectify himself finishing in 7th place four times, or finishing three times 7th and two times 10th. But I can see two problems with changing the system: breaking with tradition, and having to take into account many more combinations. Also, for example, under this system Buemi would have unrejectified himself long ago, but he hasn't ever finished higher than 7th. Alex Zanardi would have nearly twice the amount of points needed, and even Luca Badoer would be out (26 points).

What do you think? How many of you are in favour of a change? My ratio scheme is not that interesting, but I think that any changes should retain the classical one 4th, one 5th plus one 6th and three 6ths ways to escape rejectdom. Alternative proposals would be interesting to read.
Go home, Bernie Ecclestone!

"There will be no other victory this year, I can tell you, more welcomed than this one" Bob Varsha, 1995 Canadian GP

F1 Rejects Forums – going off-topic since 2009!
User avatar
Nessafox
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 6249
Joined: 30 Nov 2009, 19:45
Location: Stupid, sexy Flanders.

Re: Proposal: changing the unrejectification criteria

Post by Nessafox »

Remember that readers should understand the system, and that not all readers are F1-freaks like us forum-ers.
So i'm saying, keep it simple.
I don't know what i want and i want it now!
User avatar
James1978
Posts: 3047
Joined: 26 Jul 2010, 18:46
Location: Darlington, NE England

Re: Proposal: changing the unrejectification criteria

Post by James1978 »

That's gone completely over my head! :)

One thing I thought is that someone had to get 3 points or more when the criteria was originally thought of (as there was no sign of a revised points system back in 2000), so why not keep it that way?

So any driver around in 2003 - 09 would need a 6th place or better, or a 7th and 8th, or 3 8ths to unrejectify themselves. Now it would be an 8th or better, or a 9th and 10th, or 3 10ths. Which I feel given increased reliability recently those placings are about as "worthy" as 3 points in "old money" were!
"Poor old Warwick takes it from behind all throughout this season". :) (Tony Jardine, 1988)
Phoenix
Posts: 7986
Joined: 21 Apr 2009, 13:58

Re: Proposal: changing the unrejectification criteria

Post by Phoenix »

While I support the motion of modifying the unrejectification criteria (HWNSNBM forbid!), I don't think drivers that were rejects back in the old points system should be unrejectified because of this.

My proposals are:
-For drivers between 2003 and 2009, they'd need three 7ths, two 6ths or a 5th to escape rejectdom. That means Antônio Pizzonia, Christijan Albers (lucky bastard!) and Kazuki Nakajima escape reject status.
-For drivers for 2010 onwards, the quotas are three 8ths, two 7ths or a 6th. If a driver has competed with both the 2003-2009 and the current systems, in the name of good will I'll take into account their results with the 2010 system. So, that means Vitantonio Liuzzi and Nico Hülkenberg save their ass.

As for the teams, I demand 10 points with the 2003-2009 system, and 18 points with the 2010 system. No teams are unrejectified as of yet.

I've made this criteria with my pure common sense (or sort of); I'm not very good at complicate calculations. If you have any complaints about my criteria, I don't want to hear them, so post them below.
User avatar
Ferrim
Posts: 1922
Joined: 01 Apr 2009, 21:45

Re: Proposal: changing the unrejectification criteria

Post by Ferrim »

Thank you for your contributions.

I don't feel happy with the idea of having different systems for different eras, partially because I like uniformity and partially because it makes it more complex. But I must say that Phoenix's proposal is not bad.

Anyway this is something that Jamie and Enoch would have to decide; I just thought it would be a good idea to have a formal discussion of the topic, because people use to comment on this.
Go home, Bernie Ecclestone!

"There will be no other victory this year, I can tell you, more welcomed than this one" Bob Varsha, 1995 Canadian GP

F1 Rejects Forums – going off-topic since 2009!
User avatar
DanielPT
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 6126
Joined: 30 Dec 2010, 18:44
Location: Porto, Portugal

Re: Proposal: changing the unrejectification criteria

Post by DanielPT »

I don't agree with a system that proposes Kazuki Nakajima to be unrejectified! :P

It is true that rejectification got harder these days, but today pay-drivers and rookies are, most of them, well proven in lower formulas and, given the professionalism of today teams, we have way less rejects to look to. So, currently, I think things are finely balanced.
Colin Kolles on F111, 2011 HRT challenger: The car doesn't look too bad; it looks like a modern F1 car.
User avatar
Yannick
Posts: 1449
Joined: 29 Mar 2009, 17:53

Re: Proposal: changing the unrejectification criteria

Post by Yannick »

No. Adjusting the points system every time a major manufacturer enters the sport is rejectful in itself.
There is no way to buy yourself out of being eligible to be profiled on this site. Yet, you can easily buy a profile: just buy yourself an F1 seat with a backmarker team. Isn't that also something?
"I don't think we should be used to finance (the manufacturers') R&D because they will produce that engine anyway" said Monisha Kaltenborn.
"You will never see a Mercedes using a Ferrari engine or the other way round."
User avatar
ADx_Wales
Posts: 2523
Joined: 05 Dec 2009, 19:37
Location: The Fortress of Sofatude, with a laptop and a penchant for buying now TV day passes for F1 races.

Re: Proposal: changing the unrejectification criteria

Post by ADx_Wales »

No Changing.

Kamui's unrejectification was the only glorious thing to happen at monaco, because we waited and WANTED it to happen for so long. Making it easier makes it less satisfying when it happens,
"The worst part of my body that hurt in the fire was my balls" Gerhard Berger on Imola 1989
Phoenix
Posts: 7986
Joined: 21 Apr 2009, 13:58

Re: Proposal: changing the unrejectification criteria

Post by Phoenix »

But this should remain as balanced as ever. No longer you can count on reliability issues from others to unrejectify yourself. Plus, with more places being awarded with points, that also affects the mentality and the way of devising a race by drivers and teams alike.

Furthermore, we're really looking at really rejectful drivers and especially teams. Do you think with my system it'll be that easy for Virgin and HRT to escape reject status? And what about Giorgio Pantano, Nicolas Kiesa, Justin Wilson, Gianmaria Bruni, HWNSNBM (ouch, that hurt!), Patrick Friesacher, Robert Doornbos, Sakon Yamamoto, Yuji Ide, Franck Montagny, Anthony Davidson, Sébastien Bourdais, Luca Badoer...even Sébastien Buemi and DJ Squire? Those ARE the guys we all revere as true rejects, and yet with my criteria they don't even come close to being saved (Albers making it by circunstance).
User avatar
WeirdKerr
Posts: 1864
Joined: 05 Apr 2009, 15:57
Location: on the edge of nowhere with a ludicrous grid penalty.....

Re: Proposal: changing the unrejectification criteria

Post by WeirdKerr »

Just because the points have changed doesnt mean that a driver finishing 7th 8th 9th or 10th is any better than drivers finishing in those positions in the days when those postions were out of the points.... so no, no need to change it appart from maybe bring in that gaining a pole position unrejectifies too (hello hulkenberg)
User avatar
Ferrim
Posts: 1922
Joined: 01 Apr 2009, 21:45

Re: Proposal: changing the unrejectification criteria

Post by Ferrim »

It's not the fact that the points have changed but that it's much more harder to finish 6th or better these days than it was 20 or even 10 years ago, because the reliability of the cars has improved so much.
Go home, Bernie Ecclestone!

"There will be no other victory this year, I can tell you, more welcomed than this one" Bob Varsha, 1995 Canadian GP

F1 Rejects Forums – going off-topic since 2009!
User avatar
ADx_Wales
Posts: 2523
Joined: 05 Dec 2009, 19:37
Location: The Fortress of Sofatude, with a laptop and a penchant for buying now TV day passes for F1 races.

Re: Proposal: changing the unrejectification criteria

Post by ADx_Wales »

WeirdKerr wrote:maybe bring in that gaining a pole position unrejectifies too (hello hulkenberg)


Big
Fat
No

:P

Not letting that git get away from rejectdom because he got a fluke pole.
"The worst part of my body that hurt in the fire was my balls" Gerhard Berger on Imola 1989
User avatar
Cynon
Posts: 3518
Joined: 29 Mar 2009, 00:33
Location: Chicago, Illinois
Contact:

Re: Proposal: changing the unrejectification criteria

Post by Cynon »

I am against anything that brings Scott Speed any closer to unrejectification. :evil:

Scott Speed finishing 5th in a NASCAR race was as close as I want him to ever unrejectifying himself in any major category. He's already got reject status in F1, NASCAR, and the IRL, his mission should be "Attain Reject Status in As Many Major Categories As Possible".
Check out the TM Master Cup Series on Youtube...
...or check out my random retro IndyCar clips.

Dr. Helmut Marko wrote: Finally we have an Australian in the team who can start a race well and challenge Vettel.
User avatar
Klon
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 7211
Joined: 28 Mar 2009, 17:07
Location: Schleswig-Holstein, FRG
Contact:

Re: Proposal: changing the unrejectification criteria

Post by Klon »

ADx_Wales wrote:Not letting that git get away from rejectdom because he got a fluke pole.


I'm living in a world of agreement here.
User avatar
Klon
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 7211
Joined: 28 Mar 2009, 17:07
Location: Schleswig-Holstein, FRG
Contact:

Re: Proposal: changing the unrejectification criteria

Post by Klon »

Cynon wrote:I am against anything that brings Scott Speed any closer to unrejectification. :evil:

Scott Speed finishing 5th in a NASCAR race was as close as I want him to ever unrejectifying himself in any major category. He's already got reject status in F1, NASCAR, and the IRL, his mission should be "Attain Reject Status in As Many Major Categories As Possible".


If the Portugal Feature Race would have been 5-10 laps longer, he'd also be an A1GP reject.
Phoenix
Posts: 7986
Joined: 21 Apr 2009, 13:58

Re: Proposal: changing the unrejectification criteria

Post by Phoenix »

WeirdKerr wrote:Just because the points have changed doesnt mean that a driver finishing 7th 8th 9th or 10th is any better than drivers finishing in those positions in the days when those postions were out of the points.... so no, no need to change it.


Yes, they are. And the teams they drive for are way better too.

Cynon wrote:I am against anything that brings Scott Speed any closer to unrejectification. :evil:

Scott Speed finishing 5th in a NASCAR race was as close as I want him to ever unrejectifying himself in any major category. He's already got reject status in F1, NASCAR, and the IRL, his mission should be "Attain Reject Status in As Many Major Categories As Possible".


My system is only for F1, calm down :lol: Scott Speed's status as an F1 reject is firmly set in stone forever.
Post Reply