Consultation: Advertising on GPR

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Consultation: Advertising on GPR

Post by DemocalypseNow »

Hello everyone,

I wanted to discuss with everyone the options & measures that can, or may need to be, taken to ensure GPR's existence remains sustainable going forward. This means I have to consider options I never ideally wanted to think about, but might still be the right choice to make in the long run. I am looking at options that would allow the website to help pay for itself, rather than depending on handouts.

One of these potential avenues is advertising on the website. I know, a scary word, alarm bells are rightly ringing. I wanted to explain the potential implementation of such a system before surprising everyone with it, and clear up a few potential misconceptions before they emerge. Especially as I hate the approach many webmasters take to serving up advertising.

The first point is the ad host. There are many ad-serving companies with low quality control on what adverts they serve up - laced with malware and exploits in the case of the worst offenders. We would be using Google AdSense only to ensure any adverts that are delivered are completely clean and safe.

The second point is the form these adverts would take. They would be exclusively non-intrusive in nature. No flash ads, no dynamic ads that get bigger or smaller based on whether you hover near them or not, nothing with audio or video. And not wedged into the middle of article flow either. They would come in the form of text only or a static image, constrained within their own pre-defined container. The idea is to be visible but not disruptive.

Below is an illustration of the most likely implementation of these adverts (click to view full-size);

Banner Advert
Sidebar Advert

In my opinion at least, this implementation does not affect the visibility or accessibility of content, and does not negatively affect the experience of using the website.

However, I can imagine this suggestion is going to be met with some resistance, hence why I figured it would be a good idea to discuss it before potentially implementing it. Do we agree or disagree this is the way forward to ensure we stay online? Is there a better method? I am open to suggestions.
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Re: Consultation: Advertising on GPR

Post by Aerond »

I don't oppose to it, and, if it means a more sustainable future for GPR, I support the idea.
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Re: Consultation: Advertising on GPR

Post by Bobby Doorknobs »

Biscione, if you feel it's necessary then by all means go for it. I tend to find adverts of this nature easy to ignore anyway :P
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Re: Consultation: Advertising on GPR

Post by CoopsII »

If I had a choice then the banner style would be the way to go. I'm more than happy to see advertising on here if it keeps things going. As much as I would like to donate personally it would be an entirely selfish act on my behalf. A ten pound donation, for example, is two swimming lessons etc etc. I think nearly every other forum I visit has advertisments so why should the mighty GP Rejects be any different?
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Re: Consultation: Advertising on GPR

Post by RonDenisDeletraz »

I don't really like the idea, but would certainly be willing to accept it if necessary for financial reasons. At the end of the day, priority one is keeping the website alive
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Re: Consultation: Advertising on GPR

Post by Nuppiz »

I don't see any reason why we shouldn't have ads as long as they're passive and non-obstructive. Donations are, after all, a fairly unreliable source of income, and if website traffic is going to increase as new content is published then we sure need every penny we can get.
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Re: Consultation: Advertising on GPR

Post by dr-baker »

I can understand the need for it, and I approve of the suggested nature of the advertising. However, may I ask what the current situation is as regards donations to date, how long the site can survive on already-made donations, are there still donations coming in, etc.?
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Re: Consultation: Advertising on GPR

Post by AndreaModa »

Good plan, both positions look fine, particularly the sidebar one as there's not much in there at the moment anyway so it's a good place to stick it without changing the position of the main content.
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Re: Consultation: Advertising on GPR

Post by tommykl »

I'll echo the above. While I won't say I enjoy advertising (who really does?), it's hardly noticeable in those implementations, and if it means we can afford a better plan, it's at worst a necessary evil.
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Re: Consultation: Advertising on GPR

Post by DemocalypseNow »

dr-baker wrote:I can understand the need for it, and I approve of the suggested nature of the advertising. However, may I ask what the current situation is as regards donations to date, how long the site can survive on already-made donations, are there still donations coming in, etc.?

In the last month we received 3 month's worth of expenses in donations (thank you all!). At present we are funded without interruption until Jan 2017. This figure is also generated on the assumption I personally don't put a single penny further in, so my own contributions would keep us going a bit further beyond that. Domains are cheap, I absorb that cost myself without any issue, and none are due for renewal until next year. It's the server rental that is our primary expense.
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Re: Consultation: Advertising on GPR

Post by AndreaModa »

Biscione wrote:
dr-baker wrote:I can understand the need for it, and I approve of the suggested nature of the advertising. However, may I ask what the current situation is as regards donations to date, how long the site can survive on already-made donations, are there still donations coming in, etc.?

In the last month we received 3 month's worth of expenses in donations (thank you all!). At present we are funded without interruption until Jan 2017. This figure is also generated on the assumption I personally don't put a single penny further in, so my own contributions would keep us going a bit further beyond that. Domains are cheap, I absorb that cost myself without any issue, and none are due for renewal until next year. It's the server rental that is our primary expense.


This is probably nuts but how much are servers? Thinking initial single cost vs. continual long term spend. I suppose what I'm wondering is how many years worth of server rental would you have to pay in order to equate to the cost of running your own? Or is that not possible?
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Re: Consultation: Advertising on GPR

Post by DemocalypseNow »

AndreaModa wrote:This is probably nuts but how much are servers? Thinking initial single cost vs. continual long term spend. I suppose what I'm wondering is how many years worth of server rental would you have to pay in order to equate to the cost of running your own? Or is that not possible?

The problem with running your own server is not even expense, it's reliability. The fact that you'd be running it on a domestic internet connection, that you wouldn't be able to buy into an enterprise-scale structure which has better configured security, higher quality hardware & so forth. Running one's own physical server has a very high initial outlay, has a high monthly cost (it's expensive not to just power it 24/7, but to cool it as well!).

A single website would never reach a scale wherein it would be cost effective for it to run its own server architecture. With a handful of exceptions of course, for example Amazon. But you're talking about being one of the top select few websites on earth for that to be viable!

To put it in perspective: yes, in the long run you'd save money, but it would take at least a century to break even on that investment!
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Re: Consultation: Advertising on GPR

Post by AndreaModa »

Haha fair enough, I had no idea on the actual costs so that's cleared that one up nicely. As you were!
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Re: Consultation: Advertising on GPR

Post by dinizintheoven »

At least you've identified one of the potential scourges in the initial post: Flash. Never has one program had so much power to turn my 3.6 GHz Mac with 2 MB/s download speed into something resembling a 3.6 MHz XT connected to a 9600 baud dial-up modem.
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Re: Consultation: Advertising on GPR

Post by UncreativeUsername37 »

I'm fine with completely static advertisements. Keeping the articles in one piece is good too, since although I'd be fine with an (again, static) interruption I could see people being annoyed by that. So I have no changes to suggest.
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Re: Consultation: Advertising on GPR

Post by CaptainGetz12 »

(Back from the desert)

If I recall the old website had banner ads and it seemed to have no trouble generating revenue. Going the same route should be fine: If it ain't broke, don't fix it! :D
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Re: Consultation: Advertising on GPR

Post by DanielPT »

tommykl wrote:I'll echo the above. While I won't say I enjoy advertising (who really does?), it's hardly noticeable in those implementations, and if it means we can afford a better plan, it's at worst a necessary evil.


I will make tommykl's words mine.
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Re: Consultation: Advertising on GPR

Post by dr-baker »

DanielPT wrote:
tommykl wrote:I'll echo the above. While I won't say I enjoy advertising (who really does?), it's hardly noticeable in those implementations, and if it means we can afford a better plan, it's at worst a necessary evil.


I will make tommykl's words mine.

Ditto that.
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Re: Consultation: Advertising on GPR

Post by takagi_for_the_win »

I'm not the most frequent user here but honestly I'd go with the banner ads. Relying on a small core of donators for income isn't the most reliable stream of income, and it's also unfair on those of you that donate to shoulder the costs of running the forum. Also, as others have pointed out, most other sites use banner ads or sidebar ads to varying degrees of effect, so why shouldn't we?
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Re: Consultation: Advertising on GPR

Post by FMecha »

CaptainGetz12 wrote:(Back from the desert)

If I recall the old website had banner ads and it seemed to have no trouble generating revenue. Going the same route should be fine: If it ain't broke, don't fix it! :D


Only the old iterations of the wikis were. The old site never had any ad banners whatsoever, IIRC. ;)
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Re: Consultation: Advertising on GPR

Post by Butterfox »

As long as there's no danger of accidentally clicking on shady stuff, i have no objections.
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Re: Consultation: Advertising on GPR

Post by Kuwashima »

CaptainGetz12 wrote:(Back from the desert)

If I recall the old website had banner ads and it seemed to have no trouble generating revenue. Going the same route should be fine: If it ain't broke, don't fix it! :D

No, we didn't!! And yes, we did!! :vergne:
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Re: Consultation: Advertising on GPR

Post by Wallio »

I am very leery of ads on forums do to personal experience. I was part of a drag racing forum for years. The largest on Earth in fact. For over a decade it was privately run and funded solely on donations. Then the owner, justifiably, had had enough and sold it. The new owners immediately placed ads on top and bottom, and in between posts. "This is only for non-members", they said "Once your logged in, you will not see them" They lied.
Then, posts and whole pages (mostly the sections where NSFW items were allowed) started disappearing. The sponsors were appalled their ads might be next to porn. Now while I don't lose sleep over naughty pictures on a racing forum, as a libertarian, the censorship was a bit much. People's signatures started getting deleted, as many had their cars sponsors listed, and if they competed with a company that advertised, bye bye.

Then the adware and mal-ware started. My virus scan at work literally wouldn't let me open the site it got so bad. People with lesser systems had hard drives brick left and right.Accounts started being deleted for bringing up these points. This on a site with over 7 figures worth of members and only 1! 1! person banned in over a decade (he was a convicted pedo, and the rules were waived to ban him). In a few months thousands of accounts and IPs were banned. Finally a longtime member started a rival board with the old "no ads, no rules" model and schismed the site even worse. From over a million active members a few years ago, it has less than this site now. This is an extreme case I know, but I hope to never repeat it if I can help it.

All that rant being said it isn't right that Biscione has to shoulder the load by himself, and if he decides ads are the way to go, well I'll stick around, just so long as this doesn't turn into a virus-riddled police state. That being said, I think we need to avoid it at all cost, and putting my money where my mouth is, I am willing to donate 3 months of fees on Thursday when I get paid. (Biscione PM me the amount and the email address for PayPay. I forget them lol).

I personally think small, and private is the way to go, but I have no skin in the game in the grand scheme of things, so that is very easy for me to say.

Sorry rant over.
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Re: Consultation: Advertising on GPR

Post by CaptainGetz12 »

I may have needed to clear up my support. I only really support ads that are on the top of the page and whatnot. Any ads that are hidden in posts is something I do not support.

I do support continuing donations to the gprejects fund though, since it allows us to not have to get too extensive with adverts.
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Re: Consultation: Advertising on GPR

Post by Bobby Doorknobs »

Biscione made it quite clear in the opening post what form these adverts are going to take:
Biscione wrote:They would be exclusively non-intrusive in nature. No flash ads, no dynamic ads that get bigger or smaller based on whether you hover near them or not, nothing with audio or video. And not wedged into the middle of article flow either. They would come in the form of text only or a static image, constrained within their own pre-defined container. The idea is to be visible but not disruptive.
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Re: Consultation: Advertising on GPR

Post by Wallio »

Simtek wrote:Biscione made it quite clear in the opening post what form these adverts are going to take:
Biscione wrote:They would be exclusively non-intrusive in nature. No flash ads, no dynamic ads that get bigger or smaller based on whether you hover near them or not, nothing with audio or video. And not wedged into the middle of article flow either. They would come in the form of text only or a static image, constrained within their own pre-defined container. The idea is to be visible but not disruptive.


I read it, but I've "read it all before" you understand. Nothing personal to Biscione, but once bitten twice shy.
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Re: Consultation: Advertising on GPR

Post by DemocalypseNow »

Wallio wrote:
Simtek wrote:Biscione made it quite clear in the opening post what form these adverts are going to take:
Biscione wrote:They would be exclusively non-intrusive in nature. No flash ads, no dynamic ads that get bigger or smaller based on whether you hover near them or not, nothing with audio or video. And not wedged into the middle of article flow either. They would come in the form of text only or a static image, constrained within their own pre-defined container. The idea is to be visible but not disruptive.


I read it, but I've "read it all before" you understand. Nothing personal to Biscione, but once bitten twice shy.

I would ask you not to start filling other people's minds with unjust fear (as has just been demonstrated there by CaptainGetz). I explained in full what system would be in place; don't start pointing the finger for something that hasn't even happened. The last thing we need is scaremongering. I do not appreciate it.
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Re: Consultation: Advertising on GPR

Post by Wallio »

Biscione wrote:I would ask you not to start filling other people's minds with unjust fear (as has just been demonstrated there by CaptainGetz). I explained in full what system would be in place; don't start pointing the finger for something that hasn't even happened. The last thing we need is scaremongering. I do not appreciate it.



That was not my intention, and for that I do apologize. This is just one of the slipperiest of slopes. (Google "AutoGuide" and the dozens of forums they took over hosting for). As I said, it is your website so the choice is ultimately yours, and I (and I'm sure everyone else) will support it 100%. I was merely trying to show another possibility. One I sadly went through first hand.

My offer still stands BTW. Send me a PM and maybe I can prolong the inevitable? :D (JOKE that was a JOKE!)
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Re: Consultation: Advertising on GPR

Post by SuperAguri »

As long as it's banner or side adverts then it shouldn't make much difference to 99% of visitors.

It would be nice if donors and people that run series or write articles did have the choice of being able to turn off the adverts

If people don't want adverts then they could use adblock.
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Re: Consultation: Advertising on GPR

Post by DanielPT »

From what I could see today adds are now present in the website. Only saw one per page and they are discret enough for not to become a nuisance. All in all, I am perfectly fine with how it turned out so far.
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Re: Consultation: Advertising on GPR

Post by dr-baker »

DanielPT wrote:From what I could see today adds are now present in the website. Only saw one per page and they are discret enough for not to become a nuisance. All in all, I am perfectly fine with how it turned out so far.

What he said.
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Re: Consultation: Advertising on GPR

Post by AndreaModa »

Ah so that's what's in that gap. Ad blocker see! 8-)
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Re: Consultation: Advertising on GPR

Post by DemocalypseNow »

So I have been looking at the analytics from the test run. It does not look positive. To get the most out of the advertising, we need to put the adverts in the most high-traffic area. The forum.

Again, if it were to be implemented, it would be the same way as the original proposal. A single ad unit per page, in the header. That's the extent of it. Nothing like EFR's forum host for example, who go overboard and splice them in the middle of everywhere (they even hijack people's posts with ads!).

Again, I don't do this lightly. I like the nice clean, uninterrupted design. But needs must. As things currently stand we'd make only 4.2% of our costs back from advertising revenue. I was aiming for at least 50%! I don't want to put a larger quantity of adverts anywhere, I'm already at what I'd consider my limit. But I feel putting a similar style of advert here at the top of the forum might be necessary to get us to that safe level of income....
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Re: Consultation: Advertising on GPR

Post by UncreativeUsername37 »

Biscione wrote:So I have been looking at the analytics from the test run. It does not look positive. To get the most out of the advertising, we need to put the adverts in the most high-traffic area. The forum.

Again, if it were to be implemented, it would be the same way as the original proposal. A single ad unit per page, in the header. That's the extent of it. Nothing like EFR's forum host for example, who go overboard and splice them in the middle of everywhere (they even hijack people's posts with ads!).

Again, I don't do this lightly. I like the nice clean, uninterrupted design. But needs must. As things currently stand we'd make only 4.2% of our costs back from advertising revenue. I was aiming for at least 50%! I don't want to put a larger quantity of adverts anywhere, I'm already at what I'd consider my limit. But I feel putting a similar style of advert here at the top of the forum might be necessary to get us to that safe level of income....

I'm okay with that. It doesn't matter if I have to turn the scroll wheel one more time to get to something.
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Re: Consultation: Advertising on GPR

Post by CaptainGetz12 »

Biscione wrote:So I have been looking at the analytics from the test run. It does not look positive. To get the most out of the advertising, we need to put the adverts in the most high-traffic area. The forum.

Again, if it were to be implemented, it would be the same way as the original proposal. A single ad unit per page, in the header. That's the extent of it. Nothing like EFR's forum host for example, who go overboard and splice them in the middle of everywhere (they even hijack people's posts with ads!).

Again, I don't do this lightly. I like the nice clean, uninterrupted design. But needs must. As things currently stand we'd make only 4.2% of our costs back from advertising revenue. I was aiming for at least 50%! I don't want to put a larger quantity of adverts anywhere, I'm already at what I'd consider my limit. But I feel putting a similar style of advert here at the top of the forum might be necessary to get us to that safe level of income....


Cool your jets man! You said that it wasn't that big of a deal right now ;)

Having one ad on top is the same as the old site, so I don't mind.
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Re: Consultation: Advertising on GPR

Post by madmark1974 »

Biscione wrote:So I have been looking at the analytics from the test run. It does not look positive. To get the most out of the advertising, we need to put the adverts in the most high-traffic area. The forum.

Again, if it were to be implemented, it would be the same way as the original proposal. A single ad unit per page, in the header. That's the extent of it. Nothing like EFR's forum host for example, who go overboard and splice them in the middle of everywhere (they even hijack people's posts with ads!).

Again, I don't do this lightly. I like the nice clean, uninterrupted design. But needs must. As things currently stand we'd make only 4.2% of our costs back from advertising revenue. I was aiming for at least 50%! I don't want to put a larger quantity of adverts anywhere, I'm already at what I'd consider my limit. But I feel putting a similar style of advert here at the top of the forum might be necessary to get us to that safe level of income....


Out of curiosity, and not knowing how these things work - do they pay more if you achieve a better CTR? i.e.
will it help if we actually click on the advert, if only just to instantly close it?
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Re: Consultation: Advertising on GPR

Post by Nuppiz »

Also, for people running ad-blocking software, could you please disable it for gprejects.com? Our advertising is being kept to bare minimum and outside the content area so it shouldn't really bother anyone.
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Wallio
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Re: Consultation: Advertising on GPR

Post by Wallio »

Nuppiz wrote:Also, for people running ad-blocking software, could you please disable it for gprejects.com? Our advertising is being kept to bare minimum and outside the content area so it shouldn't really bother anyone.



Come now, you can't have it both ways.....
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Re: Consultation: Advertising on GPR

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Wallio wrote:
Nuppiz wrote:Also, for people running ad-blocking software, could you please disable it for gprejects.com? Our advertising is being kept to bare minimum and outside the content area so it shouldn't really bother anyone.



Come now, you can't have it both ways.....

Care to elaborate? To what other way are you referring?
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Re: Consultation: Advertising on GPR

Post by Wallio »

Biscione wrote:
Wallio wrote:
Nuppiz wrote:Also, for people running ad-blocking software, could you please disable it for gprejects.com? Our advertising is being kept to bare minimum and outside the content area so it shouldn't really bother anyone.



Come now, you can't have it both ways.....

Care to elaborate? To what other way are you referring?



I'm just saying if you place ads in (which may or may not have happened already, I link directly to the forum most days I haven't seen any) that's fine. But don't lecture members who decide to use an ad block. It was pretty obvious actually.
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