Proposal: Redefining a reject team

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Bobby Doorknobs
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Proposal: Redefining a reject team

Post by Bobby Doorknobs »

Now that I finally have the time to post this I would like to put forward my proposal to rewrite the criteria defining a reject team. As it stands, the criteria are as follows:

  • to have attempted to qualify at at least 2 Grands Prix and
  • to have scored 6 points or fewer under pre-2003 points systems

The problem with this is that there was more than one way of distributing points before 2003: The 10/9-6-4-3-2-1 system and its predecessor the 8-6-4-3-2 system, the difference here being that the latter system did not award points for 6th place, whereas the former system did. The phrasing of the driver criteria is simple as it refers only to positions. Rephrasing the team criteria in a similar manner would look rather confusing because there are more permutations for scoring seven pre-2003 points than for scoring three like in the driver criteria.

There is also the famous Osella example where Jo Gartner finished in a points-paying position but wasn't awarded points because only one car was officially entered by the team for the season. How this is considered will make the difference between reject and non-reject status. I think, despite how interesting an Osella profile would certainly be, that it would be better to consider them unrejectified and stick with a criterion based more on finishing positions than on points, as F1 pointscoring is a little complicated.

This new criterion I propose is:

  • to have scored 6 points or fewer under the 1991-2002 scoring system, assuming every car could have scored points

This should remove the ambiguity of the previous criteria. Onto the next problem: How to define a team. F1 has a long and complicated history of teams and constructors. The current definition of a team follows these guidelines:

  • includes teams attempting to enter F1 as a constructor
  • includes privateer teams entering F1 in partnership with a chassis-maker
  • does not include privateer teams utilising customer chassis
  • does not include constructors supplying customer chassis to teams

Sounds simple, right? If only. Just as there is crossover between the terms "team" and "constructor", there is crossover between what apparently can and cannot be included. Theodore, for example, entered F1 as a constructor, but also previously took part as a privateer team using a customer Ensign chassis. To complicate things further, they scored two points as a constructor, which in theory should warrant inclusion as a reject team, but prior to building their own chassis they scored five points with the Ensign, which adds up to seven points total and in theory it could be argued that they have unrejectified themselves.

A more complicated example is Frank Williams Racing Cars, which ran customer chassis from 1969-72 (1970 being something of an exception, as they were effectively a works De Tomaso effort), introducing their own car - dubbed the Politoys FX3 in deference to their main backer - during the 1972 season. For 1973, with backing now coming from Iso and Marboro, a new car was introduced bearing the Iso-Marlboro name. In 1975 the Williams name first appeared as a constructor, which for 1976 became Wolf-Williams, reflecting the new ownership of Walter Wolf. However, for the whole 1969-75 period the team owner was Frank Williams. Politoys, Iso-Marlboro and Williams (1975 only, if one separates it from the modern team a la Lotus) would all be eligible for profiles if counted separately, but at the same time it would make little sense to profile them, as they are all chapters in the story of the same team.

In most cases, it does of course make sense to take the chassis name as being indicative of a new and separate team. It is generally agreed that Tyrrell and BAR are different entities, with a change in ownership leading to a change in team name. Same goes for Jordan-Midland-Spyker-Force India, or for Minardi-Toro Rosso. There was some overlap with Midland taking over Jordan and keeping the old name for the 2005 season, but the switch was made to Midland in time for 2006. A similar thing happened during the '06 season when Spyker took over. The constructor name was still "MF1" until the end of the season, officially becoming "Spyker" in 2007.

Complications also begin to arise when you get to the infamous Larrousse example, or even their contemporaries BMS Scuderia Italia. Larrousse competed quite successfully with a Lola chassis from 1987-91, easily escaping reject status. 1992-94 are a problem, with the Venturi and in-house Larrousse chassis each scoring less than the required seven points to escape reject status. Similarly, Scuderia Italia would have unrejectified themselves easily with the Dallara chassis, but scored zilch with a Lola. In both cases it was quite obviously the same team with the same owners, the chassis name being the only difference.

However, a line must be drawn and I have the following proposed criteria:

  • includes teams attempting to enter F1 as a constructor at some point in their lifetime
  • includes privateer teams entering F1 in partnership with a chassis-maker
  • does not include privateer teams only utilising customer chassis
  • does not include constructors supplying customer chassis to teams

This way, Theodore are unrejectified, as are Larrousse, whether it's 1987-91 or 1992-94.

On a further note I would also like to propose reducing the two Grands Prix threshold for a reject team to one Grand Prix, specifically:

  • to have participated in at least one official World Championship session

This would allow for entries such as Bugatti and Stebro to be profiled, also fully allowing for MasterCard Lola, as they only made one proper attempt at qualifying for a race.

Thoughts? Comments? Anyone have any better ways of removing ambiguities? Have I missed something that would complicate things even further? Or should we not bother making a fuss about it and simply judge teams on a case-by-case basis?
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Re: Proposal: Redefining a reject team

Post by UncreativeUsername37 »

"To have scored 6 points or fewer under the 1991-2002 scoring system, assuming every race was counted for points" sounds like it includes non-championship races. Judging by the Osella paragraph beforehand, do you mean "every car"?

Other than that, the proposal sounds good. I get why the two-race rule is there, but it does need to go, since it was ignored just because it would be ridiculous not to do MC Lola, and if it needs to be ignored to make things better it isn't exactly a good rule.
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Re: Proposal: Redefining a reject team

Post by Bobby Doorknobs »

UgncreativeUsergname wrote:"To have scored 6 points or fewer under the 1991-2002 scoring system, assuming every race was counted for points" sounds like it includes non-championship races. Judging by the Osella paragraph beforehand, do you mean "every car"?

Other than that, the proposal sounds good. I get why the two-race rule is there, but it does need to go, since it was ignored just because it would be ridiculous not to do MC Lola, and if it needs to be ignored to make things better it isn't exactly a good rule.

Ah, yes, I do mean every car. Post fixed!
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Re: Proposal: Redefining a reject team

Post by Nessafox »

There's plenty of constructors who fit your proposed criteria, so that seems fine.

There's still some ambiguity, like the 1962 ENB, whose only constructor car was a re-badged Emeryson. (though Emeryson itself would be a reject) I suppose this would mean ENB doesn't count as a reject but as a full-time privateer. Also, do we count McGuire, which was a re-badged Williams, as a separate constructor or not? You can argue the Apollon wasn't a Williams because it was visually different, but i don't think the McGuire was visually different?
How about the Lola-BMW F2 cars?

I think we should add 'must have participated in at least one official Grand Prix world championship session', because there's been teams who've been on entry lists like the Berta, but never showed up. They, and the likes like Theodore, can still be profiled in 'featured article' sense.
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Re: Proposal: Redefining a reject team

Post by dinizintheoven »

It certainly clarifies things a lot better than Jamie and Enoch's original proposal. I reckon they set the reject limit at six points so that Onyx could be profiled - because, other than that unbeliveable podium and a fifth for Stefan Johansson, everything else about the team was firmly in classic reject territory - 25 appearances on the grid, 27 DN(P)Qs, and the combined eccentricities of Jean-Pierre Van Rossem and Peter Monteverdi means they couldn't possibly have been left out. The new criteria would also finally put that troublesome Osella debate to bed.

At some stage I'd assume someone will pick up the story of "(Team) Lotus (Racing)" and Caterham for a profile - considered separate teams by Wikipedia but both owned by Tony Fernandes and officially both trading names of 1Malaysia Formula One Team (or whatever it was called) so surely, that whole story would be one profile rather than two.
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Re: Proposal: Redefining a reject team

Post by Bobby Doorknobs »

This wrote:There's still some ambiguity, like the 1962 ENB, whose only constructor car was a re-badged Emeryson. (though Emeryson itself would be a reject) I suppose this would mean ENB doesn't count as a reject but as a full-time privateer. Also, do we count McGuire, which was a re-badged Williams, as a separate constructor or not? You can argue the Apollon wasn't a Williams because it was visually different, but i don't think the McGuire was visually different?
How about the Lola-BMW F2 cars?

My answer to those is: Eifelland. They had a profile on F1 Rejects despite the fact that the car was just a March 721 with different bodywork, so examples like this are not unheard of.

The ENB was basically cobbled together from bits of a few Emerysons and made as an imitation of the Ferrari 156, the McGuire is basically an FW04 with revised aerodynamics and the Lola-BMW, specifically the T100 driven by Hubert Hahne in 1967-68, was an F2 chassis, but it wasn't allowed to compete in the F2 category because it exceeded the engine size limit, so it is eligible for a BMW profile (it would most probably be counted separately from BMW Sauber anyway). They were all attempts to enter F1 as a constructor, or in partnership with a chassis-maker, and are reflected by the fact that they show up in Constructors' Championship standings of years past. Other F2 entries like the Protos would be negated by the "includes teams attempting to enter F1 as a constructor" criteria, as the Protos was never officially entered for an F1 race, it was entered for an F2 race that happened to coincide with an F1 race.

This wrote:I think we should add 'must have participated in at least one official Grand Prix world championship session', because there's been teams who've been on entry lists like the Berta, but never showed up. They, and the likes like Theodore, can still be profiled in 'featured article' sense.

Yes, that does make sense, and the post has been edited to incorporate that. Unraced F1 exists for efforts of this nature and I wouldn't want us to be stealing opportunities there!

dinizintheoven wrote:At some stage I'd assume someone will pick up the story of "(Team) Lotus (Racing)" and Caterham for a profile - considered separate teams by Wikipedia but both owned by Tony Fernandes and officially both trading names of 1Malaysia Formula One Team (or whatever it was called) so surely, that whole story would be one profile rather than two.


Yes, like with Larrousse, there was no change in ownership involved, unlike the vast majority of other constructor name changes. The constructor name change is a useful guideline to follow in most cases, but exceptions should be allowed for situations like this one.
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Re: Proposal: Redefining a reject team

Post by AndreaModa »

Simtek wrote:
This wrote:I think we should add 'must have participated in at least one official Grand Prix world championship session', because there's been teams who've been on entry lists like the Berta, but never showed up. They, and the likes like Theodore, can still be profiled in 'featured article' sense.

Yes, that does make sense, and the post has been edited to incorporate that. Unraced F1 exists for efforts of this nature and I wouldn't want us to be stealing opportunities there!


Well how about merging the two projects? I've done a bit of work for Jasper sorting the English out for his articles. He has some fantastic information, but just a WordPress blog to host it. It would be nice to have something a bit better, and would open up new opportunities - you mention BMW above, how about an article detailing their other attempt in the early 90s as part of a wider "BMW in F1" retrospective, and talk about their time with Williams and Sauber too, with the 2008 title push (or not)?

I think a partnership could be worth exploring and then there's no danger of either project stepping on the other's toes. Plus, it's more content for this site, and Unraced F1 can have more of a bespoke platform rather than just blog entries.
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Re: Proposal: Redefining a reject team

Post by Nessafox »

Defenitely. The UnracedF1 owner was dutch i think? I would defenitely be able to help him translate stuff from Dutch to english, as it is also my mother tonguen and he seems to have lot of Dutch sources, and some problems with english. (of course not meant to disrespect)
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Re: Proposal: Redefining a reject team

Post by SuperAguri »

Onyx were an interesting side note as they are not a reject but are basically a reject team, I would also like to see teams that had a change of ownership but kept the same name get a mention if they did something reject worthy, for example when Middlebridge Engineering took over Brabham they got 5 more points over three seasons (two 5ths and a 6th) before they got an ugly colour scheme, had the last women (and Damon Hill) DNPQ in it and get busted by the serious fraud office.
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Re: Proposal: Redefining a reject team

Post by RonDenisDeletraz »

I have always thought that regardless of technicalities about what cars scored points when, Osella should be counted as rejects. They definitely embodied the vibe of rejectfulness
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Re: Proposal: Redefining a reject team

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RonDenisDeletraz wrote:I have always thought that regardless of technicalities about what cars scored points when, Osella should be counted as rejects. They definitely embodied the vibe of rejectfulness

Well, so did Minardi, but I've never seen anybody dispute them. An Osella profile could still be written as a Centrale piece. Just throwing that out there ;)
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Re: Proposal: Redefining a reject team

Post by Meatwad »

I know they meet the criteria, but considering Onyx a reject team is somewhat unfair in my opinion. As slow as they were, they got a podium, which many non-reject teams fail to do (even Minardi although they had almost six times as many points in the old system).

I agree on counting Gartner's fifth place and Osella not being a reject team just because of the various point systems.
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Re: Proposal: Redefining a reject team

Post by UncreativeUsername37 »

We need clear lines to cross with no grey areas. If we start making exceptions because a team "feels really rejectful" or "were really just underfunded", Minardi are rejects, Life just took a risk that didn't pay off, and there's no point to anything.
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Re: Proposal: Redefining a reject team

Post by Nessafox »

Meatwad wrote:I know they meet the criteria, but considering Onyx a reject team is somewhat unfair in my opinion. As slow as they were, they got a podium, which many non-reject teams fail to do (even Minardi although they had almost six times as many points in the old system).

I agree on counting Gartner's fifth place and Osella not being a reject team just because of the various point systems.

But it looks rather obvious Jamie and Enoch created the original criteria with Onyx/Osella as a reference of where to draw the line. Onyx does fit in the category, because in their short existance, despite their heroic perfomances, they also DNQ'd quite a lot, they were short-lived and in constant turmoil. Osella on the other hand was perhaps underfunded, but still a relatively stable team that existed for a whole decade, so their inclusion is debatable, therefore they finetuned their criteria. Out of all the teams eligible for rejects status, only the likes of Zakspeed, ATS, AGS and Coloni had a relatively 'long' existance.
Arguments for Minardi other than the 'spirit' are totally lacking. They only DNQ'd when the drivers were underperforming (and those drivers are almost all eligible for reject status), and spend a whole 20 years in the sport. Besides, Minardi is just too mainstream for this wesite.
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Re: Proposal: Redefining a reject team

Post by dr-baker »

This wrote:
Meatwad wrote:I know they meet the criteria, but considering Onyx a reject team is somewhat unfair in my opinion. As slow as they were, they got a podium, which many non-reject teams fail to do (even Minardi although they had almost six times as many points in the old system).

I agree on counting Gartner's fifth place and Osella not being a reject team just because of the various point systems.

But it looks rather obvious Jamie and Enoch created the original criteria with Onyx/Osella as a reference of where to draw the line. Onyx does fit in the category, because in their short existance, despite their heroic perfomances, they also DNQ'd quite a lot, they were short-lived and in constant turmoil. Osella on the other hand was perhaps underfunded, but still a relatively stable team that existed for a whole decade, so their inclusion is debatable, therefore they finetuned their criteria. Out of all the teams eligible for rejects status, only the likes of Zakspeed, ATS, AGS and Coloni had a relatively 'long' existance.
Arguments for Minardi other than the 'spirit' are totally lacking. They only DNQ'd when the drivers were underperforming (and those drivers are almost all eligible for reject status), and spend a whole 20 years in the sport. Besides, Minardi is just too mainstream for this website.

In the mid- to late-1990s (pre-rejects), I always felt that any teams behind Minardi were genuine backmarkers (I would have referred to them as Rejects now), while any who were regularly ahead of Minardi were not. Thus Jordan, Stewart, Toyota and Sauber were not rejects; Simtek, Pacific, Forti and Lola were rejects. Minardi was that borderline during their existence that defined rejectfulness or otherwise.
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