The place for anything and everything else to do with F1 history, different forms of motorsport, and all other randomness
by CoopsII 18 Feb 2021, 11:38
I've pondered this opinion myself a few times over the years without really coming to a conclusion either way. One thing I do think is that Mosley and Ecclestone got away with much of their approach through familiarity. These two guys had known nearly all the team principals since the halcyon days of modern F1 and I think that level of familiarity eliminates any bullshit, things are black and white, do it this way or else. These days with a more corporate influence you wouldn't get away with that, I don't think.

Nostalgia usually makes folk things were better that way but I'm not sure how true that is.

Just For One Day...
by mario 20 Feb 2021, 15:35
Frogfoot9013 wrote:
Butterfox wrote:I do no tthink people really had a problem with his interventionist style, but more with the fact that he would not compromise if one of his ideas was stupid. When he made good decisions that just went largely unnoticed.


This is probably more accurate tbh
I don't recall there being much criticism of how the FIA punished the likes of BAR and McLaren in 2005 and 2007 respectively (though IIRC with BAR, Mosley wanted to throw the team out of the championship full-stop and I think they got lucky by dint of getting caught early in the year versus getting caught later on in the year). Likewise, when McLaren got that $100m fine and being thrown out of the constructor's championship, there was little opposition to that. However, the FIA's lunacy in 2005 at Indianapolis was pretty universally disliked for obvious reasons.

However, I do think a lot of us took that sort of interventionism for granted at the time, not realising that in spite of all that was wrong with the way the FIA was run then, we'd never get it that good again.

You do raise a fair point that it wasn't perhaps so much of the interventionism, but the cases where there was unnecessary antagonism.

I would somewhat disagree with the assertion that the punishment that McLaren received wasn't without opposition though, as there were indications that it did result in a fair bit of discomfort and disquiet in the paddock.

There were those who felt it was disproportionately harsh when compared to similar cases around that time, as the investigation into McLaren was just one of multiple cases that the FIA was investigating at the time. Whilst the Ferrari-McLaren question was the headline, there were questions around how Spyker had got hold of design drawings for Red Bull's and Toro Rosso's 2007 spec chassis (and questions over whether Spyker's B spec car might have "borrowed" some ideas from those cars) and Renault was having to explain how it had details of McLaren's J-damper on their system.

Equally, others also referenced the 2003 Ferrari-Toyota case, as the legal trial of Mauro Iacconi and Angelo Santini took place in early 2007 (after the original trial date in 2006 was postponed). There did seem to be questions over the mixed messages the FIA seemed to be sending, given they chose to make an example of McLaren at the time, but were felt to be comparatively lenient elsewhere.

Martin Brundle, on watching a replay of Grosjean spinning:
"The problem with Grosjean is that he want to take a look back at the corner he's just exited"
by Bleu 20 Feb 2021, 19:31
Regarding FIA leadership I have to think whether disbanding FISA was a good idea.

Even though his background in rallying, sports cars and F1, Jean Todt as FIA president seems to be more interested in road safety. All respect to that, it is an important job globally.

But at the same time, being the head of motorsport might be too time-consuming.

I know that for example Balestre headed both at the same time, but it could be good if there were two persons heading two different organizations.
by yannicksamlad 22 Feb 2021, 09:24
Rob Dylan wrote:....These days the FiA is... barely even there? Especially when it comes to in-race decisions, there hasn't been an in-race DSQ since probably 2007 or 2008 or something, and there have been PLENTY of incidents that have warranted that kind of action*. There doesn't appear to be any kind of leadership from Todt at all...


I've been thinking about this point about not taking strong action against some dangerous (or at least pretty risky) driving, and I tend to agree with the point that the FIA doesnt seem to set a clear and high standard for the stewards to apply. There have been a number of incidents for which I feel F2 or F3 drivers would have been penalised/ castigated etc and yet F1 stewards havent felt able to take strong action. Strangely the stewards have issued small penalties ( and very strangely also penalty points on the licence) for plenty of small misjudgments that lead to tangles ( I think they judge the outcome and not the offence) , but cases of completely unnecessary endangerment of others have been given a light touch.
I agree - the FIA should be seen to be setting a high standard for driving conduct which should be seen to be paramount and sit above all the 'specific' rules about where/when it's acceptable to 'weave', run people off the road etc . And that's not been the case recently

Same goes for 'leading' on dealing with rule breaking. A strong FIA position on the consequences for rule breaking would be welcome as we go into budget caps , frozen engines etc where there will be grey areas

I started supporting Emmo in 1976 (3 points )....missed 75, 74, 73, 72...
by mario 24 Feb 2021, 19:56
yannicksamlad wrote:
Rob Dylan wrote:....These days the FiA is... barely even there? Especially when it comes to in-race decisions, there hasn't been an in-race DSQ since probably 2007 or 2008 or something, and there have been PLENTY of incidents that have warranted that kind of action*. There doesn't appear to be any kind of leadership from Todt at all...


I've been thinking about this point about not taking strong action against some dangerous (or at least pretty risky) driving, and I tend to agree with the point that the FIA doesnt seem to set a clear and high standard for the stewards to apply. There have been a number of incidents for which I feel F2 or F3 drivers would have been penalised/ castigated etc and yet F1 stewards havent felt able to take strong action. Strangely the stewards have issued small penalties ( and very strangely also penalty points on the licence) for plenty of small misjudgments that lead to tangles ( I think they judge the outcome and not the offence) , but cases of completely unnecessary endangerment of others have been given a light touch.
I agree - the FIA should be seen to be setting a high standard for driving conduct which should be seen to be paramount and sit above all the 'specific' rules about where/when it's acceptable to 'weave', run people off the road etc . And that's not been the case recently

Same goes for 'leading' on dealing with rule breaking. A strong FIA position on the consequences for rule breaking would be welcome as we go into budget caps , frozen engines etc where there will be grey areas

There does seem to be the twist that, whilst Todt seems to be quite interested in his road safety campaigns, safety within F1 seems to have gone backwards in some areas. Whilst I don't want to be overly harsh, I do feel that Masi and the stewards under him have been rather inconsistent and that safety standards for marshalling work in particular has markedly worsened.

Last year, we had near misses in Imola, where race control allowed lapped cars to travel at high speed even though there were still marshals on the track, then qualifying being restarted in Turkey whilst marshals were still trying to recover a Haas from a gravel trap because Masi didn't wait for confirmation the marshals were clear and a marshal running across the live track in Bahrain when Perez's car caught fire.

Those are the most worrying aspects - it felt as if Masi was acting because of psychological pressure to make sure that action could resume as soon as possible in some cases, such as in Turkey, and Imola also showed a worrying trend that communications between race control and the marshals seems to be prone to breaking down more frequently.

There was also the accusations levied against Mika Salo after the Russian GP that he was passing information from the stewards room to broadcasters during official investigations. When the investigation into Hamilton was taking place, Niki Juusela reported on Finnish TV that Hamilton would be getting a penalty about 10 minutes before the official announcement was made - Salo, having also presented on that show and reportedly being pictured using his phone at around that time, was suspected of leaking info, though that was denied by both men.

That, to me, is also a pretty bad sign if stewards were looking to abuse the investigation process to give a scoop to the press - we shouldn't have that sort of behaviour occurring.

Martin Brundle, on watching a replay of Grosjean spinning:
"The problem with Grosjean is that he want to take a look back at the corner he's just exited"
by James1978 30 Apr 2021, 16:02
I don't know if this could class as unpopular as such but it just struck me so wanted to state it - even though it's only 3-4 years ago, and despite the halo being introduced for the start of the 2018 season, I feel for me the 2017 and 2018 seasons both sort of blend into one, I struggle to differentiate one from the other.

Similar championship battles - Vettel looking good to challenge Hamilton early but falling away later in both seasons due to driver and team errors, many teams having static driver line-ups (and Renault and Toro Rosso both having their 2018 line-ups in place in late 2017), both championships being decided in Mexico with Verstappen winning both times despite not being a title contender, Vettel winning both season openers overtaking Hamilton in the pits, McLaren struggling both years - the only big difference apart from the appearance of the cars I can think of was Leclerc's impressive debut season in the Sauber in '18!

"Poor old Warwick takes it from behind all throughout this season". :) (Tony Jardine, 1988)
by Rob Dylan 01 May 2021, 22:36
I have been having very similar experiences of much of the races following Rosberg's retirement. I think in most part it is Hamilton's ultrareliability that is causing me to forget. I vividly remember when he blew up in Malaysia 16 and in Austria 18, but yeah (other than last weekend of course) otherwise the lack of real surprises is playing tricks with my memory as to "famous races where something truly impactful and exciting for the championship" happened.

Most seasons (or groups of seasons) have defining moments or themes - Prost v Senna, Schumacher domination in the early 00s, the craziness of 2007-2009, that kind of thing. For me though it feels like we have been in "the Mercedes moment" since 2014 really. Or at least we've been in the "Mercedes moment except there's no intra-team excitement because Rosberg retired" era since 2017.

Whilst I would agree that there have been great races from time to time, the defining thing about the four consecutive seasons after Rosberg, is that largely nothing has been done to topple Merc and Hamilton and give some real lasting excitement to the championship.

EXCEPT of course when the Ferraris both crashed at Singapore 2017, now THAT was era defining :badoer: :badoer: :badoer:

Murray Walker at the 1997 Austrian Grand Prix wrote:The other [Stewart] driver, who nobody's been paying attention to, because he's disappointing, is Jan Magnussen.


Felipe Nasr - the least forgettable F1 driver!
by Francophone 03 May 2021, 20:18
Rob Dylan wrote:I have been having very similar experiences of much of the races following Rosberg's retirement. I think in most part it is Hamilton's ultrareliability that is causing me to forget. I vividly remember when he blew up in Malaysia 16 and in Austria 18, but yeah (other than last weekend of course) otherwise the lack of real surprises is playing tricks with my memory as to "famous races where something truly impactful and exciting for the championship" happened.

Most seasons (or groups of seasons) have defining moments or themes - Prost v Senna, Schumacher domination in the early 00s, the craziness of 2007-2009, that kind of thing. For me though it feels like we have been in "the Mercedes moment" since 2014 really. Or at least we've been in the "Mercedes moment except there's no intra-team excitement because Rosberg retired" era since 2017.

Whilst I would agree that there have been great races from time to time, the defining thing about the four consecutive seasons after Rosberg, is that largely nothing has been done to topple Merc and Hamilton and give some real lasting excitement to the championship.

EXCEPT of course when the Ferraris both crashed at Singapore 2017, now THAT was era defining :badoer: :badoer: :badoer:


Seems as though my post got lost!

I was saying that Singapore 2017 summed up the hybrid era until arguably this season very well. Ferrari look like they might challenge Lewis , then at the start Seb , Kimi and Max crash into each other - while you know who stole through to win on a track in which he was very much unfancied. To top it off Ferrari imploded in the next couple of races in Malaysia and Japan with engine problems.

I'd agree with what you said about 2017 and 18 being similar - though the defining moment was more Seb imploding in 2018 at Hockenheim (and arguably hasn't been the same driver since) , compared to Ferrari the season before , while Lewis took full advantage.

2019 would have remembered as a much better season if it were ran in reverse , and similar to the previous two years - the consecutive Mercs 1-2s killed a lot of interest in both championships (especially after Lewis got going) . We had the emergence of Charles Leclerc and Ferrari in the second half , although powered by a cheating engine.

2020 was my favourite season of the hybrid era. Lewis and Merc crushed everyone with an iconic black liveried car , Max followed them home but behind them it was chaos with so many cars evenly matched , Ferrari being made to pay for their cheating engine. And there were some crazy races , results , two new winners , and two podiums with entirely midfield teams for the first time since Nurburgring 1999.
by James1978 15 May 2021, 19:56
Got another one which could possibly be deemed "unpopular".

Perez in the Red Bull just feels totally wrong to me. I miss him being attached to a midfield team where he was seen as one of the family and always punched above his weight. I know Aston Martin are struggling right now but he'd have happily stayed there had they not took Vettel, and also Red Bull would not have interrupted Albon's learning curve. I think the list of drivers who could do the job they need in the second car is very short indeed (ie be what Bottas is to Hamilton as he is good at spoiling the rival teams' strategy - think Spain 2017, Italy 2018 etc).

If we were looking at a past equivalent, it's like Pierluigi Martini getting fired from Minardi where he was loved, and the only option he had was to take something like the 2nd Benetton alongside Schumacher or the 2nd McLaren alongside Senna and obviously being nowhere near either of them!

"Poor old Warwick takes it from behind all throughout this season". :) (Tony Jardine, 1988)
by tBone 16 May 2021, 09:58
James1978 wrote:If we were looking at a past equivalent, it's like Pierluigi Martini getting fired from Minardi where he was loved, and the only option he had was to take something like the 2nd Benetton alongside Schumacher or the 2nd McLaren alongside Senna and obviously being nowhere near either of them!

...Or Mika Salo getting dumped by Arrows and left without a seat, only to end up in a Ferrari halfway through the year?

YOUR
LOGO

Here
by Rob Dylan 16 May 2021, 15:33
I agree that it's weird seeing Pérez driving for "the man" rather than punching above his weight as the underdog that he's been seen as practically his whole career. I only hope he moves up from underdog to top-level driver this year - it would be a shame for that talent to be wasted as a form of Fisichellitis when I think he could win this year in that car.

Murray Walker at the 1997 Austrian Grand Prix wrote:The other [Stewart] driver, who nobody's been paying attention to, because he's disappointing, is Jan Magnussen.


Felipe Nasr - the least forgettable F1 driver!
by James1978 16 May 2021, 19:27
tBone wrote:
James1978 wrote:If we were looking at a past equivalent, it's like Pierluigi Martini getting fired from Minardi where he was loved, and the only option he had was to take something like the 2nd Benetton alongside Schumacher or the 2nd McLaren alongside Senna and obviously being nowhere near either of them!

...Or Mika Salo getting dumped by Arrows and left without a seat, only to end up in a Ferrari halfway through the year?


Not really as Salo had only been with Arrows for a year and not attached to the team in the way Martini was and Perez was for Racing Point. Though he did impress me at Tyrrell, especially the early part of 1996 where he often mixed it with McLarens and Jordans and the like. Maybe a better real-life example would be Ivan Capelli after some great performances with March/Leyton House, struggling at Ferrari - basically was the end of his career then.

"Poor old Warwick takes it from behind all throughout this season". :) (Tony Jardine, 1988)
by James1978 07 Jun 2021, 19:57
Scratch what I said above about Perez after what happened yesterday! :-)

But I have one here that will definitely be deemed unpopular by some anyway - every time I hear of a 2021 race been cancelled/postponed due to Covid, such as recent examples Canada, Turkey and now Singapore - I keep thinking they shouldn't replace them with other venues (such as Austria having 2 races) as 23 rounds is too many and I want to see the calendar cut down to a more reasonable size!!

"Poor old Warwick takes it from behind all throughout this season". :) (Tony Jardine, 1988)
by Ataxia 07 Jun 2021, 20:34
James1978 wrote:Scratch what I said above about Perez after what happened yesterday! :-)

But I have one here that will definitely be deemed unpopular by some anyway - every time I hear of a 2021 race been cancelled/postponed due to Covid, such as recent examples Canada, Turkey and now Singapore - I keep thinking they shouldn't replace them with other venues (such as Austria having 2 races) as 23 rounds is too many and I want to see the calendar cut down to a more reasonable size!!


Agreed 100%.

Mitch Hedberg wrote:I want to be a race car passenger: just a guy who bugs the driver. Say man, can I turn on the radio? You should slow down. Why do we gotta keep going in circles? Man, you really like Tide...
by Freeze-O-Kimi 07 Jun 2021, 22:07
James1978 wrote:Scratch what I said above about Perez after what happened yesterday! :-)

But I have one here that will definitely be deemed unpopular by some anyway - every time I hear of a 2021 race been cancelled/postponed due to Covid, such as recent examples Canada, Turkey and now Singapore - I keep thinking they shouldn't replace them with other venues (such as Austria having 2 races) as 23 rounds is too many and I want to see the calendar cut down to a more reasonable size!!


I don’t think that’s unpopular at all. IMO it shouldn’t be any more than 19. I’m also not keen on the season still going in early December either. Early November finish used to be fine.
by Rob Dylan 08 Jun 2021, 08:32
James1978 wrote:Scratch what I said above about Perez after what happened yesterday! :-)

But I have one here that will definitely be deemed unpopular by some anyway - every time I hear of a 2021 race been cancelled/postponed due to Covid, such as recent examples Canada, Turkey and now Singapore - I keep thinking they shouldn't replace them with other venues (such as Austria having 2 races) as 23 rounds is too many and I want to see the calendar cut down to a more reasonable size!!
Haha, this must be the most popular "unpopular" opinion right now :D I suppose somebody somewhere has to please the phantom shareholders that are demanding 23 races a season, because in reality I think very few people, including the fans, actually want to have that level of fatigue come the end of the year.

For me it's as much the fixing of the number. I don't mind if one year we have 17 races, the next 20, the next 18, for whatever reason that occurs. That's ok! It doesn't have to be fixed the way they're trying to fix it. Ok, they wanted 23 races, but this year they might ONLY get 20 due to COVID. Oh well, nobody is mourning. They don't need to implement an Abu-Dhabi quadruple-header just to reach the magic 23 number that nobody wants anyway...

Murray Walker at the 1997 Austrian Grand Prix wrote:The other [Stewart] driver, who nobody's been paying attention to, because he's disappointing, is Jan Magnussen.


Felipe Nasr - the least forgettable F1 driver!
by Wallio 18 Jun 2021, 17:54
I'm not sure if this unpopular or not, but a trend that started last year ad really bothers me: Why does Liberty/Sky/Local TV peeps/Whoever only ever use footage from the V6-Hybrid era for the highlights in their "action zone" bits in the opening of sessions? I get that at like Algarve and Baku it can't be helped, but Barcelona? Imola? Austria? Silverstone? Come on! Hell, show some old turbo stuff from Paul Ricard this weekend you cowards!

Professional Historian/Retired Drag Racer/Hot Rod Builder/Whiskey & Cigar Enthusiast

"I've done the upside-down bit in one of these cars enough in my day!" - Martin Brundle Me too, Martin......me too.
by dr-baker 18 Jun 2021, 19:01
Wallio wrote:I'm not sure if this unpopular or not, but a trend that started last year ad really bothers me: Why does Liberty/Sky/Local TV peeps/Whoever only ever use footage from the V6-Hybrid era for the highlights in their "action zone" bits in the opening of sessions? I get that at like Algarve and Baku it can't be helped, but Barcelona? Imola? Austria? Silverstone? Come on! Hell, show some old turbo stuff from Paul Ricard this weekend you cowards!

Not unpopular with me at all. I have been thinking the same thing.

watka wrote:I find it amusing that whilst you're one of the more openly Christian guys here, you are still first and foremost associated with an eye for the ladies!
dinizintheoven wrote:GOOD CHRISTIANS do not go to jail. EVERYONE ON FORMULA ONE REJECTS should be in jail.
MCard LOLA

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 3 guests