The Sportscar and Endurance Thread

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Wallio
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Re: The Sportscar and Endurance Thread

Post by Wallio »

Damn, that's pretty bad actually since Ford is only building 500 GTs, and over 3 years! So they won't hit 300 early 2019 or so.

I wonder if Chevy will do the same with the C8?
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Re: The Sportscar and Endurance Thread

Post by Samster »

The Le Mans entry list has been released. As announced last year the grid is now 60 cars.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_24_Hours_of_Le_Mans

Toyota have finally decided to enter a third car, José María López is listed in their lineup.
LMP2 have a massive 25 cars, however all but 4 of them are either Orecas or Ligiers. Only three Dallaras and one Riley are entered. :facepalm:
Ruben Barrichello makes his Le Mans debut! :shock:
We have presumably the first ever Slovakian entry in ARC Bratislava.

I must say, Le Mans has lost alot of its interest for me. With LMP1 as pathetically low on entries as ever and LMP2 going to spec engines and semi-spec chassis we are left with only the ByKolles car as the only truly unique car around, we used to have so many of those up until a few years ago. :(
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Re: The Sportscar and Endurance Thread

Post by nome66 »

Samster wrote:LMP2 have a massive 25 cars, however all but 4 of them are either Orecas or Ligiers. Only three Dallaras and one Riley are entered. :facepalm:
Ruben Barrichello makes his Le Mans debut! :shock:
We have presumably the first ever Slovakian entry in ARC Bratislava.

all about how cheap and how close they are.
i read in Racecar Engineering not long ago that every time the top class Prototypes become competitive and entertaining to watch, things tend to get pricey and the FIA steps in and messes with the budgeting rules, which correlates with the decline in interest from the teams that would have entered, usually due to one team dominating every year. it may not be long before we see Bykolles go the way of Rebellion. Rebellion recently were only running modified Oreca 05's that they called the R-One. what the FIA and ACO did recently with LMP2 is an understandable move, honestly. surprised they didn't do that to LMP1. probably a big lobby against it, i'm sure.

i really hope somewhere down the line, the FIA and ACO let the american DPi's have a crack at LeMans as a once-per-season thing. or maybe the WEC could return to Sebring and Daytona if the "American Invasion" idea doesn't work out. i think the grid's too small as is lol
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Re: The Sportscar and Endurance Thread

Post by mario »

Samster wrote:The Le Mans entry list has been released. As announced last year the grid is now 60 cars.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_24_Hours_of_Le_Mans

Toyota have finally decided to enter a third car, José María López is listed in their lineup.
LMP2 have a massive 25 cars, however all but 4 of them are either Orecas or Ligiers. Only three Dallaras and one Riley are entered. :facepalm:
Ruben Barrichello makes his Le Mans debut! :shock:
We have presumably the first ever Slovakian entry in ARC Bratislava.

I must say, Le Mans has lost alot of its interest for me. With LMP1 as pathetically low on entries as ever and LMP2 going to spec engines and semi-spec chassis we are left with only the ByKolles car as the only truly unique car around, we used to have so many of those up until a few years ago. :(

I'm not that surprised that the LMP2 grid is dominated by Oreca's and Ligier's - they have been by far and away the most popular models, and if anything I wouldn't have been surprised if they had been the only two manufacturers in the LMP2 field altogether.

With regards to the LMP1 field, there was talk that the ACO has been furiously lobbying both Porsche and Toyota to up their entries to three cars for Le Mans. It looks like Toyota have finally caved in, but I guess that the VW Group still has fairly tight financial restrictions in place for Porsche if they are not going to run a third car this year. I have to agree that, with the precipitous decline in manufacturers in the LMP1 class and the standardised spec in the LMP2 class, much of the diversity that the WEC used to have has been sucked out of the sport - it looks diverse, but has actually become much narrower beneath the skin.

nome66 wrote:i really hope somewhere down the line, the FIA and ACO let the american DPi's have a crack at LeMans as a once-per-season thing. or maybe the WEC could return to Sebring and Daytona if the "American Invasion" idea doesn't work out. i think the grid's too small as is lol

They have considered the prospect, but the problem is that they can't work out how they would fit into the grid at Le Mans.

They can't run in the LMP2 category because, although the DPi cars are based around the current LMP2 chassis rules, there are certain differences in permitted aero and engine packages that means that they would probably have a performance advantage over the standard WEC spec LMP2 cars.

One option that has been considered would be modifying the cars so they could run in the privateer LMP1 class instead - however, there have been some teams who have raised questions over the potential additional costs that they would be faced with. Furthermore, there then comes the issue of balancing the performance of the cars between the LMP2 cars and the manufacturer LMP1 cars - the latter in particular being rather keen not to see their efforts being upstaged by the DPi's if the ACO got the performance balance wrong.
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Re: The Sportscar and Endurance Thread

Post by Dj_bereta »

Toyota could follow Audi's footsteps. This will be a huge blow to LPM1 if happens.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.ph ... oyota-exit
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Re: The Sportscar and Endurance Thread

Post by mario »

Dj_bereta wrote:Toyota could follow Audi's footsteps. This will be a huge blow to LPM1 if happens.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.ph ... oyota-exit

It seems that the ACO have got themselves into a bit of a difficult situation over the future regulation packages.

Audi's withdrawal has pushed them into freezing the current regulation package until 2019 instead of pushing through their plans to push the hybrid systems even further (they'd planned on raising the storage capacity to 10MJ in 2018, but that has gone out the window as the teams revolted over the costs).

If they water down the future regulation packages, it will represent a loss of face for the ACO (given that they have advertised themselves as promoting road relevant technologies) and, as that article suggests, potentially lose Toyota. There is even a potential risk of a full scale collapse in the LMP1 class in that instance, since it is questionable whether Porsche would still stay if they were effectively the only entrant in that class (especially if the VW Group wanted to push for further savings in their motorsport programme).

On the other hand, Peugeot have dropped some fairly heavy hints that they would consider entering if the cost of competing could be brought down, and they are reportedly pushing for the hybrid elements to be cut back given that development costs in that area are particularly high.

I guess that it will depend whether the ACO thinks that it will ultimately gain more entries than it may potentially lose - they might be prepared to call Toyota's bluff and simplify the regulations if they are fairly confident that Peugeot will enter, but it is a risky strategy.
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Re: The Sportscar and Endurance Thread

Post by Wallio »

Le Mans is this weekend and this thread is down in page 2? Sad guys.

Anyway, Nakajima banzai'd his way to a new track record!!! He even beat the old record from 1985 when the track was noticeably shorter!!! And on the MEDIUM tyres.

Makes it all the worse that there's no Audi, as Toyota looks genuinely fast, but people will no doubt say "They didn't beat anyone"

EDIT: I'm a moron its obviously Kaumi.

EDIT 2: Here's a video of the lap. Ureal how stable the car is. No real "moments" at all.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uo2aRIaEIbA
Last edited by Wallio on 16 Jun 2017, 17:53, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Sportscar and Endurance Thread

Post by Dom_Wings »

King Kamui!!!

(and Wallio; I guess you meant Kobayashi, not Nakajima :P)
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Re: The Sportscar and Endurance Thread

Post by mario »

Wallio wrote:Le Mans is this weekend and this thread is down in page 2? Sad guys.

Anyway, Nakajima banzai'd his way to a new track record!!! He even beat the old record from 1985 when the track was noticeably shorter!!! And on the MEDIUM tyres.

Makes it all the worse that there's no Audi, as Toyota looks genuinely fast, but people will no doubt say "They didn't beat anyone"

There does seem to be a fair amount of goodwill towards Totoya given what happened to the team last year, so I think that they probably would be praised if they did win.

It has to be said that the LMP1 field is looking very thin though - it's bad enough that it is down to six entrants this year, but in a few races we'll be down to the point where you could count the entire LMP1 field on one hand and still have fingers left over.

On another note, the ACO has also published their first draft of the 2020 regulation package, which features some interesting ideas. http://www.dailysportscar.com/2017/06/1 ... lined.html

One proposed change is to insist that, after pitting, the cars must drive for a minimum distance of 1km on electric power only. The cars would also be required to cross the finish line under electric power only in order to be classified as a finisher (though they are still working on the details of that proposal) - which, if I am honest, does seem like a bit of a gimmick.
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Re: The Sportscar and Endurance Thread

Post by Wallio »

Reject_Dom wrote:King Kamui!!!

(and Wallio; I guess you meant Kobayashi, not Nakajima :P)


I'm a bloody idiot. That's what I get for doing this pre-coffee.

mario wrote:On another note, the ACO has also published their first draft of the 2020 regulation package, which features some interesting ideas. http://www.dailysportscar.com/2017/06/1 ... lined.html

One proposed change is to insist that, after pitting, the cars must drive for a minimum distance of 1km on electric power only. The cars would also be required to cross the finish line under electric power only in order to be classified as a finisher (though they are still working on the details of that proposal) - which, if I am honest, does seem like a bit of a gimmick.


I like the safety changes, and the cost reduction stuff, and I rather like movable aero, but the plug in stuff? Don't see it happening.
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Re: The Sportscar and Endurance Thread

Post by mario »

Wallio wrote:
Reject_Dom wrote:King Kamui!!!

(and Wallio; I guess you meant Kobayashi, not Nakajima :P)


I'm a bloody idiot. That's what I get for doing this pre-coffee.

mario wrote:On another note, the ACO has also published their first draft of the 2020 regulation package, which features some interesting ideas. http://www.dailysportscar.com/2017/06/1 ... lined.html

One proposed change is to insist that, after pitting, the cars must drive for a minimum distance of 1km on electric power only. The cars would also be required to cross the finish line under electric power only in order to be classified as a finisher (though they are still working on the details of that proposal) - which, if I am honest, does seem like a bit of a gimmick.


I like the safety changes, and the cost reduction stuff, and I rather like movable aero, but the plug in stuff? Don't see it happening.

I agree that the safety changes look like a definite step in the right direction, especially given the back injuries that Nakajima suffered from in his crash in 2015. The cost reduction measures are something of a mixed bag - some measures seem positive, but I'm a bit worried that the token system could be a bit too restrictive.

I agree that the measures being taken on the hybrid systems seem like a misstep though - firstly, I am not sure that it will achieve the ACO's goal of reducing the costs enough to lure new manufacturers in (it might even have the reverse effect).

Secondly, it feels like a real gimmick given that Nissan ZEOD "Garage 56" entry was capable of running an entire lap at full racing speed on battery power alone back in 2014, whilst Panoz are eyeing up a potential "Garage 56" entry themselves with a fully electric car that could run between 90 - 110 miles on a single charge in full race conditions. It's essentially doing something that is inferior to what could be achieved six years prior - it's not really pushing the boundaries of technology and just smacks of a marketing ploy by the ACO that is driven by their desire to market hybrid systems.
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Re: The Sportscar and Endurance Thread

Post by nome66 »

Honda/HPD's return to IMSA Prototypes as it stands....
http://www.racer.com/imsa/item/141493-i ... -continues
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Re: The Sportscar and Endurance Thread

Post by Wallio »

nome66 wrote:Honda/HPD's return to IMSA Prototypes as it stands....
http://www.racer.com/imsa/item/141493-i ... -continues


Wait, so Penske is running Hondas in IMSA next year? How did I miss that announcement?

So that means:

IndyCar: Penske-Chevy, Ganassi-Honda
IMSA: Penske-Honda, Ganassi-Ford
NASCAR: Penske-Ford, Ganassi-Chevy
RX: Ganassi-Ford

Thats hard to follow lol.
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Re: The Sportscar and Endurance Thread

Post by dinizintheoven »

What is going on at Le Mans? Three LMP1 cars have retired (ByKolles after seven laps, no surprises there), two of them have had a lengthy spell in the garage and only the #1 Porsche is still running untroubled after half the race. The #2 Porsche is far enough behind at this stage that, if the #1 runs into the same trouble or retires...

...could it be that the overall race win goes to an LMP2 car this year?

I'll have a look in the morning...
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Re: The Sportscar and Endurance Thread

Post by Butterfox »

Toyota really can't catch a break, can they? To be fair, i don't mind LMP2's winning. But i suppose some LMP2's will also have reliability issues, it's only halfway. LMGTE meanwhile is a very exciting battle.
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Re: The Sportscar and Endurance Thread

Post by Samster »

The only thing left that can make this race redeemable now is if the #1 Porsche drops out. Has anyone ever won by more than 12 laps before? Certainly not since I've been watching. Surely no one wants a single LMP1 running away with it with no one left to challenge.

Come on Le Mans gods. I want the #1 Porsche sacrificed to make up for Toyota's early morning disasters. Then it would be between the LMP2 leaders and the recovering #2 Porsche. Who look like they don't quite have enough time to catch all the LMP2s.

Frankly if both Porsche and Toyota pulled out next year, I wouldn't be sad. We have both Ginetta and Perrin coming in to make LMP1 interesting again, who needs them?
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Re: The Sportscar and Endurance Thread

Post by This Could Be You »

Samster wrote:The only thing left that can make this race redeemable now is if the #1 Porsche drops out.

Your wish has been granted! :D

It will now be interesting to see if the #2 Porsche can catch the leading LMP2s (I know how weird this sounds) in the remaining time. It should be possible, but I would prefer a Jackie Chan win :P
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Re: The Sportscar and Endurance Thread

Post by AdrianBelmonte_ »

The #2 Porsche took the lead!!
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Re: The Sportscar and Endurance Thread

Post by dinizintheoven »

Eish. Commentator's curse and all that. Still, it does mean Earl Bamber is on course for a second win...

...Toyota fans will have something to say, mind.
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Re: The Sportscar and Endurance Thread

Post by Butterfox »

Also nice for Jackie Chans team to finish 2nd and 4th overal and 2 podiums in their class.

GTE-pro battle was nice.

And a Belgian winning something, even if it's just GTE-am
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Re: The Sportscar and Endurance Thread

Post by Dj_bereta »

Ho-Pin Tung almost won with a LMP2 car! :dance: At least he won in the LMP2 class. First Chinese to win in Le Mans.

Slamdunk ROTR for Toyota: two retirements and one car behind several LMP2 cars in a distant 8th overall place finish.
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Re: The Sportscar and Endurance Thread

Post by Peteroli34 »

It is a shame that an LMP2 didn't win the race. iT would be great to see such a crazy race that the winner was a GTE-AM car or something.

ROTR Goes to LMP1
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Re: The Sportscar and Endurance Thread

Post by dr-baker »

In the comic books/handed desinées, did the Vaillantes ever get an overall podium in an LMP2/675/equivalent? Or a truth stranger than fiction? I'm just disappointed that it was the Piquet car that managed it rather than the Prost/Senna car (the number 13 did seem the more likely during the night).
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Re: The Sportscar and Endurance Thread

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dr-baker wrote:In the comic books/handed desinées, did the Vaillantes ever get an overall podium in an LMP2/675/equivalent? Or a truth stranger than fiction? I'm just disappointed that it was the Piquet car that managed it rather than the Prost/Senna car (the number 13 did seem the more likely during the night).

Vaillante have largely stayed away from Le Mans since the introduction of the LMP categories at the expense of more interesting categories. They appeared around 2010, but presumably in LMP1 and (spoilers ahead) got disqualified for doping offenses.
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Re: The Sportscar and Endurance Thread

Post by andrew »

ROTR. All the LMP1 hybrids, I mean they all broke down at some point, the only one not to have a failure was the 9 Toyota (who had a puncture which damaged the gearbox I believe)
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Re: The Sportscar and Endurance Thread

Post by Peteroli34 »

So the winning Aston Martin Vantage GTE was apparantly the first Vantage built back in 2008. So Aston Martin won at le mans for the first time since 2008 in a car that was built before their last Victory.
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Re: The Sportscar and Endurance Thread

Post by sswishbone »

Rebellion have been disqualified for cutting a hole in a homologated part so they could tap the starter motor, so Jackie Chan has got a double podium
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Re: The Sportscar and Endurance Thread

Post by Wallio »

Jackie Chan finishing 2-3 overall

Ho-Ping Tung winning his class (although as the YouTube live feed commentators kept telling us every 3 seconds, he's not really Chinese, as if that matters)

All the LMP1s failing

A last lap pass in GTE

Attrition RULES! And once again Le Mans lived up to "The World's Greatest Motor Race"
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Re: The Sportscar and Endurance Thread

Post by dr-baker »

Wallio wrote:Jackie Chan finishing 2-3 overall

Ho-Ping Tung winning his class (although as the YouTube live feed commentators kept telling us every 3 seconds, he's not really Chinese, as if that matters)

All the LMP1s failing

A last lap pass in GTE

Attrition RULES! And once again Le Mans lived up to "The World's Greatest Motor Race"

To be honest, I was hoping that if there were to be post-race penalties, it would happen to the winning LMP1 Porsche, just for the LOLZ of an LMP2 outright winner...
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Re: The Sportscar and Endurance Thread

Post by Butterfox »

I believe that calls for playing this song.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AE4S2Z_NZ6o
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Re: The Sportscar and Endurance Thread

Post by Dom_Wings »

gg wp, Rebellion. :facepalm:
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Re: The Sportscar and Endurance Thread

Post by sswishbone »

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.ph ... -programme

The end is nigh, the end is nigh, run away, the end is nigh, nigh.

Well apparently, Porsche dropping out means officially Toyota are the only manufacturer with Ginetta's privateer entry and Bykolles the only others at the moment. LMP2 outright win in 2018?
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Re: The Sportscar and Endurance Thread

Post by FMecha »

sswishbone wrote:http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/130956/porsche-quits-lmp1-for-formula-e-programme

The end is nigh, the end is nigh, run away, the end is nigh, nigh.

Well apparently, Porsche dropping out means officially Toyota are the only manufacturer with Ginetta's privateer entry and Bykolles the only others at the moment. LMP2 outright win in 2018?


If Toyota still continue to mess up (which, mark my words, will always happen) and the private LMP1 entries come to fruition, a private LMP1 victory is more likely. :|
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Re: The Sportscar and Endurance Thread

Post by Wallio »

This goes back to my rant from a few weeks ago, is FE really THAT popular? It must be. Of course the upcoming ban on petrol cars in 2040 no doubt helped that. Oh well. LMP3s in the big show now? DPIs in LMP1? The ACO has to do something.
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Re: The Sportscar and Endurance Thread

Post by dinizintheoven »

Anyone who asks me will get the same answer: Formula E is, in many ways, the most important racing series we have now. Never mind that some of the tracks are hastily designed and substandard, never mind the odd Ma Qing-Hua that slides through the quality control net, the fact is that the series works and it shows that motor racing without internal combustion engines is possible (if we ignore the way the cars are recharged behind the scenes, but that's a problem for others to solve). The cars at the end of season three might not be able to make a whole race distance on a single charge, but they can go further on a single charge than they did in season one so pitting for a car change two or three laps before the midpoint isn't a complete disaster. And, maybe one day, there will be no need for Formula E to exist as a separate series if it paves the way for Formula 1 to switch to electric cars, most likely around 2040, and Max Verstappen's future offspring will be the first ever electrically-powered Formula 1 World Champion, having been groomed for the job since conception.

But, even when Formula E was in its planning stages, I could see a potential problem, especially when the need was revealed for two cars to get through a race that was half the length of that for Formula 1: what is endurance racing going to do when all the oil runs out? Or will it just... cease to exist? It doesn't need to happen. For all that Formula E attempts to advance electric cars, electrically-powered endurance racing needs an on-board generator that doesn't rely on fossil fuels. We need Formula H - a series for hydrogen fuel cell powered cars, and if there's to be any concern about having a crash in a car filled with a highly flammable compressed gas, I'm sure the LPG industry could help out with that (I'm told a modern LPG tank is far safer than any petrol tank ever produced). They may as well make it a closed-cockpit, closed-wheel series to show that it's there to advance endurance racing towards a hydrogen-powered future, and why not hold the races on weekends where Formula E drivers aren't racing so they could compete in both series; I'd imagine hydrogen-powered cars with electrical energy recovery systems will need to be driven much the same way as Formula E cars, just without the constant threat of concrete walls at each side of the track and hairpins the cars can't get round.

Anyway, if there's a representative from the ACO reading this, send a royalty cheque. Then get the series started. And get Honda involved - never mind the current F1 disaster, they know a thing or two about fuel cells.
James Allen, on his favourite F1 engine of all time:
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dr-baker
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Re: The Sportscar and Endurance Thread

Post by dr-baker »

Definitely agree on the FH concept. After all, Britain has its first Hydrogen pump at a Shell petrol station already, at Cobham services in M25.
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Re: The Sportscar and Endurance Thread

Post by Wallio »

dinizintheoven wrote:
But, even when Formula E was in its planning stages, I could see a potential problem, especially when the need was revealed for two cars to get through a race that was half the length of that for Formula 1: what is endurance racing going to do when all the oil runs out? Or will it just... cease to exist?



Bring back Group C rules. Displacement limit, weight limit, and total number of litres of fuel allowed (diesels and hybrids get less) and thats pretty much it. Build them and run them. But dare I say that would pull all the manufacturers out of Formula E, which would be bad for the FIA. #HotTakes
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Re: The Sportscar and Endurance Thread

Post by mario »

sswishbone wrote:http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/130956/porsche-quits-lmp1-for-formula-e-programme

The end is nigh, the end is nigh, run away, the end is nigh, nigh.

Well apparently, Porsche dropping out means officially Toyota are the only manufacturer with Ginetta's privateer entry and Bykolles the only others at the moment. LMP2 outright win in 2018?

With the withdrawal of Porsche, it has raised the question of whether Toyota will think it is worth continuing to race in the WEC next year (they are officially committed until 2019, but at the same time Audi was supposed to be committed until at least this year). I also do have to wonder whether Kolles will return with his car in 2018, or if he will close down his operations too - especially if there is the prospect of more intense competition next year.

It does seem plausible that we could see an LMP2 car taking victory next year - we may see new privateer LMP1 entrants, but I can see the new cars encountering problems whilst simultaneously having less of a pace advantage over the LMP2 cars than the current hybrid LMP1 cars have over the LMP2 entrants (making it harder to make up for lost time in the garage). By contrast, the LMP2 cars should be be a bit more reliable as they are entering their second year, and you would expect Gibson to have addressed the starter motor issues that plagued a number of entrants this year.

It does also raise the question of whether the ACO might choose to swallow their pride and allow the Daytona Prototype entrants to compete at Le Mans as well. They might not be keen on the idea, and it could create friction with both the LMP1 and LMP2 runners, but it would give them a potential way of creating a lower cost category for manufacturers.
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Re: The Sportscar and Endurance Thread

Post by Dj_bereta »

So, LMP1 is virtually over for 2019 and beyond, considering Toyota isn't going to race "alone" for much time. Le Mans 2019 is going to be interesting with a lot of teams fighting for the victory in LMP2 cars.
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Re: The Sportscar and Endurance Thread

Post by Butterfox »

In 24 hours of Zolder, the sportscars were finally reliable enough to beat the horde of porsche supercups, making it a 1-2-3 for manufacturer Norma. Also Ligier and Wolf did very well. Also it means the dominance of Belgium Racing is finally over.
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