The "we are still using doping" Cycling-thread!

Myrvold · Post by **Myrvold** » 05 Jul 2012, 20:41

So. Tour de France have started. Another year, another year of Lance Armstrong stories. And another year of stages, that always, always, always, throws up a surprise or two.

But, does anyone really follow this? And, I hope no-one believes that the sport is anywhere near clean. I thought so, shouldn't joined a couple of buddies who went on a training camp in Italy...

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 05 Jul 2012, 21:00

Part of me does wonder if Peter Sagan is using some really potent EPO or something.

The problem a lot of the time is teams bullying their riders into blood transfusions or other methods of doping. Graeme Obree comes to mind. Quit his pro team because they told him to dope or be fired. Thus, he never truly became a pro cyclist despite being as quick as Boardman. I don't know what said team is, but my guess would have been Motorola. They had a lot of dopers on their team; with notable inclusions like Lance Armstrong and George Hincapie. And Team Sky's directeur sportif Sean Yates.

shinji · Post by **shinji** » 05 Jul 2012, 21:13

kostas22 wrote:Part of me does wonder if Peter Sagan is using some really potent EPO or something.

Yeah, two things tend to set off alarm bells for me, in any sport really. Precocious ability, and coming to the fore of the sport 'out of nowhere'. Sagan ticks both of those boxes to a certain extent. I quote from Sagan's Wiki page - "Liquigas doctors and managers were stunned by results of Sagan's medical tests saying they have never ever seen a rider of 19 years of age so physically strong and capable as Sagan".

I hope there's nothing untoward, but you can't really help but have suspicions.

By the way, how many more sports are going to get their own threads? I want my own Northern Hemisphere Rugby thread to discuss the intricacies of Leinster's 2nd row deficiencies with myself :lol:

Phoenix · Post by **Phoenix** » 05 Jul 2012, 22:27

I might as well start the "Bjorn Borg Comeback" Tennis Thread beacuse, you know, I like tennis and Rafa Nadal is from Majorca

Myrvold · Post by **Myrvold** » 05 Jul 2012, 22:29

Yup. To add to this doping thingy. Talked a bit with one of the guys I went with today. He said he would probably retire after this season. Which is a shame. But, he gave me a quite logic reason really.

He had three choices.
1. Work hard, and most likely get a career as a solid rider, that will most likely be classified as a "team mate". That means he will be able to go in some breakaways, but his main job, will forever be to help the team captains. It's a job, with not much money to earn. Lots of hard work, and not much else. And this, with the knowledge that many of the "better" riders are far from clean.

2. Stop being a clean rider. Work just as hard, but not the legal way. Therefor be a better rider. No Cav, no Armstrong (not saying Cav is using any illegal medicaments). But a better rider, which will get a lot more chances to go for his own chances, victories in smaller races. Some more money, and more fame. But with the knowledge, that he is using illegal ways to get that far

3. Retire.

It's a shame that it comes to this. I also tried to get some information about the Norwegian riders. And it seemed like the general thought was that Edvald Boasson Hagen is a huge natural talent, and is clean. When I said that it seemed to me that Thor Hushovd did things last year that got me thinking of doping. I just got a nod...
Though, all of the teams Boasson Hagen has been in as a youngster, is apparently well known to use doping.

The only thing I regret was going with them before TdF, not after. It kinda took the joy away for me.

EDIT: Oh, and I started the thread because I saw in some replies in another thread that it looked like some here was under the imagination (like I was) that the cycling sport is getting cleaner.

Aerospeed · Post by **Aerospeed** » 06 Jul 2012, 00:08

Liking the thread name. :lol:

madmark1974 · Post by **madmark1974** » 06 Jul 2012, 08:37

Myrvold wrote:So. Tour de France have started. Another year, another year of Lance Armstrong stories. And another year of stages, that always, always, always, throws up a surprise or two.

But, does anyone really follow this? And, I hope no-one believes that the sport is anywhere near clean. I thought so, shouldn't joined a couple of buddies who went on a training camp in Italy...

To answer the OP, I always try to watch the evening highlights (we get a 1 hour package) - there is also live coverage but that's at work time. I always find it very enjoyable, and it really is amazing
what these guys put themselves through - a real feat of human strength and endurance (whether 'artificially enhanced' or not) ... especially with the mountain climbs coming up soon.

There seem to be an awful lot of crashes so far this year for some reason.

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 06 Jul 2012, 12:36

madmark1974 wrote:
Myrvold wrote:So. Tour de France have started. Another year, another year of Lance Armstrong stories. And another year of stages, that always, always, always, throws up a surprise or two.

But, does anyone really follow this? And, I hope no-one believes that the sport is anywhere near clean. I thought so, shouldn't joined a couple of buddies who went on a training camp in Italy...

To answer the OP, I always try to watch the evening highlights (we get a 1 hour package) - there is also live coverage but that's at work time. I always find it very enjoyable, and it really is amazing
what these guys put themselves through - a real feat of human strength and endurance (whether 'artificially enhanced' or not) ... especially with the mountain climbs coming up soon.

There seem to be an awful lot of crashes so far this year for some reason.

My theory is, now that the HTC Train has been split up, a whole selection of riders who used to work for each other now work against each other at different teams, therefore there are more teams trying to barge their way to the front of the peleton near the end and the extra bodies is causing the crashes. Even though Farrar blamed Argos-Shimano for yesterday's crash, it was Lampre's fault, Petacchi just came right across him for no good reason.

BMC have been very anonymous on the flat stages so far. Which can only be a good thing, it means Hincapie and Van Gardern are keeping Evans well protected.

shinji · Post by **shinji** » 06 Jul 2012, 15:13

Ah Sagan, don't push your luck.

Myrvold · Post by **Myrvold** » 06 Jul 2012, 15:15

shinji wrote:Ah Sagan, don't push your luck.

That was my thought today as well. It seems, a bit too good.

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 06 Jul 2012, 18:59

Cancellara said in an interview after the stage that the accident began right next to him. Lampre rider collapsed. I just wonder if it was Petacchi again, if it is, and he caused another big accident, he should probably be kicked out of the Tour.

Also, I think Garmin-Sharp are going to run out of riders before the end of the Tour at this rate. Danielson has abandoned, and they have five riders injured (Hesjedal, Millar, Farrar, Van Summern, Vande Velde). That leaves them with only Robbie Hunter, David Zabriskie and Daniel Martin relatively unscathed and fit enough to push to the limit. All they can realistically do now is run Hunter and Zabriskie as dedicated domestiques for Martin and hope that amounts to something, and also that David Millar recovers enough during the next two weeks to try and have a shot at winning the next ITT. The rest of the team will probably join Tony Martin and Luis León Sánchez at the back of the field just trying to make the end of the mountain stages without missing the maximum cut-off.

Myrvold · Post by **Myrvold** » 07 Jul 2012, 00:11

kostas22 wrote:Cancellara said in an interview after the stage that the accident began right next to him. Lampre rider collapsed. I just wonder if it was Petacchi again, if it is, and he caused another big accident, he should probably be kicked out of the Tour.

Also, I think Garmin-Sharp are going to run out of riders before the end of the Tour at this rate. Danielson has abandoned, and they have five riders injured (Hesjedal, Millar, Farrar, Van Summern, Vande Velde). That leaves them with only Robbie Hunter, David Zabriskie and Daniel Martin relatively unscathed and fit enough to push to the limit. All they can realistically do now is run Hunter and Zabriskie as dedicated domestiques for Martin and hope that amounts to something, and also that David Millar recovers enough during the next two weeks to try and have a shot at winning the next ITT. The rest of the team will probably join Tony Martin and Luis León Sánchez at the back of the field just trying to make the end of the mountain stages without missing the maximum cut-off.

Well, it seemed like Tyler Farrar disagrees with you, and puts the blame on the Argos-Shimano rider!

And, Tony Martin will not finish TdF did Brian Holm (sporting director of Omega Pharma - Quick Step) tell Norwegian TV. They hope he will regain some fitness to try to win the next ITT, but then it's no point in having him there.

I find Brian Holm to be very honest and outspoken about things!

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 08 Jul 2012, 14:37

OK, what the hell is going on with Sagan? He's the only sprinter left in the peleton, and his Liquigas team is pacesetting the peleton to try and catch the breakaway and win the stage. A freaking MOUNTIAIN STAGE. Being won by a sprinter?! This guy is either Superman or loaded on EPO.

F1000X · Post by **F1000X** » 09 Jul 2012, 01:48

kostas22 wrote:OK, what the hell is going on with Sagan? He's the only sprinter left in the peleton, and his Liquigas team is pacesetting the peleton to try and catch the breakaway and win the stage. A freaking MOUNTAIN STAGE. Being won by a sprinter?! This guy is either Superman or loaded on EPO.

I agree. Something isn't right, he doesn't have the experience to pull this off. All eyes are going to be on the drug tests when the green jersey competition is over.

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 09 Jul 2012, 10:34

F1000X wrote:
kostas22 wrote:OK, what the hell is going on with Sagan? He's the only sprinter left in the peleton, and his Liquigas team is pacesetting the peleton to try and catch the breakaway and win the stage. A freaking MOUNTAIN STAGE. Being won by a sprinter?! This guy is either Superman or loaded on EPO.

I agree. Something isn't right, he doesn't have the experience to pull this off. All eyes are going to be on the drug tests when the green jersey competition is over.

Well, he got dropped eventually by the strong pace of Lotto-Belisol, but still, him and Danilo Hondo (who is a convicted doper) were miles ahead of all the other sprinters.

The difference between Sagan and Hushovd last year is Thor already had lots of Tour experience, and he made scoring well in the intermediates his gameplan anyway. And as a result, he wasn't so strong in the flat stage finishes. Sagan however has been strong everywhere, on his tour debut. It just doesn't add up. Notably, his right hand man Ivan Basso has also been banned for doping in the past...

Myrvold · Post by **Myrvold** » 09 Jul 2012, 11:41

Basso have zero positive tests. I'm sure that he did cheat a lot. But he got banned for "the intention to use". Not from a positive test.

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 09 Jul 2012, 12:20

Myrvold wrote:Basso have zero positive tests. I'm sure that he did cheat a lot. But he got banned for "the intention to use". Not from a positive test.

Indeed, he was named but not charged in Operación Puerto, due to insufficient evidence. But he would have been named in connection to it for a reason, and anyone Eufemiano Fuentes got near was automatically turned to a cheating doper. He dealt EPO like it was a street drug.

Yannick · Post by **Yannick** » 10 Jul 2012, 12:02

Professional cycling cannot be clean. Just look at the average speeds of the top riders. Are they any different than in Armstrong's days?

In a world where governments have "Secretaries of Sport", it's fairly easy to put political pressure on a national anti doping agency to leave loopholes for riders to win using illegal substances or to pressure the labs who make the analyses.

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 11 Jul 2012, 21:24

LITTLE TOMMY VOECKLER! That's what I'm talking 'bout. The man had zero strength left for the last 500m but would not give up. It may not be yellow, but at least he is back in a leader's jersey again. I hope he breaks tomorrow and tries to win the polka dot jersey, he will be helped by Samuel Sanchez's withdrawal.

Allez Voeckler

RonDenisDeletraz · Post by **RonDenisDeletraz** » 12 Jul 2012, 10:05

kostas22 wrote:LITTLE TOMMY VOECKLER! That's what I'm talking 'bout. The man had zero strength left for the last 500m but would not give up. It may not be yellow, but at least he is back in a leader's jersey again. I hope he breaks tomorrow and tries to win the polka dot jersey, he will be helped by Samuel Sanchez's withdrawal.

Allez Voeckler

That was an extremely good ride.

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 12 Jul 2012, 11:50

So, Di Gregorio was having ozone infused into his blood. The doctor who did the procedure has already admitted it. He's pretty much guaranteed a multi-year ban now.

RealRacingRoots · Post by **RealRacingRoots** » 13 Jul 2012, 03:41

I always enjoy the mountian stages of the tour,they always provide the most drama and the best races. Stage 8 and 10 I particularly enjoyed. I especially loved the drama when Pinot was being cheered on by the boss in the team car, it reminds me of when Mark Webber was being pushed on by his personal trainer when he had the pit board at the 2009 German Grand Prix.

Also, Bradley Wiggins' mutton chops are awesome.

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 13 Jul 2012, 09:47

RealRacingRoots wrote:I always enjoy the mountian stages of the tour,they always provide the most drama and the best races. Stage 8 and 10 I particularly enjoyed. I especially loved the drama when Pinot was being cheered on by the boss in the team car, it reminds me of when Mark Webber was being pushed on by his personal trainer when he had the pit board at the 2009 German Grand Prix.

If Europcar can poach him from FDJ, then they have two great French riders for the future. Rolland-Pinot. With Voeckler as a veteran there for support. Europcar have a bright future I think, at last recovering from losing Bbox & Bouyges Telecom as sponsors and ending up as a ProContinental team.

F1000X · Post by **F1000X** » 13 Jul 2012, 20:41

The ASO just handed the green jersey to Sagan. Thanks guys, thanks. Just take Goss out back and shoot him why don't you?

RealRacingRoots · Post by **RealRacingRoots** » 14 Jul 2012, 06:41

F1000X wrote:The ASO just handed the green jersey to Sagan. Thanks guys, thanks. Just take Goss out back and shoot him why don't you?

It looks like Goss gave him enough of a chop to deter Sagan from attempting a pass, imagine if someone did that on the pit straight on the last lap of a endurance race with the class victory on the line.

Talk about an underwhelming way to win the green jersey, unless the unthinkable happens on the upcoming stages.

AndreaModa · Post by **AndreaModa** » 14 Jul 2012, 12:30

Here's a fantastic article from the Guardian, written by Bradley Wiggins himself.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2012/jul/13/bradley-wiggins-dope-drugs?fb=native&CMP=FBCNETTXT9038

Sums up my entire feeling on cycling. Maybe it's a British thing I don't know, but the way he points out what he'd loose if he doped just underlines why people shouldn't be doing it, and why the sport is as clean as it ever has been. I absolutely abhor, I mean literally with every fibre of my being, people who come out all cynical and say "oh they're all doping, it's obvious, cycling means nothing anymore" etc, etc. There will be dopers, and there probably always will be, but we now have two fantastic, honest riders in Evans and Wiggins at the top of the sport, although the former is probably on his way out, they're leading a new generation of riders that aren't doping, and are reaping the rewards of being honest. I think this tour is a good indicator of this - look at the amount of new talent coming through and the new faces moving to the front to fight for the GC.

F1000X · Post by **F1000X** » 14 Jul 2012, 13:29

RealRacingRoots wrote:
F1000X wrote:The ASO just handed the green jersey to Sagan. Thanks guys, thanks. Just take Goss out back and shoot him why don't you?

It looks like Goss gave him enough of a chop to deter Sagan from attempting a pass, imagine if someone did that on the pit straight on the last lap of a endurance race with the class victory on the line.

It's been done, see Jamie Melo being the underhanded racer he's always been at Sebring. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQfO1yQ4j3w No penalty assessed.

Don't get me wrong, penalty earned. But docking him so many points that he ends the day with 4 less than he started with? Are you kidding me? We may be reaching the point today where people will begin to lose interest in green and yellow jersey competitions as they settle firmly into Sagan;s and Wiggens' hands.

Personally I'm most interested in the success of Tee Jay Van Garderen (for obvious reasons), and the individual stage victories. Thursday's crash and win was one for the history books.

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 14 Jul 2012, 14:13

You know why I hate British people so much? They don't give a toss about anything unless Britain is any good at it. I could ask an average Brit about what they thought of Peter Sagan and they'd ask "Who?". And then I'd explain he races in the Tour de France. And they'd ask; "What's that?" It's the jewel in the crown of professional cycling, the yellow jersey is the most sought after prize in the whole sport. "Oh, cycling! That's the thing Bradley Wiggins and Chris Froome are in! I love Tour de France! Go Wiggins and Froome"

Bunch of bathplugging James Hunts.

pasta_maldonado · Post by **pasta_maldonado** » 14 Jul 2012, 14:33

kostas22 wrote:You know why I hate British people so much? They don't give a toss about anything unless Britain is any good at it. I could ask an average Brit about what they thought of Peter Sagan and they'd ask "Who?". And then I'd explain he races in the Tour de France. And they'd ask; "What's that?" It's the jewel in the crown of professional cycling, the yellow jersey is the most sought after prize in the whole sport. "Oh, cycling! That's the thing Bradley Wiggins and Chris Froome are in! I love Tour de France! Go Wiggins and Froome"

Bunch of bathplugging James Hunts.

I'm British. I do not know who Peter Sagan is. I didn't know about the yellow jersey. I don't watch cycling, although not because there isn't a good Brit in it, I just javen't checked it out before. From what I've heard it sounds like a good sport to watch.

Although you are right, that is the opinion of most of the public, especially after over-hyping in the press etc. The British public are guilty of being totally ignorant about any sport that is not Football, ask anyone in the street who won the Premiership this year, and 95 % will be able to say Man City, but ask about cycling, running, cricket, rugby, formula one etc..., and most people will not be able to answer you

girry · Post by **girry** » 14 Jul 2012, 14:42

kostas22 wrote:You know why I hate British people so much? They don't give a toss about anything unless Britain is any good at it.

well, this is pretty much worldwide. Generally, people are interested in no sport unless they have played the sport themselves or have something to cheer for, which is usually a compatriot.

---

Read the thread and am amazed on how many people still think this 'cycling is doping' thingy. Noone realizes cycling is actually pretty much the only big sport where doping rules are regulated properly (barring athletics)? I would claim Cycling nowadays is much cleaner than say, Football, Tennis, American Football, Baseball etc etc. who have just laughable frequencies for drug testing.

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 14 Jul 2012, 15:06

giraurd wrote:Read the thread and am amazed on how many people still think this 'cycling is doping' thingy. Noone realizes cycling is actually pretty much the only big sport where doping rules are regulated properly (barring athletics)? I would claim Cycling nowadays is much cleaner than say, Football, Tennis, American Football, Baseball etc etc. who have just laughable frequencies for drug testing.

Yeah, it's like what I said about Italian Serie A in the football thread - they have the reptuation for the most corrupt, most scandalous league, because FIGC are the only national football body actively doing anything about the problems within the sport. Other national bodies like the FA and SFA are happy to just sweep this type of thing under the carpet and hope it doesn't become public. They're more interested in protecting a reputation than having a genuine sport.

So, because the cycling authorities are starting to out dopers at every possible moment, it means there is a sudden epidemic? Nonsense. There are drug cheats in all sports. The difference is cycling has become more active than the rest at getting rid of the problem.

Bleu · Post by **Bleu** » 14 Jul 2012, 20:07

kostas22 wrote:
RealRacingRoots wrote:I always enjoy the mountian stages of the tour,they always provide the most drama and the best races. Stage 8 and 10 I particularly enjoyed. I especially loved the drama when Pinot was being cheered on by the boss in the team car, it reminds me of when Mark Webber was being pushed on by his personal trainer when he had the pit board at the 2009 German Grand Prix.

If Europcar can poach him from FDJ, then they have two great French riders for the future. Rolland-Pinot. With Voeckler as a veteran there for support. Europcar have a bright future I think, at last recovering from losing Bbox & Bouyges Telecom as sponsors and ending up as a ProContinental team.

Not sure if they are too upset of being relegated down to ProContinental - they don't have that much depth to field a decent team to other GTs. They will get place in TdF (and all other French races like Paris-Nice and Paris-Roubaix) regardless of their status.

Post by **Londoner** » 15 Jul 2012, 15:47

Apparently, someone has thrown a whole heap of tacks all over the road in the latest stage of the TdF. Loads and loads of punctures. :lol:

shinji · Post by **shinji** » 15 Jul 2012, 15:57

East Londoner wrote:Apparently, someone has thrown a whole heap of tacks all over the road in the latest stage of the TdF. Loads and loads of punctures.

Evans and one of his lesser-seen BMC team-mates both getting punctures pretty much simultaneously was pretty damn farcical anyway.

On that note, I love the Guardian live-blog's description of the tacks - "They look much like you'd expect tack to look: sharp and pointy, with a round base, like a smartie with a stiffy."

AndreaModa · Post by **AndreaModa** » 15 Jul 2012, 16:13

Pretty awful for BMC in general, but it was good of the peloton (or most of it anyway) to hang about for Evans and co. to catch up.

Sagan keeps on putting in the performances too, it was amazing to watch him tackle the two climbs with relative ease. Superb break by Sanchez though to win. I can't decide whether we're seeing the emergence of the next big star, or whether he's just another rider cheating. I want to believe the former, but I'm just not sure.

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 15 Jul 2012, 16:20

I think the F1 Rejects patented catchphrase of "Conspiracy theorists, stand up!" would be appropriate here.

Europcar are the only team in the tour with runflat-style tyres, all the others use tube tyres to reduce weight. Pierre Rolland rode through the tacks and broke when Evans punctured and the peleton slowed. I'm not accusing them of anything, these are just the facts, and they're quite convenient too...

Organisers have now asked the Police to investigate...some French yoof no doubt will be getting banged up if they find the kid.

AndreaModa · Post by **AndreaModa** » 17 Jul 2012, 21:10

Oh dear, and I thought the Schleck brothers could be trusted, obviously not! Frank tests positive for Xipamide.

Radioshack playing the innocent game at the moment, will be interesting to see how long that lasts, but Frank has withdrawn from the Tour. It's not like he was having a particularly good time of it anyway. Shame though, because he's one of the top riders from the past few years.

F1000X · Post by **F1000X** » 18 Jul 2012, 01:29

Why would he be using Xipamide? What good is that?

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 18 Jul 2012, 10:33

F1000X wrote:Why would he be using Xipamide? What good is that?

I don't believe he was "using" it at all. I think, if his B sample comes back positive, his claim of being poisoned is genuine.

First of all, let's just look at the circumstances from a performance point of view. Xipamide would be useful for a rider to clear his system of EPO or another performance enhancing drug. So, one could suggest he was doping to increase his performance. What doesn't make sense is, he has had great results in the past, but this season he has been nowhere. One of his poorest years in a long time is the one he tests positive for a banned substance, while testing clean for years when he was at his peak. Conversely, look at Ivan Basso and Alexandre Vinokourov. Their wins were because they were doping - and now they've been nicked, banned and subsequently returned and gone clean, they are nowhere near as fast as when they were winning by cheating. So my point here is, how can taking performance enhancers make a rider worse than when they were clean?

Now, my theory of an explanation for a positive test. Let's explore some of the background details leading up to this tour. Radioshack-Nissan are having some rider payment issues. The Schlecks, Cancellara and Fulgslang are taking their team to court over unpaid wages. Johan Bruyneel, the team boss, is not in France, instead in the US dealing with the fallout of the USADA doping investigation against Lance Armstrong at US Postal. Therefore the reputation of Radioshack in relation to doping isn't exactly brilliant.

If the team really is having financial difficulty, then a good place to start to reduce expenditure is offloading the Schlecks, who are the highest paid members of the team. Problem is, the terms of contract termination likely include a severance pay-off clause, as in most walks of life. However, what is also likely is a clause where riders can be retroactively fined wages and be sacked with no severance pay should they be banned for doping offences not related to the team. Therefore, they can get rid of Schleck for free if he fails a drug test. The fact it was Xipamide he was positive for, which is a "Special Substance" rather than a "Performance Enhancer" according to WADA rules, means the team does not look responsible, as they can prove all their medicines do not contain this substance, and they aren't accused of their entire team using performance enhancers as would probably happen if Schleck had been positive for a substance in this category.

Myrvold · Post by **Myrvold** » 18 Jul 2012, 13:35

Well, the Schlecks was a customer of Mr.Fuentes, and why they, and Contador didn't go down in the Operation Puerto, I have no idea. So, it wouldn't be a surprise.
And, I head from a source, that it should be more positive tests in this TdF. And, I'm just waiting for it...