French GP Possibility

Jeroen Krautmeir · Post by **Jeroen Krautmeir** » 21 Jun 2011, 22:44

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/92501

And (most likely) at Paul Ricard too!

AndreaModa · Post by **AndreaModa** » 21 Jun 2011, 22:50

I don't want to see them sharing with Spa, that would be a terrible shame to only have that fantastic circuit once every two years whilst heaps of horseshit like Valencia, Abu Dhabi and Bahrain get it handed to them on a plate!

Peter · Post by **Peter** » 21 Jun 2011, 23:12

AndreaModa wrote:I don't want to see them sharing with Spa, that would be a terrible shame to only have that fantastic circuit once every two years whilst heaps of horseshit like Valencia, Abu Dhabi and Bahrain get it handed to them on a plate!

Don't be mean. Valencia is horseshit, yes, but Abu Dhabi and Bahrain aren't total horseshit like it. Under 2011 regs, those 2 races could well be, or rather have been, exiting races.

Can we go back to Magny Cours, please?

Benetton · Post by **Benetton** » 21 Jun 2011, 23:19

Ugh, neither Paul Ricard nor Magny-Cours produced good races.

I don't think a French GP will happen until there is a French driver on the grid and thus more interest from the public. Jules Bianchi is their hope.

F1000X · Post by **F1000X** » 22 Jun 2011, 01:23

Benetton wrote:Ugh, neither Paul Ricard nor Magny-Cours produced good races.

I agree about Magny-Cours, but did Paul Ricard really never produce a good F1 race?

I don't think a French GP will happen until there is a French driver on the grid and thus more interest from the public. Jules Bianchi is their hope.

Looks like it's gonna be a while.

Rocks with Salt · Post by **Rocks with Salt** » 22 Jun 2011, 03:57

I've always approached the race situation in France as I've approached the race situation in America: There simply isn't a "decent" enough existing track that will please fans and produce good racing without resorting to building a new one. As much as I admire the fluidity of Paul Ricard, it only seems suitable as a high-performance testing facility, not a racetrack. Besides, isn't there an issue with a lack of grandstands?

Paul Hayes · Post by **Paul Hayes** » 22 Jun 2011, 07:27

Benetton wrote:Ugh, neither Paul Ricard nor Magny-Cours produced good races.

I don't think a French GP will happen until there is a French driver on the grid and thus more interest from the public. Jules Bianchi is their hope.

It's a bit chicken-and-egg isn't it? It needs a French driver, team or race to get the whole thing kicked off again, but everyone thinks you can't have the other two without the other one first...

Post by **mario** » 22 Jun 2011, 08:00

Benetton wrote:Ugh, neither Paul Ricard nor Magny-Cours produced good races.

I don't think a French GP will happen until there is a French driver on the grid and thus more interest from the public. Jules Bianchi is their hope.

Take it for what it is worth, but when Joe Saward picked up on this story, he added that there are a few figures within the French motorsport world who have been pushing Boullier to sack Heidfeld and promote Grosjean from the test driver to main driver role.
After all, having a French driver actively competing would increase interest in the sport, as you say - and, given that Heidfeld does not have any personal sponsorship, but Grosjean would probably be sponsored by one of France's many state owned corporations (and Renault are a little tight on funding, it seems - at the very least, they have a budget deficit hanging over them from last year).

AndreaModa wrote:I don't want to see them sharing with Spa, that would be a terrible shame to only have that fantastic circuit once every two years whilst heaps of horseshit like Valencia, Abu Dhabi and Bahrain get it handed to them on a plate!

Unfortunately, Spa has been losing money hand over fist for a number of years now, and attendance figures are pretty static (in fact, I think they've actually fallen in the past few years), due to the relatively remote location of the circuit.
After all, the original track owner went bankrupt in 2005 because it couldn't afford the track and paddock upgrades it had promised, and the government had to step in to fund the upgrades. It'd be a real shame, but on the other hand, Spa simply cannot afford to run at a loss for much longer, as, sooner or later, the government is simply going to refuse to pick up the bill.

As others have pointed out, though, for a nation that is supposedly integral to motorsport, there aren't that many good circuits in France. Mangy Cours, asides from the issue of little passing, was long criticized for terrible transport access that made it awkward for the teams and the public to get there, and a lack of supporting infrastructure in general.
Paul Ricard, meanwhile, has the problem that, at the moment, it is ill suited to holding a race since the current seating is minimal (there are a couple of small grand stands because the Le Mans Series used to use that venue), and overall the facilities are pretty stripped down. After all, having been converted to an advanced test track, there has been no need for a paddock upgrade in recent years, and you have to wonder how long it would take to bring it up to scratch.

That said, at the moment a lot of talk revolves around the proposed street venue in the area around Disneyland Paris - although, frankly, that has been going on for years and has always seemed like a load of hot air...

whatisdeletrazdoing · Post by **whatisdeletrazdoing** » 22 Jun 2011, 08:41

Rocks with Salt wrote:I've always approached the race situation in France as I've approached the race situation in America: There simply isn't a "decent" enough existing track that will please fans and produce good racing without resorting to building a new one.

Watkins Glen, Road America, and Laguna Seca are all great tracks. There is just one problem; they weren't designed by Herman Tilke

P_Friesacher · Post by **P_Friesacher** » 22 Jun 2011, 09:29

whatisdeletrazdoing wrote:Watkins Glen, Road America, and Laguna Seca are all great tracks. There is just one problem; they weren't designed by Herman Tilke

Much as I love these tracks (and I really do), there is another problem: All of them are far off from being suited for F1, especially where runoff is concerned, and would have to be renovated extensively. And in some of these cases that would mean having entire sections of these tracks rebuilt, probably by none other than Mr. Tilke, which, even though I believe Tilke is not quite as bad as everyone here makes him out to be, would clearly ruin these tracks forever.

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 22 Jun 2011, 09:39

mario wrote:
Benetton wrote:Ugh, neither Paul Ricard nor Magny-Cours produced good races.

I don't think a French GP will happen until there is a French driver on the grid and thus more interest from the public. Jules Bianchi is their hope.

Take it for what it is worth, but when Joe Saward picked up on this story, he added that there are a few figures within the French motorsport world who have been pushing Boullier to sack Heidfeld and promote Grosjean from the test driver to main driver role.
After all, having a French driver actively competing would increase interest in the sport, as you say - and, given that Heidfeld does not have any personal sponsorship, but Grosjean would probably be sponsored by one of France's many state owned corporations (and Renault are a little tight on funding, it seems - at the very least, they have a budget deficit hanging over them from last year).

The same Joe Saward said yesterday that an effort to bring Charles Pic to F1 is ongoing. Ahead of Jules Bianchi even. Given both drivers expectations for this year GP2, I say Charles Pic is performing much better than Bianchi. The current standings is a proof of this. But nevertheless this is mostly because Charles Pic is of good families. This backing should result in something, clearly. I would like to see a bigger French involvement in F1 given their historical record (and some hysterical efforts too!) and because it is another country. That is always good in F1. If we have a couple of drivers, perhaps a serious French team (the Bahar Renault team only has Renault in its name) then it is possible to construct a decent circuit, being Paris the most preferred location, and bring back F1 to France. It can happen.

eytl · Post by **eytl** » 22 Jun 2011, 12:22

Geez, with so many places hankering for races, at this rate we could be on our way to a WRC-style rotation system.

I see Hong Kong is thinking about a Grand Prix as well, after seeing the success of Singapore, and in the wake of Jaime Alguersuari's Red Bull demo run there recently. I'm salivating at the thought of a GP in my birthplace.

My initial reaction is to wonder whether a rotation system, either with countries rotating races on a two-year cycle, or with tracks within a country (like Hockenheim/Nurburgring) rotating races, be such a bad thing? Most races are losing money, aren't they? Would they mind only hosting once every two years? Would that mean higher attendances when it is held, because the local fans know it's only coming around once every two years? Would a country suffer drastically from under-exposure simply because they're holding a GP once every two years rather than annually? If you have two countries sharing the contractual fee with Bernie, they each only pay half and Bernie still gets full value, so it's a win-win - or is that too simplistic? Actually all this probably is too simplistic a view, but it's food for thought ...

IMHO I think it's a good thing for the calendar to change from year to year - increases the challenge for all involved.

AdrianSutil · Post by **AdrianSutil** » 22 Jun 2011, 12:49

whatisdeletrazdoing wrote:
Rocks with Salt wrote:I've always approached the race situation in France as I've approached the race situation in America: There simply isn't a "decent" enough existing track that will please fans and produce good racing without resorting to building a new one.

Watkins Glen, Road America, and Laguna Seca are all great tracks. There is just one problem; they weren't designed by Herman Tilke

I could never see an F1 race at Laguna Seca. It's basically a street circuit with very small run off areas. And could F1 cars handle the famous corkscrew?

Jeroen Krautmeir · Post by **Jeroen Krautmeir** » 22 Jun 2011, 12:53

AdrianSutil wrote:
whatisdeletrazdoing wrote:
Rocks with Salt wrote:I've always approached the race situation in France as I've approached the race situation in America: There simply isn't a "decent" enough existing track that will please fans and produce good racing without resorting to building a new one.

Watkins Glen, Road America, and Laguna Seca are all great tracks. There is just one problem; they weren't designed by Herman Tilke

I could never see an F1 race at Laguna Seca. It's basically a street circuit with very small run off areas. And could F1 cars handle the famous corkscrew?

Ricardo Zonta would say so, but I'm not entirely sure how fast he entered the corner, especially considering Bourdais in the Panoz shattered that record the next year.

Peter · Post by **Peter** » 23 Jun 2011, 00:44

Jeroen Krautmeir wrote:
AdrianSutil wrote:
whatisdeletrazdoing wrote:Watkins Glen, Road America, and Laguna Seca are all great tracks. There is just one problem; they weren't designed by Herman Tilke

I could never see an F1 race at Laguna Seca. It's basically a street circuit with very small run off areas. And could F1 cars handle the famous corkscrew?

Ricardo Zonta would say so, but I'm not entirely sure how fast he entered the corner, especially considering Bourdais in the Panoz shattered that record the next year.

That record doesn't stand anymore? Hmm... Perhaps it is because of the fact that a champ car has considerably more HP than an F1 car, and Laguna Seca isn't a very aerodynamic-reliant track. Plus, Zonta may have been running Bridgestone Demo tyres. And he only did 1 lap thirdly.

Benetton · Post by **Benetton** » 23 Jun 2011, 03:29

eytl wrote:Geez, with so many places hankering for races, at this rate we could be on our way to a WRC-style rotation system.

I see Hong Kong is thinking about a Grand Prix as well, after seeing the success of Singapore, and in the wake of Jaime Alguersuari's Red Bull demo run there recently. I'm salivating at the thought of a GP in my birthplace.

My initial reaction is to wonder whether a rotation system, either with countries rotating races on a two-year cycle, or with tracks within a country (like Hockenheim/Nurburgring) rotating races, be such a bad thing? Most races are losing money, aren't they? Would they mind only hosting once every two years? Would that mean higher attendances when it is held, because the local fans know it's only coming around once every two years? Would a country suffer drastically from under-exposure simply because they're holding a GP once every two years rather than annually? If you have two countries sharing the contractual fee with Bernie, they each only pay half and Bernie still gets full value, so it's a win-win - or is that too simplistic? Actually all this probably is too simplistic a view, but it's food for thought ...

IMHO I think it's a good thing for the calendar to change from year to year - increases the challenge for all involved.

It certainly sounds like a good idea on paper but it has to be implemented really carefully if they start to go that way.

I really dislike how they do the WRC rotating. It's confusing because there is no patter or balance how they do it (amount of gravel versus tarmac events etc). Plus they also rotate events that want to organize yearly, which as a Finn I think it's stupid because we host the best rally in the world. So far though we have avoided a year where Finland wouldn't have been on the calendar.

But back to F1. I think that Bernie should ask the organizers who want to be rotated and who doesn't. And BE should also keep a balance of classic circuits on the calendar.

Shizuka · Post by **Shizuka** » 23 Jun 2011, 06:47

Benetton wrote:Ugh, neither Paul Ricard nor Magny-Cours produced good races.

Paul Ricard: Oh-what-would-have-been of Leyton House with Ivan Capelli in 1990... just for THAT I say that was a good race.

Mister Fungus · Post by **Mister Fungus** » 23 Jun 2011, 10:23

Circuit de la Sarthe with original Mulsanne straight + DRS = 400km/h???

TBH though I don't really miss the French GP, Monaco is sorta kinda France basically.

nome66 · Post by **nome66** » 23 Jun 2011, 18:21

who knows this french dude's email adress?

Post by **mario** » 23 Jun 2011, 18:49

nome66 wrote:
who knows this french dude's email adress?

It might be worth trying here, on the "Contacts" page of the Paul Ricard circuit: http://www.circuitpaulricard.com/contact_us.php

Mister Fungus wrote:Circuit de la Sarthe with original Mulsanne straight + DRS = 400km/h???

TBH though I don't really miss the French GP, Monaco is sorta kinda France basically.

I doubt that would be possible with the current cars that they are using, even with DRS enabled.

Now, the BAR 007 model specially adapted to set a top speed record did manage to exceed 400kph, but that had the advantage of a modified engine (designed to run at maximum revs for several seconds - remember, the engines are more optimised for mid range acceleration, not top end power), substantially more power (about 200bhp, possibly more if it was a derivative of the "Suzuka Special"), and the rear wing had been replaced with a vertical tail fin.
I know that the current cars are probably more aerodynamically efficient than the BAR 007 was, but the high coefficient of drag of an open wheeled car, and the substantial loss in power, means that the cars would probably not go much beyond what they have achieved at Monza in the past (340kph). The long time spent on full throttle, even with the current layout of the circuit, would be a nightmare for the engine and transmission; besides, not only would the ACO never agree to seeing their premier event (the Le Mans 24 Hours) being upstaged by an F1 race, the venue itself would never be given a Grade 1 licence (McNish's crash this year, when he came incredibly close to crashing into a crowd of marshalls, photographers and a flimsy looking catch fence, shows why).

Now, to be honest, given the current venues eligible for a Grade 1 licence (Mangy Cours and Paul Ricard), it's not a great choice for the ready made venues, with Mangy Cours long standing poor infrastructure and Paul Ricard's current lack of grandstands and paddock facilities (and, of course, the potential conflict of interest due to Bernie having a stake in the ownership of the circuit). As for the proposed street tracks, well, a venue on the outskirts of Paris would probably address the access issues and has the potential for far bigger audiences - although I still have my reservations over whether it would really happen.

Rocks with Salt · Post by **Rocks with Salt** » 23 Jun 2011, 19:33

mario wrote:Now, to be honest, given the current venues eligible for a Grade 1 licence (Mangy Cours and Paul Ricard), it's not a great choice for the ready made venues, with Mangy Cours long standing poor infrastructure and Paul Ricard's current lack of grandstands and paddock facilities (and, of course, the potential conflict of interest due to Bernie having a stake in the ownership of the circuit). As for the proposed street tracks, well, a venue on the outskirts of Paris would probably address the access issues and has the potential for far bigger audiences - although I still have my reservations over whether it would really happen.

I assume that since Paul Ricard is meant to be a testing facility, it can have a lot of leeway in terms of adjustments necessary for an F1 race; besides, I thought the paddock facilities were up to snuff anyway. And if Bernie were so inclined, why couldn't he use his stake in the track to nudge the owners toward F1 again?

nome66 · Post by **nome66** » 23 Jun 2011, 20:00

mario wrote:
nome66 wrote:
who knows this french dude's email adress?

It might be worth trying here, on the "Contacts" page of the Paul Ricard circuit: http://www.circuitpaulricard.com/contact_us.php

i was sort of joking but thanks!

F1000X · Post by **F1000X** » 23 Jun 2011, 21:00

Looks good to me. Two DRS zones, and if use the old profile for Signes corner, you would see some EPIC passes around the outside on the way down to Beausset. Even with the old profile, there would be great passes going into the tighter Singes.

nome66 · Post by **nome66** » 23 Jun 2011, 21:29

i guess i actually will send it to them then.... now off to learn french...

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 24 Jun 2011, 09:51

I would love to see a Disneyland Grand Prix. Plenty of hotels and car parking, Eurostar and RER station on site, lots of restaurants. The track may be a bit Mickey Mouse, though....

Jeroen Krautmeir · Post by **Jeroen Krautmeir** » 24 Jun 2011, 10:36

A Disneyland race would be reminiscent of the inaugural race of the farce that was IRL.

Shall we start plotting designs for the French Disneyland GP?

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 24 Jun 2011, 11:17

Jeroen Krautmeir wrote:A Disneyland race would be reminiscent of the inaugural race of the farce that was IRL.

Shall we start plotting designs for the French Disneyland GP?

Here we go:

Option one: reminds me of the smile in

Option two: Typical GP track length

Myrvold · Post by **Myrvold** » 25 Jun 2011, 04:26

Mario, regarding top speed in F1. Didn't Coulthard get 352 (or was it even 372?) in Hockenheim in 98 or 99?

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 25 Jun 2011, 05:36

Myrvold wrote:Mario, regarding top speed in F1. Didn't Coulthard get 352 (or was it even 372?) in Hockenheim in 98 or 99?

I think Antonio Pizzonia reached 370 at Monza during the V10 era.

Post by **mario** » 25 Jun 2011, 08:24

Wizzie wrote:
Myrvold wrote:Mario, regarding top speed in F1. Didn't Coulthard get 352 (or was it even 372?) in Hockenheim in 98 or 99?

I think Antonio Pizzonia reached 370 at Monza during the V10 era.

From a quick search around, I think that the highest recorded speed was 372.6kph (231.5mph), set by Juan Pablo Montoya during the 2005 Italian GP. To give that figure some context, at the 2010 Italian GP, Hamilton recorded the highest top speed (during qualifying, anyway), of approximately 340kph.

Peter · Post by **Peter** » 25 Jun 2011, 15:25

A Disneyland GP? Oh God no. Imagine having the cast of one of their appalling shows doing the pit walk. Or worse, Miley Cyrus singing the anthems after the race. :shock:

Don't even put that idea into my head.

Will Buxton talked about this task force after qualifying, mentioning both tracks, and ending by saying "And we're all still wondering why oh why we can't just go back to Magny Cours." I agree. 2011 regulations would surely make it an interesting race, no?

Thunderer · Post by **Thunderer** » 25 Jun 2011, 20:58

Dijon, Dijon, Dijon..... I can keep dreaming... :roll:

nome66 · Post by **nome66** » 25 Jun 2011, 21:01

waay too short for normal humans.

Yannick · Post by **Yannick** » 25 Jun 2011, 22:25

They should use the full-length version of Paul Ricard, not the late 80s shortcut one. The full-length one is up to top safety standards now.

nome66 · Post by **nome66** » 25 Jun 2011, 23:33

slipstreaming would be the only thing that would be watched.

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 26 Jun 2011, 02:03

AndreaModa wrote:I don't want to see them sharing with Spa, that would be a terrible shame to only have that fantastic circuit once every two years whilst heaps of horseshit like Valencia, Abu Dhabi and Bahrain get it handed to them on a plate!

Most fans don't, but when Spa isn't hosting races, it's lurching from crisis to crisis. Having the race every second year might keep the Belgian Grand Prix going for a little bit longer than if it was held every year. And if that's what it takes, I'm happy to see it alternate with France - on the condition that the French Grand Prix is held at a circuit as epic as Spa.

Peter · Post by **Peter** » 26 Jun 2011, 06:19

Captain Hammer wrote:
AndreaModa wrote:I don't want to see them sharing with Spa, that would be a terrible shame to only have that fantastic circuit once every two years whilst heaps of horseshit like Valencia, Abu Dhabi and Bahrain get it handed to them on a plate!

Most fans don't, but when Spa isn't hosting races, it's lurching from crisis to crisis. Having the race every second year might keep the Belgian Grand Prix going for a little bit longer than if it was held every year. And if that's what it takes, I'm happy to see it alternate with France - on the condition that the French Grand Prix is held at a circuit as epic as Spa.

If only that were possible.

Post by **tommykl** » 26 Jun 2011, 08:27

Hell, why not bring Clermont-Ferrand back? :mrgreen:

FullMetalJack · Post by **FullMetalJack** » 26 Jun 2011, 11:14

Peter wrote:A Disneyland GP? Oh God no. Imagine having the cast of one of their appalling shows doing the pit walk. Or worse, Miley Cyrus singing the anthems after the race.

I hate her just for butchering Smells like teen spirit. Imagine having the shortest drivers (Massa and Heidfeld), and not allowing them on the track. You must be at least this tall to take part in this race.

F1000X · Post by **F1000X** » 26 Jun 2011, 16:44

Yannick wrote:They should use the full-length version of Paul Ricard, not the late 80s shortcut one. The full-length one is up to top safety standards now.

If the organizers and the FIA are willing to, I agree. Here is a small modification to the track.