Which team(s) to go?

kowalski · Post by **kowalski** » 15 Sep 2009, 12:59

With Lotus being given a spot I would imagine it's pretty clear that at least 1 team won't be making it onto the grid next season...

So, does Max know something? Renault or Toyota on their way?

- Or, one of the new teams aren't going to make it?

Enforcer · Post by **Enforcer** » 15 Sep 2009, 13:04

All very cloak and dagger isn't it?

"Lotus" admitted to the grid. Sauber given "first reserve" status, then comfirming a buyer literally 2 hours later. FIA talking about 14 teams. Ferrari talking about Schumacher being "nearly fit", creating rumours that they want to run a third car for him and Fisi next season (which I personally don't believe). That Sauber have been bought suggests that they will be on the grid, either as one of 14, or one 13 manufacturers.

Hard to tell what's going on.

eytl · Post by **eytl** » 15 Sep 2009, 13:11

Yeah ... in a season which has already seen lie-gate, diffuser-gate, Formula Elaborate Bluff, Massa's injury and the Schumacher comeback saga, one manufacturer pull out, another manufacturer seemingly being driven out, three new teams announced, now a fourth including the return of one of the greatest names in the sport, and possibly a fifth ... far out ...

Obvious candidate is for Renault to go.

Jordan192 · Post by **Jordan192** » 15 Sep 2009, 13:17

It may seem obvious, but they have to be prepared for Renault not only losing manufacturer status, but ceasing to be. Most generally felt that if Renault pulled the plug Briatore would be able to keep the team going, but with the Singapore investigation clearly looking to nail Flavio, That scenario seems unlikely now.

There's also always the possibilty of Manor, USF1, Campos or Lotus not finding enough money to make it happen

Toyota at least, do seem have managed (incredibly) to dodge the axe after yet another mediocre year.

Phoenix · Post by **Phoenix** » 15 Sep 2009, 16:36

Well, Renault will lose its ING sponsorship and probably also Alonso, and with mediocre results and warfares with the FIA and the Piquets, it's probable that the main manufacturer will close its F1 operation. So, there will be 26 cars on the grid, as planned initially.

DonTirri · Post by **DonTirri** » 15 Sep 2009, 16:49

Like i mentioned in another thread... what about Toro Rosso?

I for one wouldn't be surprised if they left F1 after this season, as IIRC they are more or less forced to severe ties with Red Bull with the "No customer cars period" rule comin to full force

SuperAguri · Post by **SuperAguri** » 15 Sep 2009, 17:23

I really want all 14 teams to be in the 2010 season.

Renault will be cleared of all charges and Nelson Piquet will be sued for millions and banned from racing in any FIA organised event.

Toyota will stay in the spot but will sport a new and exciting line up of drivers.

Ferrari will not get Alonso but will keep the same old drivers.

Williams dump Toyota but get a nice new Renault Engine and a new driver.

Sauber will sport a new Mercedes engine and Nick Heidfeld will still not win a race but his new team mate will get a couple.

Brawn will get a new sponsor and their car will turn yellower.

Torro Roso will stay in but will be sold mid season to a consortium headed by a certain P Stoddard.

Team USF1 will dump the Cosworth and sign up the Toyota engine, to help Toyota push US sales.

Proper qualifying will come back and in a few tracks there will be DNQ posted next to a drivers name again.

shinji · Post by **shinji** » 15 Sep 2009, 17:26

SuperAguri wrote:Proper qualifying will come back and in a few tracks there will be DNQ posted next to a drivers name again.

What do you mean "proper qualifying"? If you mean pre-qualifying fair enough, but the current system is a lot better than the hour long nothingness we had in the past.

Jordan192 · Post by **Jordan192** » 15 Sep 2009, 17:29

shinji wrote:
SuperAguri wrote:Proper qualifying will come back and in a few tracks there will be DNQ posted next to a drivers name again.

What do you mean "proper qualifying"? If you mean pre-qualifying fair enough, but the current system is a lot better than the hour long nothingness we had in the past.

I think he means qualifying in the sense of "Have I Qualfied?" as opposed to "Where have I Qualified?"

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 15 Sep 2009, 18:57

SuperAguri wrote:Sauber will sport a new Mercedes engine and Nick Heidfeld will still not win a race but his new team mate will get a couple.

Team USF1 will dump the Cosworth and sign up the Toyota engine, to help Toyota push US sales.

Not possible. Max would tell them to take a hike while counting the fresh dollar bills handed to him by Cosworth.

Many Blue Flags · Post by **Many Blue Flags** » 15 Sep 2009, 19:55

Renault will go but the team will probably stay in as something like Briatore F1, USF1 won't make the grid.

watka · Post by **watka** » 15 Sep 2009, 20:56

There should be 13 teams, with the bottom team each year relegated to GP2. Toro Rosso can be in GP2 next season and get their young drivers from there, not waste their time trundling round at the back of the grid as Red Bull's second team.

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 16 Sep 2009, 00:58

Given the FIA's statements about wanting to open up a fourteenth spot, I don't think any will be going.

bigslydoc · Post by **bigslydoc** » 16 Sep 2009, 02:46

I must admit that I'm getting a little worried about the engine situation now. By that I mean the number of suppliers left in F1. We have lost Honda and BMW. Renault and Toyota might go. That leaves only Mercedes and Ferrari with the returning Cosworth supplying engines to 13-14 teams. That isn't a healthy market.

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 16 Sep 2009, 03:12

Why do you think the FIA were pushing to have Cosworth in there as an independent supplier?

It's to stop the manufacturers cornering the market.

Cynon · Post by **Cynon** » 16 Sep 2009, 04:19

USF1 will make the grid. Campos I'm not sure about since there's been so little from them -- we were supposed to get a driver announcement at Valencia -- didn't happen. I'd actually like to see USF1 badge the Cosworth as a Ford to increase US identity.

The Renault name will be gone and Toyota will pull the plug in December and will leave 26 cars on the grid and no Toyota engine either. The Renault team could be gone from the grid as well.

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 16 Sep 2009, 05:11

Cynon wrote:Campos I'm not sure about since there's been so little from them -- we were supposed to get a driver announcement at Valencia -- didn't happen.

It was expected that Pedro de la Rosa would join Campos, and the annoucement would be made in Valencia. It didn't happen because by then it was annouced that BMW Sauber would withdraw and Epsilon Euskadi were tipped as a replacement. Apparently Pedro de la Rosa didn't want to commit to Campos because he wanted to see if Epsilon made it. Now that they haven't, he can join Campos ... if Campos will take him.

Jordan192 · Post by **Jordan192** » 16 Sep 2009, 05:33

Cynon wrote:I'd actually like to see USF1 badge the Cosworth as a Ford to increase US identity.

Cosworth and Ford aren't affiliated any more - they were sold on at the same time as the Jaguar F1 team.

thehemogoblin · Post by **thehemogoblin** » 16 Sep 2009, 06:34

There's no reason why teams cannot rebadge the ex-BMW, ex-Honda, or another manufacturer's engine. They're still in the middle of the development freeze anyway, so there would be no loss of development that a rebadged engine would normally involve.

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 16 Sep 2009, 07:35

thehemogoblin wrote:There's no reason why teams cannot rebadge the ex-BMW, ex-Honda, or another manufacturer's engine. They're still in the middle of the development freeze anyway, so there would be no loss of development that a rebadged engine would normally involve.

Indeed, that could make a lot of sense, if the freeze isn't lifted.

TeamTipper · Post by **TeamTipper** » 16 Sep 2009, 09:25

As the Engine Freeze is on this should be the engines if they pull out:

Honda=Mugen Honda
BMW=Metroan(sorry wrong spelling arrows and brabham used those rebradge BMW turbos)
Renault=Supertec Mechanic
Toyota= Maybe Judd

DonTirri · Post by **DonTirri** » 16 Sep 2009, 09:43

TeamTipper wrote:As the Engine Freeze is on this should be the engines if they pull out:

BMW=Metroan(sorry wrong spelling arrows and brabham used those rebradge BMW turbos)
Renault=Supertec Mechanic

Megatron
Mechachrome

jackanderton · Post by **jackanderton** » 16 Sep 2009, 10:36

My predictions at this current time (not necessarily what I'll be thinking next week, basically)

McLaren
Ferrari
Brawn
Red Bull
Renault
Toyota
Williams
Force India
Toro Rosso
Manor
Campos
USF1
BMW Sauber

Will Pull Out
Won't make it onto the grid or will fail midseason
Will 'successfully' enter next year

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 16 Sep 2009, 10:45

You kinda forgot the "Lotus" team jack

Anyways I hope that all 14 teams will make it to the grid next season but I can't see the forementioned Lotus team make the grid without a partnership with Lola as discussed elsewhere on the forum.

It'll also be interesting to see how the post BMW Sauber team turn out with the buyout

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 16 Sep 2009, 17:48

My Predictions

Brawn GP - Staying
Red Bull - Staying
Ferrari - Staying
McLaren - Staying
Williams - Staying
Toyota - Gone after 2010
Renault - Gone by end of 2009
Force India - Staying
Scuderia Toro Rosso - New owner buys out team for 2011 season.
Campos - Gone after 2010
USF1 - Gone after 2011
Lotus - Don't make the 2010 grid.
BMW Sauber - Collapses mid-2010, Andrea Moda style...

Waris · Post by **Waris** » 16 Sep 2009, 18:06

kostas22 wrote:My Predictions

Brawn GP - Staying
Red Bull - Staying
Ferrari - Staying
McLaren - Staying
Williams - Staying
Toyota - Gone after 2010
Renault - Gone by end of 2009
Force India - Staying
Scuderia Toro Rosso - New owner buys out team for 2011 season.
Campos - Gone after 2010
USF1 - Gone after 2011
Lotus - Don't make the 2010 grid.
BMW Sauber - Collapses mid-2010, Andrea Moda style...

That's very pessimistic.
I would say everyone is there to stay except Renault, and Toyota might or might not pull out depending on their results. (Well, that's what they said this year too...)

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 16 Sep 2009, 19:47

Crap. Forgot a team!

Manor - Staying!

thehemogoblin · Post by **thehemogoblin** » 16 Sep 2009, 23:11

Lotus and Sauber are going to go away, I'd bet, and one of Toyota or Renault

Winterspring · Post by **Winterspring** » 18 Sep 2009, 09:56

I really hope Toyota does stay because I'm been supporting them from the get go but I honestly think that Renault will quit but I have a feeling that they will still be an engine supplier.

shinji · Post by **shinji** » 18 Sep 2009, 20:38

Winterspring wrote:I really hope Toyota does stay because I'm been supporting them from the get go

May I ask why?

Warren Hughes · Post by **Warren Hughes** » 18 Sep 2009, 21:18

shinji wrote:
Winterspring wrote:I really hope Toyota does stay because I'm been supporting them from the get go

May I ask why?

I suppose somebody has to

I would have never thought Toyota could arouse much passion among its supporters, to be fair. Does Winterspring prove me wrong, or is he/she the exception that proves the rule :?:

shinji · Post by **shinji** » 18 Sep 2009, 21:30

Warren Hughes wrote:
shinji wrote:
Winterspring wrote:I really hope Toyota does stay because I'm been supporting them from the get go

May I ask why?

I suppose somebody has to

I would have never thought Toyota could arouse much passion among its supporters, to be fair. Does Winterspring prove me wrong, or is he/she the exception that proves the rule

Yes, I really want to know how someone could be a Toyota fan. Hopefully winterspring won't be a six post wonder.

Winterspring · Post by **Winterspring** » 19 Sep 2009, 01:31

Well I don't know how but I guess I liked them. Even though they have been pretty midfield at best but hopefully they do continue and it is she just to clarify.

SuperAguri · Post by **SuperAguri** » 19 Sep 2009, 06:30

Well Toyota do make some nice cars, pity they spoil it by not having a consistant F1 engineering program and employing drivers past their best before date. Honda at least had the right idea, get someone who is a big name and has won championships to lead them, pity they stuffed that up by quitting the sport just as Brawn win big....

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 19 Sep 2009, 09:54

Toyota's problem - and for that matter, Honda's - is that they persist in a style of management by committee. In Ferrari, the buck stops with Luca di Montezemolo. At Brawn and Williams, it's Brawn and Williams who have the final say. Vijay Mallya does it for Force India, Martin Whitmarsh at McLaren. But Toyota are different because it's not one man who makes the decisions. It's a boardroom full of them. And when decisions are made by a group, compromise inevitably comes with it. And that does not gel well with Formula One, because it is a sport where compromising does just that: it compromises your ability to compete.

Toyota will not have regular success until they can get around that hurdle. Unfortunately, management by committee is very much a part of Japanese business culture for large organisations like Toyota.

jackanderton · Post by **jackanderton** » 19 Sep 2009, 10:59

That's a very interesting theory, I think there may be something to that.

To go back to the drivers, they obviously have a typically Toyota line-up at the moment, but I can still understand why they have who they have. Trulli is still a super qualifier and gives them some profile further up the grid, Glock tends to be a solid race performer. Plus both of them seem to quietly get on with their jobs without complaining a la Hamilton at the start of the year, or being a lazy disinterested knob like Kubica has been this year. But would they trade that in for someone with some explosive potential race pace? Clearly not, but perhaps they should consider it.

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