Argentina to return?

[Londoner]

A brand new circuit is currently under construction, which could see F1 return in 2014. And, it isn't a Tilkedrome, as the same company who built the Silverstone extension, Populous, are building this one.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2011/12/17/motor-racing-argentina-track-idUKL3E7NH01O20111217

[F1000X]

No circuit map.

[DemocalypseNow]

No circuit map.

Ta-da...

[Aerospeed]

Meh...

Looks like another Magny-Cours to me. Better than having another Tilkedrome, that's for sure.

Has anyone got an onboard lap already from youtube? (Well, if someone can have one from the Obvious knockoff Montreal that is Port Imperial Circuit already, why not this one?)

Also, we already have at least 20 races this year plus another five that could jump on the boat (or already is): Port Imperial, Paul Ricard, This circuit, St. Petersburg Russia and Mexico.

[AndreaModa]

Fairly interesting circuit but it would have been nice if they'd gone for something new and different from all the current tracks - maybe a bit of a speed bowl, or something similar like Monza so we'd have a bit of variety in the championship.

Either way I think it would be nice to see Argentina up on the calender again, plus it would slot in nicely with the planned US GPs, Canada, and Brazil, as well as the rumoured Mexico track that may come to fruition.

With the calender getting ever more congested, perhaps it could share with Brazil on a bi-yearly basis?

[DOSBoot]

I always welcome another grand prix on the F1 calander. But I think they could have done a better job on the design of the track. It reminds me too much of Bahrain.

[Aerospeed]

Fairly interesting circuit but it would have been nice if they'd gone for something new and different from all the current tracks - maybe a bit of a speed bowl, or something similar like Monza so we'd have a bit of variety in the championship.

Either way I think it would be nice to see Argentina up on the calender again, plus it would slot in nicely with the planned US GPs, Canada, and Brazil, as well as the rumoured Mexico track that may come to fruition.

With the calender getting ever more congested, perhaps it could share with Brazil on a bi-yearly basis?

Maybe with one of the american gp's instead (or alternatively, both american gp's alternate with each other)

[RealRacingRoots]

I would much prefer that they would upgrade the facilities to the Potrero de los Funes Circuit. It is a circuit that I like a lot, and It would be nice to see some international racing (not GT) go there.

I mean, look at the environment!

[Aerospeed]

I would much prefer that they would upgrade the facilities to the Potrero de los Funes Circuit. It is a circuit that I like a lot, and It would be nice to see some international racing (not GT) go there.

I mean, look at the environment!

THIS.

F1 needs to go there. NOW.

[Mister Fungus]

Captain Hammer's post about political situation in Argentina and how this track will never be on the F1 calendar in 3... 2... 1...

[RonDenisDeletraz]

I would much prefer that they would upgrade the facilities to the Potrero de los Funes Circuit. It is a circuit that I like a lot, and It would be nice to see some international racing (not GT) go there.

I mean, look at the environment!

THIS.

F1 needs to go there. NOW.

As awesome as this track looks it would probably have really crap racing

[AdrianSutil]

I would much prefer that they would upgrade the facilities to the Potrero de los Funes Circuit. It is a circuit that I like a lot, and It would be nice to see some international racing (not GT) go there.

I mean, look at the environment!

THIS.

F1 needs to go there. NOW.

Yeah it looks fantastic!!

[Captain Hammer]

Looks like another Magny-Cours to me. Better than having another Tilkedrome, that's for sure.

If Populous weren't listed as the circuit designer, I think most people wuold automatically assume it's a Tilke.

the Obvious knockoff Montreal that is Port Imperial Circuit

Montreal is almost completely flat. Port Imperial makes Spa look like Montreal. They might look similar in shape, but they are completely different.

Port Imperial, Paul Ricard, This circuit, St. Petersburg Russia and Mexico.

It's Sochi in Russia, not St. Petersburg.

And Paul Ricard would likely alternate with Spa the way Hockenheim alternates with the Nurburgring.

[nome66]

this new Argentina GP circuit is an f1 sized Kart track for sure.

[Captain Hammer]

I would much prefer that they would upgrade the facilities to the Potrero de los Funes Circuit. It is a circuit that I like a lot, and It would be nice to see some international racing (not GT) go there.

I mean, look at the environment!

THIS.

F1 needs to go there. NOW.

Yeah it looks fantastic!!

I hate to burst your bubble, boys - really, I do; I'm not a sadist - but it's not going to happen any time soon. Possibly ever. This is why:

1) The circuit barely qualifies for an FIA Grade-2 licence. The pit and paddock area is too small for Formula 1, but there is nowhere for the paddock to expand into short of reclaiming land from the lake - which would be a ridiculously expensive undertaking.
2) There is no immediate access to large areas of the circuit, including some of the high-speed sections. In the event of an accident, it would take time for medical crews and marshalls to access the site.
3) Only a few of the corners have any run-off. Those that do have run-off do not have enough for a Grade-1 licence.

But even if all of that could be solved and the circuit upgraded to meet Formula 1 standards, there is a much, much bigger problem - it's in the middle of nowhere. Which brings us to:

4) The nearest airport that can handle the arrival of Formula 1 is in Buenos Aires, some 750km away. The nearest airport that might be able to handle the arrival of Formula 1 is in Rosario, 500km away. There is a third airport in Mendoza, 250km away, that has enough space for an upgrade, but it would need to be a serious one. And upgrading regional airports is about the most expensive civil project that you could attempt. If it's only being upgraded to handle the arrival of Formula 1, the cost-benefit model is going to be ridiculous. No-one in their right minds would do it.

And although the teams drive from Barcelona to Monaco - 1000km - in a week, driving from Sao Paulo to San Luis is out of the question, because it's 3000km.

[lostpin]

Hm... and what is actually wrong with the old Buenos Aires Circuit? We definitely don't need another Tilkedrome...

[DanielPT]

The fact that is not designed by Tilke makes it very hard for F1 to go there. We all know that Bernie is allergic to circuits not designed or not destroyed by one Tilke's infamous revamps.

[TomWazzleshaw]

And the last configuration they used while they raced there wasn't that great to begin with.

[mario]

Looks like another Magny-Cours to me. Better than having another Tilkedrome, that's for sure.

If Populous weren't listed as the circuit designer, I think most people would automatically assume it's a Tilke.

When I first saw the proposed layout, I did think that it looked like it was one of Tilke's proposals - it does have a number of features that would not be out of place on one of his circuits (the first corner looks like a copy of Korea, for example).

The fact that is not designed by Tilke makes it very hard for F1 to go there. We all know that Bernie is allergic to circuits not designed or not destroyed by one Tilke's infamous revamps.

If he was offered enough cash, Bernie would probably try to go to most venues - it's more down to the fact that circuit design is a relative niche area in the construction industry so there are only a handful of companies that are interested in that market. Given that Tilke's company has generally been noted for delivering projects on time and to a consistent high standard, it's somewhat inevitable that he is considered as a default choice - and, as the above layout shows, there are ultimately only so many variables that you have to play with when you consider the restrictions the FIA has on the layouts of new circuits.

[eagleash]

The airport problem may not be as severe as indicated. As I understand it "Air Bernie" operates out of Biggin Hill which is hardly Heathrow. Does have fair sized runway though; could not handle 747s, but large transports with STOL not a problem.

[DOSBoot]

And the last configuration they used while they raced there wasn't that great to begin with.

I'd still go for that track again, rather than this new one that's planed out.

[Phoenix]

I hate to burst your bubble, boys - really, I do; I'm not a sadist - but it's not going to happen any time soon. Possibly ever. This is why:

1) The circuit barely qualifies for an FIA Grade-2 licence. The pit and paddock area is too small for Formula 1, but there is nowhere for the paddock to expand into short of reclaiming land from the lake - which would be a ridiculously expensive undertaking.
2) There is no immediate access to large areas of the circuit, including some of the high-speed sections. In the event of an accident, it would take time for medical crews and marshalls to access the site.
3) Only a few of the corners have any run-off. Those that do have run-off do not have enough for a Grade-1 licence.

But even if all of that could be solved and the circuit upgraded to meet Formula 1 standards, there is a much, much bigger problem - it's in the middle of nowhere. Which brings us to:

4) The nearest airport that can handle the arrival of Formula 1 is in Buenos Aires, some 750km away. The nearest airport that might be able to handle the arrival of Formula 1 is in Rosario, 500km away. There is a third airport in Mendoza, 250km away, that has enough space for an upgrade, but it would need to be a serious one. And upgrading regional airports is about the most expensive civil project that you could attempt. If it's only being upgraded to handle the arrival of Formula 1, the cost-benefit model is going to be ridiculous. No-one in their right minds would do it.

And although the teams drive from Barcelona to Monaco - 1000km - in a week, driving from Sao Paulo to San Luis is out of the question, because it's 3000km.

Is Enna-Pergusa a chance then, boys?

[RonDenisDeletraz]

Enna-Pergusa sucks
(locks himself in bomb shelter)

[Captain Hammer]

Hm... and what is actually wrong with the old Buenos Aires Circuit? We definitely don't need another Tilkedrome...

It's not in very good condition - the circuit is run-down. It's also in a neighbourhood with a bad reputation.

And the Velociudad Zarate is not a Tilkedrome. It's designed by Populous, who gave Silverstone their upgrade.

The airport problem may not be as severe as indicated. As I understand it "Air Bernie" operates out of Biggin Hill which is hardly Heathrow. Does have fair sized runway though; could not handle 747s, but large transports with STOL not a problem.

It's not a case of how long the runway is. It's a case of how much weight it can handle. When you're shipping twelve Formula 1 teams plus transporters, motorhomes and the like, it gets very heavy, very quickly. The nearest airport that could handle Formula 1 without needing an upgrade is in Rosario, 500km away. By comparison, Magny-Cours is 235km from Paris, and the teams hated driving there. The same thing would happen here.

When I first saw the proposed layout, I did think that it looked like it was one of Tilke's proposals - it does have a number of features that would not be out of place on one of his circuits (the first corner looks like a copy of Korea, for example).

I'd say most of that has to do with the way Populous was given a very small space to build on, but has tried to make the longest possible circuit to fit it. It is, after all, only 4.7km long, when the standard for new circuits is 5.5km.

[golic_2004]

I would much prefer that they would upgrade the facilities to the Potrero de los Funes Circuit. It is a circuit that I like a lot, and It would be nice to see some international racing (not GT) go there.

I mean, look at the environment!

THIS.

F1 needs to go there. NOW.

As beautiful as it looks, we have a better shot to see Ianina Zanazzi on the grid.

[Klon]

It is, after all, only 4.7km long, when the standard for new circuits is 5.5km.

Hereby I announce my full support to this track on its journey of recieving a F1 race.

[Popi_Larrauri]

Hm... and what is actually wrong with the old Buenos Aires Circuit? We definitely don't need another Tilkedrome...

It's not in very good condition - the circuit is run-down. It's also in a neighbourhood with a bad reputation.

Indeed. It's a shame, but the neighborhood where it's placed simply sucks for an international event of this glamour and magnitude. It doesn't help that the river where it rest has such a distasteful smell.

The airport problem may not be as severe as indicated. As I understand it "Air Bernie" operates out of Biggin Hill which is hardly Heathrow. Does have fair sized runway though; could not handle 747s, but large transports with STOL not a problem.

It's not a case of how long the runway is. It's a case of how much weight it can handle. When you're shipping twelve Formula 1 teams plus transporters, motorhomes and the like, it gets very heavy, very quickly. The nearest airport that could handle Formula 1 without needing an upgrade is in Rosario, 500km away. By comparison, Magny-Cours is 235km from Paris, and the teams hated driving there. The same thing would happen here.

I think Ciudad de Córdoba Airport should be closer, and, as far as I know, should have same facilities as Rosario, at least. And it's quite closer (I'll pass on the opinion about the condition of the roads there), but I could ask people I know who lives in Córdoba).

When it comes down to do 3.000 kms from Sao Paolo to San Luis, I acknowledge is preposterous. But from Bs. As. are 750 km (still an amount). Sadly, the comparison with Barcelona-Monaco may not apply: Road infrastructure cannot be compared, despite the fact that the road they should use is used heavily from transportation and it's secure (meaning, it's not Nepal), or despite that there's no need to cross chain of mountains. By the way, the whole Dakar Rally goes there (or thereabouts), and, aside from some technical differences, think the challenge it quite more complex than driving trucks to San Luis (and no one had serious complains about it).

Another solution could be to use Santiago de Chile's Airport, which as far as I know it's fine. And the mountain's chain there has a good passage to go directly to Mendoza. Twisty, but still no Nepal.

Still, the innate limitations of Potrero it's the killer thing here. I also find it almost impossible to upgrade that circuit to grade-a, or not viable from the economical point of view.

And about the "political distress" in Argentina: there's none. At least, not the distress needed to avoid the hosting of a F1-GP, by a big far margin. Mind you, OWS and indignados in Spain are supposing a worse scenario nowadays. Localized Strikes there and public demonstrations are common these days, but is rare that seriously eventuate into something. It's not the arab spring, nor Oakland port, nor London vandals, nor Syria, nor nothing close, even less in San Luis.

[Captain Hammer]

But from Bs. As. are 750 km (still an amount).

It's a question of whether or not the teams would be willing to make the journey. Like I said, they hated going from Paris to Magny-Cours, and the journey from Buenos Aires is three times longer.

Still, the innate limitations of Potrero it's the killer thing here. I also find it almost impossible to upgrade that circuit to grade-a, or not viable from the economical point of view.

It could possibly be done, but it would have to be built from the ground up, which is more expensive than simply upgrading the existing facilities. One solution would be to build an entirely new paddock opposite the existing one, though there are a few houses there, so it's not really an option unless the pits and paddock were built behind them. The second solution would be to move the pits and paddock to the infield at the northen end of the circuit, between the town and the lake; this would also relocate the start line. There is a creek that flows into the lake here, so it could potentially become expensive (the creek would have to be turned into a guided canal, and the paddock built over it. Pit exit would also have to be strategically-placed because of more houses on the inside of turn four. The third solution would be to move the pits and paddock to the opposite side of the lake, either between turns eight and nine (but the ground might be too silty for construction given its proximity to the lake), or on the outside of the circuit between turns ten and fourteen (but the terrain is hilly and there are houses). So it can be done, but it would be both extensive and expensive. As for the run-off, New Jersey's approval might mean Potrero does not need to change a thing. There is minimal run-off around the Port Imperial circuit, so Potrero could get away with what it has. And it wouldn't be too difficult to construct marshall posts around.

But none of this changes the fact that access is limited. Even if the teams are willing to make a three-day road trip from Buenos Aires or wherever (it would probably work best as the season finale), you've still got to get accomodation for everyone, and that's without thinking about the fans.

I still can't help shake the feeling that if Formula 1 goes to Potrero, a lot of people are going to be disappointed. I just don't think it would create very good racing.

And about the "political distress" in Argentina: there's none. At least, not the distress needed to avoid the hosting of a F1-GP, by a big far margin. Mind you, OWS and indignados in Spain are supposing a worse scenario nowadays. Localized Strikes there and public demonstrations are common these days, but is rare that seriously eventuate into something. It's not the arab spring, nor Oakland port, nor London vandals, nor Syria, nor nothing close, even less in San Luis.

There may not be political upheavals, but what is the political situation in Argentina actually like? I know nothing of Argentine politics, but I'm willing to bet that the circuit falls within an electoral seat controlled from San Luis. Who actually holds that seat in San Luis - the government or the opposition? Silverstone and Buddh are the only circuits on the calendar that do not get government support to fund the race, and with race sanctioning fees being so high, I can't imagine that the government in Buenos Aires would be willing to support a race at Potrero if the San Luis seat is held by a member of the opposition. I know I sure as hell wouldn't.

[TomWazzleshaw]

I think Ciudad de Córdoba Airport should be closer, and, as far as I know, should have same facilities as Rosario, at least. And it's quite closer (I'll pass on the opinion about the condition of the roads there), but I could ask people I know who lives in Córdoba).

Cordoba is the closest major airport to San Luis that can handle 747s with ease although there will be some weight restrictions on takeoff and it's still about 300km away. (Mendoza is closer at 230km but the runway's almost 1500ft shorter so weight restrictions will apply)

[dr-baker]

Hm... and what is actually wrong with the old Buenos Aires Circuit? We definitely don't need another Tilkedrome...

It's not in very good condition - the circuit is run-down. It's also in a neighbourhood with a bad reputation.

Indeed. It's a shame, but the neighborhood where it's placed simply sucks for an international event of this glamour and magnitude.

But one could say the same about Sao Paulo/Interlagos. I know that the track was there first, and that the favelas around the track there now is as a result of urban sprawl, but that doesn't stop F1 from returning there...

[Captain Hammer]

Because Formula 1 is already established there.

[Popi_Larrauri]

And about the "political distress" in Argentina: there's none. At least, not the distress needed to avoid the hosting of a F1-GP, by a big far margin. Mind you, OWS and indignados in Spain are supposing a worse scenario nowadays. Localized Strikes there and public demonstrations are common these days, but is rare that seriously eventuate into something. It's not the arab spring, nor Oakland port, nor London vandals, nor Syria, nor nothing close, even less in San Luis.

There may not be political upheavals, but what is the political situation in Argentina actually like? I know nothing of Argentine politics, but I'm willing to bet that the circuit falls within an electoral seat controlled from San Luis. Who actually holds that seat in San Luis - the government or the opposition? Silverstone and Buddh are the only circuits on the calendar that do not get government support to fund the race, and with race sanctioning fees being so high, I can't imagine that the government in Buenos Aires would be willing to support a race at Potrero if the San Luis seat is held by a member of the opposition. I know I sure as hell wouldn't.

Advisory: 2011 have been the year in which we realized that Japanese standards on atomic energy were overrated; have been the year in which the whole Islamic world raised against their own leaders without a religious slogan; the year in which I saw Kaddafi crying like a baby in a sewer tube; also the year in which US was about to default it's debt, and Euro was about to collapse. Even now I'm hearing that China would be heading to another bubble burst. Would I have bet a dollar against a big kick in my bollocks and I would be typing in a very smaller font right now.

...So, anything I'll tell you has, at most, 30 days of real value. Then... who knows...

Actually Argentina has no serious concerns about political distress. As I told, Spain, England and (no less) US had bigger problems on that front or are having them now, and it's dealing pretty well with the world class financial and economical crisis we have right now. It is not invulnerable (despite government claims), and the effectiveness of the amour will depend on how much it last the crisis in developed countries.

San Luis is governed by a candidate that stood as opposition. In fact, he got more or less 15 something %, alongside with 2nd to the rest (the winner got 51% on primary and 53% on presidential, and there were at least 8-9 candidates). Despite the fact that I also believe the government would not be interested in giving some frame to Rodriguez Saa family (actually, San Luis is some kind of political feud; use the word with care) I don't think that neccesarily means a GP would never be hosted there.

It's still hard to believe, tough. The actual government has a strong methodology dealing with someone who doesn't share or their beliefs or their side of the line. This is, most of the time, not to negotiate with anybody a dime. While this gives them some congruence (see Obama signing approval onto detaining US citizens without trial in US territory), they are being accused for being dictators diluted in three parts of water.

The reality might lie in between: They are harsh, but censorship is nonexistent and anybody can do more or less what they complain they cannot do.

Irony is, Galves is in Buenos Aires, which is also hosted by opposition (plain right winged, while gov. is center-left), so if it were about politics, is still hard.

Zárate is in Bs As, a national government stronghold in political terms, but who knows who will be heading it in 2015.

And, as you say, it's hard being Bernie wthout aligning politics with F1 drives, let alone F1 races.

[Popi_Larrauri]

I think Ciudad de Córdoba Airport should be closer, and, as far as I know, should have same facilities as Rosario, at least. And it's quite closer (I'll pass on the opinion about the condition of the roads there), but I could ask people I know who lives in Córdoba).

I might be talking on soft reality (read: watch me lie ) but roads from Cordoba to San Luis could be a bit twisty. Nothing too terrible, tough, but a F1 team truck or motor home can find it difficult. Aside from that Córdoba is a nice city, the province in general (alongside with Mendoza can be interesting in terms of tourism, in order to make the package works.

[tommykl]

Besides, non-violent political problems shouldn't be a problem when you want a race. If they were, Belgium would have been gone a very long time ago.

[Nessafox]

Besides, non-violent political problems shouldn't be a problem when you want a race. If they were, Belgium would have been gone a very long time ago.

Belgium doesn't have problems, other than mass absurdism.

[FMecha]

Besides, non-violent political problems shouldn't be a problem when you want a race. If they were, Belgium would have been gone a very long time ago.

Belgium doesn't have problems, other than mass absurdism.

What kind of abusrdism?

[DanielPT]

Besides, non-violent political problems shouldn't be a problem when you want a race. If they were, Belgium would have been gone a very long time ago.

Belgium doesn't have problems, other than mass absurdism.

What kind of abusrdism?

It's kind of mass hysteria but everyone has an absurd behaviour, like collectively running a country without government (which might not be that absurd, mind you...). Or, for instance, everyone in a city to adopt a small peeing statue as a symbol...

[Nessafox]

Belgium is the Andrea Moda of politics, i think i don't have to explain anything more.

[Popi_Larrauri]

It's kind of mass hysteria but everyone has an absurd behaviour, like collectively running a country without government (which might not be that absurd, mind you...). Or, for instance, everyone in a city to adopt a small peeing statue as a symbol...

In fact, after having 500~ days without a government, thing were going pretty fine. That's speaks volumes about a country's population... </provoke/> but also about anarchy...

[Popi_Larrauri]

Belgium is the Andrea Moda of politics, i think i don't have to explain anything more.

I think it resembles more to Osella. You don't know who is driving it, or why it's running, but it pretty runs for ten years without knowing how.