2012 Canadian Grand Prix Discussion Thread

[TomWazzleshaw]

I'd love to see someone come up with the stats for it, but I think it's because Vettel probably has the best pole-to-victory conversion rate on the grid, if not one of the best of all time. It's just one of his strengths - if he starts from pole, clear out at the start, build a gap and stay there, as if he's driven by confidence. Put him in a fight lower in the field and his confidence drops a few notches and he becomes a very good driver rather than a great one.

One Felipe Massa was always much more comfortable when he was leading away from pole as well. Make of it what you will

[RealRacingRoots]

A Vettel pole means the race result is more predictable than usual - I think that's what ruins it for viewers.

The main reason I thought the whole of 2011 sucked. You nailed it on the head eytl.

Although, don't bet against a early safety car tomorrow. The first few laps are always hectic in Canada, on the best of days.

[TomWazzleshaw]

Jean-Eric Vergne qualifys behind both Caterhams. Well done to the Caterham drivers, but what puzzles me is Vergnes apparent lack of pace. Ricciardo made it comfortably, while Jean Eric was two tenths of a second behind Petrov. Maybe he struggled to warm his tyres, after all the track temp dropped by 4 degrees prior to the session. This year's Toro Rosso doesn't appear to be as quick as it's predecessor, whether it's a case of rookie drivers, poor chassis or both I don't know, but all year they have been struggling to beat the Caterhams in qualifying

I think the STR7 has carried over the STR6 the lack of pace in qualifying, but having two rookie drivers doesn't help. But their race pace isn't that bad, and, after all, it's Vergne who's providing the Sunday highlights.

Nah. I think it's more to do with the simple fact that Vergne can't string a qualifying lap together if his life depended on it and Ricciardo's got a similar problem come race time.

[AndreaModa]

I banged my head against my laptop when Pastor spun at the final corner. He just needs to calm it down a tad and he'd get away without all these needless incidents. This may be a year which Williams look back on as an opportunity missed, much like 2009, if both Bruno and Pastor continue to find the wall with the ease they've been managing so far this season.

[Klon]

I'd love to see someone come up with the stats for it, but I think it's because Vettel probably has the best pole-to-victory conversion rate on the grid, if not one of the best of all time. It's just one of his strengths - if he starts from pole, clear out at the start, build a gap and stay there, as if he's driven by confidence. Put him in a fight lower in the field and his confidence drops a few notches and he becomes a very good driver rather than a great one.

I think I can help you with that and the results are not quite as you expected. As far as current drivers go (ignoring Pastor Maldonado and Nico Rosberg who obviously have a 100 % rate but shouldn't really count) he is only fourth with 56.7 %, trailing Michael Schumacher with 58.8 %, Fernando Alonso with 65.0 % and Jenson Button with 66.7 % (his lead is really no surprise given the fact that four of his six poles came during those two months in 2009 where Button was busy not being mediocre or just outright awful). On a historical perspective, I looked at the top 10 in total poles where Vettel is a joint fifth after today's qualifying. Now here, he's running in second, placing himself between Alain Prost in third with 54.5 % and the abovementioned Michael Schumacher. Other notes from these top 10 is yet another doubt on Senna's exaggerated legacy because he "only" makes 44.6 %, trailing his most prominent rival and Schumacher by around 10 per-cent. Also to note Piquet's rate being outright horrible with 21.7 %. Now Vettel's percentage might just as well rise significantly in the next years because we have to think of a number of poles which would have been wins if not for other forces interfering such as technical issues (Australia, Bahrain and South Korea in 2010 for example). I would be surprised if Seb could not push his ratio to 65-70 % until the end of his career.

[mario]

Jean-Eric Vergne qualifys behind both Caterhams. Well done to the Caterham drivers, but what puzzles me is Vergnes apparent lack of pace. Ricciardo made it comfortably, while Jean Eric was two tenths of a second behind Petrov. Maybe he struggled to warm his tyres, after all the track temp dropped by 4 degrees prior to the session. This year's Toro Rosso doesn't appear to be as quick as it's predecessor, whether it's a case of rookie drivers, poor chassis or both I don't know, but all year they have been struggling to beat the Caterhams in qualifying

I think the STR7 has carried over the STR6 the lack of pace in qualifying, but having two rookie drivers doesn't help. But their race pace isn't that bad, and, after all, it's Vergne who's providing the Sunday highlights.

Alguersuari and Buemi were definitely more competitive in qualifying trim than Vergne and Ricciardo currently are, as Buemi and Alguersuari had both made it into Q3 during the first six races of 2011 (and in China they both made it into Q3), although in the races themselves they only managed to outscore Vergne and Ricciardo by one point (the race pace of the STR6 and STR7 are probably closer in terms of relative competitiveness). Part of the problem seems to lie with the STR7 - they might still have fairly good straight line speed, but it isn't helping them work their way up the field - but it definitely hasn't helped that the team are having to deal with two rookie drivers.

[tristan1117]

I'm surprised by the degree of anti-Vettel reaction to what was a brilliant set of Q3 laps, when his only other pole this year has been in Bahrain and otherwise he has not been higher than 6th quickest in Q3. And part of that surprise is because I also started to feel this strange sense of anti-Vettel boredom and dread as quali rolled on and his pole looked more and more inevitable.

A Vettel pole means the race result is more predictable than usual - I think that's what ruins it for viewers.

Judging from the grandstands at the Casino hairpin during quali, the crowd didn't seem to be overly ecstatic either. There was some mild applause but no real shouting or celebration. I guess everyone is a bit "shell-shocked" from the usual 2011 order of things. On the race itself, the air temperature in Montreal is expected to be 27-28 Celsius which makes it one of the hottest Canadian GPs on record. The last time it was this hot, back in 2008, the track started to break up. Could we see more of the same thing?

[Pamphlet]

I'd love to see someone come up with the stats for it, but I think it's because Vettel probably has the best pole-to-victory conversion rate on the grid, if not one of the best of all time. It's just one of his strengths - if he starts from pole, clear out at the start, build a gap and stay there, as if he's driven by confidence. Put him in a fight lower in the field and his confidence drops a few notches and he becomes a very good driver rather than a great one.

One Felipe Massa was always much more comfortable when he was leading away from pole as well. Make of it what you will

Said Felipe Massa was much better before his crash than he is now, and even then he wasn't considered to be on the same tier as Alonso, Hamilton or Raikkonen. And remember, he was trashing the latter two in a piss poor car in 2009 before his crash (though he probably would've still lost to Lewis after Macca fixed their problems and started fighting for wins).

[DemocalypseNow]

I'd love to see someone come up with the stats for it, but I think it's because Vettel probably has the best pole-to-victory conversion rate on the grid, if not one of the best of all time. It's just one of his strengths - if he starts from pole, clear out at the start, build a gap and stay there, as if he's driven by confidence. Put him in a fight lower in the field and his confidence drops a few notches and he becomes a very good driver rather than a great one.

I don't buy this for a second. He finished 4th at Shanghai in his first part-season with STR, then won a race with them in his first full season. I would like to have seen any other 'very good' driver pull that off.

[RonDenisDeletraz]

Vettel on pole, meh.

Good too see DLR doing well.

[eytl]

I'd love to see someone come up with the stats for it, but I think it's because Vettel probably has the best pole-to-victory conversion rate on the grid, if not one of the best of all time. It's just one of his strengths - if he starts from pole, clear out at the start, build a gap and stay there, as if he's driven by confidence. Put him in a fight lower in the field and his confidence drops a few notches and he becomes a very good driver rather than a great one.

I don't buy this for a second. He finished 4th at Shanghai in his first part-season with STR, then won a race with them in his first full season. I would like to have seen any other 'very good' driver pull that off.

That Monza win was from pole. The 4th at Shanghai? Many drivers, both great, very good, and even the merely good, have managed to pull out a good points-scoring result in less-than-capable machinery. If anything I think you've actually proved my point! Although he has shown glimpses of more composure in the last 12 months or so when in traffic, and he has pulled off his share of fine moves or otherwise driven some terrific races whilst not leading from the front, I still remain unconvinced that he has managed to erase all the doubts created by some of his dreadful efforts when back in the pack in 2010. I remain of the view that the Vettel dominating out front is a better driver than the Vettel who's under pressure in a fight - one is great, the other is very good but not great. He's not the first - I'd suggest Damon Hill fell into the same category.

[Salamander]

I'd love to see someone come up with the stats for it, but I think it's because Vettel probably has the best pole-to-victory conversion rate on the grid, if not one of the best of all time. It's just one of his strengths - if he starts from pole, clear out at the start, build a gap and stay there, as if he's driven by confidence. Put him in a fight lower in the field and his confidence drops a few notches and he becomes a very good driver rather than a great one.

I don't buy this for a second. He finished 4th at Shanghai in his first part-season with STR, then won a race with them in his first full season. I would like to have seen any other 'very good' driver pull that off.

Said Shanghai race also involved Jenson Button finishing 5th. In that atrocious Honda. Also, his 2008 win with Toro Rosso was the result of dominating from pole, not fighting through the field.

I think I can help you with that and the results are not quite as you expected. As far as current drivers go (ignoring Pastor Maldonado and Nico Rosberg who obviously have a 100 % rate but shouldn't really count) he is only fourth with 56.7 %, trailing Michael Schumacher with 58.8 %, Fernando Alonso with 65.0 % and Jenson Button with 66.7 % (his lead is really no surprise given the fact that four of his six poles came during those two months in 2009 where Button was busy not being mediocre or just outright awful)

However, if you look at how many of their total wins came from pole, that tells a rather different, and I think more accurate, tale. Here's a full rundown on every driver with at least 8 wins, because why not.

1. Sebastian Vettel - 77.2% (17/22 (Also interesting to note, of the 5 races he didn't win from pole, he was 2nd on the grid for 4 of them))
2. Felipe Massa - 72.7% (8/11)
3. Ayrton Senna - 70.7% (29/41)
4. James Hunt - 70% (7/10)
5. Alberto Ascari - 69.2% (9/13)
6. Mario Andretti - 66.6% (8/12)
7. Juan Manuel Fangio - 62.5% (15/24)
8. Jim Clark - 60% (15/25)
9. Lewis Hamilton - 58.8% (10/17)
10. Nigel Mansell - 54.8% (17/31)
11. Mark Webber - 50% (4/8)
= Mika Hakkinen - 50% (10/20)
= Stirling Moss - 50% (8/16)
= Gerhard Berger - 50% (5/10)
= Jacky Ickx - 50% (4/8)
16. Fernando Alonso - 46.4% (13/28)
17. Jacques Villeneuve - 45.4% (5/11)
= Rubens Barrichello - 45.4% (5/11)
19. Michael Schumacher - 43.9% (40/91)
20. Jack Brabham - 42.8% (6/14)
21. Niki Lauda - 36% (9/25)
22. Alain Prost - 35.2% (18/51)
23. Kimi Raikkonen - 33.3% (6/18)
24. Damon Hill - 31.8% (7/22)
25. Jenson Button - 30.7% (4/13)
26. Ronnie Peterson - 30% (3/10)
27. Jackie Stewart - 29.6% (8/27)
28. Graham Hill - 28.5% (4/14)
= Emerson Fittipaldi - 28.5% (4/14)
30. Carlos Reutemann - 25% (3/12)
31. Nelson Piquet - 21.7% (5/23)
32. Jody Scheckter - 20% (2/10)
33. Alan Jones - 16.6% (2/12)
34. David Coulthard - 15.3% (2/13)
35. Denny Hulme - 0% (0/8)

[AdrianSutil]

Interesting to see Damon Hill at the early 30%. And DC won just two races from pole? Pretty impressive.

The way I'd look at that list is simple: How competitive and close the field was, especially the top 2-3 teams, if your percentage is low. In the early to mid 90s you had Williams, Benetton and Ferrari whilst McLaren replaced Benetton in late 90's. Early 00's and you had Williams, Ferrari and McLaren and a only a few years ago you had Red Bull join the top teams.

It just shows how dominant the car, not the driver, was in 2011 for Vettel to get that high percentage.

Surprised by Massa though.

[tommykl]

I'd love to see someone come up with the stats for it, but I think it's because Vettel probably has the best pole-to-victory conversion rate on the grid, if not one of the best of all time. It's just one of his strengths - if he starts from pole, clear out at the start, build a gap and stay there, as if he's driven by confidence. Put him in a fight lower in the field and his confidence drops a few notches and he becomes a very good driver rather than a great one.

I don't buy this for a second. He finished 4th at Shanghai in his first part-season with STR, then won a race with them in his first full season. I would like to have seen any other 'very good' driver pull that off.

Said Shanghai race also involved Jenson Button finishing 5th. In that atrocious Honda. Also, his 2008 win with Toro Rosso was the result of dominating from pole, not fighting through the field.

Don't forget his ROTY team mate Liuzzi finishing in sixth place.

[Salamander]

Interesting to see Damon Hill at the early 30%. And DC won just two races from pole? Pretty impressive.

I'll say, I actually recounted DC's tally a couple of times because I thought he had to have won from pole more than that, but no. And those wins were fairly early in his career - his first and fourth wins.

The way I'd look at that list is simple: How competitive and close the field was, especially the top 2-3 teams, if your percentage is low. In the early to mid 90s you had Williams, Benetton and Ferrari whilst McLaren replaced Benetton in late 90's. Early 00's and you had Williams, Ferrari and McLaren and a only a few years ago you had Red Bull join the top teams.

It just shows how dominant the car, not the driver, was in 2011 for Vettel to get that high percentage.

Surprised by Massa though.

True, the list is obviously skewed towards drivers who've had dominant cars - Mansell, Prost, and Schumacher all had fairly low wins from pole until 1992, 1993, and 2000, respectively. It does highlight some of the drivers known for putting the car on pole and controlling the race from there, though - Vettel as has been discussed is a master at this, as was Senna. Massa before his crash was well-known for it too, I recall him being criticised for it like Vettel is now. All 3 of his non-pole wins were sort of handed to him one way or another as well - Bahrain 2008 was his for the taking given that Kubica only took pole thanks to running low fuel, France fell into his lap after Raikkonen's car acted up, and Belgium had that ridiculous penalty.

James Hunt was perhaps the most surprising, though.

[AdrianSutil]

Yeah. James Hunt and in a way, Lewis Hamilton too. The only year McLaren have looked like being the best team straightaway is now, and we know how well McLaren used that ever-decreasing advantage

[mario]

Yeah. James Hunt and in a way, Lewis Hamilton too. The only year McLaren have looked like being the best team straightaway is now, and we know how well McLaren used that ever-decreasing advantage

They certainly have thrown away what advantage they had in the opening few races, which has now dwindled to nothing or even turned into a deficit in certain conditions (in warmer conditions, you would have to say that Red Bull seem to have a stronger package, as, arguably, do Lotus and Ferrari).

The incompetence of the team this season seems to be having a pretty corrosive effect on the confidence levels of both of their drivers - Button was incredibly frustrated after qualifying, bemoaning the fact that he has no idea why he is struggling so much in qualifying trim and wondering what is going wrong, whilst Hamilton is basically expecting to go backwards in the warmer conditions that are predicted for the race because both he and Button are struggling to keep the rear tyre temperatures under control in hotter conditions.

When you compare that to Alonso, who was talking about a possible race victory, or Massa, who was sounding very confident on the back of what has been his best grid position so far this year, let alone the cheery chatter that Vettel had with what he feels was a "vindication" for Red Bull for the changes that they have been forced to make to their car, the gloomy demeanour of the McLaren duo is quite marked despite the fact that they should have, on paper, a quite competitive car.

[GwilymJJames]

Five place grid-drop for Maldonado for a gearbox change, dropping him to 22nd, starting directly behind De la Rosa.

Check your brakes Pastor, I don't want you to bathplug up HRT's Race twice in a row.

[Pamphlet]

Surprised by Massa though.

Not that much of a surprise. Massa used to be a great qualifier, but was generally weaker than Raikkonen on pure race pace.

[pasta_maldonado]

I'd love to see someone come up with the stats for it, but I think it's because Vettel probably has the best pole-to-victory conversion rate on the grid, if not one of the best of all time. It's just one of his strengths - if he starts from pole, clear out at the start, build a gap and stay there, as if he's driven by confidence. Put him in a fight lower in the field and his confidence drops a few notches and he becomes a very good driver rather than a great one.

I don't buy this for a second. He finished 4th at Shanghai in his first part-season with STR, then won a race with them in his first full season. I would like to have seen any other 'very good' driver pull that off.

That Monza win was from pole. The 4th at Shanghai? Many drivers, both great, very good, and even the merely good, have managed to pull out a good points-scoring result in less-than-capable machinery. If anything I think you've actually proved my point! Although he has shown glimpses of more composure in the last 12 months or so when in traffic, and he has pulled off his share of fine moves or otherwise driven some terrific races whilst not leading from the front, I still remain unconvinced that he has managed to erase all the doubts created by some of his dreadful efforts when back in the pack in 2010. I remain of the view that the Vettel dominating out front is a better driver than the Vettel who's under pressure in a fight - one is great, the other is very good but not great. He's not the first - I'd suggest Damon Hill fell into the same category.

May I refer you to Christian Fittipaldi finishing fourth at Kyalami 1993. Not the best driver, certainly not the best car, yet still finished fourth.

[mario]

Five place grid-drop for Maldonado for a gearbox change, dropping him to 22nd, starting directly behind De la Rosa.

Check your brakes Pastor, I don't want you to bathplug up HRT's Race twice in a row.

I think that the bigger problem in Monaco was, as the old phrase goes, with the nut holding the wheel...

I'm not surprised that Williams have decided to do that though - given that Maldonado must have put a fairly sizeable lateral load through the transmission when he hit the wall in qualifying, plus he is already starting a long way down the grid, it makes more sense to change the gearbox than not. I do hope that he isn't quite so ragged this time around when going into Turn 1, especially since De La Rosa has been sounding very optimistic going into this race...

[Minardi Man]

Points for HRT, you heard it here first.

[Ben Gilbert]

That Monza win was from pole. The 4th at Shanghai? Many drivers, both great, very good, and even the merely good, have managed to pull out a good points-scoring result in less-than-capable machinery. If anything I think you've actually proved my point! Although he has shown glimpses of more composure in the last 12 months or so when in traffic, and he has pulled off his share of fine moves or otherwise driven some terrific races whilst not leading from the front, I still remain unconvinced that he has managed to erase all the doubts created by some of his dreadful efforts when back in the pack in 2010. I remain of the view that the Vettel dominating out front is a better driver than the Vettel who's under pressure in a fight - one is great, the other is very good but not great. He's not the first - I'd suggest Damon Hill fell into the same category.

May I refer you to Christian Fittipaldi finishing fourth at Kyalami 1993. Not the best driver, certainly not the best car, yet still finished fourth.

May I refer you to the fact that Christian finished fourth of five finishers, not fourth of seventeen finishers. And in terms of finishing ahead of people who started ahead, and were still going at the finish, Christian beat one driver, compared to Seb's nine.

[MyHamsterRacedAnOnyx]

What the odds of a parade of naked students conga-ing onto the track? Or a single nude protestor leaping out of some shrubbery?

[Shizuka]

Might not be able to open the IIDotR topic this time around, stupid timezone delays are problematic here.
I hope we won't see a boring race.

[F1000X]

Home from the rave, I call Massa to kiss the wall of champions. Massa or Michael, I'll hedge my bets. Here's to hoping Vettel drinks the Haterade courtesy one Mr. L Hamilton MBE.

[pasta_maldonado]

Here's to hoping Vettel crashes into the wall on lap 1

Fixed

[Shizuka]

Here's to hoping Vettel crashes into the wall on lap 1

Fixed

Quoting fixed - if that's actually going to happen, I'd be shocked.

[Londoner]

Ron Dennis being interviewed by Sky. Can anyone translate what he's saying from Ronspeak to English?

[pasta_maldonado]

Here's to hoping Vettel crashes into the wall on lap 1

Fixed

Quoting fixed - if that's actually going to happen, I'd be shocked.

didn't realise the missing '/'. Anyway, it will be a massive shock if that happens, but we can't denty that is what 50-60% of the people on the forums want to happen. Not because I want to wish him harm, it's just a race with Vettel on pole usually proves to be a boring lights-to-flag win, as proved by the statistics. Besides, it doesn't help I find him arrogant

[F1000X]

Besides, it doesn't help I find him arrogant

I don't think Vettel is so much, but that finger of his sure is.


Edit 1: This is odd, I'm proud of Felipe Massa. Well played! Go ruin Nando's race!

Edit 2: Fox Sports summer F1 coverage winning award for worst music in a syndicated broadcast. SKY cannot be worse than this.

[DOSBoot]

Vettel pulling away again. At least Webber had a good start.

[Minardi Man]

Rosberg's falling backwards again.

[Londoner]

Massa has failed. Again.

And nearly becomes the next visitor to the Wall Of Champions...

[F1000X]

FFS MASSA!

[DOSBoot]

A big choke by Felipe Massa.

[Shizuka]

Not because I want to wish him harm, it's just a race with Vettel on pole usually proves to be a boring lights-to-flag win, as proved by the statistics. Besides, it doesn't help I find him arrogant

No, not here, in Montreal...

[WeirdKerr]

Di Resta train.....

[Londoner]

Di Resta pulling an 'Olivier Grouillard', only this time for position.

[S951]

oh filipe

paul struggling are we?