Shape of Things to Come in F1

rffp · Post by **rffp** » 04 Nov 2009, 11:26

In almost a year, Toyota, Honda and BMW have left F-1. Renault give many signs that they might follow their fellow manufacturers in the end of this "Second Era of the Manufacturers". It was foreseen by many, since the manufacturers shareholders are not near as enthusiasts of motorsport as someone like Eddie Jordan for instance.

But what now? Who will be replacing those heartless and cold suits that voted their teams out of F-1? When I started watching F-1 more than 25 years ago, there were great names like Brabham, Tyrrell, Lotus and Ligier, besides other traditional teams owned passionate men that gave their heart and soul to their teams. Those teams are gone. F-1 has been stripped of Brancaleone armies such as Osella, AGS and Spirit so the grid would be filled by more professional teams. And also teams that have budgets way larger than those of the 80's teams. And there the worries start.

Yes, it would be nice to see the grid be filled with teams from the feeder categories as Campos and Manor are doing. Why not teams like DAMS, ART or Super Nova? But can they come up with a budget about 10 times what they spend annually in their current categories? Even with the budget cap the financial leap was more than challenging, thus the doubts linger for these new teams if they will be able to survive 2010. Brawn GP is also struggling for 2010, since their inherited 1 billion dollars car (according to Alexander Wurz) is aging and they need money that they don't seem to have to keep their excellent momentum.

What worries me is the appearance of names of Qadbak and Proton in F-1. They remind me of some of these companies in the end of the 80s (mostly Japanese) that tried to take over F-1 such as Footwork, Leyton House, Espo, Middlebridge, etc. They all failed. And the budgets were smaller by then. I see many people saying that Toyota won't be missed, as Jaguar was not too, but who will miss those hacks from Lotus F1? Who will miss Qadbak? Probably those who will miss Sauber if they drag the Swiss team to the sewer. These hacks come with big money but no expectation to make a lasting impression.

There lies the greatest challenge for Jean Todt in the next years, how to make the F-1 grid be filled with committed, professional teams, and most important: be filled with real racing teams.

Bert · Post by **Bert** » 04 Nov 2009, 11:42

But as the sun sets in the west, it rises in the east. The end of the "Second Era of the Manufacturers" will allow for the "Second Era of the Rejects"! Andrea Moda 2, Eifelland and Pacific F1 can all make comebacks to further glorify and solidify their rejectdom.

The departures of BMW, Honda, Toyota and the return of Luca Badoer was simply a foretelling of the future return to rejectdomism. Now that we can clearly see they are simply 4 horsemen of the reject-pocalypse.

Always look on the bright side of life!

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 04 Nov 2009, 11:46

Toyota's withdrawl is not good. I'm not happy Qadbak Sauber will likely get a slot, because they are just going to run the team into the ground and get chased for fraud Andrea-Moda style.

Yannick · Post by **Yannick** » 04 Nov 2009, 12:11

rffp wrote:Yes, it would be nice to see the grid be filled with teams from the feeder categories as Campos and Manor are doing. Why not teams like DAMS, ART or Super Nova? But can they come up with a budget about 10 times what they spend annually in their current categories?

In the post-Bernie era, it looks likely that the budgets will shrink further, so F1 might become interesting for people like Roger Penske. Maybe N Technology might give it a 2nd go. Or how about Le Mans stalwarts like Pescarolo?

Remember for every Wolf, Yip and Hesketh (read: Shnaider, Mallya and Branson of their era), there used to be a Nunn, a Haas and a Minardi in the old days.

Still, the example of the Leyton Houses and Footworks might find their equals on the sponsorship side these days, with the INGs and RBS and their part in the global financial crisis - that is the same, just on a bigger scale.

Enforcer · Post by **Enforcer** » 04 Nov 2009, 12:58

I think there will be a return to something of a privateer era, but not the "buy and old March and stick a DFV in it" level of privateering. I think the closest thing will be the late 80s/early 90s where a team with a bit of expertise could get a chassis together and stick a DFZ in it, but I expect it'll be a level above that in terms of cost and professionalism.

But will there be reject drivers, pay-drivers & reject teams? Definitely.

shinji · Post by **shinji** » 04 Nov 2009, 13:40

I'm just banking on an entry for Stefan GP in about 2018. I'll get employment in F1, and my life will be set

.

Though it is looking like we may be left with Fiat and Mercedes and not much else. To the Cosworth, Batman!*

*What on earth was that? I have shamed myself.

Phoenix · Post by **Phoenix** » 04 Nov 2009, 14:17

The ancient mayas predicted it...the demise of big manufacturers, the return of Cosworth, of Badoer, perhaps of HWNSNBM, the departure of Mosley....we have some blue skies to look above...

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 04 Nov 2009, 15:32

kostas22 wrote:Toyota's withdrawl is not good. I'm not happy Qadbak Sauber will likely get a slot, because they are just going to run the team into the ground and get chased for fraud Andrea-Moda style.

Listen to the man, he may have a point. How long until someone other than McLaren buys BMW's engine business and starts selling kettles to unfortunate teams?

rffp · Post by **rffp** » 04 Nov 2009, 16:41

CarlosFerreira wrote:
kostas22 wrote:Toyota's withdrawl is not good. I'm not happy Qadbak Sauber will likely get a slot, because they are just going to run the team into the ground and get chased for fraud Andrea-Moda style.

Listen to the man, he may have a point. How long until someone other than McLaren buys BMW's engine business and starts selling kettles to unfortunate teams?

One big problem that arises from the departure of manufacturers: are there enough engine suppliers for a 13-team grid?

I count Mercedes, Ferrari, Renault and Cosworth. And if the Cosworth engines are born anemic?

Anyway, it doesn't take a prophet to foresee a growing gap between the front and end runners.

fjackdaw · Post by **fjackdaw** » 04 Nov 2009, 16:50

rffp wrote:
CarlosFerreira wrote:
kostas22 wrote:Toyota's withdrawl is not good. I'm not happy Qadbak Sauber will likely get a slot, because they are just going to run the team into the ground and get chased for fraud Andrea-Moda style.

Listen to the man, he may have a point. How long until someone other than McLaren buys BMW's engine business and starts selling kettles to unfortunate teams?

One big problem that arises from the departure of manufacturers: are there enough engine suppliers for a 13-team grid?

I count Mercedes, Ferrari, Renault and Cosworth. And if the Cosworth engines are born anemic?

Anyway, it doesn't take a prophet to foresee a growing gap between the front and end runners.

Yeah, that's my main worry - we're going to go back to two-horse seasons, it's all going to be about McLaren and Ferrari with all the others hoovering up the little points.

Debaser · Post by **Debaser** » 04 Nov 2009, 17:31

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsp ... 343221.stm

Looks like Renault are legging it as well...

fjackdaw · Post by **fjackdaw** » 04 Nov 2009, 17:37

Debaser wrote:http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8343221.stm

Looks like Renault are legging it as well...

Wow, it's apocalyptic. It's like the end of Blake's 7 or something...

rffp · Post by **rffp** » 04 Nov 2009, 17:52

Well, Renault did not surprise me.
I saw them forfeit in 1985, 1997 (as engine supplier) and now 2009. Third time is a charm!

I agree with Ferrari's view: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/80013
But they should remember that they are a team that hardly made an effort to cut down costs...

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 04 Nov 2009, 18:31

Debaser wrote:http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8343221.stm

Looks like Renault are legging it as well...

I've been saving my Matrix quote for something like this: "It means buckle your seatbelt, Dorothy, 'cause Kansas is going bye-bye." I'm also reverting to my old sig...

shinji · Post by **shinji** » 04 Nov 2009, 18:56

CarlosFerreira wrote:
Debaser wrote:http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8343221.stm

Looks like Renault are legging it as well...

I've been saving my Matrix quote for something like this: "It means buckle your seatbelt, Dorothy, 'cause Kansas is going bye-bye." I'm also reverting to my old sig...

Just in the interest of accuracy, the date on that's wrong. It was 4th August. http://www.f1rejects.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=361&p=8480#p8480

I just remembered it as not April 2nd. I think you may have tried to pass yourself off as even more prophetic than you actually were. Why does this matter? It really doesn't. I just have no life.

WeirdKerr · Post by **WeirdKerr** » 04 Nov 2009, 18:57

My biggest concern if Renault quit then how long will Mercedes stick around which would take us back to the 70s a grid full of cars running cosworths against the red cars powered by their own engines...... what goes round comes round i guess.....

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 04 Nov 2009, 19:04

shinji wrote:
CarlosFerreira wrote:
Debaser wrote:http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8343221.stm

Looks like Renault are legging it as well...

I've been saving my Matrix quote for something like this: "It means buckle your seatbelt, Dorothy, 'cause Kansas is going bye-bye." I'm also reverting to my old sig...

Just in the interest of accuracy, the date on that's wrong. It was 4th August. http://www.f1rejects.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=361&p=8480#p8480

I just remembered it as not April 2nd. I think you may have tried to pass yourself off as even more prophetic than you actually were. Why does this matter? It really doesn't. I just have no life.

I looked at the "joined" date. Indeed, you have no life, and I am childish - actually turned red at realising the mistake. :oops:

thehemogoblin · Post by **thehemogoblin** » 04 Nov 2009, 19:29

Well, there are a lot of engines that are still floating around even if these teams aren't in Formula One next year. The ex-Renault, the ex-Toyota, the ex-BMW, and even the ex-Honda, depending on how desperate some of the new teams are.

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 04 Nov 2009, 19:42

thehemogoblin wrote:Well, there are a lot of engines that are still floating around even if these teams aren't in Formula One next year. The ex-Renault, the ex-Toyota, the ex-BMW, and even the ex-Honda, depending on how desperate some of the new teams are.

I was thinking about the ex-Toyotas. Did those things ship from Japan, or were made in Germany? And will the people working on them be pulled to other Toyota programs, such as NASCAR and J-GT?

thehemogoblin · Post by **thehemogoblin** » 04 Nov 2009, 19:46

CarlosFerreira wrote:
thehemogoblin wrote:Well, there are a lot of engines that are still floating around even if these teams aren't in Formula One next year. The ex-Renault, the ex-Toyota, the ex-BMW, and even the ex-Honda, depending on how desperate some of the new teams are.

I was thinking about the ex-Toyotas. Did those things ship from Japan, or were made in Germany? And will the people working on them be pulled to other Toyota programs, such as NASCAR and J-GT?

I doubt they'll go to NASCAR because they have an F1-like engine freeze these days. Also, since the engines are carbureted instead of fuel injected, the engine people would be more or less useless in NASCAR.

Phoenix · Post by **Phoenix** » 04 Nov 2009, 19:46

CarlosFerreira wrote:
thehemogoblin wrote:Well, there are a lot of engines that are still floating around even if these teams aren't in Formula One next year. The ex-Renault, the ex-Toyota, the ex-BMW, and even the ex-Honda, depending on how desperate some of the new teams are.

I was thinking about the ex-Toyotas. Did those things ship from Japan, or were made in Germany? And will the people working on them be pulled to other Toyota programs, such as NASCAR and J-GT?

I doubt it, they don't have much relation with the F1 programme.

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 04 Nov 2009, 19:53

Phoenix wrote:
CarlosFerreira wrote:
thehemogoblin wrote:Well, there are a lot of engines that are still floating around even if these teams aren't in Formula One next year. The ex-Renault, the ex-Toyota, the ex-BMW, and even the ex-Honda, depending on how desperate some of the new teams are.

I was thinking about the ex-Toyotas. Did those things ship from Japan, or were made in Germany? And will the people working on them be pulled to other Toyota programs, such as NASCAR and J-GT?

I doubt it, they don't have much relation with the F1 programme.

Imagine that... F1-2009's weakest engine (in terms of power), reworked by some buggers in a shed... better get the tea leaves out!

thehemogoblin · Post by **thehemogoblin** » 04 Nov 2009, 19:55

Do you honestly think the Williams car was that good then, Carlos?

Phoenix · Post by **Phoenix** » 04 Nov 2009, 20:00

CarlosFerreira wrote:
Phoenix wrote:
CarlosFerreira wrote:I was thinking about the ex-Toyotas. Did those things ship from Japan, or were made in Germany? And will the people working on them be pulled to other Toyota programs, such as NASCAR and J-GT?

I doubt it, they don't have much relation with the F1 programme.

Imagine that... F1-2009's weakest engine (in terms of power), reworked by some buggers in a shed... better get the tea leaves out!

As an historical note, that was the way one of F1's most obscure reject teams was born (the entire car, not the engine): the Apollon!

shinji · Post by **shinji** » 04 Nov 2009, 20:03

Phoenix wrote:As an historical note, that was the way one of F1's most obscure reject teams was born (the entire car, not the engine): the Apollon!

Organised by the Jolly Club of Switzerland! Gotta love that name.

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 04 Nov 2009, 20:06

thehemogoblin wrote:Do you honestly think the Williams car was that good then, Carlos?

It was quite good. They were in the deep points region, consistently around 4th or 5th up to Spa and Monza, where they were nowhere. In the power areas, the Williamses disappeared, as did the more slippery Toyotas.

I also think Rosberg is about the second or third best driver in the grid these days, hence the 34.5 points. Too bad they lost their way with the new nose in Suzuka and Abu Dhabi. They were not the 7th best (read 3rd worst...) car in the Championship for most season.

thehemogoblin · Post by **thehemogoblin** » 04 Nov 2009, 20:15

Do you thing Rosberg will have the better of Button next year?

(I guess I didn't realize how down-on-power this year's Toyota was. Could they end up as a Brawn-like team next year with a better engine crammed inside of the chassis?)

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 04 Nov 2009, 20:34

thehemogoblin wrote:Do you thing Rosberg will have the better of Button next year?

(I guess I didn't realize how down-on-power this year's Toyota was. Could they end up as a Brawn-like team next year with a better engine crammed inside of the chassis?)

I think Rosberg will have the measure of Button, except in the case tyre management comes into play and he somehow can't adapt. In terms of raw speed, talent and - Captain Hammer will kick me in the head for this - motivation, Button is probably no match for Rosberg. My podium in terms of talent and pace these days reads Hamilton-Vettel-Rosberg. All are flawed diamonds, but doesn't Rosberg look more grown up than the other 2?

2010, Williams FTW! No, wait, Barrichello will come 2nd again...

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 04 Nov 2009, 20:36

CarlosFerreira wrote:2010, Williams FTW!

Go read my 2010 Prediction, and then you'll be saying that and meaning it.

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 04 Nov 2009, 20:39

kostas22 wrote:
CarlosFerreira wrote:2010, Williams FTW!

Go read my 2010 Prediction, and then you'll be saying that and meaning it.

I promise I will. Regardless, I always mean it when I say Williams FTW.

fondmetal-fond · Post by **fondmetal-fond** » 04 Nov 2009, 21:26

Has Cosworth released any statements about how many teams they can supply engines to?

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