2012 German Grand Prix Discussion Thread

sswishbone · Post by **sswishbone** » 22 Jul 2012, 14:12

For avoidance of all doubt, all possibilites for any punishment for Vettel are: -

a) A drive-through penalty. The driver must enter the pit lane and re-join the race without stopping.
b) A ten second time penalty. The driver must enter the pit lane, stop at his pit for at least ten seconds and then re-join the race.
If either of the two penalties above are imposed during the last five laps, or after the end of a race, Article 16.4b) below will not apply and 20 seconds will be added to the elapsed race time of the driver concerned in the case of a) above and 30 seconds in the case of b).
c) A time penalty.
d) A reprimand.
If any of the four penalties above are imposed they shall not be subject to appeal.
e) A drop of any number of grid positions at the driver's next Event.
f) Exclusion from the results.
g) Suspension from the driver's next Event.

of those it'll either be a drive through adjusted or a reprimand in my opinion, should any action be taken at all

Horner disagrees with the pundits and the two people who've done race stewarding, no surprise there, what is surprising he claims Jenson pushed him wide... err... How?

Post by **mario** » 22 Jul 2012, 14:21

sswishbone wrote:
mario wrote:
sswishbone wrote:Vettel shhould get a penalty for that, passing off the track is illegal, and it needs to be stamped out!

The stewards have confirmed that they are investigating the issue, so it is possible that Vettel will get a penalty for that (nice touch by Button to inform Vettel that he was being investigated by the stewards). Whilst Vettel's excuse for going off track was that he couldn't see Button and was leaving room for him (that was what it sounded like he said), the fact that he stayed on full throttle is not going to help his cause because it looks like he was intent on passing come what may.

Thing here, looking at the footage, vettel's car was not ahead of Button at any time before he floored it, so hope they give instant penalty, swithc back, time penalty, grid penalty, whatever, give the penalty

The only reason why I am being a little cautious is that I would not be entirely surprised if the stewards were pushed towards awarding a deferred penalty - i.e. a grid penalty for the next race - rather than antagonise the German fans.
If Vettel is given a time penalty, though, it'll please quite a few drivers - a 25s time penalty, which would probably be the penalty that would be levied (being roughly equivalent to a drive through in terms of time loss), would be enough to drop Vettel from 2nd to 6th (had Schumacher been a few hundredths faster, that would be 7th). I can imagine that Ferrari might be especially keen for that to happen - it'd help eke Alonso's lead out further in the WDC and they'd erode Red Bull Racing's lead in the WCC slightly too given Webber's relatively poor race.

jackanderton · Post by **jackanderton** » 22 Jul 2012, 15:13

If they don't penalise Vettel here then they may as well not have this rule.

He went fully off track while behind Button, and was fully in front of Button when he rejoined, end of.

Ferrim · Post by **Ferrim** » 22 Jul 2012, 15:35

Vettel punished with 20 seconds, demoted to 5th!

Post by **mario** » 22 Jul 2012, 15:39

Ferrim wrote:Vettel punished with 20 seconds, demoted to 5th!

Confirmation of Vettel's penalty here, along with confirmation that Kimi is now awarded 3rd place and Kobayashi is up into 4th: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/101426

Benetton · Post by **Benetton** » 22 Jul 2012, 15:40

Thank god for that! Thank you stewards for restoring some faith in you! That pass was illegal and the penalty was fair (an equivalent to a Drive Through).

FullMetalJack · Post by **FullMetalJack** » 22 Jul 2012, 15:44

mario wrote:
Ferrim wrote:Vettel punished with 20 seconds, demoted to 5th!

Confirmation of Vettel's penalty here, along with confirmation that Kimi is now awarded 3rd place and Kobayashi is up into 4th: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/101426

Best finish of Kobayashi's career!!!

Aerospeed · Post by **Aerospeed** » 22 Jul 2012, 15:50

Quite pleased about this. Hopefully Alonso can get DSQ'd for a technical infringement and Kobayashi can get a podium finish :mrgreen:

But that's perhaps a bit too optimistic

Dj_bereta · Post by **Dj_bereta** » 22 Jul 2012, 15:53

Vettel's manouver remind me a little what Kimi did in the race start of Belgian grand prix of 2009 and in that occasion, Kimi wasn't punished. Oh stewards, you robbed first FI victory!

JeremyMcClean wrote:Quite pleased about this. Hopefully Alonso can get DSQ'd for a technical infringement and Kobayashi can get a podium finish But that's perhaps a bit too optimistic

Hopefully Alonso, Button and Kimi get DSQ'd and Kobayashi can get a win. :mrgreen:

fixed.

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 22 Jul 2012, 16:10

Does Kamui unrejectify himself with this result, or was he already not a reject?

FullMetalJack · Post by **FullMetalJack** » 22 Jul 2012, 16:12

dr-baker wrote:Does Kamui unrejectify himself with this result, or was he already not a reject?

Kobayashi unrejectified himself long ago.

Post by **Londoner** » 22 Jul 2012, 16:12

dr-baker wrote:Does Kamui unrejectify himself with this result, or was he already not a reject?

Where the hell have you been for the past year? :lol:

He scored a 5th in Monaco last year which did it for him.

Benetton · Post by **Benetton** » 22 Jul 2012, 16:13

dr-baker wrote:Does Kamui unrejectify himself with this result, or was he already not a reject?

He had already made it out of rejectdom.

sswishbone · Post by **sswishbone** » 22 Jul 2012, 16:14

Definitely the right decision, all vettel needed to do was wait one lap and none of this would have happened, still, thank you stewards

Ferrim · Post by **Ferrim** » 22 Jul 2012, 16:20

Our Lord Kobayashi's career results showed two 5ths and three 6ths before today's 4th.

May He take mercy on you for doubting about his unrejectfulness.

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 22 Jul 2012, 16:29

And all I have in reply is: :oops:

. May HWNSNBM have mercy on my soul.

WeirdKerr · Post by **WeirdKerr** » 22 Jul 2012, 16:30

Excuse me but Button forced Vettel off track so should of got the penalty not Vettel....

Post by **Londoner** » 22 Jul 2012, 16:34

WeirdKerr wrote:Excuse me but Button forced Vettel off track so should of got the penalty not Vettel....

What? Jenson was ahead so was perfectly entitled to take his usual racing line. Vettel was impatient, and it's come back to haunt him. :roll:

sswishbone · Post by **sswishbone** » 22 Jul 2012, 16:46

WeirdKerr wrote:Excuse me but Button forced Vettel off track so should of got the penalty not Vettel....

Let's see... deliberately change direction? No. Touch the other driver's car? No. Slow down unreasonably on the racing line? No, Leave less than a car width outside his line? No.

The jury find your argument false, case dismissed!

WeirdKerr · Post by **WeirdKerr** » 22 Jul 2012, 17:12

sswishbone wrote:
WeirdKerr wrote:Excuse me but Button forced Vettel off track so should of got the penalty not Vettel....

Let's see... deliberately change direction? No. Touch the other driver's car? No. Slow down unreasonably on the racing line? No, Leave less than a car width outside his line? No.

The jury find your argument false, case dismissed!

I think you will find that the last point is yes.... Button ran Vettel out of road by forcing the german wide..... which left vettel with nowhere to go

AdrianSutil · Post by **AdrianSutil** » 22 Jul 2012, 17:17

WeirdKerr wrote:
sswishbone wrote:
WeirdKerr wrote:Excuse me but Button forced Vettel off track so should of got the penalty not Vettel....

Let's see... deliberately change direction? No. Touch the other driver's car? No. Slow down unreasonably on the racing line? No, Leave less than a car width outside his line? No.

The jury find your argument false, case dismissed!

I think you will find that the last point is yes.... Button ran Vettel out of road by forcing the german wide..... which left vettel with nowhere to go

Button was clearly ahead and had the inside line, so IF he wanted to nudge Vettel out wide he's perfectly intitled to do so. What Vettel did was wrong, not Button. End of discussion. Get over it.

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 22 Jul 2012, 17:56

Anyone who says Vettel's penalty was not deserved is clearly biased. He deliberately went off the road to take the position, that is unequivocal. 20 seconds is a bit harsh, but the regulations don't allow the stewards to do a straight swap of position, so, 20 seconds is more just than no seconds.

Excellent result for Sauber. Both guys really stepped up in the race. If Peter Sauber really was unhappy about his drivers' performances, this should cheer him up.

Post by **mario** » 22 Jul 2012, 19:31

WeirdKerr wrote:
sswishbone wrote:
WeirdKerr wrote:Excuse me but Button forced Vettel off track so should of got the penalty not Vettel....

Let's see... deliberately change direction? No. Touch the other driver's car? No. Slow down unreasonably on the racing line? No, Leave less than a car width outside his line? No.

The jury find your argument false, case dismissed!

I think you will find that the last point is yes.... Button ran Vettel out of road by forcing the german wide..... which left vettel with nowhere to go

I would respectfully disagree with your comment on that aspect - the overhead footage suggests that, at the point that Vettel started to leave the circuit, Button was providing Vettel with at least a cars width of room between himself and the edge of the track, as outlined in the sporting code.

kostas22 wrote:Anyone who says Vettel's penalty was not deserved is clearly biased. He deliberately went off the road to take the position, that is unequivocal. 20 seconds is a bit harsh, but the regulations don't allow the stewards to do a straight swap of position, so, 20 seconds is more just than no seconds.

Excellent result for Sauber. Both guys really stepped up in the race. If Peter Sauber really was unhappy about his drivers' performances, this should cheer him up.

Asides from the fact that 20 seconds is the default penalty, in some ways it is appropriate - Charlie Whiting had made it absolutely clear that he had instructed the stewards to be quite strict if it was felt that drivers were leaving the circuit to gain an advantage, and had reiterated that point in the driver briefings quite clearly. I believe that the stewards even went as far as cancelling some of the lap times of several drivers during qualifying - I know that Vettel was given a formal warning for overuse of the Turn 1 run off area and had at least one of his laps stripped from him in Q1 (with Grosjean and Hamilton also running wide at Turn 1 and having a lap time deleted in Q1 for the very same reason, showing that the stewards were at least consistent in enforcing that rule), so it was no idle threat.
Added to that, it could also be noted that the severity of the penalty acts as a deterrent - I know that some were calling for a smaller time penalty (in the order of five seconds, as was imposed in Valencia a few years ago) so Vettel and Button would have their places reversed.
Whilst there is a logic in that, at the same time it would not discourage other drivers from trying a similar move themselves - if the worst that would happen is that you end up back where you were, and in the best scenario you might keep the place (for more ambiguous situation), why wouldn't you try doing something like that then? Vettel's penalty, therefore, makes it clearer that the FIA will not tolerate those sorts of antics and should act as a stronger deterrent against leaving the track.

Barbazza · Post by **Barbazza** » 22 Jul 2012, 20:05

I think a penalty is the right decision, but 20 seconds is too harsh - they should have just swapped the places round. Much as I approve of Kamui getting 4th.

GwilymJJames · Post by **GwilymJJames** » 22 Jul 2012, 20:06

De la Rosa overtook someone! De la Rosa overtook someone! De la Rosa overtook someone! De la Rosa overtook someone! De la Rosa overtook someone! De la Rosa overtook someone! De la Rosa overtook someone! De la Rosa overtook someone! De la Rosa overtook someone! De la Rosa overtook someone! De la Rosa overtook someone! De la Rosa overtook someone! De la Rosa overtook someone! De la Rosa overtook someone!

This WAS HRT's race!

FullMetalJack · Post by **FullMetalJack** » 22 Jul 2012, 20:16

GwilymJJames wrote:De la Rosa overtook someone! De la Rosa overtook someone! De la Rosa overtook someone! De la Rosa overtook someone! De la Rosa overtook someone! De la Rosa overtook someone! De la Rosa overtook someone! De la Rosa overtook someone! De la Rosa overtook someone! De la Rosa overtook someone! De la Rosa overtook someone! De la Rosa overtook someone! De la Rosa overtook someone! De la Rosa overtook someone!

This WAS HRT's race!

Who was it? I'm assuming Glock.

S951 · Post by **S951** » 22 Jul 2012, 20:39

thank the papayas the finger got demoted bloody good race by Alonso agree with sentiments he is doing one hell of a job in a car that is not the best (good but not the bets all rounder)

Post by **Nuppiz** » 22 Jul 2012, 21:05

Dj_bereta wrote:Vettel's manouver remind me a little what Kimi did in the race start of Belgian grand prix of 2009 and in that occasion, Kimi wasn't punished. Oh stewards, you robbed first FI victory!

Going off-topic, but... Ever since we first had that argument on this forum, I've wondered if the members wouldn't have cared so much from Kimi's manouvre if it hadn't denied Fisichella from taking a victory for Force India, which at the time was one of the forum's biggest favourites (due to their underdog nature).

Ferrim · Post by **Ferrim** » 22 Jul 2012, 21:20

Of course. Just like no one apart from the F1 Rejects Sect remembers what happened to Luca Badoer a certain day of 1999.

RonDenisDeletraz · Post by **RonDenisDeletraz** » 22 Jul 2012, 22:25

Nuppiz wrote:
Dj_bereta wrote:Vettel's manouver remind me a little what Kimi did in the race start of Belgian grand prix of 2009 and in that occasion, Kimi wasn't punished. Oh stewards, you robbed first FI victory!

Going off-topic, but... Ever since we first had that argument on this forum, I've wondered if the members wouldn't have cared so much from Kimi's manouvre if it hadn't denied Fisichella from taking a victory for Force India, which at the time was one of the forum's biggest favourites (due to their underdog nature).

I have never really liked FI, probably because all their cars have looked terrible.

Post by **Londoner** » 22 Jul 2012, 23:23

Oh boy, the F1 Slate are gonna have a field day with this race. Can't bloody wait for it. :lol:

FullMetalJack · Post by **FullMetalJack** » 22 Jul 2012, 23:28

East Londoner wrote:Oh boy, the F1 Slate are gonna have a field day with this race. Can't bloody wait for it.

I just can't wait for bestofbritish, that's always the funniest one.

Whis · Post by **Whis** » 23 Jul 2012, 00:13

i really like how Massa it's always crap and in the meantime his teammate always stay on top. and they laughed at Badoer... oh boy :roll:

FMecha · Post by **FMecha** » 23 Jul 2012, 00:42

Kostas, Mario, go check the Unpopular Opinions thread and look about my latest comment about Vettel. :twisted:

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 23 Jul 2012, 02:19

FMecha wrote:Kostas, Mario, go check the Unpopular Opinions thread and look about my latest comment about Vettel.

Normally I'd let that slide but now it's starting to get borderline pointless and irritating.

Frentzen127 · Post by **Frentzen127** » 23 Jul 2012, 04:02

Wizzie wrote:
FMecha wrote:Kostas, Mario, go check the Unpopular Opinions thread and look about my latest comment about Vettel.

Normally I'd let that slide but now it's starting to get borderline pointless and irritating.

Check the JDD forum for my reply to your post.

CoopsII · Post by **CoopsII** » 23 Jul 2012, 07:39

Im not really sure why Vettel is being demonised for the move on Button, its not like it was dangerous or anything. Its right he was punished but lets not get carried away.

As a valued BBC viewer I missed the podium, er, interview. Was it better than the Silverstone cringe-fest?

FMecha · Post by **FMecha** » 23 Jul 2012, 08:25

CoopsII wrote:Im not really sure why Vettel is being demonised for the move on Button, its not like it was dangerous or anything. Its right he was punished but lets not get carried away.

People think that his move was considered as a dangerous driving, sir. :roll:

CoopsII · Post by **CoopsII** » 23 Jul 2012, 08:32

FMecha wrote:
CoopsII wrote:Im not really sure why Vettel is being demonised for the move on Button, its not like it was dangerous or anything. Its right he was punished but lets not get carried away.

People think that his move was considered as a dangerous driving, sir.

Then they are stupid people :roll:

. Over-taking completely off the track and rejoining well in front of the other car is hardly likely to cause an accident.

Minardi Man · Post by **Minardi Man** » 23 Jul 2012, 09:04

CoopsII wrote:
FMecha wrote:
CoopsII wrote:Im not really sure why Vettel is being demonised for the move on Button, its not like it was dangerous or anything. Its right he was punished but lets not get carried away.

People think that his move was considered as a dangerous driving, sir.

Then they are stupid people . Over-taking completely off the track and rejoining well in front of the other car is hardly likely to cause an accident.

It is illegal though, thus the penalty.