Jenson Button - F1s Elder Statesman

The place for speaking your mind on current goings-on in F1
User avatar
CarlosFerreira
Posts: 4974
Joined: 02 Apr 2009, 14:31
Location: UK

Re: Jenson Button - F1s Elder Statesman

Post by CarlosFerreira »

mario wrote:
CarlosFerreira wrote:
redbulljack14 wrote:Can't see it happening, as much as I want it to.


Stranger things have happened. I mean, HRT made it to the end of 2012, and Rosberg has won a race. Next thing you know, Maldonado wins a race... :roll:

Assuming that McLaren produce a reliable and quick enough car, yes, Button could compete for the title provided that he can maintain the same sort of consistency that he showed in 2009 and 2011. If, however, he suffers from a repeat in the mid season slump in pace he has in 2012 when he struggled heavily with his set up, the sheer consistency of Alonso and Vettel would leave Button behind - something that is not impossible given that Pirelli is tweaking the tyre compounds again for 2013.


McLaren has apparently been taking up their new car for a while now. Jenson still has it. This could be it!
Stay home, Colin Kolles!
User avatar
mario
Posts: 8130
Joined: 31 Oct 2009, 17:13

Re: Jenson Button - F1s Elder Statesman

Post by mario »

mario wrote:
CarlosFerreira wrote:
redbulljack14 wrote:Can't see it happening, as much as I want it to.


Stranger things have happened. I mean, HRT made it to the end of 2012, and Rosberg has won a race. Next thing you know, Maldonado wins a race... :roll:

Assuming that McLaren produce a reliable and quick enough car, yes, Button could compete for the title provided that he can maintain the same sort of consistency that he showed in 2009 and 2011. If, however, he suffers from a repeat in the mid season slump in pace he has in 2012 when he struggled heavily with his set up, the sheer consistency of Alonso and Vettel would leave Button behind - something that is not impossible given that Pirelli is tweaking the tyre compounds again for 2013.

CarlosFerreira wrote:McLaren has apparently been taking up their new car for a while now. Jenson still has it. This could be it!

I do not doubt that McLaren have talked their car up for some time, but that in itself is no guarantee of its quality (they did the same ahead of the 2009 season, for example, even though testing quickly revealed that the car couldn't match their expectations). Equally, when Button has everything to his liking, he can be a formidable competitor, as was shown by the serene way in which he won in Belgium, and if he can string together a sequence of races like that then he'll definitely be in contention for the title.

However, we have seen occasions when Button has managed to get himself lost with his set up work - Canada in 2012 was a somewhat extreme example, but there were similar problems in Monaco and Bahrain when McLaren made a few revisions to the cars. Given how close the title races have been in recent years, few drivers can afford more than one or two poor races - moreover, although Button wasn't afflicted by as many mechanical problems as Hamilton, reliability did hinder him at times last year too, whereas Ferrari, by contrast, have had, if nothing else, phenomenally reliable cars; Red Bull are not that far behind in that area either.
Now, the stability of the regulations should give the team some advantage (since they can work from what was already a fairly competitive car), and the fact that Pirelli has designed the tyres to heat up more rapidly should help Button in qualifying at least (he was struggling with getting the front tyres to heat up rapidly enough in qualifying at times last year), but even so, it would only take a small lapse in form for Button, or for a few moments of strategic blunders and reliability woes for the team, for him to fall behind and then struggle to make up the difference.
Martin Brundle, on watching a replay of Grosjean spinning:
"The problem with Grosjean is that he want to take a look back at the corner he's just exited"
User avatar
CarlosFerreira
Posts: 4974
Joined: 02 Apr 2009, 14:31
Location: UK

Re: Jenson Button - F1s Elder Statesman

Post by CarlosFerreira »

mario wrote:
mario wrote:
CarlosFerreira wrote:
Stranger things have happened. I mean, HRT made it to the end of 2012, and Rosberg has won a race. Next thing you know, Maldonado wins a race... :roll:

Assuming that McLaren produce a reliable and quick enough car, yes, Button could compete for the title provided that he can maintain the same sort of consistency that he showed in 2009 and 2011. If, however, he suffers from a repeat in the mid season slump in pace he has in 2012 when he struggled heavily with his set up, the sheer consistency of Alonso and Vettel would leave Button behind - something that is not impossible given that Pirelli is tweaking the tyre compounds again for 2013.

CarlosFerreira wrote:McLaren has apparently been taking up their new car for a while now. Jenson still has it. This could be it!

I do not doubt that McLaren have talked their car up for some time, but that in itself is no guarantee of its quality (they did the same ahead of the 2009 season, for example, even though testing quickly revealed that the car couldn't match their expectations). Equally, when Button has everything to his liking, he can be a formidable competitor, as was shown by the serene way in which he won in Belgium, and if he can string together a sequence of races like that then he'll definitely be in contention for the title.

However, we have seen occasions when Button has managed to get himself lost with his set up work - Canada in 2012 was a somewhat extreme example, but there were similar problems in Monaco and Bahrain when McLaren made a few revisions to the cars. Given how close the title races have been in recent years, few drivers can afford more than one or two poor races - moreover, although Button wasn't afflicted by as many mechanical problems as Hamilton, reliability did hinder him at times last year too, whereas Ferrari, by contrast, have had, if nothing else, phenomenally reliable cars; Red Bull are not that far behind in that area either.
Now, the stability of the regulations should give the team some advantage (since they can work from what was already a fairly competitive car), and the fact that Pirelli has designed the tyres to heat up more rapidly should help Button in qualifying at least (he was struggling with getting the front tyres to heat up rapidly enough in qualifying at times last year), but even so, it would only take a small lapse in form for Button, or for a few moments of strategic blunders and reliability woes for the team, for him to fall behind and then struggle to make up the difference.


Granted, all of the above. To be perfectly honest, I think Button has, at best, an outside chance at the title in 2013. I'm rather fond of Mr Nice Guy Benson, but I suppose most people agree there are 3 confirmed all-out champions out there (Vettel, Alonso, Hamilton), and that everyone else needs a lot of breaks to beat them all.

And yet... this year the regulations will change very little. No alarms and no surprises. Also, McLaren won't be dividing their attentions between two opposing styles of driving, and could focus on giving Button a car suited to his driving style. This could really work...
Stay home, Colin Kolles!
User avatar
TomWazzleshaw
Posts: 14370
Joined: 01 Apr 2009, 04:42
Location: Curva do lel
Contact:

Re: Jenson Button - F1s Elder Statesman

Post by TomWazzleshaw »

CarlosFerreira wrote:Granted, all of the above. To be perfectly honest, I think Button has, at best, an outside chance at the title in 2013. I'm rather fond of Mr Nice Guy Benson, but I suppose most people agree there are 3 confirmed all-out champions out there (Vettel, Alonso, Hamilton), and that everyone else needs a lot of breaks to beat them all.


Not quite, he's already checkmated himself out of this year's title equation unless that mob from Stuttgart can pull out a miracle from somewhere.
Biscione wrote:"Some Turkemenistani gulag repurposed for residential use" is the best way yet I've heard to describe North / East Glasgow.
User avatar
pi314159
Posts: 3661
Joined: 11 Aug 2012, 12:12

Re: Jenson Button - F1s Elder Statesman

Post by pi314159 »

CarlosFerreira wrote:Granted, all of the above. To be perfectly honest, I think Button has, at best, an outside chance at the title in 2013. I'm rather fond of Mr Nice Guy Benson, but I suppose most people agree there are 3 confirmed all-out champions out there (Vettel, Alonso, Hamilton), and that everyone else needs a lot of breaks to beat them all.

And yet... this year the regulations will change very little. No alarms and no surprises. Also, McLaren won't be dividing their attentions between two opposing styles of driving, and could focus on giving Button a car suited to his driving style. This could really work...


I doubt a lot that Hamilton will be a title contender this year. He is definitely one of the fastest drivers, but the Mercedes was only the eighth best car at the end of 2012, so I don't expect them to beat any of the top four teams. I guess Hamilton's 2013 will be like Alonso's 2008/09.

Vettel and Alonso however will be hard to beat for Button.
pasta_maldonado wrote:The stewards have recommended that Alan Jones learns to drive.
User avatar
CarlosFerreira
Posts: 4974
Joined: 02 Apr 2009, 14:31
Location: UK

Re: Jenson Button - F1s Elder Statesman

Post by CarlosFerreira »

Wizzie wrote:Not quite, he's already checkmated himself out of this year's title equation unless that mob from Stuttgart can pull out a miracle from somewhere.



pi314159 wrote:I doubt a lot that Hamilton will be a title contender this year. He is definitely one of the fastest drivers, but the Mercedes was only the eighth best car at the end of 2012, so I don't expect them to beat any of the top four teams. I guess Hamilton's 2013 will be like Alonso's 2008/09.

Vettel and Alonso however will be hard to beat for Button.


Oh yes, absolutely, but you'll see him up there during qualifying (I expect him to do pole in the first race) and during the first laps of each race, and ultimately he'll probably bring home a couple of wins. Even on a Reliant Robin, Lewis Hamilton would be a factor, especially for a relatively weak qualifier such as Jenson.
Stay home, Colin Kolles!
User avatar
Paul Hayes
Posts: 1109
Joined: 17 Apr 2009, 19:54

Re: Jenson Button - F1s Elder Statesman

Post by Paul Hayes »

In many ways, Button is one of the great unknowns of 2013.

As has been said, he tends to need the car to be just right - very much a Goldilcocks sort of a driver! - but if that *does* happen, then there's no reason why he shouldn't fight for the title.

I'd certainly like to see it, anyway!
User avatar
madmark1974
Posts: 799
Joined: 23 Aug 2010, 09:09
Location: Bury St. Edmunds, Suffolk, England

Re: Jenson Button - F1s Elder Statesman

Post by madmark1974 »

CarlosFerreira wrote:
Wizzie wrote:Not quite, he's already checkmated himself out of this year's title equation unless that mob from Stuttgart can pull out a miracle from somewhere.



pi314159 wrote:I doubt a lot that Hamilton will be a title contender this year. He is definitely one of the fastest drivers, but the Mercedes was only the eighth best car at the end of 2012, so I don't expect them to beat any of the top four teams. I guess Hamilton's 2013 will be like Alonso's 2008/09.

Vettel and Alonso however will be hard to beat for Button.


Oh yes, absolutely, but you'll see him up there during qualifying (I expect him to do pole in the first race) and during the first laps of each race, and ultimately he'll probably bring home a couple of wins. Even on a Reliant Robin, Lewis Hamilton would be a factor, especially for a relatively weak qualifier such as Jenson.


You could well be right there - Lewis could become the next Trulli Train, it's a shame that DRS will probably see him overtaken easier though.
User avatar
mario
Posts: 8130
Joined: 31 Oct 2009, 17:13

Re: Jenson Button - F1s Elder Statesman

Post by mario »

CarlosFerreira wrote:
Wizzie wrote:Not quite, he's already checkmated himself out of this year's title equation unless that mob from Stuttgart can pull out a miracle from somewhere.



pi314159 wrote:I doubt a lot that Hamilton will be a title contender this year. He is definitely one of the fastest drivers, but the Mercedes was only the eighth best car at the end of 2012, so I don't expect them to beat any of the top four teams. I guess Hamilton's 2013 will be like Alonso's 2008/09.

Vettel and Alonso however will be hard to beat for Button.


Oh yes, absolutely, but you'll see him up there during qualifying (I expect him to do pole in the first race) and during the first laps of each race, and ultimately he'll probably bring home a couple of wins. Even on a Reliant Robin, Lewis Hamilton would be a factor, especially for a relatively weak qualifier such as Jenson.

You're right that he'll probably be a factor in the opening races of the 2013 season - the W03, whilst not the quickest car at the start of the season, was fairly handy over a single lap and moderately competitive in race trim (at least on a par with Lotus). Given that Hamilton seems to be in a stronger position mentally and will act as a major incentive for Rosberg to up his game, plus the improvements in Mercedes's resources (investment in their wind tunnel and changes in their aerodynamics team), they'll probably start 2013 off in the same position as 2012 (i.e. battling with Lotus for best of the rest behind the big three teams).
Whether they can maintain that relative position is less clear - OK, they managed it in 2010 at least, but both 2011 and 2012 saw them slide down the field as the season wore on, something that neither the drivers nor the board are likely to tolerate for the third year in a row.
Martin Brundle, on watching a replay of Grosjean spinning:
"The problem with Grosjean is that he want to take a look back at the corner he's just exited"
User avatar
Shizuka
Posts: 4793
Joined: 27 Jul 2010, 15:36

Re: Jenson Button - F1s Elder Statesman

Post by Shizuka »

pi314159 wrote:I guess Hamilton's 2013 will be like Alonso's 2008/09.


I can agree with that. 09 will be more likely, if Mercedes drops the ball like last year, 08, if they can improve over the season.
I'm expecting him to beat Rosberg by a margin as of now.

Code: Select all

14:03   RaikkonenPlsCare   There's some water in water
User avatar
CoopsII
Posts: 4676
Joined: 15 Dec 2011, 09:33
Location: Starkiller Base Debris

Re: Jenson Button - F1s Elder Statesman

Post by CoopsII »

madmark1974 wrote:Lewis could become the next Trulli Train.

Nah, he'll have an accident with Grosjean/Maldonado/Webber/Massa way before that happens.
Just For One Day...
User avatar
Cynon
Posts: 3518
Joined: 29 Mar 2009, 00:33
Location: Chicago, Illinois
Contact:

Re: Jenson Button - F1s Elder Statesman

Post by Cynon »

Shizuka wrote:
pi314159 wrote:I guess Hamilton's 2013 will be like Alonso's 2008/09.


I can agree with that. 09 will be more likely, if Mercedes drops the ball like last year, 08, if they can improve over the season.
I'm expecting him to beat Rosberg by a margin as of now.


I think most would expect Hamilton to thrash Rosberg like it's nobody's business, but what about if the reverse happens? If Rosberg legitimately destroys Hamilton?
Check out the TM Master Cup Series on Youtube...
...or check out my random retro IndyCar clips.

Dr. Helmut Marko wrote: Finally we have an Australian in the team who can start a race well and challenge Vettel.
User avatar
CarlosFerreira
Posts: 4974
Joined: 02 Apr 2009, 14:31
Location: UK

Re: Jenson Button - F1s Elder Statesman

Post by CarlosFerreira »

Cynon wrote:I think most would expect Hamilton to thrash Rosberg like it's nobody's business, but what about if the reverse happens? If Rosberg legitimately destroys Hamilton?


I was given a hat I dislike a couple of Christmases ago. I will happily eat it, perhaps with some nice cream sauce.
Stay home, Colin Kolles!
User avatar
FullMetalJack
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 6270
Joined: 31 Mar 2009, 15:32
Location: Some place far away. Yes, that'll do.

Re: Jenson Button - F1s Elder Statesman

Post by FullMetalJack »

Cynon wrote:I think most would expect Hamilton to thrash Rosberg like it's nobody's business, but what about if the reverse happens? If Rosberg legitimately destroys Hamilton?


Most people said the Hamilton would thrash Button like it's nobody's business when he joined McLaren, but look what happened? Lewis did win 2 out of 3 seasons, but nowhere near as much as people thought he would.
I like the way Snrub thinks!
User avatar
CarlosFerreira
Posts: 4974
Joined: 02 Apr 2009, 14:31
Location: UK

Re: Jenson Button - F1s Elder Statesman

Post by CarlosFerreira »

redbulljack14 wrote:
Cynon wrote:I think most would expect Hamilton to thrash Rosberg like it's nobody's business, but what about if the reverse happens? If Rosberg legitimately destroys Hamilton?


Most people said the Hamilton would thrash Button like it's nobody's business when he joined McLaren, but look what happened? Lewis did win 2 out of 3 seasons, but nowhere near as much as people thought he would.


True, but the last two years have convinced me Rosberg is not Championship-winning material.
Stay home, Colin Kolles!
User avatar
pi314159
Posts: 3661
Joined: 11 Aug 2012, 12:12

Re: Jenson Button - F1s Elder Statesman

Post by pi314159 »

CarlosFerreira wrote:
redbulljack14 wrote:
Cynon wrote:I think most would expect Hamilton to thrash Rosberg like it's nobody's business, but what about if the reverse happens? If Rosberg legitimately destroys Hamilton?


Most people said the Hamilton would thrash Button like it's nobody's business when he joined McLaren, but look what happened? Lewis did win 2 out of 3 seasons, but nowhere near as much as people thought he would.


True, but the last two years have convinced me Rosberg is not Championship-winning material.


Well, he beat Schumacher, but no one knows how good Schumacher still was. Rosberg is really unlucky with his teams. He joined Williams just when they stopped being a top team, and then he joined the current constructors champion - and was in the upper midfield again.
pasta_maldonado wrote:The stewards have recommended that Alan Jones learns to drive.
User avatar
FullMetalJack
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 6270
Joined: 31 Mar 2009, 15:32
Location: Some place far away. Yes, that'll do.

Re: Jenson Button - F1s Elder Statesman

Post by FullMetalJack »

CarlosFerreira wrote:
redbulljack14 wrote:
Cynon wrote:I think most would expect Hamilton to thrash Rosberg like it's nobody's business, but what about if the reverse happens? If Rosberg legitimately destroys Hamilton?


Most people said the Hamilton would thrash Button like it's nobody's business when he joined McLaren, but look what happened? Lewis did win 2 out of 3 seasons, but nowhere near as much as people thought he would.


True, but the last two years have convinced me Rosberg is not Championship-winning material.


He's probably not. He's at a similar level to Riccardo Patrese in my opinion, capable of being an occasional winner, but not a championship winner.
I like the way Snrub thinks!
User avatar
Cynon
Posts: 3518
Joined: 29 Mar 2009, 00:33
Location: Chicago, Illinois
Contact:

Re: Jenson Button - F1s Elder Statesman

Post by Cynon »

CarlosFerreira wrote:
Cynon wrote:I think most would expect Hamilton to thrash Rosberg like it's nobody's business, but what about if the reverse happens? If Rosberg legitimately destroys Hamilton?


I was given a hat I dislike a couple of Christmases ago. I will happily eat it, perhaps with some nice cream sauce.


Why do I suddenly want YouTube footage of this? :mrgreen:
Check out the TM Master Cup Series on Youtube...
...or check out my random retro IndyCar clips.

Dr. Helmut Marko wrote: Finally we have an Australian in the team who can start a race well and challenge Vettel.
Phoenix
Posts: 7986
Joined: 21 Apr 2009, 13:58

Re: Jenson Button - F1s Elder Statesman

Post by Phoenix »

Cynon wrote:
CarlosFerreira wrote:
Cynon wrote:I think most would expect Hamilton to thrash Rosberg like it's nobody's business, but what about if the reverse happens? If Rosberg legitimately destroys Hamilton?


I was given a hat I dislike a couple of Christmases ago. I will happily eat it, perhaps with some nice cream sauce.


Why do I suddenly want YouTube footage of this? :mrgreen:


I'd rather see footage of Lewis Hamilton eating humble pie should he be beaten by Rosberg :lol:
User avatar
CarlosFerreira
Posts: 4974
Joined: 02 Apr 2009, 14:31
Location: UK

Re: Jenson Button - F1s Elder Statesman

Post by CarlosFerreira »

Phoenix wrote:
Cynon wrote:
CarlosFerreira wrote:I was given a hat I dislike a couple of Christmases ago. I will happily eat it, perhaps with some nice cream sauce.


Why do I suddenly want YouTube footage of this? :mrgreen:


I'd rather see footage of Lewis Hamilton eating humble pie should he be beaten by Rosberg :lol:


Ain't gonna happen, lads. Rosberg can't cut it.
Stay home, Colin Kolles!
Phoenix
Posts: 7986
Joined: 21 Apr 2009, 13:58

Re: Jenson Button - F1s Elder Statesman

Post by Phoenix »

Sadly, it looks like that. Now if Mercedes had signed Hülkenberg alongside Hamilton they would have one hell of a driver pairing to work with. Add a car as fast as this year's model was with constant in-season development and Mercedes would be where it should have been all along.
User avatar
CarlosFerreira
Posts: 4974
Joined: 02 Apr 2009, 14:31
Location: UK

Re: Jenson Button - F1s Elder Statesman

Post by CarlosFerreira »

Phoenix wrote:Sadly, it looks like that. Now if Mercedes had signed Hülkenberg alongside Hamilton they would have one hell of a driver pairing to work with. Add a car as fast as this year's model was with constant in-season development and Mercedes would be where it should have been all along.


I do think this year's Mercedes was a dog, especially after all the botched-up exhaust development, but at least Lewis and Hulkenberg would have fought it.
Stay home, Colin Kolles!
User avatar
AndreaModa
Posts: 5806
Joined: 30 Mar 2009, 17:51
Location: Bristol, UK

Re: Jenson Button - F1s Elder Statesman

Post by AndreaModa »

Cynon wrote:
CarlosFerreira wrote:
Cynon wrote:I think most would expect Hamilton to thrash Rosberg like it's nobody's business, but what about if the reverse happens? If Rosberg legitimately destroys Hamilton?


I was given a hat I dislike a couple of Christmases ago. I will happily eat it, perhaps with some nice cream sauce.


Why do I suddenly want YouTube footage of this? :mrgreen:


I can't do that for you, but I can give you a guy eating a live giant scorpion instead! :mrgreen:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQS4iNR1lQM
I want my MTV...Simtek Ford

My Motorsport Photos

@DNPQ_
User avatar
mario
Posts: 8130
Joined: 31 Oct 2009, 17:13

Re: Jenson Button - F1s Elder Statesman

Post by mario »

CarlosFerreira wrote:
redbulljack14 wrote:
Cynon wrote:I think most would expect Hamilton to thrash Rosberg like it's nobody's business, but what about if the reverse happens? If Rosberg legitimately destroys Hamilton?


Most people said the Hamilton would thrash Button like it's nobody's business when he joined McLaren, but look what happened? Lewis did win 2 out of 3 seasons, but nowhere near as much as people thought he would.


True, but the last two years have convinced me Rosberg is not Championship-winning material.

It has to be said that, whilst the results between Hamilton and Button were much closer than expected over the previous three years, the results from 2012 are somewhat misleading.
Although Button finished the season two points behind Hamilton, it is worth considering that Hamilton had two additional DNF's in 2012 and retired from the lead of a race three times (in Singapore, Abu Dhabi and Brazil). If you consider that Hamilton could have probably picked up an additional 50-60 points, the comparison between himself and Button looks a little less flattering, although it would still be a good deal more flattering than the comparisons between the other driver pairings in the top three teams.

Phoenix wrote:Sadly, it looks like that. Now if Mercedes had signed Hülkenberg alongside Hamilton they would have one hell of a driver pairing to work with. Add a car as fast as this year's model was with constant in-season development and Mercedes would be where it should have been all along.

I would agree that, whilst Rosberg will probably beat Hamilton on occasion, the expectation seems to be that Hamilton should have the measure of Rosberg based on their respective forms in various junior series. Having Hamilton as a team mate may force Rosberg to up his game - perhaps he was a little complacent because Schumacher, for various reasons, struggled to pose a serious challenge over the full course of a season - but I would probably go with the majority view and be surprised if he managed to consistently beat Hamilton through sheer pace alone.

As for a Hamilton-Hülkenberg pairing, that could be an interesting combination if Hülkenberg could maintain a consistent, strong run of form over an entire season (since he hasn't completed two back to back seasons, it remains to be seen whether he can start a season as strongly as he finishes them). Two combative drivers backed up with a consistent rate of development could see the Mercedes team, if not battling it out with the front of the field too often, at least stand a chance of beating Lotus (and possibly Ferrari, seeing that Ferrari have been consistently struggling with wind tunnel calibration problems for the past few years and are now using Toyota's wind tunnel exclusively for 2013).
That said, I can see the logic in Mercedes's decision, though, to pair Hamilton against Rosberg rather than Hülkenberg - Hamilton and Hülkenberg would probably just drive the wheels off a car whatever its deficiencies (and there were quite a few of those on the W03 by the sounds of things), whereas Rosberg is supposed to be a more analytical driver. In that instance Hamilton, whilst potentially the more volatile driver, also has the longer proven track record and would therefore appear to be the safer bet at this particular point of time, so that would probably explain the logic behind Mercedes's current line up.
Martin Brundle, on watching a replay of Grosjean spinning:
"The problem with Grosjean is that he want to take a look back at the corner he's just exited"
Phoenix
Posts: 7986
Joined: 21 Apr 2009, 13:58

Re: Jenson Button - F1s Elder Statesman

Post by Phoenix »

You probably mean that Rosberg has the longer proven track record then? I see then... If only Hamilton was more proficient at developing a car...
User avatar
CarlosFerreira
Posts: 4974
Joined: 02 Apr 2009, 14:31
Location: UK

Re: Jenson Button - F1s Elder Statesman

Post by CarlosFerreira »

Phoenix wrote:You probably mean that Rosberg has the longer proven track record then? I see then... If only Hamilton was more proficient at developing a car...


Is the driver's input in development all that important these days? There is so little track time I'd expect it to be diminished compared to, say, the Schumacher-championship years.
Stay home, Colin Kolles!
User avatar
DanielPT
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 6126
Joined: 30 Dec 2010, 18:44
Location: Porto, Portugal

Re: Jenson Button - F1s Elder Statesman

Post by DanielPT »

CarlosFerreira wrote:
Phoenix wrote:You probably mean that Rosberg has the longer proven track record then? I see then... If only Hamilton was more proficient at developing a car...


Is the driver's input in development all that important these days? There is so little track time I'd expect it to be diminished compared to, say, the Schumacher-championship years.


And it is. But teams still consider it important, otherwise Ferrari wouldn't have hired De la Rosa.
Colin Kolles on F111, 2011 HRT challenger: The car doesn't look too bad; it looks like a modern F1 car.
Phoenix
Posts: 7986
Joined: 21 Apr 2009, 13:58

Re: Jenson Button - F1s Elder Statesman

Post by Phoenix »

AndreaModa wrote:
I can't do that for you, but I can give you a guy eating a live giant scorpion instead! :mrgreen:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQS4iNR1lQM


God, this is the most disgusting video someone's ever posted in this forum. I feel sick :x
User avatar
mario
Posts: 8130
Joined: 31 Oct 2009, 17:13

Re: Jenson Button - F1s Elder Statesman

Post by mario »

DanielPT wrote:
CarlosFerreira wrote:
Phoenix wrote:You probably mean that Rosberg has the longer proven track record then? I see then... If only Hamilton was more proficient at developing a car...


Is the driver's input in development all that important these days? There is so little track time I'd expect it to be diminished compared to, say, the Schumacher-championship years.


And it is. But teams still consider it important, otherwise Ferrari wouldn't have hired De la Rosa.

Curiously, De La Rosa's input is being sought mainly for Ferrari's "driver in the loop" simulation program rather than on track testing due to the ever tighter restrictions on testing.

Phoenix, the point about proven track records applies to both drivers (since Rosberg and Hamilton are the 6th and 7th most experienced drivers on the grid respectively, with Hamilton only slightly behind Rosberg in terms of number of starts). Either way, both drivers have completed about three times as many races and have not had the break in career that Hulkenberg had to endure, so it is easier to compare the long term performance and assess the future potential of both of those drivers as against that of Hulkenberg.

As to the question of the influence that a driver can have on developing a car, whilst there is still room for a driver to help develop a car (Williams and Cosworth both commented that Rubens had been quite valuable to them when developing their cars and engines respectively), the monitoring systems that are now in place in the cars has diminished the relative role of the driver, and sometimes supplanted them altogether. It's not unheard of for a driver to have gone out on track, requested set up changes over the radio and had their requests countermanded by the team - for example, requesting a front roll bar change and instead being instructed to modify the differential setting.

That is not to say that the drivers are completely incapable of influencing how a car is developed - they can perhaps push for certain handling traits (such as, say, a slight modification to the suspension geometry), which will in turn influence how a car may develop, but teams will override their drivers if they feel they are getting more performance elsewhere. That is especially the case when you consider how dominant aerodynamics are, an area where the driver could probably describe how they are affecting the handling but may not be able to offer any remedy to the problem.
Consider, for example, the fact that Red Bull overrode Vettel's objections to the exhaust configuration on the RB8 - they made it clear that they considered the ducted design that featured on the car, and which Webber preferred, had more development potential; to a certain extent, Vettel had to adapt to their design rather than have the team adapt their design to Vettel.
Martin Brundle, on watching a replay of Grosjean spinning:
"The problem with Grosjean is that he want to take a look back at the corner he's just exited"
User avatar
Divina_Galica
Posts: 164
Joined: 21 Jan 2013, 16:05

Re: Jenson Button - F1s Elder Statesman

Post by Divina_Galica »

Jensen is on 49 podiums and 999 points so hopefully another couple of landmarks in Australia

DG
User avatar
Divina_Galica
Posts: 164
Joined: 21 Jan 2013, 16:05

Re: Jenson Button - F1s Elder Statesman

Post by Divina_Galica »

mario wrote:Although Button finished the season two points behind Hamilton, it is worth considering that Hamilton had two additional DNF's in 2012 and retired from the lead of a race three times (in Singapore, Abu Dhabi and Brazil). If you consider that Hamilton could have probably picked up an additional 50-60 points, the comparison between himself and Button looks a little less flattering, although it would still be a good deal more flattering than the comparisons between the other driver pairings in the top three teams.


Agree that Lewis lost a lot of points but Jensen also lost a probable second in Italy due to fuel pressure problems, missed Q3 in USA due to car letting him down, and missed out on a possible win in China due to a botched pitstop that left him on a load of traffic and thus not able to catch Rosberg.

Admittedly not as many points lost as Lewis, and he did suffer from some nightmare weekends, but that would close the gap in 2012 back up again a bit

DG
User avatar
dr-baker
Posts: 15508
Joined: 29 Mar 2009, 17:30
Location: Here and there.

Re: Jenson Button - F1s Elder Statesman

Post by dr-baker »

Welcome to the forums Davina! Assuming you're a Jenson Button fan then? If so, an even bigger welcome from me!
watka wrote:I find it amusing that whilst you're one of the more openly Christian guys here, you are still first and foremost associated with an eye for the ladies!
dinizintheoven wrote:GOOD CHRISTIANS do not go to jail. EVERYONE ON FORMULA ONE REJECTS should be in jail.
MCard LOLA
User avatar
Divina_Galica
Posts: 164
Joined: 21 Jan 2013, 16:05

Re: Jenson Button - F1s Elder Statesman

Post by Divina_Galica »

dr-baker wrote:Welcome to the forums Davina! Assuming you're a Jenson Button fan then? If so, an even bigger welcome from me!


Thanks, yes I think Jenson is definitely in the top 5 current drivers. Hope McLaren produce a decent car this year and he can surprise some people

DG
Post Reply