2013 Silly Season Thread

[Yannick]

Sad to see Glock leave F1. Here's hoping he can either get the Force 1ndia seat or a good drive in DTM.

Now there's a drive at Virgin Manor, where is Narain when you need him the most?

[Divina_Galica]

.
As for the question of Marussia's long term survival, to be honest I am not entirely sure whether they will last that much longer either - we know that FOM are moving to cut off payments to them (they seem to want to restrict the cut of the TV revenue that the teams gets to just the top 10 teams), and their latest accounts have shown that the team is already heavily in debt and was running at a loss in their last set of accounts. Add to that the loss of Pic to Caterham - although that does seem to be being offset by Chilton's arrival - and things are not looking great, unless they can get some serious sponsorship leverage behind themselves.

If that does happen, could we only see 10 teams in 2013?

I think we'll see all eleven teams in 2013, but I very much doubt we'll have 11 teams - certainly not the same 11 teams - in 2014.

I can't see any new team replacing a current one. The barrier to entry is so high now that the budget capping was thrown out

DG

[mario]

Williams not be in great health, given their dependence on Maldonado's sponsorship, but at the same time you get the sense that Sir Frank would rather shut the team down than let the FIA impose a budget cap, and the opinion seems to be shared by several other outfits.

Actually, Williams was one of the few teams who were willing to run the budget cap seeing as they were not a part of Formula Elaborate Bluff in the later stages. The bigger problem with Williams is that they, despite their tradition, are worthless in today's F1 - their political power is as powerful as Williams' legs so even if they are in favour of a cap, it just doesn't matter.

I was under the impression that Williams subsequently hardened their position on budget caps - at the very least, it seems that Williams rejected the notion of a budget cap enforced by the FIA (I recall that there was an article in Autosport a little while ago where he objected quite strongly to what he says he would have seen as an intrusion of the FIA into the organisation of the team).
Perhaps Williams object more strongly to the role of the FIA in such an agreement rather than the budget cap itself, though; however, with FOTA shorn of four members and having no legal standing within the sport, it would be hard for the teams themselves to enforce such a cap.

The FIA made a massive error demanding the new teams had to use Cosworth engines and the Xtrac gearboxes, if they'd given them more freedom we could have had some far better quality entrants because I think those demands were a major factor in which teams the FIA selected. Instead we got a hotch-potch of crack-pot ideas some which failed, others which haven't yet but probably will in a couple of years time, and that's sad when you think of what might have been.

Especially the Xtrac gearboxes, those were utter rubbish and a complete waste of time and money.

They gave me some reason why they were so bad when I went there (work experience), but I can't for the life of me remember what it was!

Hopefully it'll come to you, since I'd be interested to hear more about that. I may be mistaken, but I believe that there were reports back in 2010 that the system Xtrac used was a derivative of the system that had been developed for Williams's FW28 - it wasn't especially reliable then, and hadn't, IIRC, had that much development in the intervening period.

[Zetec]

In todays swiss newspapers there is a story about the financial situation of formula 1 teams. According to the story, there are some interesting facts:

- If the teams would have to start in Melbourne without debts, there would be only 10 cars on the grid (5 teams).
- Marussias debts are as high as $ 50 million.
- Caterham are in need for another driver bringing the same amount of money as Pic (about $ 8 million).
- Force India are in need of a pay driver for their second seat. Driver without backing will have no chance.
- Sauber are also in a tight situation. Kaltenborn suggest, that if no budget cap will be introduced, then it could be the end even for them.
- The costs for the new engines in 2014 are rumoured to be around $ 25 million.
- Collin Kolles is rumoured to be in talks for the new Force India team principal.

[roblo97]

In todays swiss newspapers there is a story about the financial situation of formula 1 teams. According to the story, there are some interesting facts:

- If the teams would have to start in Melbourne without debts, there would be only 10 cars on the grid (5 teams).
- Marussias debts are as high as $ 50 million.
- Caterham are in need for another driver bringing the same amount of money as Pic (about $ 8 million).
- Force India are in need of a pay driver for their second seat. Driver without backing will have no chance.
- Sauber are also in a tight situation. Kaltenborn suggest, that if no budget cap will be introduced, then it could be the end even for them.
- The costs for the new engines in 2014 are rumoured to be around $ 25 million.
- Collin Kolles is rumoured to be in talks for the new Force India team principal.

If the sport wants to continue, I feel drastic reforms are needed just to keep the sport going

[mario]

In todays swiss newspapers there is a story about the financial situation of formula 1 teams. According to the story, there are some interesting facts:

- If the teams would have to start in Melbourne without debts, there would be only 10 cars on the grid (5 teams).
- Marussias debts are as high as $ 50 million.
- Caterham are in need for another driver bringing the same amount of money as Pic (about $ 8 million).
- Force India are in need of a pay driver for their second seat. Driver without backing will have no chance.
- Sauber are also in a tight situation. Kaltenborn suggest, that if no budget cap will be introduced, then it could be the end even for them.
- The costs for the new engines in 2014 are rumoured to be around $ 25 million.
- Collin Kolles is rumoured to be in talks for the new Force India team principal.

If the sport wants to continue, I feel drastic reforms are needed just to keep the sport going

To be honest, most of that sounds fairly credible or, if anything, conservative (I thought that Marussia's debts were much higher than $50 million given that the team has been running at a loss from its inception) - about the only real surprise there is the suggestion that Kolles might be in talks with Force India, since I thought that he was engaged in sportscar racing now. Given Kolles's reputation for holding a desperate team together, albeit at a price, if that is true then it doesn't sound entirely promising for Force India.

Overall, though, things do not look good - if there are a number of teams whose finances are already strained under the current engine regulations, the sharp increase in engine costs for 2014 may well prove to be too much for some teams to bear. However, the teams that are suffering the most - the tail end and midfield teams - are also the ones with the least leverage (especially since some of the FIA's recent changes have watered down their powers and enhanced those of the top five teams), and whilst the arguments between Red Bull and Ferrari continue about future resource restrictions (with neither side being willing to cut back on chassis or engine development respectively), things are unlikely to improve soon.

[TomWazzleshaw]

In todays swiss newspapers there is a story about the financial situation of formula 1 teams. According to the story, there are some interesting facts:

- If the teams would have to start in Melbourne without debts, there would be only 10 cars on the grid (5 teams).
- Marussias debts are as high as $ 50 million.
- Caterham are in need for another driver bringing the same amount of money as Pic (about $ 8 million).
- Force India are in need of a pay driver for their second seat. Driver without backing will have no chance.
- Sauber are also in a tight situation. Kaltenborn suggest, that if no budget cap will be introduced, then it could be the end even for them.
- The costs for the new engines in 2014 are rumoured to be around $ 25 million.
- Collin Kolles is rumoured to be in talks for the new Force India team principal.

If the sport wants to continue, I feel drastic reforms are needed just to keep the sport going

To be honest, most of that sounds fairly credible or, if anything, conservative (I thought that Marussia's debts were much higher than $50 million given that the team has been running at a loss from its inception) - about the only real surprise there is the suggestion that Kolles might be in talks with Force India, since I thought that he was engaged in sportscar racing now. Given Kolles's reputation for holding a desperate team together, albeit at a price, if that is true then it doesn't sound entirely promising for Force India.

Overall, though, things do not look good - if there are a number of teams whose finances are already strained under the current engine regulations, the sharp increase in engine costs for 2014 may well prove to be too much for some teams to bear. However, the teams that are suffering the most - the tail end and midfield teams - are also the ones with the least leverage (especially since some of the FIA's recent changes have watered down their powers and enhanced those of the top five teams), and whilst the arguments between Red Bull and Ferrari continue about future resource restrictions (with neither side being willing to cut back on chassis or engine development respectively), things are unlikely to improve soon.

Eventually, it'll get to the point where we have to have a PPV Hell in a Cell wrestling match between Mateschitz and di Montezemolo with Whitmarsh as the Guest Referee to sort this shite out, aren't we?

[Ferrarist]

Sad to see Glock leave F1. Here's hoping he can either get the Force 1ndia seat or a good drive in DTM.

He's testing a DTM BMW, plus (fellow?) BMW works driver Dirk Müller already "welcomed him to the club".

In todays swiss newspapers there is a story about the financial situation of formula 1 teams. According to the story, there are some interesting facts:
[...]

How could this be, if Formula One draws so much revenue? Maybe the team owners should break away after all, if "someone" (It's all too confusing with FOM, CVC and FIA being involved in F1) sucks up the revenue like a sponge. But they wouldn't have Bernie Ecclestone, who negotiates the large sanctioning fees for them, and who knows if track owners are still willing to even negotiate with someone else than Ecclestone.
Cost cutting sound good and well, but it's utopian to think that one could run F1 at a GP2 budget. It's impossible, and rightfully so. As the pinnacle of auto racing, Formula One doesn't need any meddling into the market. So teams really need to look after increasing their revenues.

[Zetec]

How could this be, if Formula One draws so much revenue?

Well, I think the revenue has a tendency to find a way into Ecclestone^s pocket. Just look at his fortune. He could run 10 F1 teams for one season (with a budget of $ 100 millions each) and still have 70% of his fortune at the end of the season.
What I never understood is the fact, that there is an engine restriction. The engine specification was frozen in 2007 to keep development costs down. But, now teams are forced to use new engines 2014 onwards, who cost a fortune. And also, there was the introduction of KERS, which is also an nonsense budget-wise. KERS is optional, but if you want to be competitive, you have to spend on it.

[mario]

How could this be, if Formula One draws so much revenue?

Well, I think the revenue has a tendency to find a way into Ecclestone^s pocket. Just look at his fortune. He could run 10 F1 teams for one season (with a budget of $ 100 millions each) and still have 70% of his fortune at the end of the season.
What I never understood is the fact, that there is an engine restriction. The engine specification was frozen in 2007 to keep development costs down. But, now teams are forced to use new engines 2014 onwards, who cost a fortune. And also, there was the introduction of KERS, which is also an nonsense budget-wise. KERS is optional, but if you want to be competitive, you have to spend on it.

The teams only get about 50% of the revenue (most of the rest of that cut goes to FOM, with a small percentage going to the FIA in return for them licensing the series); most of the money FOM generates, in turn, seems to be going into the pockets of venture capitalists (Bernie still gets a healthy cut, no doubt, but there have been hints that CVC are lining up a replacement for him and he has been selling off a small proportion of his holding in FOM to other parties in recent years). CVC in particular are using FOM to service the debts of their acquisitions in other markets (especially the media sector, which hasn't always gone smoothly - their losses in the Australian media sector have been pretty heavy in recent years).

As for the question of engine freezes and development phases, that comes from the ever delicate balancing act that the FIA has to take between the manufacturers and the customer teams. The spending levels of 2007 were a lot to stomach even for the largest manufacturers - even now, Renault Sport spends about $120 million a year (according to an interview that James Allen had with a representative) - and the midfield teams were certainly not prepared to pay for an engine war (even the manufacturers realised that would be catastrophic in the long run).
However, with the wider consumer market looking to cars with downsized turbo engines for greater fuel efficiency, the manufacturers need to adapt to that consumer pressure and hope to cash in on the image and possible technological transfer opportunities if F1 also switches to downsized turbo engines. The current V8's have outlived their expediency in that respect - they were mainly more for the FIA to cap the performance of the cars - and now the manufacturers want a better return on their investment than the current engines offer, hence the push from them for turbo engines (with Renault in particular leading the push, since they have the most to gain in the public mind by their association with F1 and small capacity turbo engines). Given the investment they have to make, the manufacturers want something in return for their efforts, so inevitably the sport has to look to their concerns even if it is does in turn hurt the privateer teams who cannot offset those costs.

[pasta_maldonado]

I think the only thing to do in this situation is to just sit through it. The way things are going, teams will go bust. The grid will shrink, but F1 will bounce back again.

History has a funny knack of repeating itself. The last time this happened, back in the 50s, when colour was yet to be invented and you could buy a decent house for less that a Ford Fiesta, the situation was so bad the rules had to be opened up to F2 rules, just to get competitors into the sport. But, the sport bounced back into the 60s and 70s.

To be honest, I'm not really too worried about this. If the teams price themselves into oblivion, if CVC and FOM collapses, even if F1 is on the brink of death - there will always be someone who cares enough to step in. After great pride comes a great fall, and after a great fall comes great prosperity.

[andrew2209]

So from reading the last few pages, and a few other stories, this is what we have:

Red Bull-No problems
Ferrari-No problems
McLaren-No problems
Lotus-A few rumours circulated that they had financial issues, but they now have Coco-Cola money IIRC.
Mercedes-They have the money, but they won't wait forever for results
Sauber-Not 100% secure
Force India-Not 100% secure
Williams-More secure than Sauber and FI, but still have a opay driver
Toro Rosso-Financially secure, as long as Red Bull feel the team is viable
Caterham-Have pay driver(s)
Marussia-Financially insecure and have pay driver(s)
I do fear that, without manufacturers or indepedent privateers, we could see 3 car grids and 6-8 teams, maybe even Ferrari/Mclaren junior teams. The other fear is the FIA try and force through a budget cap, and we have a situation like 2009.

Also, I don't see why there is an attitude of 10 teams being ideal. If you have 20 drivers, and no spare cars, a large pile-up at the start could leave us with a race of 10 or less drivers.

[Ferrarist]

I do fear that, without manufacturers or indepedent privateers, we could see 3 car grids and 6-8 teams, maybe even Ferrari/Mclaren junior teams. The other fear is the FIA try and force through a budget cap, and we have a situation like 2009.

I'm very much split on this issue. I don't any meddling into a free market, but I wonder why you need a budget of 100 Million $ to do a lap time of 1:12.458 in Interlagos, when you could pretty much achieve the same lap times with a budget of 40 Million.
But at the end of the day, the FIA makes the rules. If the teams don't like them, they could very well form their own sanctioning body. If they can even find a consensus within a government body that houses Stefano Domenicali, Toto Wolff, Martin Whitmarsh, Christian Horner and whoever would join such a breakaway series.
See, that's the big advantage of hierarchical series like NASCAR. One man enables the teams to make money, but that man has the total power over the direction of the sport. If someone doesn't like that, they are free to pack their bags and leave.

Also, I don't see why there is an attitude of 10 teams being ideal. If you have 20 drivers, and no spare cars, a large pile-up at the start could leave us with a race of 10 or less drivers.

I can only talk for myself, but I find races with 26-28 participants much more exciting, especially due to the inevitable fights in the midfield.

[TomWazzleshaw]

How could this be, if Formula One draws so much revenue?

Well, I think the revenue has a tendency to find a way into Ecclestone^s pocket. Just look at his fortune. He could run 10 F1 teams for one season (with a budget of $ 100 millions each) and still have 70% of his fortune at the end of the season.
What I never understood is the fact, that there is an engine restriction. The engine specification was frozen in 2007 to keep development costs down. But, now teams are forced to use new engines 2014 onwards, who cost a fortune. And also, there was the introduction of KERS, which is also an nonsense budget-wise. KERS is optional, but if you want to be competitive, you have to spend on it.

The teams only get about 50% of the revenue (most of the rest of that cut goes to FOM, with a small percentage going to the FIA in return for them licensing the series); most of the money FOM generates, in turn, seems to be going into the pockets of venture capitalists (Bernie still gets a healthy cut, no doubt, but there have been hints that CVC are lining up a replacement for him and he has been selling off a small proportion of his holding in FOM to other parties in recent years). CVC in particular are using FOM to service the debts of their acquisitions in other markets (especially the media sector, which hasn't always gone smoothly - their losses in the Australian media sector have been pretty heavy in recent years).

To this day, how Channel 9 hasn't gone belly-up yet is a mystery that modern science will never be able to solve

[mario]

How could this be, if Formula One draws so much revenue?

Well, I think the revenue has a tendency to find a way into Ecclestone^s pocket. Just look at his fortune. He could run 10 F1 teams for one season (with a budget of $ 100 millions each) and still have 70% of his fortune at the end of the season.
What I never understood is the fact, that there is an engine restriction. The engine specification was frozen in 2007 to keep development costs down. But, now teams are forced to use new engines 2014 onwards, who cost a fortune. And also, there was the introduction of KERS, which is also an nonsense budget-wise. KERS is optional, but if you want to be competitive, you have to spend on it.

The teams only get about 50% of the revenue (most of the rest of that cut goes to FOM, with a small percentage going to the FIA in return for them licensing the series); most of the money FOM generates, in turn, seems to be going into the pockets of venture capitalists (Bernie still gets a healthy cut, no doubt, but there have been hints that CVC are lining up a replacement for him and he has been selling off a small proportion of his holding in FOM to other parties in recent years). CVC in particular are using FOM to service the debts of their acquisitions in other markets (especially the media sector, which hasn't always gone smoothly - their losses in the Australian media sector have been pretty heavy in recent years).

To this day, how Channel 9 hasn't gone belly-up yet is a mystery that modern science will never be able to solve

Because CVC is pumping in money from elsewhere in its portfolio - it's quite plausible that Channel 9 is still afloat because CVC is squeezing as much cash out of FOM as possible to pay for Channel 9's losses.

[Svenko Wankerov]

Kobayashi going to be confirmed as the new Pirelli tester.

The juicy rumors coming out of Italy has Biachi and Razia at FI this year + Ferrari engines next year.

[mario]

Kobayashi going to be confirmed as the new Pirelli tester.

The juicy rumors coming out of Italy has Biachi and Razia at FI this year + Ferrari engines next year.

Paul Hembery has already flat out denied, via Twitter, the rumour that Kobayashi will become one of their testers - he then went on to say that, unless they receive an offer of a full time seat elsewhere, di Grassi and Alguersuari will remain in their roles as test drivers for 2013.

As for Razia and Bianchi at Force India, I'd be surprised if that happened - Ferrari may be trying to wrangle a seat for Bianchi, but Force India do not seem to be satisfied at the deal Ferrari are offering them so far, whilst Razia, as far as I am aware, has no real ties with Force India and there have been no indications so far that he has been talking with any F1 teams. If these rumours are coming from the same source as the first one, I would treat them with caution.

OK, Force India could, if Ferrari did sweeten the deal enough, accept Bianchi as their second driver, but it'd probably only be grudgingly since Sutil seems to be the favoured option (as least based on the comments Mally made a little while ago). As for Di Resta, in principle Force India could sack him now, but making that sort of change at this time of year would be rather disruptive to the preparations of the team, so I would have thought his position was moderately secure for now.

[Svenko Wankerov]

Razia has real ties to $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Don't really care about Kobayashi do didn't pay attention to where the first one came from but I certainly wouldn't dismiss the FI ones.

[Faustus]

Kobayashi going to be confirmed as the new Pirelli tester.

Didn't Paul Hembery deny this and confirm Lucas di Grassi and Jaime Alguersuari yesterday?

[Svenko Wankerov]

Kobayashi going to be confirmed as the new Pirelli tester.

Didn't Paul Hembery deny this and confirm Lucas di Grassi and Jaime Alguersuari yesterday?

Yep that turned out to be bad info I read.

[mario]

Razia has real ties to $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Don't really care about Kobayashi do didn't pay attention to where the first one came from but I certainly wouldn't dismiss the FI ones.

The reason I asked was because Hembery stated that the false rumour about Kobayashi joining Pirelli came from the Italian media - you can understand, therefore, why I'd be cautious about placing any firm reliance on a report linking Razia to Force India if it was from the same publisher.

Now, I do agree that Razia probably could raise a reasonable amount of money to help smooth over negotiations with teams - however, Bruno Senna hasn't exactly been short of sponsorship (he is thought to be able to raise about $12 million) and yet Bruno's comments after leaving Williams suggest that he very much doubts he'll be on the grid in 2013.
Even though there have been rumours and speculation about the health of Force India for some time, Bianchi is still finding it hard to get a seat at Force India despite Ferrari actively weighing in on his behalf. I wouldn't totally dismiss the suggestion, but the recent comments on negotiations have suggested that money alone would probably not be enough for Razia at Force India, so overall I would have thought that the odds were against him.

If I was to pick a team that Razia was more likely to drive for in 2013, I would have thought that Caterham was more likely - he has driven for them in the past, both in GP2 (where Caterham sponsors a team) and in Formula 1 as a Friday practise test driver, and Caterham are thought to be on the lookout for a pay driver.

[AndreaModa]

Razia was one of Virgin's reserve drivers during the first part of 2010 though, so there might be a small chance of him taking Glock's place there.

[Cynon]

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-dr ... -crumbles/

What.

[DanielPT]

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-dream-over-valencia-street-circuit-crumbles/

What.

Well... Erm... Can't say I will miss it!

Meanwhile in fantasy land, Portugal and France interested in 20th slot!

[RonDenisDeletraz]

I can't see there a chance for this to happen. Also, we have a new character

[Cynon]

I can't see there a chance for this to happen. Also, we have a new character

Awesome, she trolls Schumacher.

[Yannick]

Razia was one of Virgin's reserve drivers during the first part of 2010 though, so there might be a small chance of him taking Glock's place there.

Excuse me, but may I see a larger view of that beauty of a car from your avatar picture? Thanks.

Glock to DTM: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/105269

[TomWazzleshaw]

I can't see there a chance for this to happen. Also, we have a new character

Awesome, she trolls Schumacher.

All is forgiven indeed, Fernando

[AndreaModa]

Razia was one of Virgin's reserve drivers during the first part of 2010 though, so there might be a small chance of him taking Glock's place there.

Excuse me, but may I see a larger view of that beauty of a car from your avatar picture? Thanks.

Right here!

It's much larger than the pic on FB, but there's loads on there, uploaded by our friend over in the High Resolution thread!

[S951]

latest rumour is FI to sign Kobayashi & Petrov leaving captain personality out in the cold

[Londoner]

latest rumour is FI to sign Kobayashi & Petrov leaving captain personality out in the cold

If Force India do this, they'll go very far up in my estimations. Fingers crossed this happens.

And also, that would mean Captain Hammer's favourite and least favourite drivers in the same team.

[Ed24]

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-dream-over-valencia-street-circuit-crumbles/

What.

A friend who lives next to the track says that the situation is no worse than in other years, so I would take this with a grain of salt.

[andrew2209]

Something tells me that Paul di Resta would end up a 3rd driver at McLaren or Lotus if he's not retained by Force India, which could be interesting for 2014.

[Cynon]

latest rumour is FI to sign Kobayashi & Petrov leaving captain personality out in the cold

OH HELL YES. Please be true. =D!

[James1978]

latest rumour is FI to sign Kobayashi & Petrov leaving captain personality out in the cold

Oh for the love of god, PLEASE let this happen. And I say this as someone of the same nationality as Sir Di Resta.

[LellaLombardi]

Something tells me that Paul di Resta would end up a 3rd driver at McLaren or Lotus if he's not retained by Force India, which could be interesting for 2014.

I really, really hope FI give him the flick and put Petrov and Kobayashi in. However if PDR becomes a 3rd driver we'll be treated to a whole year of how he should have the race seat and not Perez/Grosjean every time one of them makes the tiniest of mistakes

[RonDenisDeletraz]

I want this to happen so much now

[WaffleCat]

latest rumour is FI to sign Kobayashi & Petrov leaving captain personality out in the cold

PLEASE BE TRUE!That will give FI over nine thousand brownie points in my book...

...but imagine what the glass of milk will say if he does get dumped by Force India.

[Ataxia]

latest rumour is FI to sign Kobayashi & Petrov leaving captain personality out in the cold

PLEASE BE TRUE!That will give FI over nine thousand brownie points in my book...

...but imagine what the glass of milk will say if he does get dumped by Force India.

Well, I disagree entirely with what the hierarchical structure at Sahara Force India have done. I, Paul Di Resta, am the only man who better Lewis Hamilton and Sebastian Vettel in equal machinery and I think it's safe to say that I would be a multiple world champion had I ended up in a similar car to them. Clearly, Sahara Force India will endure a progressive downward spiral due to the fact that I was responsible for the majority of the technical feedback on the car which ensure that we had a strong end to the season. I'm certain that a top team will make space for me to join their ranks and beat the established opposition.

[Aerond]

PLEASE FI SIGN SENNA!!! PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE!! (Just to show the fanboy in me)