Ponderbox

The place for speaking your mind on current goings-on in F1
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mario
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Re: Ponderbox

Post by mario »

East Londoner wrote:What was the given reason for Montoya's penalty in the 2002 Malaysian Grand Prix? Truly one of the worst stewarding decisions I've ever seen.

How much of Ferrari's demolition job on the rest of the field that season was down to the sheer incompetence of the other 10 teams? Because we had Williams who wasted a shitload of pole positions, McLaren with that unreliable wreck that was the MP4-17, plus Renault and Sauber who were underwhelming and unreliable. Then we had Jordan, Jaguar and BAR, whose 2002 cars were absolute dogs, Toyota who wasted countless millions in return for two measly points, Minardi who were never real contenders anyway :| , and Arrows who closed up shop during midseason.

I don't think that a proper explanation was ever given for that penalty - you know that it was a bad decision when Schumacher was criticising the decision despite being a beneficiary of it.

As for the question of other teams wasting their potential, McLaren were hit by the fact that Ilmor were still struggling to make up the ground they lost after beryllium alloys were banned a few years earlier which showed up in the number of engine failures that the team had over the course of the year.
Williams did have the advantage of sheer power thanks to BMW - that power, added to the fact that the Michelin tyres were generally agreed to have much better performance over a single lap, partially explains why Williams were relatively successful in qualifying that year. However, that power from BMW did come at a price - the F2002 was less powerful, but made up for that with better fuel consumption and a lighter engine, which, coupled to the slightly weaker aerodynamics package of the FW24, explains why Williams tended to slip backwards in race trim.
Most of the other teams down the grid were either in a position where they didn't have the resources to compete with the top three teams (Jordan, Sauber, Arrows, Minardi), underdeveloped (Renault, with the wide angle V10 proving to be a technical dead end, or Toyota, who had only just entered the sport at the time) or underpowered (BAR). Then, of course, there was the mismanagement at Jaguar that needs no further comment...
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Re: Ponderbox

Post by Shadaza »

For reasons I can't really explain I feel Daniel Ricciardo and Jean Eric Vergne are both fantastic drivers and a step up from Buemi and Alguersuari.
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Re: Ponderbox

Post by Cynon »

Shadaza wrote:For reasons I can't really explain I feel Daniel Ricciardo and Jean Eric Vergne are both fantastic drivers and a step up from Buemi and Alguersuari.


Vergne, yes. Ricciardo... no.
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Re: Ponderbox

Post by Salamander »

Shadaza wrote:For reasons I can't really explain I feel Daniel Ricciardo and Jean Eric Vergne are both fantastic drivers and a step up from Buemi and Alguersuari.


I don't agree. They both strike me as being wholly underwhelming and just stop-gap measures for the time being.
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Re: Ponderbox

Post by Divina_Galica »

Shadaza wrote:For reasons I can't really explain I feel Daniel Ricciardo and Jean Eric Vergne are both fantastic drivers and a step up from Buemi and Alguersuari.


I don't think any of the last four Toro Rosso drivers are putting any pressure at all on Webber for the second Red Bull seat.

They might as well drop the bull logo on the STR cars and replace it with a picture of tumbleweed rolling along the pit straight.....

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Re: Ponderbox

Post by Shizuka »

BlindCaveSalamander wrote:I don't agree. They both strike me as being wholly underwhelming and just stop-gap measures for the time being.


When was the last time when the majority of the forum was waiting for a new driver to appear in F1 like Da Costa?

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14:03   RaikkonenPlsCare   There's some water in water
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Re: Ponderbox

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Has there ever been a fully Noah's ark grid?
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Re: Ponderbox

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Shizuka wrote:
BlindCaveSalamander wrote:I don't agree. They both strike me as being wholly underwhelming and just stop-gap measures for the time being.


When was the last time when the majority of the forum was waiting for a new driver to appear in F1 like Da Costa?

Well, I have been waiting patiently for exactly that since 2009. But as for the whole forum...I think everyone seems pretty psyched for Robin Frijns making his debut.

When you look back at every rookie that has made it to F1 since the forums were launched, the alumni is not a particularly impressive list of drivers.

Romain Grosjean - Well, we knew he was reasonably quick but also a bit erratic. That theme has continued into F1. But there was no real hype around him on F1 Rejects I guess.
Jaime Alguersuari - Quite a few people suspected he was too young and inexperienced to cut it at the start of his career. Which he kind of was, but he was starting to mature before getting dumped. Again, not much hype.
Kamui Kobayashi - Most of this forum loves ihm now, however, before he got his F1 shot with Toyota I don't think many people thought much of him (myself included). He seemed quite mediocre in GP2. No hype indeed.
Nico Hülkenberg - Probably more hype than any other driver on F1 Rejects. Won the GP2 title in dominant fashion. Had a stellar junior career behind him before graduating with Williams. If there was any driver that F1R was collectively looking forward to graduating to F1, it was him.
Lucas di Grassi, Karun Chandhok, Bruno Senna, Jérôme d'Ambrosio - LOLNO
Vitaly Petrov - I think it was having the novelty of a Russian F1 driver more than anything that gave him any sort of profile here.
Pastor Maldonado - I'm pretty sure we all thought he would be quite crap. And he has, apart from Barcelona of course.
Sergio Pérez - From a personal point of view, I always thought he would do quite well, but not be any kind of superstar. I think people were willing to give him a chance but weren't expecting him to make it to a top team so quicky.
Paul di Resta - A little bit of hype - which was probably caused by the man himself talking up his chances in the media. He'd at least won something before making the step up, unlike half of this list.
Daniel Ricciardo - This is an enigma I've never been able to solve. I never thought much of him, but I've heard others talking him up as a potential world champion. But there's no resounding conclusion on his ability coming from anywhere. Which leads me to conclude an overall attitude of so-so towards him.
Charles Pic - Meh. I don't think anyone cared particularly much before he made the step up with Marussia.
Jean-Éric Vergne - Another STR product, another expectation of average perfomances that match but don't exceed the car.
Jules Bianchi - I think we all expected an erratic and overall poor performance from him, given his GP2 form. However, now I think I understand why he got a place in Ferrari's driver academy...
Valtteri Bottas - The more you think about it, the more you realise he never really set the world on fire in junior categories. He just stayed with the team long enough to become a 'sensible' choice for them.
Giedo van der Garde - We expected crap from him, he has delivered crap so far. Well done on matching our expectations lad.
Esteban Gutiérrez - I think we're all just expecting a slightly slower version of Pérez with this one.
Max Chilton - Another run of the mill pay driver? Certainly, we know he's there because of his Aon sponsorship, and I don't think the board as a whole expects him to do amazing things with the car in the way Bianchi has done so far.

I think Da Costa might be the biggest young talent since Vettel to pass through the ranks to Formula 1. And of course, the F1R Forum didn't exist back then. So it could be a landmark moment for all of us.
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Re: Ponderbox

Post by Salamander »

Stramala [kostas22] wrote:I think Da Costa might be the biggest young talent since Vettel to pass through the ranks to Formula 1. And of course, the F1R Forum didn't exist back then. So it could be a landmark moment for all of us.


Yeah, him and Robin Frijns I think are the next big things to hit F1. I'm also quite eager to see Sam Bird in F1 now, since I rated him about level with Bianchi before this season.
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Re: Ponderbox

Post by Shizuka »

Stramala [kostas22] wrote:Giedo van der Garde - We expected crap from him, he has delivered crap so far. Well done on matching our expectations lad.


I laughed at vdG's description, well done :lol: Thanks for the recap!

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Re: Ponderbox

Post by Klon »

Jules Bianchi - I think we all expected an erratic and overall poor performance from him, given his GP2 form. However, now I think I understand why he got a place in Ferrari's driver academy...


I didn't. Mostly because I have not paid attention to his GP2 results but have seen his work in F3 - and that was great. Without wanting to appear like a hipster saying "I liked him before he was cool", I never doubted he could do great things. Although I am surprised that he managed to impress in a Marussia (where careers go to die).
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Re: Ponderbox

Post by DemocalypseNow »

Klon wrote:
Jules Bianchi - I think we all expected an erratic and overall poor performance from him, given his GP2 form. However, now I think I understand why he got a place in Ferrari's driver academy...


I didn't. Mostly because I have not paid attention to his GP2 results but have seen his work in F3 - and that was great. Without wanting to appear like a hipster saying "I liked him before he was cool", I never doubted he could do great things. Although I am surprised that he managed to impress in a Marussia (where careers go to die).

Maybe I didn't phrase it well - I kind of see him the same as Grosjean I suppose. You know the speed is there, it's just, before now it seems like he didn't quite know how to apply it properly, and it always got him into problems. I think many have realised good performances in F3 don't necessarily translate into great results further up the road. It's a cliche I suppose, but, Jan Magnussen is the easy example.
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Re: Ponderbox

Post by mario »

Stramala [kostas22] wrote:
Klon wrote:
Jules Bianchi - I think we all expected an erratic and overall poor performance from him, given his GP2 form. However, now I think I understand why he got a place in Ferrari's driver academy...


I didn't. Mostly because I have not paid attention to his GP2 results but have seen his work in F3 - and that was great. Without wanting to appear like a hipster saying "I liked him before he was cool", I never doubted he could do great things. Although I am surprised that he managed to impress in a Marussia (where careers go to die).

Maybe I didn't phrase it well - I kind of see him the same as Grosjean I suppose. You know the speed is there, it's just, before now it seems like he didn't quite know how to apply it properly, and it always got him into problems. I think many have realised good performances in F3 don't necessarily translate into great results further up the road. It's a cliche I suppose, but, Jan Magnussen is the easy example.

I guess that the accident that Bianchi had in pre-season testing for Force India back in 2012, where he spun the car into a wall and wrote off most of the suspension parts and a day of testing for the team, reinforced that image of "talented but erratic" - although, to be fair to Bianchi, his performance in the mid season test was much more measured by comparison. His performance in Australia and, so far, in Malaysia does seem to be challenging that perception - if he can maintain this level of performance, though, he may well manage to overturn those perceptions of him quite rapidly and start putting a few midfield drivers (or perhaps even further up the grid) under pressure for their seats.
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Re: Ponderbox

Post by Divina_Galica »

Stramala [kostas22] wrote:Max Chilton - Another run of the mill pay driver? Certainly, we know he's there because of his Aon sponsorship, and I don't think the board as a whole expects him to do amazing things with the car in the way Bianchi has done so far.


I'm certainly not arguing that Chilton isn't paying towards the seat, but I don't recall seeing Aon advertising on the Marussia and they aren't on the Marussia website.

In this article Max says he is bringing sponsorship to the team but not Aon money apparently...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/formul ... boost.html

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Re: Ponderbox

Post by AndreaModa »

Yeah, there's no Aon money going to Marussia at all at the moment. Either Chilton is paying for the drive out of his own pocket, or he has a couple of backers that we're not aware of. He could be sponsored by Antler, the luggage company as their logo is new on the car this year on the nose, but aside from that I'm struggling to think of any new sponsors on the car that could be related to him.
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Re: Ponderbox

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Does anyone else think that the dapper young chap in the Dolmio sauce ad looks suspiciously like a puppet version of Fernando Alonso?
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Re: Ponderbox

Post by James1978 »

Here's something I was wondering after today's race - if Webber had wanted to emulate his countryman Alan Jones at the 1981 Brazilian GP and not gone to the podium becuase he was pissed off at his teammate disobeying team instructions, would there have been any sanction against him for that? I don't know if there's been any sort of rule change regarding that matter between 1981 and now!!
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Re: Ponderbox

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James1978 wrote:Here's something I was wondering after today's race - if Webber had wanted to emulate his countryman Alan Jones at the 1981 Brazilian GP and not gone to the podium becuase he was pissed off at his teammate disobeying team instructions, would there have been any sanction against him for that? I don't know if there's been any sort of rule change regarding that matter between 1981 and now!!


I think there are rules saying that podium earners are supposed to appear on the podium and go through the usual interviews, etc. I think failing to do this would result in a $5000 fine or something like that.
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Re: Ponderbox

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WeirdKerr wrote:Has there ever been a fully Noah's ark grid?

2005 USGP :lol:
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Re: Ponderbox

Post by TomWazzleshaw »

UgncreativeUsergname wrote:
WeirdKerr wrote:Has there ever been a fully Noah's ark grid?

2005 USGP :lol:


Nope, Albers managed to outqualify Karthikeyan that day :lol:
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Re: Ponderbox

Post by UncreativeUsername37 »

Wizzie wrote:
UgncreativeUsergname wrote:
WeirdKerr wrote:Has there ever been a fully Noah's ark grid?

2005 USGP :lol:


Nope, Albers managed to outqualify Karthikeyan that day :lol:

I remember all the video and such of the grid now, with the reject teammates in front of/behind each other, not alongside... how the hell did I forget that? :oops:
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Re: Ponderbox

Post by Klon »

Alright, I am currently thinking about how often the third-best car on the grid challenged for the F1 WDC. Obviously three-ways for the championship means that one of them must have had the third-best car. For this, obviously, the definition of championship battle is slightly loose.

So far I have:
...
1996 - Schumacher
1999 - Frentzen
2003 - Probably Räikkönen
2005 - Schumacher
2008 - Kubica
2010 - Either Alonso or Hamilton/Button
2012 - Alonso, Ferrari (the Ferrari never was anything below third best after the Mugello tests)
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Re: Ponderbox

Post by CoopsII »

http://www.sabotagetimes.com/sport/mala ... h-warrant/

No real F1 heritage on this site but its a good opinion piece and does raise a good question, namely:-

What if Red Bull decide they dont need Vettel to win?
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Re: Ponderbox

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Klon wrote:Alright, I am currently thinking about how often the third-best car on the grid challenged for the F1 WDC. Obviously three-ways for the championship means that one of them must have had the third-best car. For this, obviously, the definition of championship battle is slightly loose.

So far I have:
...
1996 - Schumacher
1999 - Frentzen
2003 - Probably Räikkönen
2005 - Schumacher
2008 - Kubica
2010 - Either Alonso or Hamilton/Button
2012 - Alonso, Ferrari (the Ferrari never was anything below third best after the Mugello tests)


Schumi was nowhere near in 1996. Sorry but he wasn't. :)

1997 could be a possibility as it could be argued that the Benetton and/or McLaren were at times better than the Ferrari.

Other possibilities are Senna or Prost in 1986 (more likely Senna), somebody in 1983 (as it was between Piquet in a Brabham, Prost in a Renault and two Ferrari drivers), and 1981 and 1982 had drivers from 3 or more teams in conection till at or near the very end too. 1974 too.
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Re: Ponderbox

Post by Klon »

James1978 wrote:Schumi was nowhere near in 1996. Sorry but he wasn't. :)


Yeah, I just made that list from memory and looking up the results he was a lot further away than I thought he was. My bad. :ugeek:


CoopsII wrote:No real F1 heritage on this site but its a good opinion piece and does raise a good question, namely:-

What if Red Bull decide they dont need Vettel to win?


Vettel gets released at the end of his year, goes to another Top 5 team, wins world championships for them and we finally get rid of the "lololol Vettel can only win because of Newey" nonsense. Red Bull faces a future of having world championship-level car but no championship level drivers to go with it - so it's not really going to happen.
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Re: Ponderbox

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CoopsII wrote:http://www.sabotagetimes.com/sport/malaysian-f1-how-sebastian-vettel-just-signed-his-death-warrant/

No real F1 heritage on this site but its a good opinion piece and does raise a good question, namely:-

What if Red Bull decide they dont need Vettel to win?

It's long overdue they come to this realisation. I think the only reason they'll keep him, if it all, is to keep every other team's hands off him. Vettel in a Ferrari would pose rather a large threat to Red Bull's world championship challenge.

But, frankly, they should just sack both drivers at the end of this season and go with Raikkonen/Hulkenberg for 2014.
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Re: Ponderbox

Post by Klon »

Stramala [kostas22] wrote:But, frankly, they should just sack both drivers at the end of this season and go with Raikkonen/Hulkenberg for 2014.


Hülkenberg? Of all the drivers in the midfield you would actually advise Red Bull to Hülkenberg? No surprise Scuderia Alitalia isn't going anywhere
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Re: Ponderbox

Post by GwilymJJames »

CoopsII wrote:http://www.sabotagetimes.com/sport/malaysian-f1-how-sebastian-vettel-just-signed-his-death-warrant/

No real F1 heritage on this site but its a good opinion piece and does raise a good question, namely:-

What if Red Bull decide they dont need Vettel to win?

The question is - don't they?

Let's say Red Bull decide to sack Vettel. There would be a lot of pressure on them to promote from within; otherwise serious questions might start being asked in Salzburg about the need for two F1 teams, never mind all these other drivers it's paying for. With the greatest of respect, Ricciardo, Vergne & Buemi have never looked like they might be as good as Vettel. So Red Bull fall back. Meanwhile a triple - maybe quadruple by then - world champion has just come on the market. Vettel could walk into the offices of any team he wanted, ask for a drive, and they would bend over backwards to give it to him. Red Bull would be handing another team - probably Lotus or McLaren - a massive advantage.
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Re: Ponderbox

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Klon wrote:
Stramala [kostas22] wrote:But, frankly, they should just sack both drivers at the end of this season and go with Raikkonen/Hulkenberg for 2014.


Hülkenberg? Of all the drivers in the midfield you would actually advise Red Bull to Hülkenberg? No surprise Scuderia Alitalia isn't going anywhere

When the other midfield options are Adrian Sutil, Paul di Resta, Pastor Maldonado, Valtteri Bottas, Jean-Éric Vergne, Daniel Ricciardo and Esteban Gutiérrez, then, there isn't really anyone superior to suggest. Did Hülkenberg take a dump on your front lawn Klon? It's the only reason I can think of to explain such an illogical reation.
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Re: Ponderbox

Post by Klon »

Stramala [kostas22] wrote:When the other midfield options are Adrian Sutil, Paul di Resta, Pastor Maldonado, Valtteri Bottas, Jean-Éric Vergne, Daniel Ricciardo and Esteban Gutiérrez, then, there isn't really anyone superior to suggest.


Give Pastor Maldonado the RB9 and remove Vettel from contention and he wins the championship, perhaps even easily. Maldonado is an obviously better option for one and my immediate response if I were asked which midfield driver should a top team take. Once Vergne learns to qualify he will probably be also performing at least on level with Hülkenberg and is already part of the Red Bull machine. Di Resta de facto performed on level with Hülkenberg, he only lost out to him in the points during the final races of the season and by having the misfortune of being behind Hülkenberg in the one race where virtually all top drivers failed or had brain failure (Valencia). Sutil is a better driver than Di Resta based from 2011 and the results of this season so far, therefore following the aforementioned fact makes him also a better option than Hülkenberg.

Stramala [kostas22] wrote:Did Hülkenberg take a dump on your front lawn Klon? It's the only reason I can think of to explain such an illogical reation.


No. I for my part just remember Hülkenberg's utterly unimpressive debut season and how Di Resta performed on par against him until the final races of 2012, whereas you are flashed by his Interlagos heroics - Timo Glock was also always bloody great in Singapore and despite that never was anything resembling a top-class driver. So with the goal you implied (best non-top team drivers available) my Räikkönen/Maldonado proposal would be a lot more rational than your Räikkönen/Hülkenberg one (although we ignore the inherent issue of Räikkönen losing performance because he would end up being unhappy very quickly at RBR) - however, if we look at another goal (best non-top team driver and a good #2 driver) then you have reason on your side and I have missed the point of this exercise, however I doubt that.
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Re: Ponderbox

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Klon wrote:
Stramala [kostas22] wrote:When the other midfield options are Adrian Sutil, Paul di Resta, Pastor Maldonado, Valtteri Bottas, Jean-Éric Vergne, Daniel Ricciardo and Esteban Gutiérrez, then, there isn't really anyone superior to suggest.


Give Pastor Maldonado the RB9 and remove Vettel from contention and he wins the championship, perhaps even easily. Maldonado is an obviously better option for one and my immediate response if I were asked which midfield driver should a top team take. Once Vergne learns to qualify he will probably be also performing at least on level with Hülkenberg and is already part of the Red Bull machine. Di Resta de facto performed on level with Hülkenberg, he only lost out to him in the points during the final races of the season and by having the misfortune of being behind Hülkenberg in the one race where virtually all top drivers failed or had brain failure (Valencia). Sutil is a better driver than Di Resta based from 2011 and the results of this season so far, therefore following the aforementioned fact makes him also a better option than Hülkenberg.


Maldonado? Can't agree on you there, Klon. I think Maldonado still lacks the consistency to mount a serious championship charge. He would win the necessary races but DNFing in the others would prove costly.
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Re: Ponderbox

Post by Klon »

DanielPT wrote:Maldonado? Can't agree on you there, Klon. I think Maldonado still lacks the consistency to mount a serious championship charge. He would win the necessary races but DNFing in the others would prove costly.


Well, I think his consistency would improve in a top car. His DNFs come from two sources, as far as I can tell:
+ he overdrives his car and ends up beaching it or causing a mechanical failure
+ he gets involved in midfield battles and tries to hard to improve his track position resulting in accidents.
Now if you give him a car such as the Red Bull which can be put on pole position on a regular basis, the second issue stops because well, you battle on-track only for the first five laps or so before you are either far enough away to not be challenged or for the different strategies to come into play to make on-track battles less risky (if you fight for the win against one or two guys you know whether you can afford to let them pass you for now or not, in the midfield you defend your position against four or five guys at the very least who all have varying strategies so you are usually best off sticking to your place or improving your position no matter what). Overdriving a Red Bull is also not necessary, therefore reducing the risk of the first point.

However, I could very well be overrating Maldonado here. It's not like I don't have a track record of overestimating drivers. :lol:
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Re: Ponderbox

Post by DanielPT »

By the way, Klon, what are the German press saying about the Red-Finger-Bull-gate?
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Re: Ponderbox

Post by Klon »

DanielPT wrote:By the way, Klon, what are the German press saying about the Red-Finger-Bull-gate?


I have not read too many German sources yet but most are just seeing this as another act in the Webber/Vettel drama - they don't claim Vettel's actions as utter evil but they most certainly don't applaude them either.
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Re: Ponderbox

Post by CoopsII »

I clocked a German sports headline earlier, Bild online I think. The word 'Stinkefinger' stood out :lol:
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Re: Ponderbox

Post by Zetec »

In swiss-newspaper (Vettel living in Switzerland) Webber gets all the bashing for showing him the "stinkefinger". And they find it quite lovely, that Vettel was celebrating his victory with his finger! :lol:
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Re: Ponderbox

Post by girry »

next RBR driver? I'm surprised Stramala has ignored the widely-rumoured possibility of having a certain Portuguese driver handed an attempt towards the end of the season and possibly even making an impression; in fact, this Webber situation might tempt them hurry even more with it...
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Re: Ponderbox

Post by DemocalypseNow »

giraurd wrote:next RBR driver? I'm surprised Stramala has ignored the widely-rumoured possibility of having a certain Portuguese driver handed an attempt towards the end of the season and possibly even making an impression; in fact, this Webber situation might tempt them hurry even more with it...

I think RBR would want a more experienced lineup, and send Da Costa to STR first. But it would be nice to see him given a top car right from the get-go like Hamilton in 2007.
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Re: Ponderbox

Post by the Masked Lapwing »

Klon wrote:
DanielPT wrote:By the way, Klon, what are the German press saying about the Red-Finger-Bull-gate?


I have not read too many German sources yet but most are just seeing this as another act in the Webber/Vettel drama - they don't claim Vettel's actions as utter evil but they most certainly don't applaude them either.


Whereas in Australia, everyone is bashing Vettel even if they've never heard of F1 before. It's quite funny, actually :lol:
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Re: Ponderbox

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the Masked Lapwing wrote:Whereas in Australia, everyone is bashing Vettel even if they've never heard of F1 before. It's quite funny, actually :lol:

Of course, there are vested interests there...if Vettel gets canned, it opens a door for Ricciardo getting promoted!*
*Not really, but I am sure there are some Aussies naive enough to believe that is actually possible.
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