The 2013 tyres: engineered racing?

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The 2013 tyres: engineered racing?

Post by CarlosFerreira »

I've been puzzling with regards to the tyre situation for this year. The softer rubber has been consistently too soft - it was so in Australia, less so in Malaysia, and now again in China the tyres are visibly coming apart after a few laps. Drivers with different styles and cars, such as Hamilton and Button, have both complained VERY LOUDLY that the tyres were no good. Funny enough, here's what Pirelli's Paul Hembery had to say about it:

PaulHembery wrote:But Pirelli motorsport chief Paul Hembery said the soft tyre was doing exactly what it was supposed to.

"If the medium did the same then I'd be concerned, but it doesn't," he said.

"It's a qualifying tyre. It'll be a bit like Melbourne I guess where the top teams are going to be forced to qualify on the softer tyre because it's such a performance advantage and within the first 10 laps they are going to have to pit.

"Some of the Q2 teams might opt to start on the medium tyre and try and gain some track position whilst the first 10 cars drop in.


Welcome to enforced racing: the top 10 qualifiers WILL be forced to stop early and fall into the pack, who will be back there in the only tyre that works. Later in the race, there will be a further set of dancing chairs. This was decided further up, probably between the FIA, FOM and Pirelli.

Forget about DRS - this is what engineered racing is. What do people think? Do we dislike the racing being engineered, or do we dislike the early 2000s snorefests even more?
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Re: The 2013 tyres: engineered racing?

Post by CoopsII »

CarlosFerreira wrote:Do we dislike the racing being engineered, or do we dislike the early 2000s snorefests even more?

The trouble is people like me, and perhaps others, didnt really have a problem with the snorefest seasons because we were watching what we wanted to watch, F1 cars going fast and they were always Williams' then McLarens or Ferraris AND THATS IT!. However, people like me dont really count which is why we now have these new Michael-Bay-Hi-Res-Overtake-athons which for the casual viewers are an improvement.
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Re: The 2013 tyres: engineered racing?

Post by DanielPT »

Well, like I said the in the Chinese GP thread, I am not against a qualifying tyre, if that is what Pirelli wishes. What I have a beef with is that stupid rule who forces the top-10 to start on those wrecked tyres. Also, the two type of tyres per race rule doesn't make sense any more too. Yes, it is a bit sad to see this degree of manipulation and yes, I would prefer back to 2000's to be honest. At least the racing was purer and more honest (Although without the freak idea of grooved tyres).
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Re: The 2013 tyres: engineered racing?

Post by Shizuka »

CoopsII wrote:because we were watching what we wanted to watch


Including unreliability, which is almost non-existent today...

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Re: The 2013 tyres: engineered racing?

Post by Aerond »

I particularly love how F1 is doing regarding tyres now; races are exciting and interesting to watch and there's usually action all across the field. I think, whatever it happens, there's always someone unhappy with it. Races are nowadays way better than 10 years ago, deal with it.
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Re: The 2013 tyres: engineered racing?

Post by eytl »

I guess it comes back to what I've written in the past ... is this style of racing too artificial?

I think that, in principle, having two compounds to choose from is a good idea. As is the fundamental idea that, in theory, you have a choice whether to run your race as a "tortoise" or as a "hare", hence spicing things up because there's the possibility of some strategic variety. I mean, that kind of theory worked well in the 1980s, say. But there are some other developments / realities in this day and age which mean that that concept isn't as effective anymore:

(1) Bringing an option compound which is too soft is not a great idea. Although in the past Bridgestone in particular erred in making tyres that were just too durable, erring in the opposite direction isn't the answer either. Two wrongs don't make a right. If one is meant to be essentially a qualifying tyre, and the other a race tyre, doesn't that make a mockery of the two-compounds-per-race rule?

(2) I agree with DanielPT. By forcing the top 10 to start on their Q3 tyres, you're immediately limiting the amount of strategic variety. Why can't you let everyone in the top 10 choose? You might get 5 starting on one compound and 5 starting on another.

(3) Computer simulations mean that, based on data gained in free practice, teams can work out an "optimal" strategy. In the past, when some chose to be tortoises and others chose to be hares, it was more of a calculated gamble. Now, why gamble when you can plug some numbers into a computer and it'll tell you what the best strategy is? Why would you bother then trying something different?

(4) Similarly, constant radio communication which is even more sophisticated than previous decades - where teams now give drivers target lap times like in Sepang. Can you imagine that happening in the past? No - what would happen was that someone like a Mansell might decide to just go hell for leather, of his own choice, and decide to pit mid-race when he felt his tyres going off. Someone like Prost might choose to nurse his tyres, but he was in full control of his lap speed and it was up to his skill to judge whether he was nursing his rubber sufficiently.

(5) I know it's controversial, but pit lane speed limits. Even if you take a "hare" approach you're still needing to conserve to a certain extent. You don't want to have to make six stops (leaving aside the fact that limited tyre sets means you couldn't do this anyway) because the time it takes to pit is prohibitive.

(6) As Shizuka says, there was more unreliability in the past. A "hare" approach in the past had the risk of over-stressing all components of your car. Now that's not a concern any more.

All I'm saying is, using the concept of two compounds and forcing drivers to use both per race isn't a bad idea. In fact, in theory it's a good one. But the way the tyres are this year, and some of the other factors I've mentioned, mean that really everyone will end up doing pretty much the same thing, you won't have half the field going out on a limb, which kind of defeats the whole purpose. I think what you had in Melbourne will be the exception this year, and Sepang will turn out to be more like the norm.
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Re: The 2013 tyres: engineered racing?

Post by pasta_maldonado »

I think the perfect situation would be to bring the two most suitable compounds for the race, along with one compound softer to act as a qualifying tyre (or in the case of SS and S, one harder to go further in the race). Given that the best strategy usually involves running both compounds, don't force the teams into running both, and make the tyre limit for the whole weekend rather than specific limits for each session. For teams that muck up their selections and have to use extra set of tyres than allocated for the whole weekend, apply a fine for each set used or dock points from the team. However, the qualifying tyre would be limited to just 2 sets, enabling two quick runs in quali, a quick run in quali and a lightning stint in the race, or two lightning stints in the race if the team so wished. This would also abolish the stupid drivers must start on their tyres from Q3.

But of course, common sense isn't available to anyone with any power in F1.
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Re: The 2013 tyres: engineered racing?

Post by mario »

CarlosFerreira wrote:I've been puzzling with regards to the tyre situation for this year. The softer rubber has been consistently too soft - it was so in Australia, less so in Malaysia, and now again in China the tyres are visibly coming apart after a few laps. Drivers with different styles and cars, such as Hamilton and Button, have both complained VERY LOUDLY that the tyres were no good. Funny enough, here's what Pirelli's Paul Hembery had to say about it:

PaulHembery wrote:But Pirelli motorsport chief Paul Hembery said the soft tyre was doing exactly what it was supposed to.

"If the medium did the same then I'd be concerned, but it doesn't," he said.

"It's a qualifying tyre. It'll be a bit like Melbourne I guess where the top teams are going to be forced to qualify on the softer tyre because it's such a performance advantage and within the first 10 laps they are going to have to pit.

"Some of the Q2 teams might opt to start on the medium tyre and try and gain some track position whilst the first 10 cars drop in.


Welcome to enforced racing: the top 10 qualifiers WILL be forced to stop early and fall into the pack, who will be back there in the only tyre that works. Later in the race, there will be a further set of dancing chairs. This was decided further up, probably between the FIA, FOM and Pirelli.

Forget about DRS - this is what engineered racing is. What do people think? Do we dislike the racing being engineered, or do we dislike the early 2000s snorefests even more?

There is also a certain amount of influence from the teams on the tyre design too which has to be taken into consideration. From the point of view of a midfield team like, say, Sauber or Force India, the current situation is heavily to their advantage - with the performance gaps between the teams shrinking due to the tightness of the regulations, it only takes a small set up mistake from a major team for them to suddenly find themselves much higher up the running order than was ever possible under the Bridgestone era. Indeed, most of their best results have come under the current era precisely because they can run different strategies and exploit the problems the larger teams have, which has considerably raised their profiles and therefore potential attractiveness to sponsors, especially in 2012.

In the Bridgestone era, the durability and ultra-wide operating window meant that the top teams could comfortably run flat out and not care that much about strategy because the tyres compensated for that - it also accentuated performance differences quite sharply, because it meant that the top teams could ensure that they remained there. Now, the fact that the larger teams are effectively being dropped back into the pack creates opportunities for the midfield teams in terms of strategy, particularly if they can run a reverse strategy to the top teams, and, as you say, also creates a certain amount of artificial excitement through those major teams having to pass the midfield pack.

eytl wrote:(4) Similarly, constant radio communication which is even more sophisticated than previous decades - where teams now give drivers target lap times like in Sepang. Can you imagine that happening in the past? No - what would happen was that someone like a Mansell might decide to just go hell for leather, of his own choice, and decide to pit mid-race when he felt his tyres going off. Someone like Prost might choose to nurse his tyres, but he was in full control of his lap speed and it was up to his skill to judge whether he was nursing his rubber sufficiently.

Part of the problem, though, is that to a certain extent the importance of the drivers style has been partially reduced in some areas - with the tyres designed to thermally degrade rather than wear out, the driver himself has a more limited influence in controlling tyre wear as now the amount of energy going into the tyres is the larger problem, one which is aggravated in the higher speed parts of the track.
That said, to a certain extent the idea of driving to a target time is not exactly new - instances like Schumacher in the 1998 Hungarian GP, where Ross was providing him with target stint times between stops, are perhaps some of the better known examples. Going further back in time to the turbo era, IIRC Mansell talked quite a bit about how the engineers and drivers would plan, fairly methodically, when they would push and when they'd conserve fuel in the races, plans which did, to a certain extent, involve driving to target times.

pasta_maldonado wrote:I think the perfect situation would be to bring the two most suitable compounds for the race, along with one compound softer to act as a qualifying tyre (or in the case of SS and S, one harder to go further in the race). Given that the best strategy usually involves running both compounds, don't force the teams into running both, and make the tyre limit for the whole weekend rather than specific limits for each session. For teams that muck up their selections and have to use extra set of tyres than allocated for the whole weekend, apply a fine for each set used or dock points from the team. However, the qualifying tyre would be limited to just 2 sets, enabling two quick runs in quali, a quick run in quali and a lightning stint in the race, or two lightning stints in the race if the team so wished. This would also abolish the stupid drivers must start on their tyres from Q3.

But of course, common sense isn't available to anyone with any power in F1.

The thing is, Pirelli has said that it doesn't want to do that because of the costs involved in having to bring additional sets of tyres solely for qualifying - costs that it would pass onto the teams, who, as we have heard in the past, are not keen on having to foot that bill either. With few tyre manufacturers keen to return to F1 - we've seen Bridgestone, Michelin and Goodyear all move elsewhere - Pirelli is in an unusually strong position because there is no substantial threat right now to their contract, so to a certain extent they can do what they think is best for them rather than what is best for the sport.
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Re: The 2013 tyres: engineered racing?

Post by CarlosFerreira »

I think most people will have read Webber's take on the tyres already, but here it is anyway:

Mark Webber wrote:It will all look good in the first five or six laps, having everyone fighting, but it's a little bit WWF at the moment," said Webber, referring to the former name of the World Wrestling Entertainment series.

Webber also reckoned that the tyres were so sensitive that there was little chance of actually being able to race with them, even if the soft tyre was used for the final stint when cars had less fuel on board.

"[Adrian] Sutil tried that in Melbourne and Pirelli said that there were indications that the race fell apart for him because he tried to race people," he said.

"Whatever fuel load you have got in the car, if you race people, you are in trouble. So just don't race, put the tyre on and just try and get home."
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Re: The 2013 tyres: engineered racing?

Post by go_Rubens »

CarlosFerreira wrote:I think most people will have read Webber's take on the tyres already, but here it is anyway:

Mark Webber wrote:It will all look good in the first five or six laps, having everyone fighting, but it's a little bit WWF at the moment," said Webber, referring to the former name of the World Wrestling Entertainment series.

Webber also reckoned that the tyres were so sensitive that there was little chance of actually being able to race with them, even if the soft tyre was used for the final stint when cars had less fuel on board.

"[Adrian] Sutil tried that in Melbourne and Pirelli said that there were indications that the race fell apart for him because he tried to race people," he said.

"Whatever fuel load you have got in the car, if you race people, you are in trouble. So just don't race, put the tyre on and just try and get home."

But F1 is about racing. If the drivers can't or will not race, what is the point of watching a motor race?
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Re: The 2013 tyres: engineered racing?

Post by mario »

CarlosFerreira wrote:I think most people will have read Webber's take on the tyres already, but here it is anyway:

Mark Webber wrote:It will all look good in the first five or six laps, having everyone fighting, but it's a little bit WWF at the moment," said Webber, referring to the former name of the World Wrestling Entertainment series.

Webber also reckoned that the tyres were so sensitive that there was little chance of actually being able to race with them, even if the soft tyre was used for the final stint when cars had less fuel on board.

"[Adrian] Sutil tried that in Melbourne and Pirelli said that there were indications that the race fell apart for him because he tried to race people," he said.

"Whatever fuel load you have got in the car, if you race people, you are in trouble. So just don't race, put the tyre on and just try and get home."

It's kind of interesting that Webber brings up the comparison with Sutil in Australia, because if you look at Sutil's times in that final stint, he put in two very fast laps, four very slow laps and then, for the final four laps, was lapping more or less at the same pace as most of those around him. It kind of reminds me of the 2009 GP when Bridgestone also brought its super soft compound for that race - much as Rosberg did in that race, Sutil seems to have really hammered the tyres in the first two opening laps of that stint and grained them so badly that they were useless for the next few laps.
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Re: The 2013 tyres: engineered racing?

Post by Fetzie »

"It's a qualifying tyre. It'll be a bit like Melbourne I guess where the top teams are going to be forced to qualify on the softer tyre because it's such a performance advantage and within the first 10 laps they are going to have to pit.


If it is a qualifying tyre, then get rid of the "start on the quali tyre" rule. Have a super-super soft for the single flying qualifying laps, two race tyres of a different degree and no restrictions on who can use what.

Or you could have the qualifying tyre, and open season on the other tyres. If a team wants a slower race with less pit-lane time they could take the med+hard set, somebody else could take a super-soft+hard for a long/short/long session, a team that trusts its tyre wear or doesn't mind doing 4+ stops could run super-soft/soft or super-soft/medium.

In addition, disqualify anybody that does not clock a sub-107% time in every qualifying session they are allowed to compete in.
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Re: The 2013 tyres: engineered racing?

Post by Salamander »

go_Rubens wrote:
CarlosFerreira wrote:I think most people will have read Webber's take on the tyres already, but here it is anyway:

Mark Webber wrote:It will all look good in the first five or six laps, having everyone fighting, but it's a little bit WWF at the moment," said Webber, referring to the former name of the World Wrestling Entertainment series.

Webber also reckoned that the tyres were so sensitive that there was little chance of actually being able to race with them, even if the soft tyre was used for the final stint when cars had less fuel on board.

"[Adrian] Sutil tried that in Melbourne and Pirelli said that there were indications that the race fell apart for him because he tried to race people," he said.

"Whatever fuel load you have got in the car, if you race people, you are in trouble. So just don't race, put the tyre on and just try and get home."

But F1 is about racing. If the drivers can't or will not race, what is the point of watching a motor race?


Yeah. I've defended Pirelli's tyres in the past, but I think maybe they've gone a bit too far this year, especially with the tyre choices. We're looking at what, half a dozen laps maximum on the option tyre? That's pretty ridiculous.
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Re: The 2013 tyres: engineered racing?

Post by mario »

Fetzie wrote:
"It's a qualifying tyre. It'll be a bit like Melbourne I guess where the top teams are going to be forced to qualify on the softer tyre because it's such a performance advantage and within the first 10 laps they are going to have to pit.


If it is a qualifying tyre, then get rid of the "start on the quali tyre" rule. Have a super-super soft for the single flying qualifying laps, two race tyres of a different degree and no restrictions on who can use what.

Or you could have the qualifying tyre, and open season on the other tyres. If a team wants a slower race with less pit-lane time they could take the med+hard set, somebody else could take a super-soft+hard for a long/short/long session, a team that trusts its tyre wear or doesn't mind doing 4+ stops could run super-soft/soft or super-soft/medium.

In addition, disqualify anybody that does not clock a sub-107% time in every qualifying session they are allowed to compete in.

The comment about having an "open season" on the tyres is interesting, because, when we had that in the past, although you would occasionally get a driver or team that might gamble on an unusual strategy (i.e. ultra-long stints or a non stop race, or, at the other, and somewhat rarer, extreme of ultra short high speed stints on soft compounds), generally the teams tended to converge towards one particular compound for a race weekend anyway.
Whilst there may be multiple options, often there tends to be an optimal situation where one particular compound has the right balance between durability and speed that makes it the preferred choice. The extreme strategy choices tend to only really crop up at more unusual circuits where something else makes those choices viable (unusually high or low tyre wear or being very difficult to pass at, usually) - indeed, part of the reason for the control tyre was that the other tyre options were becoming increasingly superfluous.
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Re: The 2013 tyres: engineered racing?

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Mark Webber compares Formula 1 with Wrestling
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/106731

And the sad thing is, he is right. Formula 1 becomes more and more a show, and less a sport. And everyone keeps talking about the show, the show, the show...
It's annoying me. Of course I enjoy exciting races, but I would even prefer the mid-2000s races, if Formula 1 would become a real sport again, and not a show with desintegrating tyres, near-spec-engines, every Innovation banned at the end of the year and artificial overtaking with DRS.
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Re: The 2013 tyres: engineered racing?

Post by CarlosFerreira »

As I type this, the Chinese GP has just finished. I want to highlight something interesting: the teams that went for the monkey business of not qualifying on the fastest tyre in order to start on the prime - McLaren, Sauber,and most especially Red Bull - didn't seem to get any advantage from it. The tyres may be odd, but the "standard" strategy - qualify on the options, start as far ahead as you can - was the winner. As usual.
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Re: The 2013 tyres: engineered racing?

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I personally think this is just a case of "F1 fans never being satisfied ever." I mean, people were whining all over place about the "unbreakable Bridgestones" for years, and when we got rid of them, people whine about the "Melts-in-a-second Pirellis". Seriously, I much prefer this kind of racing with shuffling of order, different strategies, risk taking and overtakes to the bathplug "20 cars drive in a queue for two hours" racing we had beforehand.

The sad fact is that no matter what Pirelli or the teams try, people will bitch and complain. Because nothing is ever good enough and that is just the way human nature works.

And engineered or not, I much rather watch an "artificial" two hours of entertaining racing than a "legit" two hours of driving on rails and in a neat queue.

But hey, I don't have a negative comment on the subject so bathplug me right?
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Re: The 2013 tyres: engineered racing?

Post by Salamander »

DonTirri wrote:I personally think this is just a case of "F1 fans never being satisfied ever." I mean, people were whining all over place about the "unbreakable Bridgestones" for years, and when we got rid of them, people whine about the "Melts-in-a-second Pirellis". Seriously, I much prefer this kind of racing with shuffling of order, different strategies, risk taking and overtakes to the bathplug "20 cars drive in a queue for two hours" racing we had beforehand.

The sad fact is that no matter what Pirelli or the teams try, people will bitch and complain. Because nothing is ever good enough and that is just the way human nature works.

And engineered or not, I much rather watch an "artificial" two hours of entertaining racing than a "legit" two hours of driving on rails and in a neat queue.

But hey, I don't have a negative comment on the subject so bathplug me right?


Yeah, I actually agree with you for the most part. I still think the situation with the soft tyres was just ridiculous though, the most anybody really got out of them was 6 laps today. It still delivered a great race though, and I'd always take a great race with a farcical qualifying over an interesting qualifying with a more boring race.
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Re: The 2013 tyres: engineered racing?

Post by RonDenisDeletraz »

DonTirri wrote:I personally think this is just a case of "F1 fans never being satisfied ever." I mean, people were whining all over place about the "unbreakable Bridgestones" for years, and when we got rid of them, people whine about the "Melts-in-a-second Pirellis". Seriously, I much prefer this kind of racing with shuffling of order, different strategies, risk taking and overtakes to the bathplug "20 cars drive in a queue for two hours" racing we had beforehand.

The sad fact is that no matter what Pirelli or the teams try, people will bitch and complain. Because nothing is ever good enough and that is just the way human nature works.

And engineered or not, I much rather watch an "artificial" two hours of entertaining racing than a "legit" two hours of driving on rails and in a neat queue.

But hey, I don't have a negative comment on the subject so bathplug me right?


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Re: The 2013 tyres: engineered racing?

Post by LionZoo »

I don't see how the tires are making the races artificial. Everyone gets the same tires; it's how they use them that makes the difference.
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Re: The 2013 tyres: engineered racing?

Post by johnnyCarwash »

I don't think tyres are the issue here. It was an excellent tyre strategy race

but what we seem to get from these sets of regulations as highlighted in this race is that especially at the front, the overtakes are meaningless unless it's the start or the last few laps, so drivers are racing against the time rather than each other.

As enoch correctly states!

eytl wrote:(3) Computer simulations mean that, based on data gained in free practice, teams can work out an "optimal" strategy. In the past, when some chose to be tortoises and others chose to be hares, it was more of a calculated gamble. Now, why gamble when you can plug some numbers into a computer and it'll tell you what the best strategy is? Why would you bother then trying something different?

(4) Similarly, constant radio communication which is even more sophisticated than previous decades - where teams now give drivers target lap times like in Sepang. Can you imagine that happening in the past? No - what would happen was that someone like a Mansell might decide to just go hell for leather, of his own choice, and decide to pit mid-race when he felt his tyres going off. Someone like Prost might choose to nurse his tyres, but he was in full control of his lap speed and it was up to his skill to judge whether he was nursing his rubber sufficiently.



I mean the racer in Vettel would have never given up the lead to Alonso as easily as he did if he wasn't running to target laptimes...
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Re: The 2013 tyres: engineered racing?

Post by Ferrim »

If we have to have a couple of "funny" races at the beginning of the season, until the teams adapt and manage to extract performance from the tyres to be able to make the distance with 1-2 stops, then it's a fair price to pay. It happened already in 2011 and 2012, and will happen again this year (and then some people will cry foul that Pirelli have secretly hardened the tyre compounds... :roll: )
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Re: The 2013 tyres: engineered racing?

Post by Divina_Galica »

Aerond wrote:I particularly love how F1 is doing regarding tyres now; races are exciting and interesting to watch and there's usually action all across the field. I think, whatever it happens, there's always someone unhappy with it. Races are nowadays way better than 10 years ago, deal with it.


Agreed 100%.

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Re: The 2013 tyres: engineered racing?

Post by Divina_Galica »

eytl wrote:(3) Computer simulations mean that, based on data gained in free practice, teams can work out an "optimal" strategy. In the past, when some chose to be tortoises and others chose to be hares, it was more of a calculated gamble. Now, why gamble when you can plug some numbers into a computer and it'll tell you what the best strategy is? Why would you bother then trying something different?


Computer sim may help but it can often also provide too much info.

I think most of the teams analysts would have been surprised that the majority of cars outside the top 10 started on softs - which had the effect of making the race easier for those in the top 10 who qualified on the softs as there were less medium-equipped cars in the midfield that they had to pass once they had made their early stop.

You can calculate a theoretical best race strategy but you will still have to make a guess as to what the other 10 teams are going to do come the race

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Re: The 2013 tyres: engineered racing?

Post by Sublime_FA11C »

Vettel was on fire in his last stint on soft tyres. If he had just 3-4 more corners, he would have taken Hamilton for the podium.

Everyone else who was using options in the last stint (most notably Button) delivered a fast out lap, 9/10 of a fast hotlap then the tyres fell of a cliff and the times increased. But not Vettel. He did a superb job and i'm no fan of his. He demonstrated that the Option was NOT just a one lap, quali-only tyre. It damn near put him on the podium in a race where his car was not quite up to it.

IIRC he did 5 laps on the tyre and showed no signs of slowing down until the flag. The tyre set was brand spanking new, unlike Button whose were used slightly.
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Re: The 2013 tyres: engineered racing?

Post by mario »

Sublime_FA11C wrote:Vettel was on fire in his last stint on soft tyres. If he had just 3-4 more corners, he would have taken Hamilton for the podium.

Everyone else who was using options in the last stint (most notably Button) delivered a fast out lap, 9/10 of a fast hotlap then the tyres fell of a cliff and the times increased. But not Vettel. He did a superb job and i'm no fan of his. He demonstrated that the Option was NOT just a one lap, quali-only tyre. It damn near put him on the podium in a race where his car was not quite up to it.

IIRC he did 5 laps on the tyre and showed no signs of slowing down until the flag. The tyre set was brand spanking new, unlike Button whose were used slightly.

The lap times from that final stint from both drivers were interesting, but for different reasons. Excluding his outlap, Vettel's times in the final four laps were as follows: 1m36.81s, 1m37.26s, 1m38.21s, 1m40.05s. Vettel's times were actually dropping away a lot more quickly than you'd think - it was the fact that Hamilton's times dropped off from lap 53, perhaps because he had been trying to push past Kimi for the previous few laps and ended up pushing his tyres to their limits, that accentuated the rate at which Vettel closed that gap.
Button's laps, by contrast, were slower but more consistent - his last six laps on the softs were 1m40.31s, 1m41.09s, 1m40.74s, 1m40.74s, 1m40.73s, 1m38.06s, so his approach to that last stint was very different (i.e. conserve the tyres for five laps before pushing at the end and setting his best lap of the race on the final lap).
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Re: The 2013 tyres: engineered racing?

Post by DidNotQualify »

mario wrote:The lap times from that final stint from both drivers were interesting, but for different reasons. Excluding his outlap, Vettel's times in the final four laps were as follows: 1m36.81s, 1m37.26s, 1m38.21s, 1m40.05s. Vettel's times were actually dropping away a lot more quickly than you'd think - it was the fact that Hamilton's times dropped off from lap 53, perhaps because he had been trying to push past Kimi for the previous few laps and ended up pushing his tyres to their limits, that accentuated the rate at which Vettel closed that gap.


mario, do you think Vettel's final lap time might be partly explained by the traffic he and Hamilton hit and his subsequent error at turn 11? Broadly, I agree with you - while Vettel's last stint looked spectacular, he was helped by Hamilton also starting to run out of rubber, though he was still doing an OK pace after 4 laps of pushing totally flat-out.
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Re: The 2013 tyres: engineered racing?

Post by F1000X »

Casting my vote for the tires being too soft all around this year.

I understand the intention of having disparity between tire compounds, but you can't require the teams use a 'qualifying tire' in the race. More pitstops mean taking the battle off track; that isn't where it belongs. Personally (and many people disagree with me on this) I don't think the fastest pit crew should be crucial for winning a race, I think it's their job to not bathplug it up.
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Re: The 2013 tyres: engineered racing?

Post by LionZoo »

DidNotQualify wrote:
mario wrote:The lap times from that final stint from both drivers were interesting, but for different reasons. Excluding his outlap, Vettel's times in the final four laps were as follows: 1m36.81s, 1m37.26s, 1m38.21s, 1m40.05s. Vettel's times were actually dropping away a lot more quickly than you'd think - it was the fact that Hamilton's times dropped off from lap 53, perhaps because he had been trying to push past Kimi for the previous few laps and ended up pushing his tyres to their limits, that accentuated the rate at which Vettel closed that gap.


mario, do you think Vettel's final lap time might be partly explained by the traffic he and Hamilton hit and his subsequent error at turn 11? Broadly, I agree with you - while Vettel's last stint looked spectacular, he was helped by Hamilton also starting to run out of rubber, though he was still doing an OK pace after 4 laps of pushing totally flat-out.


It felt like you could pinpoint the exact moment Vettel's tires gave up the ghost. When Vettel got past the Caterham and outbraked himself, you could tell that they were past their use-by date. This was accentuated when Vettel had problem putting the power down exiting the corner onto the straight.
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Re: The 2013 tyres: engineered racing?

Post by Divina_Galica »

DidNotQualify wrote:
mario wrote:The lap times from that final stint from both drivers were interesting, but for different reasons. Excluding his outlap, Vettel's times in the final four laps were as follows: 1m36.81s, 1m37.26s, 1m38.21s, 1m40.05s. Vettel's times were actually dropping away a lot more quickly than you'd think - it was the fact that Hamilton's times dropped off from lap 53, perhaps because he had been trying to push past Kimi for the previous few laps and ended up pushing his tyres to their limits, that accentuated the rate at which Vettel closed that gap.


mario, do you think Vettel's final lap time might be partly explained by the traffic he and Hamilton hit and his subsequent error at turn 11? Broadly, I agree with you - while Vettel's last stint looked spectacular, he was helped by Hamilton also starting to run out of rubber, though he was still doing an OK pace after 4 laps of pushing totally flat-out.


Hamilton's times for the last 4 laps are 1m40.11s, 1m40.28s, 1m41.35s, and 1m41.94s, so Vettel gained over three seconds on each of the first three quoted but only two on the final lap - explained by the error at turn 11. Vettel also had to deal with the same traffic.

Question is whether Vettel could have grabbed third if he had boxed a lap earlier, or would his softs dropped off too far?

Overall we had the situation of the softs being like qualifying tyres, and every team had to run them at some point, and the end result was that there was little to choose between runnign them at the start or the end which means that we may have teams on different strategies at future races which should provide more compelling viewing

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Re: The 2013 tyres: engineered racing?

Post by mario »

Divina_Galica wrote:
DidNotQualify wrote:
mario wrote:The lap times from that final stint from both drivers were interesting, but for different reasons. Excluding his outlap, Vettel's times in the final four laps were as follows: 1m36.81s, 1m37.26s, 1m38.21s, 1m40.05s. Vettel's times were actually dropping away a lot more quickly than you'd think - it was the fact that Hamilton's times dropped off from lap 53, perhaps because he had been trying to push past Kimi for the previous few laps and ended up pushing his tyres to their limits, that accentuated the rate at which Vettel closed that gap.


mario, do you think Vettel's final lap time might be partly explained by the traffic he and Hamilton hit and his subsequent error at turn 11? Broadly, I agree with you - while Vettel's last stint looked spectacular, he was helped by Hamilton also starting to run out of rubber, though he was still doing an OK pace after 4 laps of pushing totally flat-out.


Hamilton's times for the last 4 laps are 1m40.11s, 1m40.28s, 1m41.35s, and 1m41.94s, so Vettel gained over three seconds on each of the first three quoted but only two on the final lap - explained by the error at turn 11. Vettel also had to deal with the same traffic.

Question is whether Vettel could have grabbed third if he had boxed a lap earlier, or would his softs dropped off too far?

Overall we had the situation of the softs being like qualifying tyres, and every team had to run them at some point, and the end result was that there was little to choose between runnign them at the start or the end which means that we may have teams on different strategies at future races which should provide more compelling viewing

DG

Judging by what happened with some of the other drivers who tried running the soft tyres a little earlier in the race, I think that Vettel's tyres probably would have started losing too much performance for that to work.

Hulkenberg, Vergne and Perez were able to get four moderately quick laps out of their tyres, with a similar trend in performance, earlier in the race, but when the tyres went, their times dropped off by about four seconds (and all of them immediately pitted the following lap when that happened). The only driver for whom that trend was different was Button, although, as noted before, that is probably because he took it so much easier than most of those around him.
I think that, had he had to do one more lap, given the way that Vettel's car was visibly sliding around under braking that he would have then fallen back from Hamilton quite rapidly.
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Re: The 2013 tyres: engineered racing?

Post by Vepe »

Personally I don't think the tyres are too bad, but they're not great either. The softs are, as has been already said, a bit too soft, but the mediums worked quite well IMO.

For me it seems that the 'pro-pirelli' camp thinks that the 'anti-pirelli' camp wants to bring back 2010-Bstones, which isn't true. And the 'anti-pirelli's think that the others want to see 'F-Random Lottery' or 'Campionato Manipulazione Pirelli', which also isn't true. I find myself somewhere in the middle.

But the basic complaint is that the drivers can't push without ruining the tyres. That may be true, but let's say that we have a tyre that lasts 20 laps if pushed and 25 laps driven at 75%. Will the drivers push? No, because they can eliminate one pit stop by preserving the tires. So basically the drivers won't push if there is a change of going faster by going slower. The only way of getting the drivers to go fast by going fast is a tire like 2010-Bstones. For me it seems that most of the teams are designing their cars for 2010-Bstones, which might explain why they are struggling. Well, Red Bull is 'struggling' with the tires and still leead the WDC and WCC.
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Re: The 2013 tyres: engineered racing?

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Vepe wrote:For me it seems that the 'pro-pirelli' camp thinks that the 'anti-pirelli' camp wants to bring back 2010-Bstones, which isn't true.


I consider myself in the pro-Pirelli camp, but I certainly don't think that. Only a fool would want those back, IMO.
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Re: The 2013 tyres: engineered racing?

Post by takagi_for_the_win »

DonTirri wrote:I personally think this is just a case of "F1 fans never being satisfied ever." I mean, people were whining all over place about the "unbreakable Bridgestones" for years, and when we got rid of them, people whine about the "Melts-in-a-second Pirellis". Seriously, I much prefer this kind of racing with shuffling of order, different strategies, risk taking and overtakes to the bathplug "20 cars drive in a queue for two hours" racing we had beforehand.

The sad fact is that no matter what Pirelli or the teams try, people will bitch and complain. Because nothing is ever good enough and that is just the way human nature works.

And engineered or not, I much rather watch an "artificial" two hours of entertaining racing than a "legit" two hours of driving on rails and in a neat queue.

But hey, I don't have a negative comment on the subject so bathplug me right?


To be honest, you've kinda hit the nail on the head with that.
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Re: The 2013 tyres: engineered racing?

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Vepe wrote:But the basic complaint is that the drivers can't push without ruining the tyres. That may be true, but let's say that we have a tyre that lasts 20 laps if pushed and 25 laps driven at 75%. Will the drivers push? No, because they can eliminate one pit stop by preserving the tires. So basically the drivers won't push if there is a change of going faster by going slower. The only way of getting the drivers to go fast by going fast is a tire like 2010-Bstones. For me it seems that most of the teams are designing their cars for 2010-Bstones, which might explain why they are struggling. Well, Red Bull is 'struggling' with the tires and still leead the WDC and WCC.


This.

If you want tyres that allow drivers to push 100% during the whole race distance, you want tyres that last for the whole race distance.
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Re: The 2013 tyres: engineered racing?

Post by AndreaModa »

The whole tyre thing is an interesting one. I often compare it with MotoGP, another series that has a single tyre manufacturer now.

In MotoGP, Bridgestone will bring two compounds of rubber to a race weekend, a soft and a hard. The riders have a certain amount of each, but are free to race on whatever they want. Some races will see the whole grid choose the same combination, but other times it will be different, often depending on the personal preference of the rider, because grip and feel is so much more crucial on a bike. But on top of that, riders will often mix the compounds, and run a soft front and hard rear for example. This freedom means that whilst tyre strategy isn't perhaps what it could be, it allows for multiple combinations, all of which work, and yet still provide interest. Riders on the soft might get away quicker and build an early lead, but will their rubber last out the distance, and will those on a harder compound reel them in towards the end? Without pitstops, the art of making the most of the tyres is so important in bike racing, and it is specifically where Rossi has dominated throughout his entire career. He has consistently been able to extract lap times from a bike with knackered tyres that no-one else can get near. His ride in Qatar last weekend is a classic example of that. During the years when there was Michelin and Dunlop making tyres too, it offered even more variety. In 2004 Sito Pons' Camel Honda team ran Max Biaggi on Michelins and Makoto Tamada on Bridgestones! And the thing was, no-one was complaining about costs!

Where am I going with this? Well, the way I see it, is Pirelli need to develop two or three compounds of tyre, bring two to a race weekend, set a limit on the number of tyres each driver gets to keep costs down obviously, and let them go from there. Both compounds will suit the track to a greater or lesser extent, and with restrictions removed on being forced to use both compounds, the teams are given the freedom to do what they want. Whether in this scenario you could in fact keep the "start on the tyre you qualified on" rule is something for debate, but thinking about it briefly it could probably work out quite well, even though in my opinion it's one of the worst rules in F1 today. It is essentially going back to how things were with Goodyear and their A and B compounds, etc, but really I think with a single supplier, and careful restrictions on the number of tyres available, costs would be no more than today, and teams get the freedom of choosing what they want. Button can do a one stopper on the harder tyres whilst Hamilton pounds away on a three stopper on the softer tyres without being compromised by restrictive rules and crap compounds.

Is it the answer? Hard to say, I guess going back to how things were might not sit well with people, but the days of Schumacher and Trulli trains were aero-dependent with a lack of mechanical grip with the grooved tyres. The new engines in 2014 and the slick tyres we now have will shift the balance back towards mechanical in my view, so why not take the opportunity to maximise this chance?
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Re: The 2013 tyres: engineered racing?

Post by Divina_Galica »

Ferrim wrote:
Vepe wrote:But the basic complaint is that the drivers can't push without ruining the tyres. That may be true, but let's say that we have a tyre that lasts 20 laps if pushed and 25 laps driven at 75%. Will the drivers push? No, because they can eliminate one pit stop by preserving the tires. So basically the drivers won't push if there is a change of going faster by going slower. The only way of getting the drivers to go fast by going fast is a tire like 2010-Bstones. For me it seems that most of the teams are designing their cars for 2010-Bstones, which might explain why they are struggling. Well, Red Bull is 'struggling' with the tires and still leead the WDC and WCC.


This.

If you want tyres that allow drivers to push 100% during the whole race distance, you want tyres that last for the whole race distance.


Exactly!

Only by making tyres that last for only 6 or 20 laps for the two compounds can you force teams into making strategy choices. The idea is that the teams shouldn't be able to change the car to make them last all race or just one stop as if they could they would all just one-stop on the same lap.

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Re: The 2013 tyres: engineered racing?

Post by Vepe »

BlindCaveSalamander wrote:
Vepe wrote:For me it seems that the 'pro-pirelli' camp thinks that the 'anti-pirelli' camp wants to bring back 2010-Bstones, which isn't true.


I consider myself in the pro-Pirelli camp, but I certainly don't think that. Only a fool would want those back, IMO.

Ofcourse there are people who don't think like that. I used the extremes to make the point more clear. I also think that only a fool would want them back.
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Re: The 2013 tyres: engineered racing?

Post by Divina_Galica »

AndreaModa wrote:Where am I going with this? Well, the way I see it, is Pirelli need to develop two or three compounds of tyre, bring two to a race weekend, set a limit on the number of tyres each driver gets to keep costs down obviously, and let them go from there.


So the cars wouldn't go out in FP1 & 2 and possibly just do a few single lap runs in qualifying as they would want to keep their options around tyres for the race. If you then say that they have to do "x" laps then they will all be Driving Miss Daisy to quote Jenson. Bear in mind that next season with only 5 engines for the season teams will be even less likely to want to do any more than minimal running.

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Re: The 2013 tyres: engineered racing?

Post by AndreaModa »

Divina_Galica wrote:
AndreaModa wrote:Where am I going with this? Well, the way I see it, is Pirelli need to develop two or three compounds of tyre, bring two to a race weekend, set a limit on the number of tyres each driver gets to keep costs down obviously, and let them go from there.


So the cars wouldn't go out in FP1 & 2 and possibly just do a few single lap runs in qualifying as they would want to keep their options around tyres for the race. If you then say that they have to do "x" laps then they will all be Driving Miss Daisy to quote Jenson. Bear in mind that next season with only 5 engines for the season teams will be even less likely to want to do any more than minimal running.

DG


No, of course they need enough for practice as well. Just the same amount as they have now would suffice. But on race day, give them an open house, let them experiment, or gamble on a certain strategy.

Going back to my earlier comparison with MotoGP, how about banning pitstops altogether? Two types or rubber, one softer, one harder, both will make it to the end of the race but offer different characteristics. If you fail to manage the softs properly you'll drop like a stone, but equally, the hards need to be used tactically otherwise the cars using them may be too far back. Those drivers able to extract pace in cars with worn out tyres will come to the fore and suddenly you have the most tactically astute, but also the most skilled drivers as the ones achieving success. I'd certainly like to see how that would pan out, and no I don't mean a la 2005 because you still had refuelling then, which negates the ability to manage the tyres somewhat with the changing fuel loads.

Go one step further and ban in car radios, let the drivers work out what to do themselves, seeing as they don't need to communicate when they want to pit any more, only if they've sustained damage, which would be obvious, either to the eye or in lap times. Leave the good old fashioned pit board as the sole means of communication between pitwall and driver. That would sort the men from the boys! :twisted:
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