The Sportscar and Endurance Thread

[mario]

A new LMP1 project for 2014 has been announced today:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/107567

Yes, this is excellent news for LMP1, and proving us all wrong when we thought that the new rules would lead to an exclusive factory teams club with LMP2 for the privateers. There's still the issue of customer hybrid engines, but if the chassis are being built there has to be engines coming from somewhere!

If I recall well, the regulations do allow privateer entrants to use conventional engines - they'd essentially be a continuation of the current regulations, albeit with tweaks to the fuel flow rates, and permit engines of up to 5.5L capacity IIRC (although OAK did say that they considered the regulations to be so favourable to hybrid systems that a conventional engine would probably not be competitive).

On that note, though, Racecar Engineering, in its article on the S103, has noted that the only outfits that have confirmed that they will be building new engines for the new LMP regulations are the manufacturers (i.e. Toyota, Audi and Porsche). In theory, Renault Sport may be offering their F1 turbo engine for use at Le Mans but, given that it is likely to come with a very hefty price tag, I can't see many customers for it beyond Caterham (given their partnership to revive the Alpine name, Renault Sport would probably offer them a subsidised engine deal).
Audi, a while back, were commenting that although they had considered possibly supplying customers with an engine, and possibly KERS as well, that they were unable to get the costs down to an affordable level for the privateers; Toyota also expressed the same sentiments too IIRC. At the moment, the issue of competitive powertrains is still a major issue and doesn't look like it'll be sorted out soon.

More cracking news for LMP1, as Dome look set to build their own S103 for the 2014 rules, and a toned down version for LMP2 as well!

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/107738

Things are seriously shaping up nicely for the WEC!

Nice to see Dome return to Le Mans. So we have Audi, Toyota, Porsche, Perrinn and Dome now. 5 different LMP1 cars confirmed for 2014.

Indeed. And I suspect there will be more to come as well. Not manufacturers obviously but perhaps one or two more chassis builders. Does anyone know if Lola are going to be able to put together an LMP1 package for 2014?

It's all building up nicely though, I'm definitely going to be making an appearance at a WEC race next year!

Lola are yet to confirm their post 2014 plans, as are OAK, Zytek, HPD and Oreca according to mulsannecorner.com

[go_Rubens]

More cracking news for LMP1, as Dome look set to build their own S103 for the 2014 rules, and a toned down version for LMP2 as well!

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/107738

Things are seriously shaping up nicely for the WEC!

Nice to see Dome return to Le Mans. So we have Audi, Toyota, Porsche, Perrinn and Dome now. 5 different LMP1 cars confirmed for 2014.

Indeed. And I suspect there will be more to come as well. Not manufacturers obviously but perhaps one or two more chassis builders. Does anyone know if Lola are going to be able to put together an LMP1 package for 2014?

It's all building up nicely though, I'm definitely going to be making an appearance at a WEC race next year!

This is looking good for the WEC in terms of competitiveness. Audi and Toyota are bound to be competitive again and Porsche (I hope) will spice up the action. I like it!

As for Lola, I kinda doubt that they will show up for the WEC, maybe a one-off appearance at Le Mans, but that's it. Their financial problems are just horrific. They haven't had anyone buy them out yet, have they?

[AndreaModa]

Yeah a Canadian bunch have bought everything relating to Lola I believe, and said that production, at least of spares for current models, would resume. Whether they have the financial clout to undertake a whole new design though remains to be seen.

[CarlosFerreira]

Here's some bad news, for me at least: the Hydrogen-Electric GreenGT "Box 56" Le Mans car for 2013 has withdrawn. Bugger. Bring back the DeltaWing, I say!

[AndreaModa]

Here's some bad news, for me at least: the Hydrogen-Electric GreenGT "Box 56" Le Mans car for 2013 has withdrawn. Bugger. Bring back the DeltaWing, I say!

Ah that's a shame. I'd personally much rather see a hydrogen-powered car or a hybrid system incorporating hydrogen fuel cells competing over the typical electric battery design which has so many flaws relating to its "green" credentials.

Do the ACO have a reserve Garage 56 entry like they do for the other classes when one pulls out?

[mario]

Here's some bad news, for me at least: the Hydrogen-Electric GreenGT "Box 56" Le Mans car for 2013 has withdrawn. Bugger. Bring back the DeltaWing, I say!

Ah that's a shame. I'd personally much rather see a hydrogen-powered car or a hybrid system incorporating hydrogen fuel cells competing over the typical electric battery design which has so many flaws relating to its "green" credentials.

Do the ACO have a reserve Garage 56 entry like they do for the other classes when one pulls out?

By the looks of things, no. The article on the ACO's website is reporting that the vacant position created by GreenGT has been replaced with an additional entry for the GTE Am category instead, a Porsche 911 being run by ProSpeed Competition. http://www.24h-lemans.com/en/news/withd ... 10796.html

I guess that it does make sense, though - considering that the Garage 56 entry is effectively a one off entry, it makes it hard to find a replacement at short notice if the original entrant falls through, whereas it is probably a lot easier to find a conventional GT entrant to fill the gap.

[CarlosFerreira]

Here's some bad news, for me at least: the Hydrogen-Electric GreenGT "Box 56" Le Mans car for 2013 has withdrawn. Bugger. Bring back the DeltaWing, I say!

Ah that's a shame. I'd personally much rather see a hydrogen-powered car or a hybrid system incorporating hydrogen fuel cells competing over the typical electric battery design which has so many flaws relating to its "green" credentials.

Do the ACO have a reserve Garage 56 entry like they do for the other classes when one pulls out?

By the looks of things, no. The article on the ACO's website is reporting that the vacant position created by GreenGT has been replaced with an additional entry for the GTE Am category instead, a Porsche 911 being run by ProSpeed Competition. http://www.24h-lemans.com/en/news/withd ... 10796.html

I guess that it does make sense, though - considering that the Garage 56 entry is effectively a one off entry, it makes it hard to find a replacement at short notice if the original entrant falls through, whereas it is probably a lot easier to find a conventional GT entrant to fill the gap.

All true, but I'd really prefer if they invited DeltaWing again. It is one of the most interesting racing cars of the last few years*, and I think they're working on a coupe version.

*My humble opinion, of course - I like innovative, quirky stuff. For those that haven't seen it, here's Chris Harris testing it. Great fun to watch, and a rather interesting technical appraisal of the car.

[RealRacingRoots]

If they were to bring back the DeltaWing, it wouldn't go the distance like it could have last year. The engine in the car this year is a piece of trash, think of the engine in the Dyson Lola, but even more unreliable.

At least the fight in GTE-Am gets even better; the Prospeed Porsche has Emmanuel Collard as their pro. Although they'll have to deal with Patrick Long in the Depmsey Porsche, the All-Danish Aston, and the always quick Larbre Corvettes.

[CarlosFerreira]

If they were to bring back the DeltaWing, it wouldn't go the distance like it could have last year. The engine in the car this year is a piece of trash, think of the engine in the Dyson Lola, but even more unreliable.

What, did Nissan pull the plug on the project? What a shame.

[RealRacingRoots]

If they were to bring back the DeltaWing, it wouldn't go the distance like it could have last year. The engine in the car this year is a piece of trash, think of the engine in the Dyson Lola, but even more unreliable.

What, did Nissan pull the plug on the project? What a shame.

Nissan has moved onto their own thing (Garage 56 for next year) instead of branding a RML-Built Chevy WTCC engine.

[mario]

If they were to bring back the DeltaWing, it wouldn't go the distance like it could have last year. The engine in the car this year is a piece of trash, think of the engine in the Dyson Lola, but even more unreliable.

What, did Nissan pull the plug on the project? What a shame.

As RealRacingRoots notes correctly, Nissan were only really interested in the project for a short time around Le Mans when they realised that they could cash in on the publicity surrounding the car at the time.

The problem from the point of view of Nissan, asides from the fact that it would only garner limited attention due to its short lifespan, is the fact that, by the admission of the designers behind the car, there is no possibility for technological transfer to occur from that car to the road. Given that the ACO is, supposedly, trying to encourage technological transfer (though I have my doubts about how effective that can ever truly be), having a car that is effectively a technological dead end does kind of contradict that philosophy.
That seems to be the reason why they elected for the GreenGT and Nissan's electric vehicle - those vehicles have alternative powertrain designs that, in theory, might have transferable technological applications to the road, which would be more in keeping with the ACO's publicity.

[The Dutch Bear]

If they were to bring back the DeltaWing, it wouldn't go the distance like it could have last year. The engine in the car this year is a piece of trash, think of the engine in the Dyson Lola, but even more unreliable.

What, did Nissan pull the plug on the project? What a shame.

As RealRacingRoots notes correctly, Nissan were only really interested in the project for a short time around Le Mans when they realised that they could cash in on the publicity surrounding the car at the time.

The problem from the point of view of Nissan, asides from the fact that it would only garner limited attention due to its short lifespan, is the fact that, by the admission of the designers behind the car, there is no possibility for technological transfer to occur from that car to the road. Given that the ACO is, supposedly, trying to encourage technological transfer (though I have my doubts about how effective that can ever truly be), having a car that is effectively a technological dead end does kind of contradict that philosophy.
That seems to be the reason why they elected for the GreenGT and Nissan's electric vehicle - those vehicles have alternative powertrain designs that, in theory, might have transferable technological applications to the road, which would be more in keeping with the ACO's publicity.

You can forget about this post.

[AndreaModa]

That news (posted further up the thread) was precisely what provoked this conversation The Dutch Bear.

[The Dutch Bear]

That news (posted further up the thread) was precisely what provoked this conversation The Dutch Bear.

Well, this is pretty embearrassing (pun intended).

[pi314159]

News from Rebellion: http://www.planetlemans.com/2013/06/08/ ... ith-oreca/

[nome66]

this legit?

[Dj_bereta]

I don't know if this is the right place to post this, but...

Gustavo Yacaman is following Johnny Ceccoto jr. Steps:

http://www.motorsport.com/grandam/news/ ... ies-races/

[RealRacingRoots]

this legit?

Nope, fan design.

[nome66]

ah. never mind then

[CarlosFerreira]

this legit?

Nope, fan design.

Shame. Plenty if Nissan-goodness there.

[go_Rubens]

Audi are the top three fastest in Le Mans testing at la Sarthe.

Come on, Toyota! We are rooting for you!

[CarlosFerreira]

Audi are the top three fastest in Le Mans testing at la Sarthe.

Come on, Toyota! We are rooting for you!

Well I'm not. Go Audi!

[mario]

Audi are the top three fastest in Le Mans testing at la Sarthe.

Come on, Toyota! We are rooting for you!

Whilst it is possible that Toyota are focussed more on reliability and tyre data acquisition rather than outright pace at the moment, Audi's performance advantage looks pretty sizeable right now.

It does seem to back up some of the complaints that Toyota were making earlier this year about the performance balancing, or what they perceived to be a lack of balancing, between the petrol and diesel entries (Toyota complained that the slight reduction in restrictor size lead to Audi simply turning the boost pressure right up on their cars, burning far more fuel in order to produce more, rather than less, power than in 2012). They asked for a reduction in fuel tank size for diesel cars, though the ACO's response was to increase the size of the fuel tanks of the petrol cars by three litres instead.
The only consolation Toyota might have is Audi's fuel consumption - the R18's fuel consumption is in the order of 15-20% higher than last year, and given that Toyota were almost running the same length of stints in the race last year, we might, for the first time in a long time, see a petrol powered entry able to run a longer stint than a diesel entry.

[IdeFan]

Suddenly a wild Porsche appears.



Looks very much like an Audi, I wonder how much access Porsche have had to Audi's aero data?

[Onxy Wrecked]

Audi are the top three fastest in Le Mans testing at la Sarthe.

Come on, Toyota! We are rooting for you!

Whilst it is possible that Toyota are focussed more on reliability and tyre data acquisition rather than outright pace at the moment, Audi's performance advantage looks pretty sizeable right now.

It does seem to back up some of the complaints that Toyota were making earlier this year about the performance balancing, or what they perceived to be a lack of balancing, between the petrol and diesel entries (Toyota complained that the slight reduction in restrictor size lead to Audi simply turning the boost pressure right up on their cars, burning far more fuel in order to produce more, rather than less, power than in 2012). They asked for a reduction in fuel tank size for diesel cars, though the ACO's response was to increase the size of the fuel tanks of the petrol cars by three litres instead.
The only consolation Toyota might have is Audi's fuel consumption - the R18's fuel consumption is in the order of 15-20% higher than last year, and given that Toyota were almost running the same length of stints in the race last year, we might, for the first time in a long time, see a petrol powered entry able to run a longer stint than a diesel entry.

The added weight of three litres of petrol also would slow the Toyota early in a run. Weight means a lot in racing.

[Wallio]

Suddenly a wild Porsche appears.



Looks very much like an Audi, I wonder how much access Porsche have had to Audi's aero data?

Mr. Webber? Your car is ready.


Damn that wrap is hard on the eyes. Cheeky Germans say its to break up the cars lines and damn does it work!

[mario]

Audi are the top three fastest in Le Mans testing at la Sarthe.

Come on, Toyota! We are rooting for you!

Whilst it is possible that Toyota are focussed more on reliability and tyre data acquisition rather than outright pace at the moment, Audi's performance advantage looks pretty sizeable right now.

It does seem to back up some of the complaints that Toyota were making earlier this year about the performance balancing, or what they perceived to be a lack of balancing, between the petrol and diesel entries (Toyota complained that the slight reduction in restrictor size lead to Audi simply turning the boost pressure right up on their cars, burning far more fuel in order to produce more, rather than less, power than in 2012). They asked for a reduction in fuel tank size for diesel cars, though the ACO's response was to increase the size of the fuel tanks of the petrol cars by three litres instead.
The only consolation Toyota might have is Audi's fuel consumption - the R18's fuel consumption is in the order of 15-20% higher than last year, and given that Toyota were almost running the same length of stints in the race last year, we might, for the first time in a long time, see a petrol powered entry able to run a longer stint than a diesel entry.

The added weight of three litres of petrol also would slow the Toyota early in a run. Weight means a lot in racing.

The weight penalty from those additional three litres would be fairly marginal though.

Bear in mind that the minimum dry weight of an LMP1 car is 900kg, excluding the weight of the driver, so the weight of the car, plus driver and fluids is probably about 975kg. If we assume that the fuel has a density of about 0.75kg/L, then three litres of fuel would weigh about 2.25kg, or about 0.23% of the weight of the car itself, and overall we are talking about a pretty small increase in permitted fuel load (about 4.3%).

All in all, the fuel effect for a LMP1 car is quite small given that the base weight of the car is relatively high and the actual amount of fuel onboard the car at any time is fairly low. It's one reason why the teams often tend to fill the cars up with a fairly full tank in qualifying and let them drive for multiple laps at a time - getting a clean lap in is more beneficial than any marginal penalty for the high fuel weight or tyre wear (especially since the teams can now go for three or four stints on the same set of tyres given the reduction in the wear rate in recent years).

IdeFan, I'm glad that I wasn't the only one who looked at Porsche's car and thought that it looked awfully similar to the R18. I would not be surprised if Porsche have had a helping hand from Audi to develop this car - bear in mind that Audi's chief designer has explicitly said that he wanted to see if it was possible to transfer the technology that they developed for diesel engines back over to petrol engines, which is likely to be what Porsche are doing.

[FMecha]

Is Audi and Porsche in one group, though, IIRC?

[nome66]

Suddenly a wild Porsche appears.



Looks very much like an Audi, I wonder how much access Porsche have had to Audi's aero data?

Volkswagen AG.
that's how much.

[TomWazzleshaw]

Is Audi and Porsche in one group, though, IIRC?

Yeah, they're both owned by Volkswagen.

[go_Rubens]

Suddenly a wild Porsche appears.



Looks very much like an Audi, I wonder how much access Porsche have had to Audi's aero data?

Looking like an Audi? Hell yeah!

Now really, I have a problem with the paint on the car. Ugh, U-G-L-Y!

[nome66]

you do know why they paint pre-race(and pre-production) vehicles like that, right?

[go_Rubens]

you do know why they paint pre-race(and pre-production) vehicles like that, right?

I do get the concept, nome66. I'm just saying that I don't like it that way.

[nome66]

Ok just asking no worries

[Aerospeed]

I accidentally read Porsche as "Peugeot" for a minute and thought "What the...?"

I'm still confused, but more of the baffling paint job than the manufacturer of the car...

[Wallio]

I accidentally read Porsche as "Peugeot" for a minute and thought "What the...?"

I'm still confused, but more of the baffling paint job than the manufacturer of the car...

There's rumors that those 908s are sitting in a warehouse somewhere, just waiting.....

[mario]

I accidentally read Porsche as "Peugeot" for a minute and thought "What the...?"

I'm still confused, but more of the baffling paint job than the manufacturer of the car...

There's rumors that those 908s are sitting in a warehouse somewhere, just waiting.....

There certainly are a few questions over the way in which Peugeot's program was cancelled - although it was ostensibly to save money, Audi did later say that they saw no sense in cancelling the program that late on given that Peugeot had been upgrading their car right up until that point and most of the capital costs for that season had already been spent. There were a few suggestions that the real reason was a bout of internal politics within the company, with newly appointed managers closing the program as a symbolic break with the previous management rather than for any pragmatic reasons.

That said, there is little point in trying to bring the 908 back now - they won't comply with the 2014 regulations and would require a fair bit of reworking in order to meet the new rules, to the point where it might be more effective to start from scratch instead.

[IdeFan]

I accidentally read Porsche as "Peugeot" for a minute and thought "What the...?"

I'm still confused, but more of the baffling paint job than the manufacturer of the car...

There's rumors that those 908s are sitting in a warehouse somewhere, just waiting.....

There certainly are a few questions over the way in which Peugeot's program was cancelled - although it was ostensibly to save money, Audi did later say that they saw no sense in cancelling the program that late on given that Peugeot had been upgrading their car right up until that point and most of the capital costs for that season had already been spent. There were a few suggestions that the real reason was a bout of internal politics within the company, with newly appointed managers closing the program as a symbolic break with the previous management rather than for any pragmatic reasons.

That said, there is little point in trying to bring the 908 back now - they won't comply with the 2014 regulations and would require a fair bit of reworking in order to meet the new rules, to the point where it might be more effective to start from scratch instead.

I believe the 2014 regulations require a wider greenhouse and that means a new monocoque, there will be wavers for small teams but I doubt a manufacturer would get one.

[nome66]

909 please

[go_Rubens]

909 please

I'd like to see Peugeot come back. The competition would be even more action packed in my opinion!

As for chassis number, Peugeot transitioned from the 905 to the 908, so I'll say they'll go with 910, given that 911 and 912 are often associated with Porsche. Look at what happened to the Ferrari F150 Italia. Nearly sued by Ford over usage of the name.