2014 turbo engines

[Sublime_FA11C]

Renault have details about their contraption. Including a refference to Motorhead and AC/DC. Which would have maybe been awesome... if it were still the 80s.

http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/ ... 14690.html

[good_Ralf]

I wonder how beautiful I meant ugly and deafening the engine sounds.

[mario]

I wonder how beautiful I meant ugly and deafening the engine sounds.

Ask and ye shall receive http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MPearYsHwY

[Shadaza]

I wonder how beautiful I meant ugly and deafening the engine sounds.

Ask and ye shall receive http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MPearYsHwY

Well that was underwhelming.

[Ataxia]

I wonder how beautiful I meant ugly and deafening the engine sounds.

Ask and ye shall receive http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MPearYsHwY

Well that was underwhelming.

I thought it was okay. Maybe could be a little grungier, but whatever...

[CaptainGetz12]

I wonder how beautiful I meant ugly and deafening the engine sounds.

Ask and ye shall receive http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MPearYsHwY

Well that was underwhelming.

Perhaps this is a way to make Formula one "greener"? Le Mans Prototypes have already switched to hybrid engines (at least the ones that wish to stay competitive anyway) and they can go longer distances on them.

As much as I dont want to believe it, but perhaps its no longer feasible to have big powerful engines: they may not do considerably more environmental damage, but the reputation of being "unclean" could have spurred the FIA to make steps towards smaller engines that have a smaller carbon footprint, even if the effects are not as pronounced as the FIA say it is.

Who knows, maybe in a few decades gas-powered cars will be out of F1 altogether. If the noises are less powerful now, imagine when the engines make no noise at all. At least it will allow more courses to be built around towns that may be annoyed by loud engines, since there are a few courses that had to be closed down beacuse of noise pollution.

[kevinbotz]

Is it just me, or does the new engine sound remind me of GT5?

[go_Rubens]

I liked the sound it made. It's better than the V8s in my opinion.

Well that was underwhelming.

I'm going to guess that you appreciated the V8 and V10 eras. I like the new engines coming in. Not just by sounds, either.

Is it just me, or does the new engine sound remind me of GT5?

For me, I don't really think so, but yeah, the engine sounds so clean and polished, which describes GT5's sounds.

God, if you read the comments, everyone is being nostalgic and not paying attention to the long term idea that Bernie and Max have going, or whoever is involved in the making of the new regulations. They need to zark off and think, which most people on YouTube don't do when you think about it. They are a load of bull paddies and need to shut up. With what they're saying, I question whether they think before they write and need to be taught a lesson.

[roblo97]

I liked the sound it made. It's better than the V8s in my opinion.

Well that was underwhelming.

I'm going to guess that you appreciated the V8 and V10 eras. I like the new engines coming in. Not just by sounds, either.

Is it just me, or does the new engine sound remind me of GT5?

For me, I don't really think so, but yeah, the engine sounds so clean and polished, which describes GT5's sounds.

God, if you read the comments, everyone is being nostalgic and not paying attention to the long term idea that Bernie and Max have going, or whoever is involved in the making of the new regulations. They need to zark off and think, which most people on YouTube don't do when you think about it. They are a load of bull paddies and need to shut up. With what they're saying, I question whether they think before they write and need to be taught a lesson.

1. Max has nothing to do with it anymore
2. The Indy car engines could produce more power if they added the recovery systems
3. It sounds awful.

[mario]

I liked the sound it made. It's better than the V8s in my opinion.

Well that was underwhelming.

I'm going to guess that you appreciated the V8 and V10 eras. I like the new engines coming in. Not just by sounds, either.

Is it just me, or does the new engine sound remind me of GT5?

For me, I don't really think so, but yeah, the engine sounds so clean and polished, which describes GT5's sounds.

God, if you read the comments, everyone is being nostalgic and not paying attention to the long term idea that Bernie and Max have going, or whoever is involved in the making of the new regulations. They need to zark off and think, which most people on YouTube don't do when you think about it. They are a load of bull paddies and need to shut up. With what they're saying, I question whether they think before they write and need to be taught a lesson.

Bernie has not been particularly supportive of the switch to the V6 turbo engines - if anything, he was actively hostile to the idea to begin with and is still rather cold towards the idea as things stand.
As to the motivation for the changes - the claims of technological transfer and renewed manufacturer interest - I still have my doubts over the move. Honda may have returned, true, but the primary target (VW) remains uninterested and the ACO's recent moves seem to be stealing some of the manufacturers that F1 were after. As for technological transfer, well, I've always had my doubts that motor sport can really be that effective in actually developing technology for the road - the demands are very different and, in some ways, it is much more challenging to build a road car than a race car.

1. Max has nothing to do with it anymore
2. The Indy car engines could produce more power if they added the recovery systems
3. It sounds awful.

If only the engines are considered, then yes, IndyCar engines are at least as powerful, and probably slightly more powerful, than the new generation of F1 engines (the F1 engines are expected to produce about 600bhp, compared to something in the order of 700bhp for IndyCars, although the additional 160bhp from the energy recovery systems should mean that the overall power output is similar).
On the other hand, by rights the IndyCar engines should be more powerful - although they rev slightly lower, they are 37.5% larger in terms of capacity and tuned to use alcohol fuel mixes, and alcohol fuels do help produce more power (at the cost of fuel consumption) compared to conventional F1 spec hydrocarbon fuels.

[WeirdKerr]

I, for one welcome our new turbo overlords bladebla dee blah!

F1, for me (I started watching in '87/88) has gone full circle which is apt cos the cars go round in circles anyway....

[S951]

that actually sounds better than what I thought it would be like

[Jocke1]

Including a refference to Motorhead and AC/DC. Which would have maybe been awesome... if it were still the 80s.

Message from Lemmy :

[Sublime_FA11C]

Nah, Lemmy is cool in any decade he wants to be in, it was the reference that was... dated and a bit weird. It really has nothing to dowith engines.

As for the Indy vs F1 engines... well Indys were more powerfull in the 90s but featured a lot less technological advances and individual construction. And the cars never really run on FIA tracks so it's less important to compare. The one time Indys did run on an F1 track, they were somewhat slower IIRC. I was a fan of both and was dissapointed by both, but engine power was never really an issue for me.

Renault seems to claim that the new engine will be more powerfull than todays NA engines right away. And more fuel efficient. I welcome the change. It will mix up the field. 2009 was quite a year, let's hope 2014 delivers good racing. Maybe it will even allow drivers to push harder if Pirelli deliver a slightly, just slightly more durable spec tyre. Nothing bulletproof, just good enough to push at 95% instead of current 80%. Or a tyre that makes it possible to go for broke and gamble for a track position advantage. Hmm, wrong thread though

[Aerospeed]

If only I could hear that RAW!

Won't make any opinions until that happens.

[Ferrim]

Well, it doesn't sound that bad. The V8s sound awful, to be honest: too many RPMs for the power they deliver.

What I hate is when they call them "energy units".

[dr-baker]

Well, it doesn't sound that bad. The V8s sound awful, to be honest: too many RPMs for the power they deliver.

What I hate is when they call them "energy units".

Yes. Isn't an energy unit either a calorie or a joule, depending on where you are in the world? Or possibly a watt or horsepower, depending on context? But in any case, having one enrgy unit is pretty feeble and won't get you very far or fast.

[Onxy Wrecked]

Well, it doesn't sound that bad. The V8s sound awful, to be honest: too many RPMs for the power they deliver.

What I hate is when they call them "energy units".

Yes. Isn't an energy unit either a calorie or a joule, depending on where you are in the world? Or possibly a watt or horsepower, depending on context? But in any case, having one enrgy unit is pretty feeble and won't get you very far or fast.

It's so feeble it might not move me at more than a mile per hour as a body unless it's a horsepower which might get me to 60 mp/h while running if my body could produce one horsepower assuming a horse weighs about 1,000 pounds and that I weigh 250 pounds (my actual weight isn't too far from this figure I gave). 60 mp/h is highway speed in almost any country not named Germany on the limitless sections of the Autobahn.

[tommykl]

Well, it doesn't sound that bad. The V8s sound awful, to be honest: too many RPMs for the power they deliver.

What I hate is when they call them "energy units".

Yes. Isn't an energy unit either a calorie or a joule, depending on where you are in the world? Or possibly a watt or horsepower, depending on context? But in any case, having one enrgy unit is pretty feeble and won't get you very far or fast.

Yes, joules and calories are the units of energy (and their usage depends on the context rather than the country you're in). Watts and horsepower are units of power, which is energy divided by the time over which it was used.

But yes, one energy unit is pretty small, when you take into account that the burning of a few millilitres of fuel gives off quite a few kilojoules

60 mp/h is highway speed in almost any country not named Germany on the limitless sections of the Autobahn.

Actually, I believe it's 70 in the UK, and for most of continental Europe, it's somewhere around 110-120 km/h (around 70-75 mph), except France, where it's 130 km/h (about 80 mph).

[roblo97]

Yes it is 70mph in Britain

[BabyG]

I wonder how beautiful I meant ugly and deafening the engine sounds.

Ask and ye shall receive http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MPearYsHwY

I'm a bit skeptical that that is a genuine recording of the new engine. I really don't know much about these things, but to get that sound they would have had to have the engine connected to a gearbox, right? It sounds like a professionally recorded sound effect taken from a computer game, rather than an engine being fired up in a garage/workshop during testing.

Does anyone have any website links to say that the sound is a genuine release from Renault?

[mario]

I wonder how beautiful I meant ugly and deafening the engine sounds.

Ask and ye shall receive http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MPearYsHwY

I'm a bit skeptical that that is a genuine recording of the new engine. I really don't know much about these things, but to get that sound they would have had to have the engine connected to a gearbox, right? It sounds like a professionally recorded sound effect taken from a computer game, rather than an engine being fired up in a garage/workshop during testing.

Does anyone have any website links to say that the sound is a genuine release from Renault?

It doesn't necessarily have to be connected to a gearbox - the recording probably was taken from an engine dyno test, which might also explain why the engine note sounded a little flat (since it probably was not operating under heavy load).

[Divina_Galica]

It doesn't necessarily have to be connected to a gearbox - the recording probably was taken from an engine dyno test, which might also explain why the engine note sounded a little flat (since it probably was not operating under heavy load).

Sounded like a dyno-test run to me too, but there is no reason why it isn't recorded under load. All the F1 engines are run in the test rigs to simulate actual GPs etc.

The sound is disappointing to say the least, okay it will be louder out on track but the quality of the sound isn't very exciting....

DG

[mario]

It doesn't necessarily have to be connected to a gearbox - the recording probably was taken from an engine dyno test, which might also explain why the engine note sounded a little flat (since it probably was not operating under heavy load).

Sounded like a dyno-test run to me too, but there is no reason why it isn't recorded under load. All the F1 engines are run in the test rigs to simulate actual GPs etc.

The sound is disappointing to say the least, okay it will be louder out on track but the quality of the sound isn't very exciting....

DG

It's true that we don't know the exact conditions under which that dyno run was conducted, or what sort of loading it was subjected to. Renault are perhaps simulating a full race as best as possible, but since we are still slightly unsure about how the cars will perform in 2014 - Pirelli have not decided their final specifications and it is not entirely clear how much time drivers will spend on full throttle etc. - I guess that they are probably having to make an educated guess on what sort of loading will actually go through the drivetrain.

Another aspect that might explain the audio quality might be the rumours that Renault are not using the maximum rpm available to them. There was a suggestion that Renault were planning to only rev to about 12,000rpm IIRC, perhaps less, because the fuel flow restrictions meant that they would lose too much power beyond that point due to frictional losses. The fact that they are probably revving quite low compared to the current V8's might also go some way to explain why it almost sounds a little more like a 1980's style turbo engine (which tended to rev to about 11,000-13,000rpm).

[Nuppiz]

Ugh, sounds like a vacuum cleaner on steroids. I sure hope the actual sounds will be better, but I have my doubts...

[go_Rubens]

In fact, I change my mind. I don't care what the cars sound like. As long as there is great racing, I don't care anymore.

[kevinbotz]

In fact, I change my mind. I don't care what the cars sound like. As long as there is great racing, I don't care anymore.

The vast majority of the Formula One community do. A massive part of the appeal of the Formula One spectacle is the distinctive and highly visceral exhaust note of a Formula One engine. A deterioration of the quality of that sound would be highly detrimental to the attraction, and potentially the health, of the sport.

I'm well and truly underwhelmed by the sound of the new engine based off the audio sample. As I stated before, that sound reminds me of GT5's artificially produced car sounds in all the wrong ways. It was subdued, uninspiring, tepid, derivative...I could go on and on with the adjectives. Having said all that, I have my doubts that the sound clip Renault provided is representative of what the new engine will actually sound like on track, and I remain very excited over the technological innovations associated with the new power-plant.

[Ataxia]

In fact, I change my mind. I don't care what the cars sound like. As long as there is great racing, I don't care anymore.

The vast majority of the Formula One community do. A massive part of the appeal of the Formula One spectacle is the distinctive and highly visceral exhaust note of a Formula One engine. A deterioration of the quality of that sound would be highly detrimental to the attraction, and potentially the health, of the sport.

I'm well and truly underwhelmed by the sound of the new engine based off the audio sample. As I stated before, that sound reminds me of GT5's artificially produced car sounds in all the wrong ways. It was subdued, uninspiring, tepid, derivative...I could go on and on with the adjectives. Having said all that, I have my doubts that the sound clip Renault provided is representative of what the new engine will actually sound like on track, and I remain very excited over the technological innovations associated with the new power-plant.

It'll be alright on the night. Plus, we'll get used to it regardless of our opinions on it...

[go_Rubens]

In fact, I change my mind. I don't care what the cars sound like. As long as there is great racing, I don't care anymore.

The vast majority of the Formula One community do. A massive part of the appeal of the Formula One spectacle is the distinctive and highly visceral exhaust note of a Formula One engine. A deterioration of the quality of that sound would be highly detrimental to the attraction, and potentially the health, of the sport.

I'm well and truly underwhelmed by the sound of the new engine based off the audio sample. As I stated before, that sound reminds me of GT5's artificially produced car sounds in all the wrong ways. It was subdued, uninspiring, tepid, derivative...I could go on and on with the adjectives. Having said all that, I have my doubts that the sound clip Renault provided is representative of what the new engine will actually sound like on track, and I remain very excited over the technological innovations associated with the new power-plant.

I have to say, the engine clip was probably a dyno test and I don't think that clip will give an accurate guess on the 2014 engine sounds. But, maybe I should care. But, I want to see great racing out of new regs, not people bickering about engine sounds. If people are bickering (not saying the forum is), then I don't partake in the arguments as much as possible and don't give a crap about it.

[Sublime_FA11C]

It'll be alright on the night. Plus, we'll get used to it because it will be crammed down our throats anyway...

Fixed.

Mind you i don't mind change. Without change things have no other option but to die out. I aslo wouldn't wish for the old sound too much. It might lead to a Noise Enhancement System being developed to artificially simulate engine noise produced by a V12.

It's also unfair to judge the sound (if that even is close to real sound) outside the context of the sport. In the car, during racing, out on the track... that's where it matters. And we wont hear that for some time.

[Rusujuur]

I must say I really don't care how the engine sounds as I have never been to an F1 race on the track and probably never will as it is well out of my price range with all the travelling involved. And from TV the engine sound really isn't the same and never will be, it is much worse than even amateur motorcycle races that I regularly attend. There is that ground shaking, breath-taking quality to a live race engine sound you just cant emulate with any audio system however well it is recorded. I watch the races for the racing and not some audio experience.

As for the engines themselves, I really like the way they are going, as I also like the hybrid concept that is taking over the road-car market. If F1 wants to stay relevant they have to move toward new horizons as well. Even if they go fully electric it would still be motrosport and probably the pinnacle of motorsport as there really is no competition in that sector.

[Jonny83]

Perhaps this is a way to make Formula one "greener"? Le Mans Prototypes have already switched to hybrid engines (at least the ones that wish to stay competitive anyway) and they can go longer distances on them.

After watching Le Mans this week, one thing it does well is hammer home that the use of hybrid energy recovery in a motorsport context doesn't have to be about being "green" to appease the environmentalists, but about performance. Early in the race before the cars got strung out, the way the Audis and Toyotas were both able to streak away from the non-Hybrid Rebellion LMP1s on a restart, regardless of them being better funded entries, was largely down to the extra power they had harvested. Maybe makes things "unequal" or whatever, but thats always been the way with new technology.

F1's problem was they introduced these systems in such a half-hearted manner, allowing only a small boost for 6.7580406whatever seconds a lap, people whining about the cost to such an extent it got voluntarily canned for a year, and having it as basically a P2P function, so you got the impression it was more about increasing overtaking (again ) and a token gesture to the environmentalists rather than any real meaningful difference to the cars performance. I even remember hearing talk in 2009 of introducing a standard system (utterly pointless), and/or making its use mandatory (because at the time there was no significant performance incentive to use it given the trade-offs)

I haven't looked properly into how this will change from next year, but I'm still hearing things like x bhp for x seconds per lap limits, so while yeah you can focus on maybe making the systems smaller and lighter, in terms of improving their efficiency there's no real motive once you're already able to harvest what the rules will let you use, so we'll need to see how it plays out.

[DemocalypseNow]

I actually like the sound of the new engines....if they were in a GT car.

This is not what the engine of a cutting-edge single seater should be. I love the Porsche straight-six (clip), but it's the right type of sound for a GT car. This doesn't belong on an F1 car. Top-line single seaters should have thundering V12s or screaming V10s, not this puny V6 bull****. I already disliked the V8s, and now we're going further backwards.

[SeedStriker]

I wonder how beautiful I meant ugly and deafening the engine sounds.

Ask and ye shall receive http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MPearYsHwY

In comparison, a real F1 turbo engine: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5L-vQ9LWDZw

If the sound is just because of the dynamometer, let's hope it gets better for 2014. If not, then F1 has already lost to Indycar in terms of sound. Let's be honest, even if the engines produce good racing, the sound would be so gutless that even the more heated battle would be like the Twilight Zone. Hell, Indycar's engine sounds even more powerfull than that!

[Aerospeed]

Would putting in a double diffuser or a weird exhaust system make the engine sound louder? Or perhaps the other way around, with no exhaust at all?

[mario]

In fact, I change my mind. I don't care what the cars sound like. As long as there is great racing, I don't care anymore.

The vast majority of the Formula One community do. A massive part of the appeal of the Formula One spectacle is the distinctive and highly visceral exhaust note of a Formula One engine. A deterioration of the quality of that sound would be highly detrimental to the attraction, and potentially the health, of the sport.

I'm well and truly underwhelmed by the sound of the new engine based off the audio sample. As I stated before, that sound reminds me of GT5's artificially produced car sounds in all the wrong ways. It was subdued, uninspiring, tepid, derivative...I could go on and on with the adjectives. Having said all that, I have my doubts that the sound clip Renault provided is representative of what the new engine will actually sound like on track, and I remain very excited over the technological innovations associated with the new power-plant.

I have to say, the engine clip was probably a dyno test and I don't think that clip will give an accurate guess on the 2014 engine sounds. But, maybe I should care. But, I want to see great racing out of new regs, not people bickering about engine sounds. If people are bickering (not saying the forum is), then I don't partake in the arguments as much as possible and don't give a crap about it.

The other aspect is that we do not know the exact conditions under which said test occurred, which is probably intentional on the part of Renault given the prevalence of audio analysis techniques that can be used to estimate the power output of the engines. FOM, after all, used it for a number of years to determine the rpm of the engines for the TV overlays, I believe, so that software would be available to other teams - and Renault would be wary of giving them too much to work with.
Given that, it has been suggested that Renault probably did modify either the recording itself, or made sure that the recording took place in unusual conditions (some sort of muffling of the sound, short shifting or running with an unusual engine mapping) to ensure that it would not provide too much information when picked apart.

Perhaps this is a way to make Formula one "greener"? Le Mans Prototypes have already switched to hybrid engines (at least the ones that wish to stay competitive anyway) and they can go longer distances on them.

After watching Le Mans this week, one thing it does well is hammer home that the use of hybrid energy recovery in a motorsport context doesn't have to be about being "green" to appease the environmentalists, but about performance. Early in the race before the cars got strung out, the way the Audis and Toyotas were both able to streak away from the non-Hybrid Rebellion LMP1s on a restart, regardless of them being better funded entries, was largely down to the extra power they had harvested. Maybe makes things "unequal" or whatever, but thats always been the way with new technology.

F1's problem was they introduced these systems in such a half-hearted manner, allowing only a small boost for 6.7580406whatever seconds a lap, people whining about the cost to such an extent it got voluntarily canned for a year, and having it as basically a P2P function, so you got the impression it was more about increasing overtaking (again ) and a token gesture to the environmentalists rather than any real meaningful difference to the cars performance. I even remember hearing talk in 2009 of introducing a standard system (utterly pointless), and/or making its use mandatory (because at the time there was no significant performance incentive to use it given the trade-offs)

I haven't looked properly into how this will change from next year, but I'm still hearing things like x bhp for x seconds per lap limits, so while yeah you can focus on maybe making the systems smaller and lighter, in terms of improving their efficiency there's no real motive once you're already able to harvest what the rules will let you use, so we'll need to see how it plays out.

Part of the reason why the measures were half hearted was the need for the manufacturers to appease the independent teams, such as Williams or Sauber, who would have seen little to no benefit in unfettered KERS development but, most likely, have to pick up at least some of the bill for it.
It also didn't help that not all of the engine suppliers were especially supportive either - the strongest supporter of energy recovery systems were BMW, IIRC, and in that instance they were keen to have both heat and kinetic energy recovery systems, but not that many of the other manufacturers were massively keen on KERS given that not many of them currently fit energy recovery systems to their cars (preferring to concentrate on downsized forced induction petrol and diesel engines). Even Toyota was somewhat dismissive of the move, complaining that motor sport was, in terms of the technology it used, too far behind what Toyota was already fitting to their road cars to be of any relevance to them.

Even at Le Mans, the current implementation is still rather flawed by the fact that KERS is also a power boost system that can only be used in designated zones around the track and in the pit lane (and, even then, only if the team has chosen to power the rear wheels - Audi's system is completely inactive below 120kph). In at least some of those restarts, in theory, neither Audi nor Toyota should have been able to use their KERS given that they were outside of the designated zones, so that cannot be the sole reason for the rapidity with which they pulled away from the Rebellion LMP1's (especially since the engine Rebellion uses is not entirely dissimilar to Toyota's works engine).

[Onxy Wrecked]

Would putting in a double diffuser or a weird exhaust system make the engine sound louder? Or perhaps the other way around, with no exhaust at all?

I know a hole in the exhaust system will make it louder as would a narrow muffler.

[go_Rubens]

Alain Prost's opinion on the turbos: http://www.formula1.com/news/interviews/2013/6/14695.html

[roblo97]

Would putting in a double diffuser or a weird exhaust system make the engine sound louder? Or perhaps the other way around, with no exhaust at all?

I know a hole in the exhaust system will make it louder as would a narrow muffler.

My dad had one of them holes in his Rover 25 and it sounded…
1. Better than next years engines
2. Like an STI

[go_Rubens]

Would putting in a double diffuser or a weird exhaust system make the engine sound louder? Or perhaps the other way around, with no exhaust at all?

I know a hole in the exhaust system will make it louder as would a narrow muffler.

My dad had one of them holes in his Rover 25 and it sounded…
1. Better than next years engines
2. Like an STI

Probably did. Am I the only one who thinks next year's engines might sound good?