Sauber F1 Team - Financial struggles

Alextrax52 · Post by **Alextrax52** » 13 Jul 2013, 18:29

FullMetalJack wrote:
Svenko Wankerov wrote:
dr-baker wrote:I was thinking perhaps Zoran Stefanovic. Or even, heaven forbid, Don Pentecost!!!

Time for Qadbak to try again!

Maybe FIRST can finally properly enter a Grand Prix

Morgan Grenfell anyone?

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 13 Jul 2013, 21:20

dr-baker wrote:I was thinking perhaps Zoran Stefanovic. Or even, heaven forbid, Don Pentecost!!!

Svenko Wankerov wrote: Time for Qadbak to try again!

FullMetalJack wrote:Maybe FIRST can finally properly enter a Grand Prix

Freeze-O-Kimi wrote: Morgan Grenfell anyone?

Or perhaps even Superfund, with Alex Wurz on board again!

Nessafox · Post by **Nessafox** » 13 Jul 2013, 21:34

dr-baker wrote:
dr-baker wrote:I was thinking perhaps Zoran Stefanovic. Or even, heaven forbid, Don Pentecost!!!
Svenko Wankerov wrote: Time for Qadbak to try again!
FullMetalJack wrote:Maybe FIRST can finally properly enter a Grand Prix
Freeze-O-Kimi wrote: Morgan Grenfell anyone?

Or perhaps even Superfund, with Alex Wurz on board again!

Not much fun until MasterCard is involved!

Zetec · Post by **Zetec** » 13 Jul 2013, 21:56

Enough of that fun lads: There are rumours here in Switzerland, that Sauber owes Ferrari 19 Million for engines and that the debts are about 100 Million. The salaries are being paid out of Peter Saubers pocket at the moment. Sauber is denying the rumours right now.
And another rumour is, that Hulkenberg did know last year, that Sauber is in financial struggles and did assure a part of his salary via a bank guarantee, that wasn't fully paid back by Sauber, because of lack of money.

Klon · Post by **Klon** » 13 Jul 2013, 22:19

dr-baker wrote:I was thinking perhaps Zoran Stefanovic. Or even, heaven forbid, Don Pentecost!!!

Svenko Wankerov wrote: Time for Qadbak to try again!

FullMetalJack wrote:Maybe FIRST can finally properly enter a Grand Prix

Freeze-O-Kimi wrote: Morgan Grenfell anyone?

dr-baker wrote:Or perhaps even Superfund, with Alex Wurz on board again!

I cannot imagine how you all could not mention Villeneuve Racing.

S951 · Post by **S951** » 13 Jul 2013, 22:39

Zetec wrote:Enough of that fun lads: There are rumours here in Switzerland, that Sauber owes Ferrari 19 Million for engines and that the debts are about 100 Million. The salaries are being paid out of Peter Saubers pocket at the moment. Sauber is denying the rumours right now.
And another rumour is, that Hulkenberg did know last year, that Sauber is in financial struggles and did assure a part of his salary via a bank guarantee, that wasn't fully paid back by Sauber, because of lack of money.

Heard this to it is sad if true thought the last 2 years they where pretty stable

Walsh_e · Post by **Walsh_e** » 14 Jul 2013, 02:40

For me this shows the problem with F1, even established teams like Sauber are in financial troubles! The need for a cap on spending is drastically needed, along with a greater share of the money to the teams, there should be enough money to keep 13 teams going!

The FIA should 1) take back the rights from FOM 2) give them to a new promoter who gets 10% of the profits instead of 50%! 3) set a limit on spending to only what you have earned, this will make sure that every team runs a balanced budget & open up the sport to teams looking to enter!

Post by **mario** » 14 Jul 2013, 06:57

Zetec wrote:Enough of that fun lads: There are rumours here in Switzerland, that Sauber owes Ferrari 19 Million for engines and that the debts are about 100 Million. The salaries are being paid out of Peter Saubers pocket at the moment. Sauber is denying the rumours right now.
And another rumour is, that Hulkenberg did know last year, that Sauber is in financial struggles and did assure a part of his salary via a bank guarantee, that wasn't fully paid back by Sauber, because of lack of money.

There were a few sources suggesting that Sauber was struggling to fund its engine bills (with a suggestion that Sauber had part paid the bill by offering Ferrari free time in their wind tunnel instead), but if the bills are that large then the team is in serious trouble.

Walsh_e wrote:For me this shows the problem with F1, even established teams like Sauber are in financial troubles! The need for a cap on spending is drastically needed, along with a greater share of the money to the teams, there should be enough money to keep 13 teams going!

The FIA should 1) take back the rights from FOM 2) give them to a new promoter who gets 10% of the profits instead of 50%! 3) set a limit on spending to only what you have earned, this will make sure that every team runs a balanced budget & open up the sport to teams looking to enter!

It's pretty much the case now that only five teams are on a reasonably solid financial footing, which would be Ferrari, Red Bull, Mercedes, Toro Rosso (via Red Bull's patronage) and McLaren, and even McLaren has seen a little more strain on its finances than usual.
Unfortunately, whilst those teams also remain at the top of the sport it is in their interests for the current state of affairs to continue, and with the teams often too disunited to agree on anything there is no agreement on where the restrictions should occur. Just look at the arguments that flared up last year when Red Bull and Ferrari could not agree on restrictions on chassis and aero design and engine development, with Red Bull refusing to yield on the first points and Ferrari not yielding on the latter.

There is also the fact that many teams resent the idea of external "meddling", as they see it, from outsiders who would have to monitor their spending - Williams forcefully rebuffed the idea of an FIA imposed budget cap, even though his outfit would probably benefit from that.
The other concern for several outfits is financial transparency - bear in mind that a number of the teams have companies that are related to the parent team but technically separate, ranging from Mercedes HPE and McLaren Applied Technologies division to Red Bull Technology. Monitoring the activities of those sections, particularly something like McLaren Applied Technologies (which, although it serves the racing team, also does a lot of external consulting work as well), to ensure that research work wasn't being surreptitiously carried out by an external body that didn't come under the supervision of the inspectors could be quite difficult and seems to be one reason why there is considerable resistance to an FIA imposed cost cap.

girry · Post by **girry** » 14 Jul 2013, 07:57

And in the midst of all these financial problems, many so called 'fans' are supporting removing testing limits and opening engine development to all kinds of solutions...some only seem to care about top 6.

wsrgo · Post by **wsrgo** » 14 Jul 2013, 08:02

Why can't Ferrari do a Red Bull and buy out Sauber?

Shizuka · Post by **Shizuka** » 14 Jul 2013, 09:28

wsrgo wrote:Why can't Ferrari do a Red Bull and buy out Sauber?

Ferrari Driver Academy team? It makes some sense, actually...

Post by **mario** » 14 Jul 2013, 09:47

giraurd wrote:And in the midst of all these financial problems, many so called 'fans' are supporting removing testing limits and opening engine development to all kinds of solutions...some only seem to care about top 6.

I suppose it depends on whether you view the sport as being about the drivers or their teams. For those who favour the latter and argue that there should be the benefit of trickle-down technology from F1 into the wider motoring world, I can see why they would prefer to see the regulations being relaxed and permitting greater development of engines and more testing.

The other reason why some want to see testing being opened up a little is the fact that, overall, the testing ban has only lead to modest reductions in costs - although testing can be expensive, the drive for improved, and computationally intensive, simulation work and alternative factory testing schemes means that costs have not fallen significantly that much since testing was restricted.
It's also worth noting that, for situations like the Young Driver Tests, the teams have agreed to split the bill for testing amongst themselves - factory testing offers fewer options to share resources and split costs in that respect. Cutting back a little in that field and pushing the teams towards a bit more on track testing, with provisions to also let third/test drivers get a bit more mileage, seems to have cautious backing of the teams as a result.

Salamander · Post by **Salamander** » 14 Jul 2013, 11:26

wsrgo wrote:Why can't Ferrari do a Red Bull and buy out Sauber?

I'm pretty sure Ferrari are also looking to cut costs. Which should tell you everything you need to know about the current state of F1.

Backmarker · Post by **Backmarker** » 14 Jul 2013, 15:08

Salamander wrote:
wsrgo wrote:Why can't Ferrari do a Red Bull and buy out Sauber?

I'm pretty sure Ferrari are also looking to cut costs. Which should tell you everything you need to know about the current state of F1.

Ferrari have had a lot of opportunities to buy into/buy other teams over the years, and they've never taken that opportunity. I just don't think a junior team has ever been something that Ferrari (or, at least, Montezuma) is interested in.

good_Ralf · Post by **good_Ralf** » 14 Jul 2013, 15:30

Backmarker wrote:
Salamander wrote:
wsrgo wrote:Why can't Ferrari do a Red Bull and buy out Sauber?

I'm pretty sure Ferrari are also looking to cut costs. Which should tell you everything you need to know about the current state of F1.

Ferrari have had a lot of opportunities to buy into/buy other teams over the years, and they've never taken that opportunity. I just don't think a junior team has ever been something that Ferrari (or, at least, Montezuma) is interested in.

F1 Rejects sometimes titled Sauber as the Ferrari Junior Team. The Swiss team have really been bridging drivers to top teams. As you may already know, Massa and Fisichella ended up at Ferrari and Renault respectively after impressive spells at Sauber. Of course, Raikkonen and Perez got to McLaren after spending their rookie season(s) there. Since last year rumours have surrounded the Hulk, now at Sauber, to be linked to a drive at Ferrari. Frentzen ended up at Williams and so on...

Sublime_FA11C · Post by **Sublime_FA11C** » 14 Jul 2013, 16:53

Those with money should survive, those without should not. Why this talk of saving endangered F1 teams? The quicker Sauber and Williams die off, the sooner we can see Stefanovic (or worse) rejectify the grid!

HRT bit the dust, Marrusia seems on the way out. Over the years we have lost Prost, Lotus, Tyrell, Larousse, Dallara, Pacific... the list goes on. It's not quite survival of the fittest, but those who run out of cash or fail to convert cash into succes (Toyota, and by the look of things Mercedes) need to go to make room for fresh (and rejectfull) blood.

The best win the most, those behind get less, and the last get zilch. It is a competition after all, not a parade for struggleing car manufacturers. Well... almost. My point is that sympathy should not go above competition, and if you can't compete anymore, get out. And if you could compete but lack money to do so, then no, you can't compete. You need a complete package. At least Sauber will have a few nice pages in the annals of F1 history.

Post by **mario** » 14 Jul 2013, 19:14

Sublime_FA11C wrote:Those with money should survive, those without should not. Why this talk of saving endangered F1 teams? The quicker Sauber and Williams die off, the sooner we can see Stefanovic (or worse) rejectify the grid!

HRT bit the dust, Marrusia seems on the way out. Over the years we have lost Prost, Lotus, Tyrell, Larousse, Dallara, Pacific... the list goes on. It's not quite survival of the fittest, but those who run out of cash or fail to convert cash into succes (Toyota, and by the look of things Mercedes) need to go to make room for fresh (and rejectfull) blood.

The best win the most, those behind get less, and the last get zilch. It is a competition after all, not a parade for struggleing car manufacturers. Well... almost. My point is that sympathy should not go above competition, and if you can't compete anymore, get out. And if you could compete but lack money to do so, then no, you can't compete. You need a complete package. At least Sauber will have a few nice pages in the annals of F1 history.

If new entrants wanted to enter the sport, there is, in principle, nothing to stop them putting in an entry bid - the grid has had a spare entry slot since 2010, when USF1 voided its entry (now two entries with the collapse of HRT), but no entrant has been found that was solvent and technically capable of putting together a competent technical team. The fact that, for the past two years, the FIA has been unable to find such entrants is a touch worrying for the long term health of the sport.

As to why there are those keen to see Sauber survive, I would say that reflects concerns over the long term stability of the sport for privateer entrants, which are a dying breed in many forms of motorsport, and a sense of frustration that the rate at which FOM is sucking money out of the sport is unsustainable, not to mention that much in the sport is unnecessarily overpriced.
As Symonds has recently pointed out to the German press, the teams are spending, on average, £1.25 million a race just in running costs to attend the races - which means that, in two races, your average F1 team has spent more than a GP2 team spends on its entire annual travel budget. When you are reaching that point, it does start to raise questions about whether the sport as a whole is overinflated in terms of costs and whether that can be sustained for much longer.

The other problem is that, at the moment, F1 doesn't seem to have quite the same pulling power that it once had with manufacturers - the ACO's changes to the LMP1 class has attracted a lot of manufacturer attention recently. Toyota have switched, having found that they can run an LMP1 outfit on a fifth of what their F1 team cost, Porsche are back and Nissan are rumoured to be eyeing up a return to the P1 category (with their Garage 56 entry rumoured to be a testbed for a hybrid petrol powertrain) and both Renault Sport and Honda are thought to be offering modified versions of their F1 engines to sports car teams. It is all well and good for F1 to want to cater to the manufacturers if that is what it wants to do, but the ACO may be potentially stealing some of the more interested parties from under their nose.

LellaLombardi · Post by **LellaLombardi** » 14 Jul 2013, 20:06

Very sad but testament to Peter Sauber's character that he is paying salaries out of his own pocket. That was the main reason he bought back the team, to preserve jobs.

Zetec · Post by **Zetec** » 14 Jul 2013, 20:23

In swiss-newspaper there was a long interview with Peter Sauber today. He said that he paid salaries, but he won't be able to do that any longer, for his own money is running out too, if he keeps transfering his money into Sauber F1 Team.
And he has admited, that he was in Russia twice together with Monisha Kaltenborn and it seems there will be rescue. It's now Putins job to clear the money, but he doesn't say where the money comes from. (but I would suggest it's Gazprom, when Putin has to give his ok).

Sublime_FA11C · Post by **Sublime_FA11C** » 14 Jul 2013, 22:07

I don't know about unneccesarily. Things cost a lot, esp. at the top. FOM sucking money might be an exaggeration as well.

Ultimately is it not Sauber team's fault to have run out of money? Their investment in their car have failed to grab prize and sponsorship, or they spent money on useless things. Or most likely interest.

In the end i think they just spent too long in the midfield and havent managed to break through. Pity F1 doesn't have a transfer system, they could have gotten plenty out of Perez.

watka · Post by **watka** » 14 Jul 2013, 22:15

Peter Sauber is probably the most likeable man in F1, so sad to see the team struggling so much.

Forgive me if this is a stupid question, but where is the Telmex money? Although Gutierrez was reasonably successful in GP2, surely part of the decision to get him on board was for the money? Seems crazy that a team sponsored by the world's richest man in struggling so much financially.

As a joint shareholder with him in Real Oviedo, perhaps I should give a call to sort this out...

Shizuka · Post by **Shizuka** » 15 Jul 2013, 06:42

watka wrote:Forgive me if this is a stupid question, but where is the Telmex money?

At McLaren. They'll almost certainly get title sponsorship from Telmex.

Post by **mario** » 15 Jul 2013, 07:27

Shizuka wrote:
watka wrote:Forgive me if this is a stupid question, but where is the Telmex money?

At McLaren. They'll almost certainly get title sponsorship from Telmex.

Or, if not Telmex itself, there is certainly a good chance that one of the related companies that Carlos Slim operates will be a McLaren sponsor (such as Claro, which is currently at Sauber) - out of the two drivers, it seems to be that Perez is the driver that has the most support from the Slim family.

With the opportunity to become title sponsor of McLaren, one of the higher profile teams in the sport, opening up at the same time Perez moves there, I would not be surprised if they are lining up a title sponsorship deal there (Peter Windsor, for example, did mention that McLaren seem to have been aiming to drum up sponsorship from Mexico) - although, in the short term, the presence of Vodafone probably precludes such a deal being signed. Gutierrez probably still brings in some money, but I would not be surprised if it less than Perez brought in and may be cut back even further if the Slim family reckon they get better value for money (i.e. much more airtime and exposure) by sponsoring McLaren.

pi314159 · Post by **pi314159** » 15 Jul 2013, 08:16

And it looks like Sauber have secured the team's future: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/108788

solarcold · Post by **solarcold** » 15 Jul 2013, 08:21

Wait, it seems... Sirotkin to F1 in 2014? Will he be 18 years old by then?

pi314159 · Post by **pi314159** » 15 Jul 2013, 08:23

solarcold wrote:Wait, it seems... Sirotkin to F1 in 2014? Will he be 18 years old by then?

Yes, he's born August 27, 1995.

Wait, that means there will be a Formula 1 driver who is younger than me next year. I didn't expect that.

RonDenisDeletraz · Post by **RonDenisDeletraz** » 15 Jul 2013, 08:26

I personally don't think Sirotkin is anywhere near ready for F1, I would give him at least another year in FR3.5. But this is still good.

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 15 Jul 2013, 08:28

pi314159 wrote:
solarcold wrote:Wait, it seems... Sirotkin to F1 in 2014? Will he be 18 years old by then?

Yes, he's born August 27, 1995.

Wait, that means there will be a Formula 1 driver who is younger than me next year. I didn't expect that.

I officially feel old now. He's two months younger than me

Post by **Londoner** » 15 Jul 2013, 09:09

Wizzie wrote:
pi314159 wrote:
solarcold wrote:Wait, it seems... Sirotkin to F1 in 2014? Will he be 18 years old by then?

Yes, he's born August 27, 1995.

Wait, that means there will be a Formula 1 driver who is younger than me next year. I didn't expect that.

I officially feel old now. He's two months younger than me

Bloody hell, I thought I had at least 2 or 3 more years of being older than the entire F1 grid.

dinizintheoven · Post by **dinizintheoven** » 15 Jul 2013, 09:21

pi314159 wrote:
solarcold wrote:Wait, it seems... Sirotkin to F1 in 2014? Will he be 18 years old by then?

Yes, he's born August 27, 1995.

And the only time when Fernando Alonso and Sebastian Vettel would be mentioned in the same sentence as Esteban Tuero was in the "youngest ever" records list. They've all been blown clean out of the water.

September 1995 is when I started my A-levels. I want hear no more of you youngsters "feeling old"!

Alextrax52 · Post by **Alextrax52** » 15 Jul 2013, 09:27

I honestly think there's another Esteban Tuero coming up here. You should never be parachuted into F1 at such a young age regardless of the amount of talent (or lack of it) you have. Give him 2-3 years more of experience in the lower formulae and he'll be fine.

Yannick · Post by **Yannick** » 15 Jul 2013, 09:45

It's good news that Sauber is off the hook from the towing truck and back on track again.

Would the Russian backers settle with Vitaly Petrov driving the car until new kid Sergej Sirotkin is ready? Here's hoping they would. That would take a lot of pressure off from Sirotkin and the Sauber team, too. If Sirotkin gets the race drive for 2014 already, he would need to prove he is the next Räikkonen instead of the next Fontana or the next Bouillion or the next Gutierrez for that matter. And even Felipe Massa had to sit out the latter part of his debut season with Sauber after having been rushed into the race drive too early.

Petrov, on the other hand, would be almost a perfect fit: he is a proven quantity and he really can drive. He has shown that with GenII Capital-Renault. Here's hoping the Sauber team management can agree on a driver combination of Petrov-Gutierrez and a reserve and Friday driver role for Sirotkin whilst the latter is coming up through the feeder series. That would be much more sensible.

Yet how can a team be sensible when they need the money? That's one of the reasons for some teams having a profile on this very website.

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 15 Jul 2013, 10:05

Yannick wrote:...And even Felipe Massa had to sit out the latter part of his debut season with Sauber after having been rushed into the race drive too early.

Actually, what happened was that Massa got the first ever 10 place grid penalty for an incident at the Italian Grand Prix. Assuming that the 10 place grid penalty would have effectively written off weekend at the US Grand Prix, Peter Sauber managed to find a loophole in the regulations which meant that Massa didn't have to serve the penalty as long as he didn't race in the USA. Sauber already had Frentzen on contract for 2003 and since TWR Arrows had gone belly-up by that point, they simply put him in the car for the US GP and negated the penalty.

S951 · Post by **S951** » 15 Jul 2013, 10:16

petrov in with new kid doing fps for the whole year to learn the tracks? would make more sense that way unless they go petrov and the new kid all new line up?

if this is all finalised it is good news they have secured their future

Sublime_FA11C · Post by **Sublime_FA11C** » 15 Jul 2013, 10:35

On the bright side Chilton will no longer be the butt of so many jokes and will never finish a GP last again.

The move Hulkenberg made last year is looking worse though. Poor Hulk, he'll look back at the time people regarded that as a sideways move and wonder how it all went downhill. Caterham and Marrusia will be overjoyed at the midfield deciding to drop down to their level.

Backmarker · Post by **Backmarker** » 15 Jul 2013, 11:38

Sublime_FA11C wrote:The move Hulkenberg made last year is looking worse though. Poor Hulk, he'll look back at the time people regarded that as a sideways move and wonder how it all went downhill. Caterham and Marrusia will be overjoyed at the midfield deciding to drop down to their level.

I hope he doesn't become a modern Alesi, moving to teams at the wrong time.

wsrgo · Post by **wsrgo** » 15 Jul 2013, 12:46

Sublime_FA11C wrote:On the bright side Chilton will no longer be the butt of so many jokes and will never finish a GP last again.

You must be utterly deluded to say Chilton is better than Sirotkin..http://www.paddockscout.com/sirotkin-joins-sauber-as-part-of-russian-rescue-deal/

I rest my case. Next time, please read up someone's resume before coming to a conclusion..

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 15 Jul 2013, 12:56

Oh yes, here we go, exactly the same complaints as 2000 when Kimi Raikkonen graduated to Sauber with only one season's experience in single seaters.

Remind me, how did that go?

Aerospeed · Post by **Aerospeed** » 15 Jul 2013, 12:58

I'd still give him another year in Formula Renault 3.5. Though I'd convince Fortec to give him a shot.

good_Ralf · Post by **good_Ralf** » 15 Jul 2013, 13:12

Aerospeed [JerMcC] wrote:I'd still give him another year in Formula Renault 3.5. Though I'd convince Fortec to give him a shot.

Agreed. Sirotkin is 8th in the championship and isn't dominating it. In 2000, Kimi Raikkonen was champion in British Formula Renault. Perhaps Sauber should wait until Sirotkin actually sweeps the field in whatever category he might be in.