The Reliant Robin Road Cars Thread

[Peteroli34]

Obviously he's on his parents insurance guys.

No I'm not because 1. It's illegal and 2. It was for me on UK provisional lisence held for less than a month with me driving less than 3000 miles per year, not at peak times.

It maybe cheap as learner but as soon as you pass your test then it will be in the thousands of pounds

[Ataxia]

Obviously he's on his parents insurance guys.

No I'm not because 1. It's illegal and 2. It was for me on UK provisional lisence held for less than a month with me driving less than 3000 miles per year, not at peak times.

Set up the parameters to say that you've hypothetically just passed your test, and then report your findings...

[roblo97]

Obviously he's on his parents insurance guys.

No I'm not because 1. It's illegal and 2. It was for me on UK provisional lisence held for less than a month with me driving less than 3000 miles per year, not at peak times.

Set up the parameters to say that you've hypothetically just passed your test, and then report your findings...

Here you go.

http://m.flickr.com/lightbox?id=12329647424

[pasta_maldonado]

No I'm not because 1. It's illegal and 2. It was for me on UK provisional lisence held for less than a month with me driving less than 3000 miles per year, not at peak times.

Set up the parameters to say that you've hypothetically just passed your test, and then report your findings...

Here you go.

http://m.flickr.com/lightbox?id=12329647424

Well, now you know how much it will actually cost you. So, unless you're parents are rich and/or you're working 5 jobs plus selling your soul to the devil there is no way you can afford two of your supposed first cars. Your first car will probably be a clattered old Vauxhall Nova thats rolled over more times than the euromillions or a Nissan Micra, preferrably in mint green, that some old biddy called Doris has had sitting in her drive since the month it was delivered, has barely 2000 miles on the clock, but can be insured under a grand and will not do you any favours in the school popularity standings.

Second of all, a provisional license is PROVISIONAL - i.e. it is not a full one. You are only permitted to drive with a provisional with a qualified instructor (or someone who has passed their test, I'm not too sure), but you cannot drive by yourself. So I don't know why you was looking up costs for a provisional, anyway. And you'll probably only have the provisional for a year/just over a year, it's impossible for you to rack up anywhere NEAR 3000 miles whilst under full instruction. Maybe a couple of hundred. The only time you'll get 3000 is if you roll the bloody thing or your teacher knows how to roll back the clock.... Also, you dont PAY insurance whilst learning....your instructor pays to insure his car. If you have to pay insurance whilst learning, you've been well and truly had.

Thirdly, it is not illegal to be on the same insurance as your parents - it's NOT called multi-car, as petroli has informed me..oops. Still, being on your parent's insurance plan is not illegal, and it's slightly cheaper if done properly. It's about as illegal as breathing.

And last of all, I don't know whether it's a touchscreen keyboard problem or just a lack of understanding, but insurance is spelt i-n-s-u-r-a-n-c-e. Also, college is spelt c-o-l-l-e-g-e. A collage is something Art teachers tell year 7's to do to occupy them, rather than a place you do your A-levels.

Wisen up. If you want to learn how to drive and actually get a car when and if you past your test, you'll need to know your stuff.

[Wallio]

Obviously he's on his parents insurance guys.

No I'm not because 1. It's illegal and 2. It was for me on UK provisional lisence held for less than a month with me driving less than 3000 miles per year, not at peak times.

Really you Brits can't do that? That's brutal. Over here most insurance companies tell you to do that, until your 26 anyway. Huge discount when you turn 26. And when you get married. Since I did both in the dame month, my insurance dropped nearly 70%!

[Peteroli34]

While you are insured to drive an driving instructors if you want to drive your own car or somelse car while learning (which as long as the person with you is over 21 and had their license for over three years) that car will have to be insured with the provisional license holder on the policy.

Its not illegal to be a named driver on your parents policy providing you are not the main driverof the vehicle. Only if you own the car and are the main driver then it is illegal to be a named driver on a policy.

A multi car policy is if you own more than one car so instead of having two or three policies with different renewal dates. You just have one. Being on you parents policy is not multicar

[AndreaModa]

Here you go.

http://m.flickr.com/lightbox?id=12329647424

Oh dear. I rest my case.

[roblo97]

Here you go.

http://m.flickr.com/lightbox?id=12329647424

Oh dear. I rest my case.

But on the previous page…

Here is the evedence.

http://m.flickr.com/lightbox?id=12327726483

[Wallio]

Here you go.

http://m.flickr.com/lightbox?id=12329647424

£5200 for a MK I Miata? Isn't that like $7500? That's more than double whats it worth! Over here you can get a nice one of them for between $2800-3500. Hardly seems fair.

[AndreaModa]

Here you go.

http://m.flickr.com/lightbox?id=12329647424

Oh dear. I rest my case.

But on the previous page…

Here is the evedence.

http://m.flickr.com/lightbox?id=12327726483

But as has already been pointed out by numerous people, those figures in the first image are meaningless. So I'm not quite sure why you're so proud of yourself, there's nothing special about getting a quote whilst you're still provisional, it's pointless! You'd be better off saving even more money and just being a named driver on a parent's car until you pass your test.

£5200 for a MK I Miata? Isn't that like $7500? That's more than double whats it worth! Over here you can get a nice one of them for between $2800-3500. Hardly seems fair.

Oh yeah, that's par for the course over here. You'd be hard pressed to find insurance for a first car that isn't more than double its value. That's a legacy of retards putting their Fiestas into ditches too often, and a claims culture that has resulted in personal injury firms cold calling and texting people trying to encourage claims for non-existent whiplash. It's got a bit better recently now that girls and boys have to be legally quoted the same prices (before, girls' insurance was significantly cheaper, mainly because they have fewer accidents).

[Vepe]

So you pay 1500£ to insure 1-litre Polo? Is that for the minimum coverage? Because I can insure my '02 Saab 9-3 for 1000€ or 830£, and a better insurace coverage costs only 1800€ and cover pretty much everything...

[AndreaModa]

So you pay 1500£ to insure 1-litre Polo? Is that for the minimum coverage? Because I can insure my '02 Saab 9-3 for 1000€ or 830£, and a better insurace coverage costs only 1800€ and cover pretty much everything...

That's comprehensive, which covers everything. I'd imagine third party only would be around the £1000 mark.

[Wallio]

£5200 for a MK I Miata? Isn't that like $7500? That's more than double whats it worth! Over here you can get a nice one of them for between $2800-3500. Hardly seems fair.

Oh yeah, that's par for the course over here. You'd be hard pressed to find insurance for a first car that isn't more than double its value. That's a legacy of retards putting their Fiestas into ditches too often, and a claims culture that has resulted in personal injury firms cold calling and texting people trying to encourage claims for non-existent whiplash. It's got a bit better recently now that girls and boys have to be legally quoted the same prices (before, girls' insurance was significantly cheaper, mainly because they have fewer accidents).

Dear Lord. I'm paying about £300 a year for my neon and I think that's outrageous! Its still really biased over here toward females. My wife's insurance is quite a bit less, although she is 11 years older than me, so that helps, but still.

[Vepe]

So you pay 1500£ to insure 1-litre Polo? Is that for the minimum coverage? Because I can insure my '02 Saab 9-3 for 1000€ or 830£, and a better insurace coverage costs only 1800€ and cover pretty much everything...

That's comprehensive, which covers everything. I'd imagine third party only would be around the £1000 mark.

That makes more sense... But that's still quite expensive

[AndreaModa]

It's at this point I make the case for owning a bike over a car (in the UK of course).

Alongside the prohibitive insurance costs for driving a car, you need to add on annual road tax (between £50-£100 per year for most cars) and if the car is over 3 years old, an annual MOT which is another £55 a year. Then, if the car is fairly new and you fancy looking after it, you'll need regular trips to the dealer for a service which will be in the region of £150 for a standard annual service, and depending on the work required, a major service will be pushing £500. And then to drive it around you'll need to stump up for the outrageous fuel prices in this country which will set you back another £50 or so for a full tank.

So to simplify things, lets say you buy a first car having passed your test, and use it enough to refill the tank every month. You take third party insurance to keep the costs down and don't bother with a service for the car, just an MOT. Even that alone works out at roughly £1700-£1800 a year and that's aside from any additional costs for unexpected maintenance, etc., and assuming you get a decent deal on insurance, and don't crash it. Now when you're paying all that for a shitty late-90s Vauxhall Corsa, it can be hard to justify, particularly when you're 17/18 and don't have a full time job.

That's why I chose to do my bike test, because I paid £500 insurance for the first year on my 600cc Hornet (at 18 years old and as the only person on the policy), £40 for tax (it's gone up every year since then...) and £30 for an MOT. I get it serviced regularly which sets me back £100 a year and it costs me £15 to fill the tank and do a bit over 100 miles which is enough for about 4 weeks' worth of commuting. Yes you can't ride in snow or ice and it's not that fun in the rain, but it's far cheaper, less hassle, easy (and free) to park and traffic queues are no problem. And on top of all that, regardless of what people say, you get noticed when you ride a bike, the girls love it and everyone will want to talk to you about it. And you can have a bloody good time riding it!

I honestly say to anyone in the UK who is considering a bike to go ahead and do it. The costs for learning to ride are far less than driving lessons too, if you needed any more convincing. Then, once you're out of that age bracket where insurance is ridiculous, book your driving lessons and save yourself a ton of cash!

[FullMetalJack]

It's at this point I make the case for owning a bike over a car (in the UK of course).

Alongside the prohibitive insurance costs for driving a car, you need to add on annual road tax (between £50-£100 per year for most cars) and if the car is over 3 years old, an annual MOT which is another £55 a year. Then, if the car is fairly new and you fancy looking after it, you'll need regular trips to the dealer for a service which will be in the region of £150 for a standard annual service, and depending on the work required, a major service will be pushing £500. And then to drive it around you'll need to stump up for the outrageous fuel prices in this country which will set you back another £50 or so for a full tank.

So to simplify things, lets say you buy a first car having passed your test, and use it enough to refill the tank every month. You take third party insurance to keep the costs down and don't bother with a service for the car, just an MOT. Even that alone works out at roughly £1700-£1800 a year and that's aside from any additional costs for unexpected maintenance, etc., and assuming you get a decent deal on insurance, and don't crash it. Now when you're paying all that for a shitty late-90s Vauxhall Corsa, it can be hard to justify, particularly when you're 17/18 and don't have a full time job.

That's why I chose to do my bike test, because I paid £500 insurance for the first year on my 600cc Hornet (at 18 years old and as the only person on the policy), £40 for tax (it's gone up every year since then...) and £30 for an MOT. I get it serviced regularly which sets me back £100 a year and it costs me £15 to fill the tank and do a bit over 100 miles which is enough for about 4 weeks' worth of commuting. Yes you can't ride in snow or ice and it's not that fun in the rain, but it's far cheaper, less hassle, easy (and free) to park and traffic queues are no problem. And on top of all that, regardless of what people say, you get noticed when you ride a bike, the girls love it and everyone will want to talk to you about it. And you can have a bloody good time riding it!

I honestly say to anyone in the UK who is considering a bike to go ahead and do it. The costs for learning to ride are far less than driving lessons too, if you needed any more convincing. Then, once you're out of that age bracket where insurance is ridiculous, book your driving lessons and save yourself a ton of cash!

Go comprehensive for insurance, for some reason it's much cheaper.

[takagi_for_the_win]

Honestly guys, if you think UK insurance costs are a bit hefty, spare a thought for us poor sods living in Ireland, or to be more precise, the north-west coast of Ireland.

Over here, insurance for young drivers is absolutely mental (admittedly, given that the road-death statistics up here are frightening, there is some justification), but honestly, it's absolutely bonkers. Case 1: friend of a friend of a friend, having passed his test and got a full license, decided to buy himself an old Berlingo for 2 grand to pootle around Letterkenny and get him from his flat on the edge of town to the college...on the edge of town. Thus, with the low milage, he was expecting a fairly low quote. Not so. Ladies and gentlemen, for an 11-year old Citroen Berlingo, worth €1500 at most, fully comp, he was charged 8 grand.

Case 2: a school acquaintance, having also passed his test in the past 6 months, bought himself an old Corolla for making the short journey to school everyday. He bought the car for €650, fully comp insurance set him back 4 and a half grand.

And they wonder why more and more young drivers are going uninsured...

[dr-baker]

Moving on from insurance for a moment, I've had my Mini Clubman from new in December 2007, and I'm currently up to about 99,300 miles/159,800 km. Not long to go until the significant 100,000 miles...

[Wallio]

It's at this point I make the case for owning a bike over a car (in the UK of course).

Alongside the prohibitive insurance costs for driving a car, you need to add on annual road tax (between £50-£100 per year for most cars) and if the car is over 3 years old, an annual MOT which is another £55 a year. Then, if the car is fairly new and you fancy looking after it, you'll need regular trips to the dealer for a service which will be in the region of £150 for a standard annual service, and depending on the work required, a major service will be pushing £500. And then to drive it around you'll need to stump up for the outrageous fuel prices in this country which will set you back another £50 or so for a full tank.

So to simplify things, lets say you buy a first car having passed your test, and use it enough to refill the tank every month. You take third party insurance to keep the costs down and don't bother with a service for the car, just an MOT. Even that alone works out at roughly £1700-£1800 a year and that's aside from any additional costs for unexpected maintenance, etc., and assuming you get a decent deal on insurance, and don't crash it. Now when you're paying all that for a shitty late-90s Vauxhall Corsa, it can be hard to justify, particularly when you're 17/18 and don't have a full time job.

That's why I chose to do my bike test, because I paid £500 insurance for the first year on my 600cc Hornet (at 18 years old and as the only person on the policy), £40 for tax (it's gone up every year since then...) and £30 for an MOT. I get it serviced regularly which sets me back £100 a year and it costs me £15 to fill the tank and do a bit over 100 miles which is enough for about 4 weeks' worth of commuting. Yes you can't ride in snow or ice and it's not that fun in the rain, but it's far cheaper, less hassle, easy (and free) to park and traffic queues are no problem. And on top of all that, regardless of what people say, you get noticed when you ride a bike, the girls love it and everyone will want to talk to you about it. And you can have a bloody good time riding it!

I honestly say to anyone in the UK who is considering a bike to go ahead and do it. The costs for learning to ride are far less than driving lessons too, if you needed any more convincing. Then, once you're out of that age bracket where insurance is ridiculous, book your driving lessons and save yourself a ton of cash!

How the hell much do you people pay for gas? Good lord.

And yes chicks do dig bikes, but 600cc is a scooter, not a bike

[dr-baker]

How the hell much do you people pay for gas? Good lord.

I use diesel which is around 1.37 pounds per litre (roughly 2.25 dollars to the litre, therefore about 8.50 dollars per American gallon). A litre of petrol is about 1.28 pounds?

[Wallio]

How the hell much do you people pay for gas? Good lord.

I use diesel which is around 1.37 pounds per litre (roughly 2.25 dollars to the litre, therefore about 8.50 dollars per American gallon). A litre of petrol is about 1.28 pounds?

You surely are joking right? I mean, we have a diesel pickup we use to tow the race car (to ONLY tow the race car. Its an '07 with only 60K on it) and we pay a $4.30 a gallon, and are seriously questioning if its worth it. Double that, I can't even phantom, especially since our media continuously holds up the UK as having a "fine" economy (compared to ours anyway) on one hand, while using gas prices over here as a sign of a terrible economy. Shows why you should never trust American TV. Ever.

[dr-baker]

How the hell much do you people pay for gas? Good lord.

I use diesel which is around 1.37 pounds per litre (roughly 2.25 dollars to the litre, therefore about 8.50 dollars per American gallon). A litre of petrol is about 1.28 pounds?

You surely are joking right? I mean, we have a diesel pickup we use to tow the race car (to ONLY tow the race car. Its an '07 with only 60K on it) and we pay a $4.30 a gallon, and are seriously questioning if its worth it. Double that, I can't even phantom, especially since our media continuously holds up the UK as having a "fine" economy (compared to ours anyway) on one hand, while using gas prices over here as a sign of a terrible economy. Shows why you should never trust American TV. Ever.

Seriously. One pound thirty-eight per litre. You can check my maths if you like. But it's been about that rate for a couple of years. Costs around 45 pounds to put 35 litres in the tank of my Mini.

[AndreaModa]

It's 126.9 in most places around Bristol at the moment. Cheapest it's been for a long, long time. For a while now it's been above 130.9 everywhere, only in the last couple of months has it come down.

And yes chicks do dig bikes, but 600cc is a scooter, not a bike

LOL yeah okay

0-60mph in 3-4 seconds, 94bhp, top speed of well over 120mph. You know I'm quite happy with 600cc thank you!

[Wallio]

It's 126.9 in most places around Bristol at the moment. Cheapest it's been for a long, long time. For a while now it's been above 130.9 everywhere, only in the last couple of months has it come down.

And yes chicks do dig bikes, but 600cc is a scooter, not a bike

LOL yeah okay

0-60mph in 3-4 seconds, 94bhp, top speed of well over 120mph. You know I'm quite happy with 600cc thank you!

You know what we yanks say, don't you? "There's no replacement, for cubic displacement!"

And yes baker I believe you, but bathplug man! That's insane! Its been hovering around $4.20-4.50 here for awhile, but back around xmas it fell to about $3.88 a gallon. That was glourious, as we had to tow 6 1/2 hours one way to get the new car, as our happy on-board computer told us we were doing a whopping 11.4mpg!

[dr-baker]

And yes baker I believe you, but bathplug man! That's insane! Its been hovering around $4.20-4.50 here for awhile, but back around xmas it fell to about $3.88 a gallon. That was glourious, as we had to tow 6 1/2 hours one way to get the new car, as our happy on-board computer told us we were doing a whopping 11.4mpg!

Well, makes me happy then that I get 40 to 50 mpg for urban driving and 60 to 65 mpg for motorway driving! (albeit UK, not US, gallons). Ergo, cost per mile would be lower in my case! 11.4 mpg? Would not go anywhere near a vehicle that did that, unless I were made of money!

[Wallio]

And yes baker I believe you, but bathplug man! That's insane! Its been hovering around $4.20-4.50 here for awhile, but back around xmas it fell to about $3.88 a gallon. That was glourious, as we had to tow 6 1/2 hours one way to get the new car, as our happy on-board computer told us we were doing a whopping 11.4mpg!

Well, makes me happy then that I get 40 to 50 mpg for urban driving and 60 to 65 mpg for motorway driving! (albeit UK, not US, gallons). Ergo, cost per mile would be lower in my case! 11.4 mpg? Would not go anywhere near a vehicle that did that, unless I were made of money!

It only does that while towing, but yea its rough. It usually costs between $85-$120 in gas just to get the bloody race car to the track. And that's before you put fuel in the Fiat itself. Speaking of which, how the bloody much is racing fuel over there? It's about $9.00 a gallon here, so It must be flirting with $20 over there no?

[dr-baker]

And yes baker I believe you, but bathplug man! That's insane! Its been hovering around $4.20-4.50 here for awhile, but back around xmas it fell to about $3.88 a gallon. That was glourious, as we had to tow 6 1/2 hours one way to get the new car, as our happy on-board computer told us we were doing a whopping 11.4mpg!

Well, makes me happy then that I get 40 to 50 mpg for urban driving and 60 to 65 mpg for motorway driving! (albeit UK, not US, gallons). Ergo, cost per mile would be lower in my case! 11.4 mpg? Would not go anywhere near a vehicle that did that, unless I were made of money!

It only does that while towing, but yea its rough. It usually costs between $85-$120 in gas just to get the bloody race car to the track. And that's before you put fuel in the Fiat itself. Speaking of which, how the bloody much is racing fuel over there? It's about $9.00 a gallon here, so It must be flirting with $20 over there no?

To be honest, that I don't know, having never bought any (being purely a spectator). But I guessing it ain't cheap.

[Vepe]

How the hell much do you people pay for gas? Good lord.

I use diesel which is around 1.37 pounds per litre (roughly 2.25 dollars to the litre, therefore about 8.50 dollars per American gallon). A litre of petrol is about 1.28 pounds?

So your diesel prices are roughly the petrol prices in Finland and vice versa... It seems a bit odd... I'm guessing it's something to do with taxation...

[watka]

Going back to bikes, I would not recommend one to any teenager.

Yes, they are fun and yes they are cheap to run but I know quite a few bikers and most of them have had a nasty accident (one very serious) at some point (a lot of them after many years of experience). As a teenager, you're probably less likely to be road aware and less likely to be risk averse. On a bike, there is no protection in an incident. If you want to avoid high speeds you can get a scooter, but than you p*** off the majority of your neighbourhood by buzzing it around making an awful din. Also, if you're an art student, good luck getting any of your work into college.

So no. Not until you're 21 at least.

[AndreaModa]

This is the attitude that is killing motorcycling in this country, and probably elsewhere too.

It is dangerous, in just the same way that driving a car is dangerous. And as we all know, because it's printed on the back of the tickets, motorsport is dangerous.

But why should that stop people doing it? Too many people (friends, relatives, parents, etc) seem to suddenly sprout a negative opinion when any mention of motorcycling is brought up. I know because I went through it. If it hadn't been for my Dad having ridden bikes since he was 17, I probably wouldn't have done it at all. But because I had him fighting my corner I was able to do it and sadly for a lot of young people who see the freedom and fun that you can have on two wheels, they don't have that person fighting in their corner for them.

I was riding pillion on the back of my Dad's bikes as soon as I could reach the footpegs - not because I'd asked to do it you understand, he'd offered and I went along with it and we did all the WSB/MotoGP races and a whole load of BSB races around the early 00s. I was at an age where you're very impressionable, so the idea of at some point graduating to riding myself came very naturally, and with my Dad's support it was fairly straightforward. But as I said, most people don't enjoy that sort of progression and have two miserable uptight parents not prepared to give an inch when it comes to what their beloved child wants to do.

The fact of the matter is, with the right support and the right guidance, anyone can learn to ride, do it safely and enjoy it. You never know when you'll have an accident, be it walking down the street, on a bike, in a car, on a plane, whatever. All you can do is mitigate it as best you can, and if you do that, and have people around you to help you do it when you start off, then you put yourself in the best possible position.

The worst thing parents and relatives can do to someone wanting to learn to ride is to give them an earful of negative bullsh*t, completely fail to support them whatsoever and leave the young, vulnerable rider to learn it all themselves. Because that is when they'll have an accident, and the self-fulfilling prophecy will be complete.

And this doesn't just apply to riding a motorcycle, it could be anything. Starting out in a career in motorsport, learning to fly a plane, whatever. Without the support and help, you can guarantee mistakes will happen and the naysayers will continue to say "I told you so".

Apologies if I have offended anyone with that rant, but it needed to be said in the circumstances. No bad feelings towards you Watka, or anyone else with similar beliefs - there's always two sides to an argument!

[DemocalypseNow]

The entire second page of this thread is why I take the bus! I am completely skint and my parent's don't have the dosh to buy me a cheap runabout car and insure it, tax it, pay for MOTs and other repairs etc etc. No chance. I pay £36 a month in travel costs. That's pretty much nothing. Yes, it means when I'm like 23 or 24, I'll still pay through the nose for insurance, but at least then, I might actually have a hope in hell of paying for it. Unless your parents are willing to subsidise your motoring, the cost of driving is prohibitive until in your late 20s. I hate it, but it is what it is. The insurance firms would bleed my dry if I dared purchase my own personal transportation.

[watka]

This is the attitude that is killing motorcycling in this country, and probably elsewhere too.

It is dangerous, in just the same way that driving a car is dangerous. And as we all know, because it's printed on the back of the tickets, motorsport is dangerous.

But why should that stop people doing it? Too many people (friends, relatives, parents, etc) seem to suddenly sprout a negative opinion when any mention of motorcycling is brought up. I know because I went through it. If it hadn't been for my Dad having ridden bikes since he was 17, I probably wouldn't have done it at all. But because I had him fighting my corner I was able to do it and sadly for a lot of young people who see the freedom and fun that you can have on two wheels, they don't have that person fighting in their corner for them.

I was riding pillion on the back of my Dad's bikes as soon as I could reach the footpegs - not because I'd asked to do it you understand, he'd offered and I went along with it and we did all the WSB/MotoGP races and a whole load of BSB races around the early 00s. I was at an age where you're very impressionable, so the idea of at some point graduating to riding myself came very naturally, and with my Dad's support it was fairly straightforward. But as I said, most people don't enjoy that sort of progression and have two miserable uptight parents not prepared to give an inch when it comes to what their beloved child wants to do.

The fact of the matter is, with the right support and the right guidance, anyone can learn to ride, do it safely and enjoy it. You never know when you'll have an accident, be it walking down the street, on a bike, in a car, on a plane, whatever. All you can do is mitigate it as best you can, and if you do that, and have people around you to help you do it when you start off, then you put yourself in the best possible position.

The worst thing parents and relatives can do to someone wanting to learn to ride is to give them an earful of negative bullsh*t, completely fail to support them whatsoever and leave the young, vulnerable rider to learn it all themselves. Because that is when they'll have an accident, and the self-fulfilling prophecy will be complete.

And this doesn't just apply to riding a motorcycle, it could be anything. Starting out in a career in motorsport, learning to fly a plane, whatever. Without the support and help, you can guarantee mistakes will happen and the naysayers will continue to say "I told you so".

Apologies if I have offended anyone with that rant, but it needed to be said in the circumstances. No bad feelings towards you Watka, or anyone else with similar beliefs - there's always two sides to an argument!

Good points, well made, all taken. I would however add that you could be the best motorcyclist in the world but it doesn't prevent car drivers from being idiots or not seeing you (I wouldn't want to be a motorcyclist trying to overtake an inexperienced driver like me) in which case you have no protection. Most of the accidents I mentioned were not the faults of the riders.

It's six of one and half a dozen of another. I happen to know people who've had trouble, you've stayed pretty safe. I suppose part of it depends on where you live and what you're using the bike for. I'll try to avoid making such sweeping statements in future.

[AndreaModa]

Good points, well made, all taken. I would however add that you could be the best motorcyclist in the world but it doesn't prevent car drivers from being idiots or not seeing you (I wouldn't want to be a motorcyclist trying to overtake an inexperienced driver like me) in which case you have no protection. Most of the accidents I mentioned were not the faults of the riders.

It's six of one and half a dozen of another. I happen to know people who've had trouble, you've stayed pretty safe. I suppose part of it depends on where you live and what you're using the bike for. I'll try to avoid making such sweeping statements in future.

You're spot on, and as you say, more often than not the motorcyclist isn't at fault in the accident. With all the will in the world, sometimes those situations can't be avoided. The only thing you can do is try and read situations whilst out on the road as best as possible and pre-empt any stupidity that may come your way! But in order to be good at that you need the help of others who have more experience, bike rider or not.

For me, I know my Dad had loads of spills when he was my age, and I've even seen his head pop up out of a ditch whilst my Mum drove me and my two sisters into school. Suffice to say he was fine aside from a few cuts and bruises, but the bike was a write-off, and coming round the corner and having to double-take at the helmet that appears out of the ditch before you recognise it's your Dad is a surreal experience.

I guess maybe knowing the accidents he's had and seeing one in the flesh has maybe benefited me more than the average person, but it's hard to quantify. I certainly don't think of those stories and incidents every time I throw my leg over the bike, if anything that's the last thing you want to be thinking about. Much in the same way drivers from the 50s/60s/70s didn't consider the consequences of when they got in their cars - that it could very easily take their lives.

Perhaps there's an element of inevitability when it comes to parents/relatives/friends telling a new rider that it's dangerous, you should stop, etc, etc. By that I mean, maybe it instils in the young rider's head those scenarios where things end badly and it ultimately becomes that self-fulfilling prophecy. I don't know myself, this is merely speculation on my part but maybe there's something to be said for that. Psychologically, whether you're new to driving, riding a bike, flying, etc, you need to have a broadly positive mindset. Obviously you must be aware of the dangers, that goes without saying, but by dwelling upon them and having them drummed into you by unsure, worried loved ones, maybe that creates an uncertainty in the rider themselves that when it comes to a critical situation out on the road, they're unable to react in a way that might avoid an accident, or potentially save their life.

Interesting stuff, and not something I've ever really thought about before, and there's no doubt many people far more qualified than I am that will instantly dismiss such theories, but it's an interesting line of thought!

[dinizintheoven]

A note to Wallio and other Americans: fuel in the USA costs half what it does in the UK, but your average Yank-tank is half as economical as a Euro-box or similar from Japan, so it all evens out eventually. Of course, anyone in North America driving a Toyota Corolla will be just fine financially, but it'll hardly be a thrilling experience. Whatever you're driving it's far better to work out the cost per mile (or cost per km in Roman Catholic) and compare that.

Given the figures posted so far, let's see, who's worse off? $3.88 per gallon (or $1.02 per litre, compensating for American units) at 11.4 MPG, means you'll pay 34.04 cents per mile, or 20.76p per mile in my money. Meanwhile, my Civic with its grumbling 2.2 litre diesel, quite happily returned 53.8 MPG on the 240-mile round trip to the Smoke so I could meet our infernal overlord (and Watka); at £1.349 per litre (and 4.546 litres to an Imperial gallon - £6.133, or in US terms, $8.374 per US gallon) that works out at 11.40p per mile. And that was also bearing in mind I would have had better fuel figures had there not been a howling gale and the entire North Sea falling out the sky on the way home.

What we have is a rather less attractive taxation system than in most of the rest of Europe, where diesel is taxed lower than petrol. A 1.6-litre petrol hatchback might be expected to return 35 MPG; a 2.0-2.2 litre diesel equivalent will crack 50 MPG without breaking sweat. Even taking into account the diesel will be more expensive to buy, the engine will be heavier and the servicing costs will be higher, that is soon paid back at the pump. Here, though, diesel costs 4-5p per litre more than petrol (near me it's £1.30 for unleaded and £1.35 for diesel) due to that unfavourable taxation; in every country in Western Europe I can remember being in, with the possible exception of Norway, it's the other way round, so the fuel that gives far superior MPG is also cheaper. This has resulted in it being practically a no-brainer to buy the diesel on the continent, to the point where I saw an Italian magazine (probably their equivalent of Auto Express, and from what I could make out from not being versed at all in Italian) arguing the case for petrol cars via their lower servicing costs and lower initial purchase price... probably to no avail. I suppose that, seeing as the majority of Alfa Romeos sold now have a clattering Aga under the bonnet rather than the famous old V6, they're concerned that Ferrari will be next...

As for Ireland, what I'd heard from an Irish co-worker of mine (eight years ago, admittedly, and a native of Cork) was that car prices in Ireland (new and used) were much higher than in the UK, probably twice what we'd pay. Even so, in the northwest, it wasn't wise to go thinking you could nip over the border into Northern Ireland, buy your car for half what you'd pay in the Republic and that's the sale of the century, because there was Bertie's Bonus (I think she called it that, as Bertie Ahern was in charge at the time) to pay - a hefty import tax when the car was registered on Irish plates which meant you'd pay just the same overall as buying your car in the Republic.

[Vepe]

A note to Wallio and other Americans: fuel in the USA costs half what it does in the UK, but your average Yank-tank is half as economical as a Euro-box or similar from Japan, so it all evens out eventually. Of course, anyone in North America driving a Toyota Corolla will be just fine financially, but it'll hardly be a thrilling experience. Whatever you're driving it's far better to work out the cost per mile (or cost per km in Roman Catholic) and compare that.

Given the figures posted so far, let's see, who's worse off? $3.88 per gallon (or $1.02 per litre, compensating for American units) at 11.4 MPG, means you'll pay 34.04 cents per mile, or 20.76p per mile in my money. Meanwhile, my Civic with its grumbling 2.2 litre diesel, quite happily returned 53.8 MPG on the 240-mile round trip to the Smoke so I could meet our infernal overlord (and Watka); at £1.349 per litre (and 4.546 litres to an Imperial gallon - £6.133, or in US terms, $8.374 per US gallon) that works out at 11.40p per mile. And that was also bearing in mind I would have had better fuel figures had there not been a howling gale and the entire North Sea falling out the sky on the way home.

What we have is a rather less attractive taxation system than in most of the rest of Europe, where diesel is taxed lower than petrol. A 1.6-litre petrol hatchback might be expected to return 35 MPG; a 2.0-2.2 litre diesel equivalent will crack 50 MPG without breaking sweat. Even taking into account the diesel will be more expensive to buy, the engine will be heavier and the servicing costs will be higher, that is soon paid back at the pump. Here, though, diesel costs 4-5p per litre more than petrol (near me it's £1.30 for unleaded and £1.35 for diesel) due to that unfavourable taxation; in every country in Western Europe I can remember being in, with the possible exception of Norway, it's the other way round, so the fuel that gives far superior MPG is also cheaper. This has resulted in it being practically a no-brainer to buy the diesel on the continent, to the point where I saw an Italian magazine (probably their equivalent of Auto Express, and from what I could make out from not being versed at all in Italian) arguing the case for petrol cars via their lower servicing costs and lower initial purchase price... probably to no avail. I suppose that, seeing as the majority of Alfa Romeos sold now have a clattering Aga under the bonnet rather than the famous old V6, they're concerned that Ferrari will be next...

As for Ireland, what I'd heard from an Irish co-worker of mine (eight years ago, admittedly, and a native of Cork) was that car prices in Ireland (new and used) were much higher than in the UK, probably twice what we'd pay. Even so, in the northwest, it wasn't wise to go thinking you could nip over the border into Northern Ireland, buy your car for half what you'd pay in the Republic and that's the sale of the century, because there was Bertie's Bonus (I think she called it that, as Bertie Ahern was in charge at the time) to pay - a hefty import tax when the car was registered on Irish plates which meant you'd pay just the same overall as buying your car in the Republic.

Not necessarily. I don't about other countries, but in Finland, we have a tax called käyttövoimavero for non-petrol cars. It's currently 5,5 cents/day/every 100 kg. so for a car that weighs 1000 kg, it's about 200€... The benefits of diesel increase the more you drive, so if you don't drive much, buy a petrol car.