Jaguar

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 21 Jan 2010, 10:30

... or, as Clarkson would put it, Jaaaaag. I pretty much missed their short career in the 2000's - me and F1 went strange on each other for a few years - and so I don't really know what happened. They bought Stewart and, next thing you know, they were selling to Red Bull, red faced and at a loss. Last week's Autosport called them "the most pathetic works team to enter F1, despite having the personnel to do much better". So my question is:

- What happened?

How can something with HSBC sponsorship, Webber on board and looking this good have failed so miserably?

coops · Post by **coops** » 21 Jan 2010, 10:43

It was a business model taken to a new level by the recently departed Toyota team.

A stupid amount of money.
A revolving door for the team principals (although they also went down the 'employ ex-drivers' route. Mr Rahal and Mr Lauda take a bow)
Sometimes driver choice was questionable.
A stupid amount of money #2 - during 2000 the highest paid employee of the Ford Company was Jac Nasser its CEO. The second highest paid was driver Eddie Irvine. So the legend goes the board in Detroit thought it was a scam as they'd never heard of the guy.

Ironically when the team shut down things had begun to look good. Webber was proving to be the sort of driver they needed; experienced but not complacent. The car that Tony Purnell designed was pretty handy (as was the first Red Bull car which was also his). Overall they looked like a team to watch. Trouble is it'd taken so long to achieve Ford got fed up and binned them.

It was a fine looking car though wasnt it.

eagleash · Post by **eagleash** » 21 Jan 2010, 11:27

The thing that annoyed me about it was that the previous season (the last as Stewart) the team had shown some real form.

Ford money & inept long distance management ruined an (almost) privateer team.

Can't see Merc making the same mistake.

Collieafc · Post by **Collieafc** » 21 Jan 2010, 13:37

I dont think changing team principles every second race helped. But Ford pulled out for the same reasons that Honda and Toyota did in that it was costing them too much and they didnt have the money. As it turned out, they weren't lying. Ford (and GM for that matter) had been making losses years before the credit crunch.

I cant see Merc doing the same as they seemed to have bought the team just to change its name to Mercedes. They know Ross Brawn knows better, so they are not going to meddle with it (at least, it seems like that)

Phoenix · Post by **Phoenix** » 21 Jan 2010, 14:17

You know, even the best laid plans can go awry at times. Maybe the cars weren't designed properly, maybe the engine was underpowered, maybe some of the drivers underperformed or directly were not competitive enough, or maybe in-house squabblings played its part. Maybe it was a bit of everything.

Popi_Larrauri · Post by **Popi_Larrauri** » 21 Jan 2010, 17:22

... But to say they were the most pathetich works team ever, maybe, it's too much...

fondmetal-fond · Post by **fondmetal-fond** » 21 Jan 2010, 17:40

Phoenix wrote:maybe some of the drivers underperformed or directly were not competitive enough

I think I know who you mean (Irv "cough" ine)...
To be fair, however, he got them their only podiums (in 2001 and 2002, as the car became better). However he certainly did underperform given his salary and his "awesome" statements to the effect of: Schumacher (Michael) is the only one better than the me. In order to beat him, I need something better than the 2000 - 2001 Ferrari. The R2 is that car. I'll be able to take him since I am better at pitstops, and on par with him in terms of strategy...

You should check out this interview (sorry I can't give you the name of the magazine) and the interviewer's reaction, especially as he starts about his "intelligence" compared to the other drivers on the field :lol:

coops · Post by **coops** » 21 Jan 2010, 18:12

fondmetal-fond wrote:
Phoenix wrote:maybe some of the drivers underperformed or directly were not competitive enough

I think I know who you mean (Irv "cough" ine)...

It probably didnt help the situation that Irvine and Johnny Herbert had a bit of a difficult relationship which all went wrong went Eddie punted Johnnys Lotus off at Monza back in '94. The only available Mugen Honda engine had gone to Herberts car and he'd managed to get it up to a season highpoint of P4. It wasnt just another crash it was what possibly helped finish Lotus off.

fjackdaw · Post by **fjackdaw** » 21 Jan 2010, 19:04

Like BAR before them, they cursed themselves by announcing, "We can win our first race."

And the whole culture of imagining themselves as the British equivalent of Ferrari, publishing glossy magazines, all before the first race... too much too soon. Prove yourself, then start acting like a big fish.

ADx_Wales · Post by **ADx_Wales** » 21 Jan 2010, 19:19

But as Stewart they already won a race. :-S or was it a total overhaul?

coops · Post by **coops** » 21 Jan 2010, 19:34

fjackdaw wrote:Like BAR before them, they cursed themselves by announcing, "We can win our first race."

And the whole culture of imagining themselves as the British equivalent of Ferrari, .

Aaah I remember all that nonsense. They owned Silverstone 2000, bloody Jag Flags everywhere. I even bought one which is up in the loft.

Phoenix · Post by **Phoenix** » 21 Jan 2010, 19:39

fondmetal-fond wrote:
Phoenix wrote:maybe some of the drivers underperformed or directly were not competitive enough

I think I know who you mean (Irv "cough" ine)...
To be fair, however, he got them their only podiums (in 2001 and 2002, as the car became better). However he certainly did underperform given his salary and his "awesome" statements to the effect of: Schumacher (Michael) is the only one better than the me. In order to beat him, I need something better than the 2000 - 2001 Ferrari. The R2 is that car. I'll be able to take him since I am better at pitstops, and on par with him in terms of strategy...

You should check out this interview (sorry I can't give you the name of the magazine) and the interviewer's reaction, especially as he starts about his "intelligence" compared to the other drivers on the field

Not only him...Luciano Burti, Christian Klien, Antonio Pizzonia, Justin Wilson.
And to say the Jaguar R2 was better than the Ferrari F2001 certainly sounds like "Well, I'll try to fool the press a bit and scant myself"

coops · Post by **coops** » 21 Jan 2010, 20:12

Phoenix wrote:Not only him...Justin Wilson.

And that was a shame too. Hadnt Wilson beaten Webber to the F3000 title previously?

WeirdKerr · Post by **WeirdKerr** » 21 Jan 2010, 20:34

I seem to remember mid season in '02 or '03 the team announced that they had "signed" Adrian Newey but some days later the move was blocked by Mclaren......

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 21 Jan 2010, 20:41

WeirdKerr wrote:I seem to remember mid season in '02 or '03 the team announced that they had "signed" Adrian Newey but some days later the move was blocked by Mclaren......

That was while Bobby Rahal was in charge, I seem to remember, and almost succeeded because Rahal and Newey had some kind of previous working relationship that went well and wanted to recreate...

Debaser · Post by **Debaser** » 21 Jan 2010, 20:43

That was 2001 between the Monaco and Canadian GP's, I still have the F1 Racing mag from that month where there's several pages and a timeline of how he was wooed by his friend Rahal (who he'd engineered in CART) and signed for Jaguar to be technical head honcho, before Ron convinced him to stay at McLaren.

TeamTipper · Post by **TeamTipper** » 21 Jan 2010, 21:05

I remember the Adrian Newey issue in 2001. I watched the 2001 f1 review not long ago. I remember Ron saying in a cocky way 'he changed his mind'. Rahul said its a load of crap. If Jaguar got Newey for 2002 do u think that irvine and webber would had achive alot more?

Ford should of done a Renault. Not alot of money but a good working team and look what they did in 2005-06.

fondmetal-fond · Post by **fondmetal-fond** » 21 Jan 2010, 21:22

Phoenix wrote:Not only him...Luciano Burti, Christian Klien, Antonio Pizzonia, Justin Wilson

Klein and Pizzonia were some kind of awesome... Pizzonia, I believe, crashed a Jag S-type sedan that he was giving a journalist a ride in around the test track. He tried to drive it like a Formula one car - maybe it was better than their formula 1 car?

Klein tops him, though: I think he lost a diamond that the team had embedded in the nosecone. ( Fact check: Is this true or just a rumor?) Also, using diamond as ballast in an F1 car is a very "Bond villain" manoeuvre.

Phoenix · Post by **Phoenix** » 21 Jan 2010, 21:59

fondmetal-fond wrote:
Phoenix wrote:Not only him...Luciano Burti, Christian Klien, Antonio Pizzonia, Justin Wilson

Klein and Pizzonia were some kind of awesome... Pizzonia, I believe, crashed a Jag S-type sedan that he was giving a journalist a ride in around the test track. He tried to drive it like a Formula one car - maybe it was better than their formula 1 car?

Klein tops him, though: I think he lost a diamond that the team had embedded in the nosecone. ( Fact check: Is this true or just a rumor?) Also, using diamond as ballast in an F1 car is a very "Bond villain" manoeuvre.

Both Klien and Pizzonia never achieved a lot in F1-they didn't seem like doing so though.
And yes, the latter crashed an S-Type accidentaly because he thought he was still driving the F1 car. I don't remember the circuit though.
And how did the team end embedding a diamond in a nosecone? Where did Klien lost the diamond?

WeirdKerr · Post by **WeirdKerr** » 21 Jan 2010, 22:28

Barcalona turn 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jc8uZGDAdQE

the diamond was when the jag team were promoting oceans12(?) at Monaco

Post by **mario** » 21 Jan 2010, 23:21

TeamTipper wrote:I remember the Adrian Newey issue in 2001. I watched the 2001 f1 review not long ago. I remember Ron saying in a cocky way 'he changed his mind'. Rahul said its a load of crap. If Jaguar got Newey for 2002 do u think that irvine and webber would had achive alot more?

Ford should of done a Renault. Not alot of money but a good working team and look what they did in 2005-06.

We can never know for certain how much better Jaguar would have done if Newey had gone across (although they should have realised from the start that Ron would probably have prefered to sell his left leg instead of Newey). Having a top class designer would have done them quite a bit of good - however, the management of the team could have stifled his creativity.
That said, some of the cars did have a few fundamental problems which did hold them back. The R3, for example, was botched from the start when the team miscalibrated their wind tunnel (although, as Renault F1 and Honda showed in 2007, it's not an uncommon problem). To make matters worse, when they produced a lightweight version of the chassis, it turned out that it was flexing due to torsional loading from the engine - so, not an easy car to drive by any means.

All in all though, the Jaguar F1 team doesn't have the worst record in F1 - but it does seem that poor management of the team and the driver choice, coupled to poor reliability and an underdeveloped aerodynamic package all mounted up.

eytl · Post by **eytl** » 21 Jan 2010, 23:29

Well, here's what I wrote at the time (2000 review not available) ...

http://www.f1rejects.com/centrale/2001/review/teams/index.html#jaguar
http://www.f1rejects.com/centrale/2002/review/teams/index.html#jaguar
http://www.f1rejects.com/centrale/2003/review/teams/index.html#jaguar
http://www.f1rejects.com/centrale/2004/review/teams/index.html#jaguar

Perhaps the best way to sum it up is this ... when you have the fourth or fifth-best in every department (funding, drivers, engineers, management, design), you're not going to be a world-beater, are you? And I agree, the initial hype set them up for a fall. From the whole British thing (with Irvine and Herbert as the 2000 drivers), through the likes of Burti and de la Rosa and Pizzonia, finishing up with an Aussie (gasp!) and an Austrian behind the wheel, Jaguar quickly just turned into Another Midfield Team. That wasn't going to do anything for Ford, and Ford wasn't going to do anything for them.

noisebox · Post by **noisebox** » 22 Jan 2010, 00:01

TeamTipper wrote:Ford should of done a Renault. Not alot of money but a good working team and look what they did in 2005-06.

Those titles were 80% Alonso, 20% Renault

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 22 Jan 2010, 03:23

I think the problem was one of the usual works affairs: they expected too much too soon and grossly under-estimated the high-intensity environment of the sport. They thought they could succeed from the beginning, when they should have realised the road they were on was a very difficult one.

TeamTipper · Post by **TeamTipper** » 22 Jan 2010, 04:11

Nosiebox.
With Respect Alonso is good but look what happened at Mclaren with him....
Back to Jaguar.
Also the problem was that the car compared to the Stewart was to racidal. Ferrari Kept it simple didnt have a extreme front noise. The Ford engine was to big and powerful also of curse was the choice of mangement and finally the lack of motivation from Ford they just didn't set reasonable targets like we can win our first race??? It takes time and not always money. I dont blame the drivers.

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 22 Jan 2010, 09:41

fondmetal-fond wrote: Klein and Pizzonia were some kind of awesome... Pizzonia, I believe, crashed a Jag S-type sedan that he was giving a journalist a ride in around the test track. He tried to drive it like a Formula one car - maybe it was better than their formula 1 car?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jc8uZGDAdQE - YouTube footage, at Silverstone I believe.

coops · Post by **coops** » 22 Jan 2010, 09:52

Thats impressive. The guy deserves a drive at USF1 just for that.

LucaPacchiarini · Post by **LucaPacchiarini** » 22 Jan 2010, 10:00

The best thing about Jaguar was when they fired Tomas Scheckter (who was their test driver I think) when they caught him bargaining with a hooker :shock:

I'm not sure but I recall it was him

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 22 Jan 2010, 10:13

LucaPacchiarini wrote:The best thing about Jaguar was when they fired Tomas Scheckter (who was their test driver I think) when they caught him bargaining with a hooker

I'm not sure but I recall it was him

Rings a bell. I sometimes got confused between him and Tomas Enge, but always then remember that it was Enge who lost the F3000 championship because of a failed drugs test.

coops · Post by **coops** » 22 Jan 2010, 10:16

LucaPacchiarini wrote:The best thing about Jaguar was when they fired Tomas Scheckter when they caught him bargaining with a hooker

You're spot on. I remember that because I remember thinking if a racing driver cant get laid without going to a prossy what chance have the rest of us got. :lol:

Gilles27 · Post by **Gilles27** » 22 Jan 2010, 10:24

I always thought the Jags looked great. I remember the podium celebrations at Monza in 2002, when Irvine came 3rd behind both Ferraris. It wasn't a Ferrari 1-2 it was a 1-2-3! I remember seeing Irvine's parents that night in the campsite and they were soooo pleased! We took it in turns to have our picture taken with the trophy.

Gilles27 · Post by **Gilles27** » 22 Jan 2010, 10:25

coops wrote:
LucaPacchiarini wrote:The best thing about Jaguar was when they fired Tomas Scheckter when they caught him bargaining with a hooker

You're spot on. I remember that because I remember thinking if a racing driver cant get laid without going to a prossy what chance have the rest of us got.

Especially when you have Irvine in your team to help you pull!

BigG80 · Post by **BigG80** » 22 Jan 2010, 11:45

I was given Jackie Stewart's autobiography for Christmas and in it he talks (obviously) about the Stewart team and the Ford takeover. He mentions that the Ford management were spending a lot of time in the Stewart garage observing during the last half of the Stewart season and were apparently spending a lot of time tutting and criticising how the team was being run and how they were apparently wasting a lot of time and effort on things.

Now I do appreciate that some of this may be JYS blowing his own trumpet but you have to say the results do speak for themselves. A privateer start up team (I think the fact it was a start up operation and not a buy out is an important one) starts out with good pace but reliability issues, gradually fix the issues, score points, podiums and eventually a win. Privateer team gets bought out by large manufacturer, team has reliability issues, poor pace and a revolving door in the management office and then gets sold when the manufacturer gets bored...and realises how much cash they've lost in other ventures as well as F1.

The sad bookend to the Jaguar tale were Mark Webber and (was it Klein still?) taking each other out in Brazil at what was the teams last Grand Prix.

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 22 Jan 2010, 11:57

Thank you everyone, learning a great deal. I do remember hearing the episode where Irvine was the second best-paid Ford employee and people in Detroit got suspicious... :roll:

I just wonder how the hell didn't Toyota learn from it?

Debaser · Post by **Debaser** » 22 Jan 2010, 12:12

Ford had backed Stewart and supplied them with works engines since they started, why they decided to run the team is bizarre. They could have simply insisted on the green livery, increased sponsorship but let the team run like before. If Jackie had so many doubts about Ford, he didn't let on. My DVD of the 1999 Nurburgring race they do an interview with him where he seemed really upbeat about Jaguar and insisted that he and his son owuld still run the team.

coops · Post by **coops** » 22 Jan 2010, 12:17

I think its all started when a Ford engine (in the back of MSCs Benetton) won the 1994 championships. They didnt get much recognition and started believing they should and could win again under their own marque. The Jaguar brand was chosen for marketing reasons I reckon but essentially Ford believed they could win again.

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 22 Jan 2010, 16:41

coops wrote:I think its all started when a Ford engine (in the back of MSCs Benetton) won the 1994 championships. They didnt get much recognition and started believing they should and could win again under their own marque. The Jaguar brand was chosen for marketing reasons I reckon but essentially Ford believed they could win again.

That was mostly their own fault anyway. Renault did a much better job of marketing their F1 success back then - maybe because they used the Williams-Renault branding outside of F1, for example the Williams Renault Clio and Renault Espace F1 car (about 2000 of the former were produced in its 3 evolutions - the latter was a prototype with the F1 V10 engine in the middle) to show off their success.
And it all comes back to the whole European thing...Renault, the French company, seems to have known what they were doing from the start (albeit they found it hard to start with in the early 80s...) compared to Ford, the American giant, who can only do something right when they pay the Europeans to do it for them (Cosworth DFV, Stewart GP, etc).

Collieafc · Post by **Collieafc** » 22 Jan 2010, 17:05

kostas22 wrote:And it all comes back to the whole European thing...Renault, the French company, seems to have known what they were doing from the start (albeit they found it hard to start with in the early 80s...) compared to Ford, the American giant, who can only do something right when they pay the Europeans to do it for them (Cosworth DFV, Stewart GP, etc).

Dont forget the GT-40...

Really, the whole issue was the start of manufacture involvement in F1. I also dont think its just coincidence that the bigger the manufacture budget, the bigger the failure. Take Renault, BMW, Toyota and Honda. Renault had the smallest budget yet won 2 titles. BMW were 2nd smallest, and although they only got one victory, they were regular podium and eventually title contenders, and were generally realistic about their aims (the only exception to this whole thing was their 2009 car). Then you have Toyota and Honda who only managed one (lucky) win between them.Toyota were always in the midfield, and Honda got worse as time went! (the fact that Super Aguri, the unofficial B team almost scored more points one season says it all). I would expect the budgets for Toyota to be big to begin with, as they were starting from scratch (unlike the other manufacturers who bought into other teams) but they quickly went stale, thanks to the fact they changed technical teams every 1/2 season. As for Honda, they were too busy pissing their budget away on that green earth livery...

Morale of the story? Leave the Formula 1 to those who know, live and work Formula 1. If you really want to be involved, by all means buy out a team, but dont try and meddle with it. As I have stated before, Mercedes seem to be doing this by just paying Ross Brawn to change the teams name, but leaving him to run it. (Although time will tell if this is true or not...) Also, more money means more ways to throw it away , thanks to less accountability (Was it Flav who mentioned something about teams spending $100million on a shopping trolley if they had a chance? Something like that?)

shinji · Post by **shinji** » 22 Jan 2010, 20:15

They were Onyx, just with higher expectations.

Looking promising before an investment, a name change and a sharp drop in performance due to haphazard team management.

fjackdaw · Post by **fjackdaw** » 22 Jan 2010, 21:05

coops wrote:
Phoenix wrote:Not only him...Justin Wilson.

And that was a shame too. Hadnt Wilson beaten Webber to the F3000 title previously?

I think the problem was that Eddie Irvine had advised Wilson just to take it easy during his handful of races - don't do anything spectacular, just bring the car home. Wilson did that, got nowhere, and was dropped. He even complained afterwards that he could have done much better. Moral - don't listen to that idiot Irvine.