FIA confirms new F1 superlicence points system

Post by **Bobby Doorknobs** » 06 Jan 2015, 15:30

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2015/01/06/f ... ts-system/

Interesting to see F2 being brought back, but some of these points allocations are weird. GP2 is worth more than IndyCar, IndyCar is worth as much as European F3 and European F3 is worth more than GP3 and FR3.5.

Also, here are some drivers who would not have made it into F1 when they did, had this system been in place at the time.

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 06 Jan 2015, 16:03

Simtek wrote:http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2015/01/06/fia-confirms-new-2016-f1-superlicence-points-system/

Interesting to see F2 being brought back, but some of these points allocations are weird. GP2 is worth more than IndyCar, IndyCar is worth as much as European F3 and European F3 is worth more than GP3 and FR3.5.

Also, here are some drivers that would not have made into F1 when they did, had this system been in place at the time.

Having read this on Autosport (which has a full table of points to be issued), I find it wrong that FIA European F3 is worth the same as IndyCar and WEC LMP1, and four times that of national F3 (which itself is equal in points to national F4, which is supposedly a rung below on the ladder)...

Salamander · Post by **Salamander** » 06 Jan 2015, 16:23

Simtek wrote:Also, here are some drivers who would not have made it into F1 when they did, had this system been in place at the time.

More interestingly, Michael Schumacher would not have been able to make his debut at the tail end of 1991 - he would've had 31 points or so.

It sounds good in theory, but the points allocation and requirements are farcical. Especially ranking Formula Renault 3.5 - a series widely considered on par with GP2, below Formula goddamn Three.

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 06 Jan 2015, 16:38

dr-baker wrote:
Simtek wrote:http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2015/01/06/fia-confirms-new-2016-f1-superlicence-points-system/

Interesting to see F2 being brought back, but some of these points allocations are weird. GP2 is worth more than IndyCar, IndyCar is worth as much as European F3 and European F3 is worth more than GP3 and FR3.5.

Also, here are some drivers that would not have made into F1 when they did, had this system been in place at the time.

Having read this on Autosport (which has a full table of points to be issued), I find it wrong that FIA European F3 is worth the same as IndyCar and WEC LMP1, and four times that of national F3 (which itself is equal in points to national F4, which is supposedly a rung below on the ladder)...

So FIA is bumping up its series? I am completely not shocked. Still, the others all have a logical reason behind it if you take into account recent history. In case of FR3.5, very recent history. GP2 still provides most drivers so it is only fair it is up there while FR3.5 have been mostly supplying GP2 of late so there is a bit of reasoning behind their evenly placement with GP3. As for Indycar, they never saw one of their former drivers join F1 after leaving them. Only Champ Car did and it was before the merge.

Salamander · Post by **Salamander** » 06 Jan 2015, 17:04

DanielPT wrote:FR3.5 have been mostly supplying GP2 of late

Uhhhh, the last 2 FR3.5 champions have immediately gone to F1. Bianchi got his 2013 break off of the back of his 2012 runner-up season in the series, having moved there from GP2. Vergne and Ricciardo also both finished runner-up in 2011 and 2010 respectively, the years before their F1 debuts.

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 06 Jan 2015, 17:35

Salamander wrote:
DanielPT wrote:FR3.5 have been mostly supplying GP2 of late

Uhhhh, the last 2 FR3.5 champions have immediately gone to F1. Bianchi got his 2013 break off of the back of his 2012 runner-up season in the series, having moved there from GP2. Vergne and Ricciardo also both finished runner-up in 2011 and 2010 respectively, the years before their F1 debuts.

No question there. Sure there are exceptions. Now let's see how many of them went to GP2 instead. Just last year you have Stoffel Vandoorne, André Negrão and Arthur Pic. Marco Sorensen and Pierre Gasly also joined the series midway through the year and although they still ended the season in FR3.5 they are expected to keep driving in GP2. In 2013 Sam Bird went back to GP2 and was joined by Alexander Rossi and Daniel Abt. 2012 FR3.5 champion Robin Frijns also got his GP2 first taste midway through that season. All these names come only from 2013 and 2014. Did they had any success in going to GP2 from FR3.5? None that I can recall but that is an all different matter.

Salamander · Post by **Salamander** » 06 Jan 2015, 18:22

Vandoorne had nothing to gain by staying in FR3.5. Andre Negrao and Arthur Pic had both spent 3 years in the series and gotten largely nowhere, as has Marco Sorensen. Robin Frijns' attempts in GP2 last season were pretty much his only way of keeping his name in the frame for an F1 drive, given that as an FR3.5 champion he couldn't return to the series. I wouldn't really count Daniel Abt's half-season in 2012 as anything representative, given that it was during that same season that he finished 2nd in GP3, making a move to GP2 logical. Bird switched to FR3.5 from GP2 before switching back.

I think there are a lot of extenuating circumstances that have to be taken into account here, and when doing that, it doesn't really seem that there is much of a trend besides drivers spending years getting nowhere, hoping that a move elsewhere will help them move forwards.

Post by **Miguel98** » 06 Jan 2015, 18:24

So, what I get from this, is that systems allows more Max Verstappen's to happen in near future? *insert psyduck picture here*

Salamander · Post by **Salamander** » 06 Jan 2015, 18:28

Miguel98 wrote:So, what I get from this, is that systems allows more Max Verstappen's to happen in near future? *insert psyduck picture here*

... that is literally the opposite of what this allows. If these rules were enforceable for 2015, Verstappen would fail to get into F1 on three counts:

He would not be old enough, as drivers will need to be at least 18 years old
He would not have enough experience, as he has only 1 season in junior single-seater categories instead of 2
He would only have 20 of the required 40 points needed to qualify for a superlicense

AndreaModa · Post by **AndreaModa** » 06 Jan 2015, 18:48

The whole thing is a big "f*** you" to Renault and it's championships, and basically forces drivers into the FOM-run feeder series of GP3 and GP2, or even more biased, the FIA's own series, of which the top one doesn't even exist yet. I'm certain these values will be tweaked, it's like they've not even tried to hide their biases.

Cynon · Post by **Cynon** » 06 Jan 2015, 18:49

It's a stupid system. It takes all the fun out of the backmarkers potentially hiring someone completely incapable, like Ide or Deletraz.

IIRC Paul di Resta did fine in F1, but he wouldn't be eligible...

Post by **Bobby Doorknobs** » 06 Jan 2015, 18:50

AndreaModa wrote:The whole thing is a big "f*** you" to Renault and it's championships, and basically forces drivers into the FOM-run feeder series of GP3 and GP2, or even more biased, the FIA's own series, of which the top one doesn't even exist yet. I'm certain these values will be tweaked, it's like they've not even tried to hide their biases.

This.

Here's a list of drivers eligible for a superlicence next year under the new points system. Guess who has the most points. :mrgreen:

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 06 Jan 2015, 18:53

Salamander wrote:I think there are a lot of extenuating circumstances that have to be taken into account here, and when doing that, it doesn't really seem that there is much of a trend besides drivers spending years getting nowhere, hoping that a move elsewhere will help them move forwards.

Regardless of the circumstances they still supplied more drivers to GP2 than to F1 or any other single seater series (that I know of). If we take the circumstances into account it is even worse for FR3.5. The fact that those drivers spending years getting nowhere in FR3.5 prefer to switch to GP2 while those spending years getting nowhere in GP2 prefer to stay in GP2 until they are booted out suggests that GP2 is still ahead of FR3.5. Do I agree with the position in the points system of FR3.5? No, but I admit there is a bit of reasoning behind it. Another reason might be the fact that GP3 and F3 drivers lately seem to get the nod ahead of FR3.5 drivers in certain F1 teams may indicate that this series is losing its status somewhat.

Backmarker · Post by **Backmarker** » 06 Jan 2015, 19:17

Rather ridiculous that a series that doesn't exist is given greater weighting than all series that do, including the senior endurance series.

Maybe they're going to take the old glorified Formula Palmer Audi F2 chassis out of mothballs.

Collieafc · Post by **Collieafc** » 06 Jan 2015, 19:23

I can see some sort of reasoning from the FIA - as much as we are discussing how some young guns may be delayed in their entry into F1, it penalises pay drivers more as now you have to be a winner (or at least have had sustained reasonable success) to get an F1 seat. Less Marcus Ericsson's and more Robert Frijns, if you will. It may in the long term even help more young and successfull drivers into F1 once older drivers retire and current pay drivers run out of cash.

That being said, it could have been better executed. Di Reista wasnt amazing but he was certainly better than nul points, and Riccardo has proved that its still possible to (Somewhat) work your way up the grid

WeirdKerr · Post by **WeirdKerr** » 06 Jan 2015, 19:38

Strange to see that Formula E doesn't even count.... :lol:

andrew2209 · Post by **andrew2209** » 06 Jan 2015, 20:11

WeirdKerr wrote:Strange to see that Formula E doesn't even count....

Formula E doesn't strike me as a series drivers are going to use to move up the ladder, if anything it almost exists in it's own bubble.

Post by **mario** » 06 Jan 2015, 21:16

AndreaModa wrote:The whole thing is a big "f*** you" to Renault and it's championships, and basically forces drivers into the FOM-run feeder series of GP3 and GP2, or even more biased, the FIA's own series, of which the top one doesn't even exist yet. I'm certain these values will be tweaked, it's like they've not even tried to hide their biases.

I have to agree that, whilst the FIA did need to update their requirements given that some of the series that used to be eligible for superlicences no longer exist, the way in which it has been done presents an obvious conflict of interest and is a pretty unsubtle way for the FIA to try and force drivers to compete in certain series.

As others have pointed out, there are a number of quite competent drivers who would not have been able to enter into F1 under such clauses - di Resta, for example, demonstrated his competence through Friday practise sessions, as did Vergne, and I doubt few would argue that Ricciardo has not shown his abilities either.

Looking at the arrangements, one party that potentially ends up worse off is Red Bull - their Young Driver program has been geared around putting drivers through Formula Renault, particularly Formula Renault 3.5 instead of GP2. The new arrangements make Formula Renault 2.0 almost worthless (just 5 points for the championship winner), and the lower than expected value on FR3.5 means that a driver would either have to have doubled up with Formula 3, compete for a second season in FR3.5 in order to rack up enough points or shift across to GP2/F2, all of which financially benefits the FIA and FOM. I can't imagine that Red Bull will be too pleased about that prospect...

UncreativeUsername37 · Post by **UncreativeUsername37** » 06 Jan 2015, 21:20

>FR3.5 third-tier series
Try again.

Post by **Frogfoot9013** » 06 Jan 2015, 21:29

Being a big IndyCar fan, I think placing it on the same level as GODDAMN Euro F3 is absolutely DISGRACEFUL. :evil:

I've always believed IndyCar is as close as you can get to F1 without being F1, it should be the most important one. And why bother creating a new F2 championship? Wouldn't it be slightly easier to just try and fix up GP2? :roll:

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 06 Jan 2015, 21:35

andrew2209 wrote:
WeirdKerr wrote:Strange to see that Formula E doesn't even count....

Formula E doesn't strike me as a series drivers are going to use to move up the ladder, if anything it almost exists in it's own bubble.

This is an interesting point, as I had thought I read somewhere that FE was a project that Jean Todt was keen on and was keen to see come to fruition. So for it to not be on the list is kinda strange, given the bias to FIA series and that this series had the FIA president's blessing...

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 06 Jan 2015, 21:39

AndreaModa wrote:The whole thing is a big "f*** you" to Renault and it's championships, and basically forces drivers into the FOM-run feeder series of GP3 and GP2, or even more biased, the FIA's own series

FR3.5 has become horribly unstable. Teams are stepping in and out of the series, or they're only entering one car, or they're only contesting selected events, and a lot of them are relying on a revolving door of pay drivers to sustain themselves, and there is no indication that this will change any time soon. If a series has no medium- or long-term stability, then it shouldn't be a top-tier category.

Salamander · Post by **Salamander** » 06 Jan 2015, 21:53

dr-baker wrote:
andrew2209 wrote:
WeirdKerr wrote:Strange to see that Formula E doesn't even count....

Formula E doesn't strike me as a series drivers are going to use to move up the ladder, if anything it almost exists in it's own bubble.

This is an interesting point, as I had thought I read somewhere that FE was a project that Jean Todt was keen on and was keen to see come to fruition. So for it to not be on the list is kinda strange, given the bias to FIA series and that this series had the FIA president's blessing...

Perhaps it's something to do with the fact that, I don't know, the series has had a grand total of 3 races in it's entire history to date?

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 06 Jan 2015, 22:02

And the FIA want it separate from the usual open-wheel feeder series. If they made it a series worth superlicence points, they would risk undermining the series by turning it into another feeder series rather than a genuine platform for the development of electric vehicles.

Anyway, here is a list of all of the drivers who would be eligible for a superlicence this year:

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2015/01/06/w ... next-year/

Some of the ineligible drivers are downright embarrassing.

Nessafox · Post by **Nessafox** » 06 Jan 2015, 22:42

Also interesting that Auto GP is not considered as a legit feeder series. But not surprising considering Enzo Coloni doesn't seem to be best friends with the FIA.
But this sure might mean Auto GP becomes even less interesting for aspiring drivers.

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 06 Jan 2015, 22:44

The only problem is that statement assumes it was interesting to begin with.

Warren Hughes · Post by **Warren Hughes** » 06 Jan 2015, 22:55

F1RWRS was doing restrictive superlicense requirements before it was cool.

Salamander · Post by **Salamander** » 06 Jan 2015, 23:17

Captain Hammer wrote:The only problem is that statement assumes it was interesting to begin with.

With drivers like Kimiya "Fake" Sato, Tamas Pal Kiss, Markus Pommer, Kevin Giovesi, Giuseppe Cipriani, and the legend that is Salvatore de Plano? How could it not be interesting?

Post by **Frogfoot9013** » 06 Jan 2015, 23:20

Salamander wrote:
Captain Hammer wrote:The only problem is that statement assumes it was interesting to begin with.

With drivers like Kimiya "Fake" Sato, Tamas Pal Kiss, Markus Pommer, Kevin Giovesi, Giuseppe Cipriani, and the legend that is Salvatore de Plano? How could it not be interesting?

You forgot about Antonio Pizzonia!

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 07 Jan 2015, 04:56

I'm very curious to see how the FIA structure this new Formula 2 championship. The biggest problem with GP2 is that its ranks are full of pay drivers to the point where Formula 1 teams are recruiting drivers like Kvyat and Bottas straight out of GP3. If the trend continues, the GP2 is just going to become a dumping ground for drivers who never quite made it to Formula 1.

Yes, there are accusations that the FIA is trying to marginalise the likes of Formula Renault, and to a certain extent they are. But championships like Formula Renault and GP2 are run by commercial entities outside the FIA. They're free to run their championships how they choose. But by keeping the premier series under their own control, the FIA will have full control over the costs of those series. Not only will Formula 2/3/4 be cheaper, but the bias in earning superlicence points will require more talented drivers. I suspect the FIA is trying to create a situation where there are a whole lot of talented drivers with no financial strings attached, putting pressure on Formula 1 teams to cut costs.

CoopsII · Post by **CoopsII** » 07 Jan 2015, 08:11

Under the new rules Ayrton Senna wouldn't have made it into F1 in 1984 :lol:

tBone · Post by **tBone** » 07 Jan 2015, 08:58

I've picked some drivers from the past few years and investigated whether they would get a super license at the time.
Because some classes were replaced or do not exist any more, I made the following assumptions:
Formula 3000 = GP2
IRL and CART = IndyCar
World Series by Nissan/Formula Nissan/Euro Open by Nissan = Formula Renault 3.5

In order of points they would have at their debut:
Lucas di Grassi 100
Lewis Hamilton 98
Juan Pablo Montoya 92
Mark Webber 70
Vitantonio Liuzzi 70
Nico Rosberg 63
Fernando Alonso 50
Jacques Villeneuve 46
Bruno Senna 45
Ricardo Rosset 41
Adrian Sutil 40
Yuji Ide 32
Robert Doornbos 32
Marc Gene 30
Pedro de la Rosa 21
Jaime Alguersuari 18
Takuma Sato 17
Kimi Raikkonen 10
Jenson Button 10
Gaston Mazzacane 0
Alex Yoong 0

I think this shows the system isn't really balanced. Di Grassi, Liuzzi, Senna and Rosset did definitely not look that much better than De la Rosa, Alguersuari, Sato, Raikkonen and Button at their debut, did they? Also, Ide would probably have needed just one more decent Formula Nippon season.

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 07 Jan 2015, 09:59

Frogfoot9013 wrote:
Salamander wrote:
Captain Hammer wrote:The only problem is that statement assumes it was interesting to begin with.

With drivers like Kimiya "Fake" Sato, Tamas Pal Kiss, Markus Pommer, Kevin Giovesi, Giuseppe Cipriani, and the legend that is Salvatore de Plano? How could it not be interesting?

You forgot about Antonio Pizzonia!

And all of them pale into insignificance when compared to Michela Cerruti!

Post by **Bobby Doorknobs** » 07 Jan 2015, 10:59

tBone wrote:Gaston Mazzacane 0
Alex Yoong 0

Salamander · Post by **Salamander** » 07 Jan 2015, 11:03

tBone wrote:I've picked some drivers from the past few years and investigated whether they would get a super license at the time.

All of which pale in comparison to Nico Hulkenberg and his mammoth 110 points, highest of any F1 regular that I know of. Of course, Andre Lotterer will remain untouchable at 132, but we all know Lotterer is of best.

tBone · Post by **tBone** » 07 Jan 2015, 11:09

Simtek wrote:
tBone wrote:Gaston Mazzacane 0
Alex Yoong 0

Is this a proof that Yuji Ide actually was infinitely better than those two? :lol:

watka · Post by **watka** » 07 Jan 2015, 13:28

tBone wrote:
Simtek wrote:
tBone wrote:Jenson Button 10

Is this a proof that Yuji Ide had the potential to be a triple world champion?

Fixed.

I'm actually reasonably happy with system. Yes, there are some talented drivers who do/would have missed out based on this system, but what I like is that there is a clearer career ladder for a young driver and key markers which drivers must prove themselves against. It places emphasis on results rather than having the proverbial silver spoon of sponsorship cash or the backing of a driver programme. It penalises Formula Renault for sure, but Formula Renault shouldn't even have to exist in the first place as for me there should be a logical ladder of FFord/F4 -> National F3 -> International F3 -> F2/GP2 -> F1. GP2 (and to a lesser extent, Indycar) should just be the series that has the best young drivers outside of F1 plain and simple; I'm not a fan of having the waters muddied by multiple series.

One thing I would change is to have a minimum championship finishing requirement for each series, e.g. you can't get into F1 by finishing 7th in GP2 for 3 seasons running and collecting the license points, instead you'd need to finish in the top 5 in GP2 at least once in that string of seasons. That would hinder any pay drivers who quite happily sit in GP2 for 4 or 5 seasons who clearly don't have the talent for F1.

Am I going against the reject spirit? Probably, but we're not in the 90s any more where there are an abundance of seats available. Competition is high and for every seat taken by a pay driver, a good driver is clearly missing out. Furthermore, since the demise of Caterham, Marussia and HRT there are no obvious backmarker teams (okay, arguably Sauber) whose performance would be negligibly affected by having a pay driver over a talent (hence, why I'm fine with Ericsson being at Caterham, but not so much him higher up the grid).

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 07 Jan 2015, 13:32

Perhaps that could be solved by the introduction of a second-tier licence - a prerequisite of a superlicence and needed to get into the top feeder series.

AxelP800 · Post by **AxelP800** » 07 Jan 2015, 13:44

I don't get the logic at all. If it stays like this, will F1 survive?

pi314159 · Post by **pi314159** » 07 Jan 2015, 20:50

I wonder how some fans assume that it will some the perceived pay-driver issue. Seriously, any team who can afford it would go for the more talented over the pay-driver. When teams are dependent on pay-drivers, throwing out the pay-drivers solves absolutely nothing. It also seems to go against the promotion of Verstappen to F1. While I doubt that the move is good for a 17-year old, I fail to see how it is a problem for the series. This change is a classic FIA over-reaction to an overrated issue.