BernieMania is running wild again, brother!

[Londoner]

(I apologise profusely for the title of this thread, it was WrestleMania last night and all )

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/mar/29/bernie-ecclestone-grand-prix-women

But yes, Bernie is not only advocating a women's championship series, he's seemingly taking ideas from the Alt-F1 series in the PMMF, by having two F1 races at the weekend in addition to the women's race. And you know what, I'd actually be in favour of having two races per weekend, crazy as it sounds. I can't see the proposals ever working out, mind you.

Discuss.

[CoopsII]

In principal, anything that could interest more women in motorsport gets my vote, I'm just not sure this would for a variety of reasons. For a start, can you imagine the standard of racing if this was starting next week? Carmen Jorda is hardly likely to make the case for female advancement in motor-racing if her career to date is anything to go by. Then the usual suspects; Patrick is highly unlikely to abandon top-flight racing in the US even if it is for the cause of the sisterhood. Wolff, well, the juries out on how good she is with most people thinking she's incredibly average. So.....de Silvestrowinslol. Or something (note to self - don't try to be down with the kids).

Finally, and this is what old bezzers like Bernie will never understand, the creation of this sort of series would firmly cement the drivers competing as second rate, a level below the men in the real motorsport, and the women drivers of the future, who may just break the mould of those I mentioned above, will be consigned to forever compete in their championship. Away from the real one.

[watka]

Finally, and this is what old bezzers like Bernie will never understand, the creation of this sort of series would firmly cement the drivers competing as second rate, a level below the men in the real motorsport, and the women drivers of the future, who may just break the mould of those I mentioned above, will be consigned to forever compete in their championship. Away from the real one.

I think this is the point right here. A separate championship sends out a clear message that "women are inferior".

The only way to achieve equality would be to have more women coming into the sport in the first place. At least that is what the likes of Carmen Jorda are encouraging even if they are naff themselves. Development as a driver starts at a very early age these days so parents would need to pay up for their little girl to race in karting if they want her to be successful - something that is quite simply counter-cultural, although gratefully is becoming more of a thing. If there were, from this point forward, the same number of boys and girls entering into bottom-rung motorsport, I see no reason why the Formula 1 grid would not be a 50:50 gender split in 15 years time, based on driving ability alone.

[Wallio]

I guess we know where Turbo girl went, she's working for Bernie!

But yea, a separate championship would stifle growth. No one would advance to "real F1" since they have "their own" series. Plus the level of competition right now, as has been pointed out would be......rough.

[dr-baker]

For those who are arguing that women would not progress to "real F1" if they had their own series... For crying out loud, already they have not been progressing into F1. In the whole history of the series, there have been over 800 drivers, of which there have been just 5 females. Of those 5 females, only once have two entered the same race (1976 British GP at Brands), and only two of whom have ever qualified. The last female entry was in 1992 (over 20 years ago) and the last time a woman qualified was in August 1976 (nearly FOURTY years ago). So to have a separate women's championship may actually put them in front of an audience who may then be more willing to risk putting a female driver into the "main" championship race.

And if each team enters one driver each, 10 drivers would be needed. Who may they be? Off the top of my head (even vaguely realistic):
Michela Cerruti
Katherine Legge
Simona de Silvestro
Beitske Visser
Carmen Jorda
Susie Wolff

Erm, and now I'm struggling to think of anybody else who would be even vaguely plausible to accept a high-level drive in Europe. That's the real problem...

[Klon]

But yes, Bernie is not only advocating a women's championship series, he's seemingly taking ideas from the Alt-F1 series in the PMMF, by having two F1 races at the weekend in addition to the women's race.

Well, since I stole the idea from Flavio Briatore, I won't give him minus points for that. Other than that, his ideas are bollocks as usual. If women wanted to be in motorsport, there'd be more and if they were skilled enough, they would make it. We had an all-women series once, was a total financial bust. No need to force equality (read: added privileges for women without additional responsibilites) on something where there's no need to.

[Bobby Doorknobs]

Erm, and now I'm struggling to think of anybody else who would be even vaguely plausible to accept a high-level drive in Europe. That's the real problem...

You could add Alice Powell to that list.

[Aerond]

For those who are arguing that women would not progress to "real F1" if they had their own series... For crying out loud, already they have not been progressing into F1. In the whole history of the series, there have been over 800 drivers, of which there have been just 5 females. Of those 5 females, only once have two entered the same race (1976 British GP at Brands), and only two of whom have ever qualified. The last female entry was in 1992 (over 20 years ago) and the last time a woman qualified was in August 1976 (nearly FOURTY years ago). So to have a separate women's championship may actually put them in front of an audience who may then be more willing to risk putting a female driver into the "main" championship race.

And if each team enters one driver each, 10 drivers would be needed. Who may they be? Off the top of my head (even vaguely realistic):
Michela Cerruti
Katherine Legge
Simona de Silvestro
Beitske Visser
Carmen Jorda

Erm, and now I'm struggling to think of anybody else who would be even vaguely plausible to accept a high-level drive in Europe. That's the real problem...

Eeeerm, you fail to mention the one in your own avatar

[dr-baker]

For those who are arguing that women would not progress to "real F1" if they had their own series... For crying out loud, already they have not been progressing into F1. In the whole history of the series, there have been over 800 drivers, of which there have been just 5 females. Of those 5 females, only once have two entered the same race (1976 British GP at Brands), and only two of whom have ever qualified. The last female entry was in 1992 (over 20 years ago) and the last time a woman qualified was in August 1976 (nearly FOURTY years ago). So to have a separate women's championship may actually put them in front of an audience who may then be more willing to risk putting a female driver into the "main" championship race.

And if each team enters one driver each, 10 drivers would be needed. Who may they be? Off the top of my head (even vaguely realistic):
Michela Cerruti
Katherine Legge
Simona de Silvestro
Beitske Visser
Carmen Jorda

Erm, and now I'm struggling to think of anybody else who would be even vaguely plausible to accept a high-level drive in Europe. That's the real problem...

Eeeerm, you fail to mention the one in your own avatar

Well, I thought she would be obvious.

Erm, and now I'm struggling to think of anybody else who would be even vaguely plausible to accept a high-level drive in Europe. That's the real problem...

You could add Alice Powell to that list.

Unless you're Max Verstappen, you are unlikely to jump into F1 from her position on the career ladder.

[Warren Hughes]

Finally, and this is what old bezzers like Bernie will never understand, the creation of this sort of series would firmly cement the drivers competing as second rate, a level below the men in the real motorsport, and the women drivers of the future, who may just break the mould of those I mentioned above, will be consigned to forever compete in their championship. Away from the real one.

I think this is the point right here. A separate championship sends out a clear message that "women are inferior".

The only way to achieve equality would be to have more women coming into the sport in the first place. At least that is what the likes of Carmen Jorda are encouraging even if they are naff themselves. Development as a driver starts at a very early age these days so parents would need to pay up for their little girl to race in karting if they want her to be successful - something that is quite simply counter-cultural, although gratefully is becoming more of a thing. If there were, from this point forward, the same number of boys and girls entering into bottom-rung motorsport, I see no reason why the Formula 1 grid would not be a 50:50 gender split in 15 years time, based on driving ability alone.

The bit in bold I don't really agree with - in the specific case of Carmen Jorda - for this reason: if I was a young, female, aspiring racing driver, I would see Carmen Jorda in the Lotus garage and think my best chance of getting to the top level would be by looking like a supermodel rather than by driving fast. It's so obvious that she's only there because of her looks and gender and not her talent that I find it hard to see how she can be a role model for girls looking to get into racing.

Sorry if this post's gone over ground that's already been covered on this forum, I've only been back a few days

[wsrgo]

Rahel Frey? I still have a kind of a crush on her...Sorry, I just had to say that.

[mario]

Finally, and this is what old bezzers like Bernie will never understand, the creation of this sort of series would firmly cement the drivers competing as second rate, a level below the men in the real motorsport, and the women drivers of the future, who may just break the mould of those I mentioned above, will be consigned to forever compete in their championship. Away from the real one.

I think this is the point right here. A separate championship sends out a clear message that "women are inferior".

The only way to achieve equality would be to have more women coming into the sport in the first place. At least that is what the likes of Carmen Jorda are encouraging even if they are naff themselves. Development as a driver starts at a very early age these days so parents would need to pay up for their little girl to race in karting if they want her to be successful - something that is quite simply counter-cultural, although gratefully is becoming more of a thing. If there were, from this point forward, the same number of boys and girls entering into bottom-rung motorsport, I see no reason why the Formula 1 grid would not be a 50:50 gender split in 15 years time, based on driving ability alone.

I agree with you that it would be far more effective for efforts to be put into encouraging a greater number of women to enter the sport at a junior level, thereby widening the overall talent pool.

You're not going to suddenly create large numbers of female racing drivers overnight - even if you started now, it wouldn't be until 10 or 15 years down the line that such a campaign began to deliver results in terms of increased female participation.
After all, how many female racing drivers are there coming up through the ranks who could compete in such a series in, say, five years time once the current generation of female racing drivers start to retire? If there are no decent long term prospects, I can't see anybody wanting to invest for the longer term - and you need long term initiatives rather than short term gimmicks to make a definite difference.

[AndreaModa]

Finally, and this is what old bezzers like Bernie will never understand, the creation of this sort of series would firmly cement the drivers competing as second rate, a level below the men in the real motorsport, and the women drivers of the future, who may just break the mould of those I mentioned above, will be consigned to forever compete in their championship. Away from the real one.

I think this is the point right here. A separate championship sends out a clear message that "women are inferior".

This is precisely what I thought when I first saw the announcement. Institutionalises a tiered system where the top league is for boys and the lower league is for girls. In sports where the physical advantage of being a male is dominant (rugby, football, etc) then fair enough, you need separate competitions, at the very least for safety.

But for sports like F1 you don't. Once the helmet goes on you could be a three-eyed alien from Mars - as long as you drive the car damn fast it's irrelevant.

People who overly push the whole gender issue are their own worst enemies. If they shut up and take an ambivalent view to the whole thing, and judge neither way, then they are being truly impartial, and truly equal. By getting all worked up about how long it's been since we last had a woman driving or the lack of participation, it's very easy to swing too far in the other direction and over-react. You ultimately end up with teams pushing women who are clearly unsuitable for a full time drive into pointless roles - Jorda and Wolff being the classic examples. Those two posing in the pit lane do more harm than good if you're trying to get more women driving. In a way because they are just stood there due to their lesser ability, it reinforces the belief that women aren't cut out for the highest level. The best they can hope for is to get an invite from a cash-strapped team to wear a tight t-shirt and hot pants at every race. They're no better and no closer to an F1 drive than the grid girls.

I'm not saying no action is needed here, there could definitely be more done to encourage girls into motorsport, but there becomes a point where you have to accept that 90% of girls couldn't give a flying f*** about driving cars fast because it's not something that interests them. Yes, give those that are interested every opportunity to achieve, but I don't think that's the argument here is it? There's no evidence that I know of where a girl has lost out on a seat to a guy purely on gender alone. As I said, if the person is quick, it's irrelevant what gender they are. And providing that is what is being followed, particularly in the junior formulae, then no real action is needed. The cream will rise to the top.

[Waris]

This thing would maybe work if the champion got an F1 drive. Not a mere test drive, an actual race seat. Otherwise, nah.

[CaptainGetz12]

This is precisely what I thought when I first saw the announcement. Institutionalises a tiered system where the top league is for boys and the lower league is for girls. In sports where the physical advantage of being a male is dominant (rugby, football, etc) then fair enough, you need separate competitions, at the very least for safety.

But for sports like F1 you don't. Once the helmet goes on you could be a three-eyed alien from Mars - as long as you drive the car damn fast it's irrelevant.

People who overly push the whole gender issue are their own worst enemies. If they shut up and take an ambivalent view to the whole thing, and judge neither way, then they are being truly impartial, and truly equal. By getting all worked up about how long it's been since we last had a woman driving or the lack of participation, it's very easy to swing too far in the other direction and over-react. You ultimately end up with teams pushing women who are clearly unsuitable for a full time drive into pointless roles - Jorda and Wolff being the classic examples. Those two posing in the pit lane do more harm than good if you're trying to get more women driving. In a way because they are just stood there due to their lesser ability, it reinforces the belief that women aren't cut out for the highest level. The best they can hope for is to get an invite from a cash-strapped team to wear a tight t-shirt and hot pants at every race. They're no better and no closer to an F1 drive than the grid girls.

I'm not saying no action is needed here, there could definitely be more done to encourage girls into motorsport, but there becomes a point where you have to accept that 90% of girls couldn't give a flying f*** about driving cars fast because it's not something that interests them. Yes, give those that are interested every opportunity to achieve, but I don't think that's the argument here is it? There's no evidence that I know of where a girl has lost out on a seat to a guy purely on gender alone. As I said, if the person is quick, it's irrelevant what gender they are. And providing that is what is being followed, particularly in the junior formulae, then no real action is needed. The cream will rise to the top.

But is the "physical difference" problem not applicable here? F1 cars are certainly not easy cars to drive, as much as they seem to be today. In the "is F1 too easy? " thread there was a discussion about F1 drivers having to be very well trained physically to even compete in modern-day machines. If that is the case, then perhaps the current caliber of F1 cars are tuned for the male standard, a standard that few women, if any, could be competitive against?

I do agree with the fact that having women in the paddock simply for fanservice could hurt this image for women entering the sport. A certain female driver in NASCAR these days already proved that to me IMO... (Though I do agree with Kyle Petty on the fact that women are very useful as marketing tools. perhaps better than any pay-driver ever could in terms of providing revenue for the team)

[CoopsII]

But is the "physical difference" problem not applicable here? F1 cars are certainly not easy cars to drive, as much as they seem to be today. In the "is F1 too easy? " thread there was a discussion about F1 drivers having to be very well trained physically to even compete in modern-day machines. If that is the case, then perhaps the current caliber of F1 cars are tuned for the male standard, a standard that few women, if any, could be competitive against?

I'm not sure it is applicable these days, I think there's a requirement for stamina rather than upper body strength, if that's what you mean?

[DemocalypseNow]

But is the "physical difference" problem not applicable here? F1 cars are certainly not easy cars to drive, as much as they seem to be today. In the "is F1 too easy? " thread there was a discussion about F1 drivers having to be very well trained physically to even compete in modern-day machines. If that is the case, then perhaps the current caliber of F1 cars are tuned for the male standard, a standard that few women, if any, could be competitive against?

I'm not sure it is applicable these days, I think there's a requirement for stamina rather than upper body strength, if that's what you mean?

Indeed. With power steering, muscle mass is not at the top of the priority list. That's not to totally discount its importance, but it's not the number one factor any longer either.

Your neck needs to be able to stand the G-forces involved in the high speed cornering that the high downforce cars of today generate. The races are still reasonably long (longer than typical feeder series' races at the very least), and the conditions in the cockpit are cramped and hotter than the atmospheric conditions, so it requires much stamina. Being able to consistently perform at the same level both mentally and physically for between 100 and 120 minutes straight is vitally important.

Now, I am no expert on the human body or the differences between genders, but at least from a common sense point of view, that doesn't seem like a particular area where men would excel over females on a natural level, simply by being born into that gender. It's all about putting in the hours to maintain general fitness levels as high as possible. The fitness level in itself does not correspond to a driver's adeptness at the wheel, it merely helps them be as prepared as possible and avoid their performance suffering a decline over the course of the race.

Plus, if you are talking about natural differences in physiology between the two genders, women already begin with a headstart - their average height and weight in comparison to males gives them an advantage in ensuring the car can find a better balance - less driver weight means the extra ballast required to meet minimum weight (or perhaps just the location of components if the car is designed around a lead driver that is female) can be put where it is needed to help find a better car balance, away from the cockpit.

We don't need seperate classes for males and females. It's just women are playing against the odds in what is a numbers game. Disclaimer - None of the following numbers are accurate, they are merely estimates to demonstrate a point;
You have rookies 100 drivers per season joining the entry-level single seater feeder series (FRenault 2.0, F4 and the like). Of these, only 5 are women. Of the 100 drivers, two will make it to Formula 1. Every 5 seasons, one of these ten drivers that made it to F1 will become a world champion. Another three will win an F1 race. Look at how slim the odds that one of the five women that joined every year would go on to be a top driver in that scenario. That is the reality - there are not enough female racing drivers to expect more than one of them every few decades to be any good. We experienced the last instance of this in the 1980s - Michèle Mouton was that one female driver who made it big. She came so close to being a World Champion.

It's been 33 years since Mouton finished 2nd in the WRC Drivers' Championship, and 31 since she last stood on the podium at an official round of the WRC. We are due another world class female driver. But only one. Any more than one would simply be against the odds. It's not a case that women are automatically inferior, oh no. It's merely that there aren't enough involved in racing to begin with for there to be many instances of truly great female drivers. Either there is a major societal shift where becoming a racing driver is as popular a dream career for girls growing up as it is for boys, or the situation stays the same.

There must not be a separate championship for women. There aren't enough talented female drivers to fill such a series, because there aren't enough women drivers in general to help filter out the talented ones from the mediocre ones. In terms of the overall calibre of the field, such a series would barely rival Auto GP, and would not be justified in calling itself a counterpart to Formula 1.

[CoopsII]

http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2015/04/t ... mpionship/

Mayhap not surprisingly the lovely Carmen actually thinks it would be a good idea although in all honesty I've only posted the link because in the picture at the top of it Bernie amusingly appears to be squinting at her rack.

[dr-baker]

http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2015/04/talking-point-jorda-supports-ecclestones-idea-of-a-womens-world-championship/

Mayhap not surprisingly the lovely Carmen actually thinks it would be a good idea although in all honesty I've only posted the link because in the picture at the top of it Bernie amusingly appears to be squinting at her rack.

From the article...

Behind the scenes Ecclestone is helping her, due to a long standing relationship with her father.

So, once again, it's not what you know, it's who you know...

Plus, Carmen is looking at him thinking, "So you like what you see? Huh? Well, how do you like my fist? Huh?"

[CoopsII]

Plus, Carmen is looking at him thinking, "So you like what you see? Huh? Well, how do you like my fist? Huh?"

Bernie may love her fist....

[DanielPT]

Plus, Carmen is looking at him thinking, "So you like what you see? Huh? Well, how do you like my fist? Huh?"

Bernie may love her fist....

Max Mosley would surely love it.

[CoopsII]

Plus, Carmen is looking at him thinking, "So you like what you see? Huh? Well, how do you like my fist? Huh?"

Bernie may love her fist....

Max Mosley would surely love it.

To be fair, despite the lack of results in her racing career, I'd imagine she has quite a grip on her too.

[Faustus]

Bernie is back at it:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/118530

[Ferrim]

And I renew my calls for Bernie to go home. He's like a decade late by now.

[Bobby Doorknobs]

Bernie is back at it:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/118530

Well, nothing new there

[F1000X]

Please just die already Bernie. I'm sure Petra and Tamara are tired of being embarrassed by your criminality and insanity.

[CoopsII]

Bernie is back at it:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/118530

He's off his head, isn't he? He really does believe dive-bombing global viewing figures is as a result of quiet engines and the odd peaceful race.

[Warren Hughes]

BBC just showed an interview with Bernie by Eddie Jordan, lots of crap spouted by the senile one, but this one made me want to throw rotten tomatoes at the TV:
EJ: "Do you want them [Manor] there?"
BE: "No."

[sswishbone]

What I don't get is how evasive Graham Lowdon was to, no wonder people are losing faith in the sport if everyone is failing to keep it clear and speak the truth

[Miguel98]

BBC just showed an interview with Bernie by Eddie Jordan, lots of crap spouted by the senile one, but this one made me want to throw rotten tomatoes at the TV:
EJ: "Do you want them [Manor] there?"
BE: "No."

Like... Bernie just what the bathplug do you drink?

[IceG]

Bernie was whittering about TV audiences being turned off by quiet engines.

When did he last watch F1 on a TV? Does he really believe that the average plasma/LCD speakers can even hint at the difference between a flat-out 18,000 rpm V8 and the current V6 engines?

What turns the TV audience off is being asked to pay premium prices for something they have had for free for 30+ years. And cr*p races.

What turns manufacturers off is that no-one is watching their megabuck mobile adverts on TV.

[sswishbone]

@IceG exactly, look at China, if it wasn't for Verstappen, Button, Maldonado and Ricciardo it'd have been extremely dull!

[Fetzie]

It probably doesn't help to get female drivers into Formula One when they are turned into pin-up girls by the media as soon as they are remotely successful.

Ecclestone just needs to go. If it goes his way we won't have the German and Italian Grand Prix at all in 2 years time (good luck keeping Ferrari on board if that happens btw).

[Londoner]

Turns out Bernie is in a spot of bother with Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs...

[Londoner]

And in more Bernie happenings, he's only gone and buried Rosberg and Vettel in a interview.

It appears Bernie has been watching WWE recently, with all these "bad for business"/"best for business" remarks.

[Cynon]

And in more Bernie happenings, he's only gone and buried Rosberg and Vettel in a interview.

It appears Bernie has been watching WWE recently, with all these "bad for business"/"best for business" remarks.

He's not even trying to hide how much he loves Lewis Hamilton, isn't he? He might as well mandate that F1 play God Save the Queen every race...

[Miguel98]

Just... Bernie... These things should not be said. Ever. Especially after what we saw last year.

[tommykl]

Just... Bernie... These things should not be said. Ever. Especially after what we saw last year.

It seems that when Bernie sold Brabham and his soul to the Devil, he threw in his basic human decency to sweeten the deal...

[Londoner]

BUMP

Bernie's implied that CVC are ready to sell F1. He also claims Las Vegas has a contract for a Grand Prix...

[golic_2004]

For those who are arguing that women would not progress to "real F1" if they had their own series... For crying out loud, already they have not been progressing into F1. In the whole history of the series, there have been over 800 drivers, of which there have been just 5 females. Of those 5 females, only once have two entered the same race (1976 British GP at Brands), and only two of whom have ever qualified. The last female entry was in 1992 (over 20 years ago) and the last time a woman qualified was in August 1976 (nearly FOURTY years ago). So to have a separate women's championship may actually put them in front of an audience who may then be more willing to risk putting a female driver into the "main" championship race.

And if each team enters one driver each, 10 drivers would be needed. Who may they be? Off the top of my head (even vaguely realistic):
Michela Cerruti
Katherine Legge
Simona de Silvestro
Beitske Visser
Carmen Jorda
Susie Wolff

Erm, and now I'm struggling to think of anybody else who would be even vaguely plausible to accept a high-level drive in Europe. That's the real problem...

Alice Powell, yes
Pippa Mann, no because she prefers running on ovals