Ponderbox

AndreaModa · Post by **AndreaModa** » 15 May 2016, 16:17

With the Mercedes crash today being officially labelled as a 'racing incident' by the stewards, does this set a dangerous precedent for the future?

By that I mean, overly robust defences with compromised cars, and/or overly aggressive attempts to overtake? Or am I over-thinking it? Are moves like what both Mercedes drivers attempted today a consequence of the proliferation of tarmac run-off areas at newer circuits? And so when we get to a more traditional circuit, we witness what happened today.

When grass and gravel runoffs were more common I don't think you saw drivers going to the very edge of the track to cover off other drivers, there was more respect of the track limits. Now with this declared simply a racing incident, is what happened today acceptable? Personally I don't think it is. Neither driver should take full blame, if you're 180bhp down with a faster car closing, do you swerve and put your car on the extreme inside of the track to prevent the car behind passing? Equally, if you're the faster car approaching a slower, compromised car, do you swerve wildly to one side to pass them?

Although it was the heat of the moment, I'm not sure 'racing incident' was the right conclusion. Both drivers should have been punished for silly, rash and ultimately dangerous moves.

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 15 May 2016, 21:17

Given that you think both drivers are equally culpable (and I can see that argument), has there ever been a precedent for both drivers being punished before in a single incident?

Peteroli34 · Post by **Peteroli34** » 15 May 2016, 22:15

dr-baker wrote:Given that you think both drivers are equally culpable (and I can see that argument), has there ever been a precedent for both drivers being punished before in a single incident?

The Rosberg, Hamilton, Raikkonen Pitlane incident in Canada 2008. Both Hamilton and Rosberg recieved 10 place grid drops for France.

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 15 May 2016, 22:33

peteroli34 wrote:
dr-baker wrote:Given that you think both drivers are equally culpable (and I can see that argument), has there ever been a precedent for both drivers being punished before in a single incident?

The Rosberg, Hamilton, Raikkonen Pitlane incident in Canada 2008. Both Hamilton and Rosberg recieved 10 place grid drops for France.

That isn't true precedent though - Hamilton ran into Raikkonen, then a couple of seconds later Rosberg arrives at the scene of the accident with too much speed himself. They are essentially two separate accidents that occur close together in the same location. And in that case there are two clear perpetrators and a clear victim - Raikkonen on the receiving end and almost entirely blameless (there is a very minor argument he shouldn't have been alongside Kubica, and so Hamilton would simply have swerved into space rather than another car, but that doesn't excuse Hamilton's blatant ignorance).

UncreativeUsername37 · Post by **UncreativeUsername37** » 16 May 2016, 02:55

If Badoer actually finished fourth in 1999 Europe, Irvine would've won the championship.

Post by **Bobby Doorknobs** » 16 May 2016, 03:08

UgncreativeUsergname wrote:If Badoer actually finished fourth in 1999 Europe, Irvine would've won the championship.

It just keeps getting more painful...

Yeah, I know, Irvine wasn't exactly a great driver or anything, but it would have been a popular win around these parts! Then again, Hakkinen only winning one title doesn't sound right. Nor does Hakkinen losing to Irvine for that matter. Hmmm...

lance_rambert · Post by **lance_rambert** » 16 May 2016, 03:35

Simtek wrote:
Yeah, I know, Irvine wasn't exactly a great driver or anything, but it would have been a popular win around these parts! Then again, Hakkinen only winning one title doesn't sound right. Nor does Hakkinen losing to Irvine for that matter.

If Irvine actually won it, I'd argue that he'd be a pretty weak champion. IIRC he only won one race (don't remember which one, Austria?) on actual merit. Not counting Australia since that was due to attrition. Salo and Schumacher had to gift wins to him, didn't they?

Frentzen127 · Post by **Frentzen127** » 16 May 2016, 04:35

AndreaModa wrote:With the Mercedes crash today being officially labelled as a 'racing incident' by the stewards, does this set a dangerous precedent for the future?

By that I mean, overly robust defences with compromised cars, and/or overly aggressive attempts to overtake?

To be fair I think even Emmanuele Pirro* would be able to see the difference between today's "racing incident" and others the like of a certain MS closing the door totally without premeditation on a duo of Williams cars, or better still, that unforgettable Daly-Suranovich tangle in Monaco of all places, all of them being blatant and with compromised cars.

*Setting the bar for dubious stewardship standards.

Jan Magnussen · Post by **Rob Dylan** » 16 May 2016, 15:57

So Catalunya has the longest run to the first corner from the starting line, but which track has the shortest run?

Also out of interest, have there ever been tracks with exceptionally short runs to the first corner in F1 history?

Tank · Post by **Tank** » 16 May 2016, 15:59

Spa springs to mind...

Aguaman · Post by **Aguaman** » 16 May 2016, 16:21

lance_rambert wrote:
Simtek wrote:
Yeah, I know, Irvine wasn't exactly a great driver or anything, but it would have been a popular win around these parts! Then again, Hakkinen only winning one title doesn't sound right. Nor does Hakkinen losing to Irvine for that matter.

If Irvine actually won it, I'd argue that he'd be a pretty weak champion. IIRC he only won one race (don't remember which one, Austria?) on actual merit. Not counting Australia since that was due to attrition. Salo and Schumacher had to gift wins to him, didn't they?

Yeah but Hakkinen nearly bathplugged the whole thing. Hakkinen isn't as strong in hindsight.

girry · Post by **girry** » 16 May 2016, 17:00

Rob Dylan wrote:So Catalunya has the longest run to the first corner from the starting line, but which track has the shortest run?

Also out of interest, have there ever been tracks with exceptionally short runs to the first corner in F1 history?

I reckon it has to be Monaco?

Discounting the flat out kinks/bendy straights, I guess Clermont-Ferrand and Mosport must have some of the shortest runs to the first corner.

Frentzen127 · Post by **Frentzen127** » 16 May 2016, 17:30

Brands?

Post by **Nuppiz** » 16 May 2016, 18:02

Silverstone before the recent layout changes had a quite short run to the first corner.

lance_rambert · Post by **lance_rambert** » 16 May 2016, 18:40

Wouldn't Mexico's start-to-T1 run rival that of Catalunya's? It is pretty long.

Aguaman wrote:Yeah but Hakkinen nearly bathplugged the whole thing. Hakkinen isn't as strong in hindsight.

Indeed, but It wouldn't be Mika's fault completely if it did happen. He was pretty error prone in '99, but the McLaren being a glass rocket compared to Ferrari certainly didn't help either. It was great seeing him and Schumacher duke it out, but Schuey would definitely have the upper hand over Mika if they were stuck in the same car.

UncreativeUsername37 · Post by **UncreativeUsername37** » 16 May 2016, 23:24

Rob Dylan wrote:So Catalunya has the longest run to the first corner from the starting line, but which track has the shortest run?

Also out of interest, have there ever been tracks with exceptionally short runs to the first corner in F1 history?

Watkins Glen 1956-1970 had the start/finish immediately before the first corner. (Thanks, GPL!)

Edit: hasty crop of a frame of a YouTube video to show you what I'm talking about:

solarcold · Post by **solarcold** » 17 May 2016, 06:18

mario wrote:Well, it is a shame to lose you again so soon after you'd returned - it was always interesting to hear your viewpoint on things. Still, I am sure that it shall be for the best in the end.

It wasn't for the best. I'm so so sorry I even brang it all here, I didn't realize what I was doing, it was subconscious. I was struggling with obsessive mind, isolation and anhedonia for monthes and the day after I wrote that message I experienced a crisis and then finally realized what was going on. I wish that never happened and I'm better now. it wasn't me who wanted to leave, it was my damaged mind.

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 17 May 2016, 10:50

solarcold wrote:
mario wrote:Well, it is a shame to lose you again so soon after you'd returned - it was always interesting to hear your viewpoint on things. Still, I am sure that it shall be for the best in the end.

It wasn't for the best. I'm so so sorry I even brang it all here, I didn't realize what I was doing, it was subconscious. I was struggling with obsessive mind, isolation and anhedonia for monthes and the day after I wrote that message I experienced a crisis and then finally realized what was going on. I wish that never happened and I'm better now. it wasn't me who wanted to leave, it was my damaged mind.

I hope you're getting all the support and help that you need. And I hope that the support is ongoing, not just through the worst of times.

solarcold · Post by **solarcold** » 17 May 2016, 11:21

dr-baker wrote:I hope you're getting all the support and help that you need. And I hope that the support is ongoing, not just through the worst of times.

Thank you for the kind words. I have people to support me luckily, it's just that my self-experimenting went wrong. Let's move on, I won't bring it up again.

At least one thing was enjoyable this weekend - that is the Spanish Grand prix! (though my girlfriend got furious at Max Verstappen winning)

CoopsII · Post by **CoopsII** » 20 May 2016, 08:26

solarcold wrote:At least one thing was enjoyable this weekend - that is the Spanish Grand prix! (though my girlfriend got furious at Max Verstappen winning)

Welcome back tovarisch! Why's your GF got such a downer on Verstappen JR?

girry · Post by **girry** » 20 May 2016, 09:16

I'm not a detective, coops, but reckon it may have something to do with the nationality of the guy who became the victim of a surprise seat-swap prior to the race..?

CoopsII · Post by **CoopsII** » 20 May 2016, 09:44

giraurd wrote:I'm not a detective, coops, but reckon it may have something to do with the nationality of the guy who became the victim of a surprise seat-swap prior to the race..?

Doh! Of course. Sometimes I think it's a miracle I manage to walk upright so dense am I.

Post by **mario** » 22 May 2016, 14:11

At risk of coming across as being as grumpy as Jacques Villeneuve seems to be these days, am I the only one who thinks that it is a bit ridiculous for people to be running articles asking if Max Verstappen might now become the most successful driver of all time in the sport? http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2016/05/22/c ... f-f1-wins/

It reminds me of the fact that, not that long ago, people were making predictions that Vettel would go on to win more titles than Schumacher, and only a few years earlier people were making the same predictions about Alonso as well. Yes, Verstappen did put in a decent performance in the Spanish GP, but it seems to me to be an utterly ridiculous question at this stage of his career - most of those who make such comments were, only a few months earlier, questioning whether the sport would even survive for long enough for Verstappen to potentially rack up that many wins.

We've seen how quickly fortunes can fluctuate in this sport - we saw how, only a few years ago, there were many experts who said that Hamilton was an idiot for signing with Mercedes instead of staying with McLaren, whilst others were predicting that, after his success last year, Vettel would remould Ferrari, as Schumacher had done before him, and would be leading a title charge this season as Schumacher did in the late 1990's with the team. I know that people are perhaps desperate for good news stories in the sport, but hyping Max up this early on just feels like it will burn him out too quickly - let him at least get some more wins under his belt before writing the panegyrics about him.

Klon · Post by **Klon** » 22 May 2016, 14:57

That is the nature of sports reporting: always look for the next topic to hype. Max Verstappen just won his first race and is only 18, so he is the hottest piece of news available right now. Speculation whether he can become the GOAT are the logical consequence thereof. This is also compounded by the fact that truly predicting developments in sports is difficult without insider knowledge. Mercedes' rise with the new PU regulations was not that common a prediction before the year 2013.

This is not a Formula One-exclusive problem, it is inherent in a world where media have to produce headlines if they want to keep the money flowing. If GP Rejects was biscione's only source of income, he'd keep the clickbait flowing as well.

novitopoli · Post by **novitopoli** » 22 May 2016, 15:18

Klon wrote:This is not a Formula One-exclusive problem, it is inherent in a world where media have to produce headlines if they want to keep the money flowing. If GP Rejects was biscione's only source of income, he'd keep the clickbait flowing as well.

"You wouldn't believe which REJECT is set to come back to..."
"Five F1 engines which should have never been built"
"See how this REJECT has become a WORLD CHAMPION with one simple trick!"

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 22 May 2016, 18:35

novitopoli wrote:
Klon wrote:This is not a Formula One-exclusive problem, it is inherent in a world where media have to produce headlines if they want to keep the money flowing. If GP Rejects was biscione's only source of income, he'd keep the clickbait flowing as well.

"You wouldn't believe which REJECT is set to come back to..."
"Five F1 engines which should have never been built"
"See how this REJECT has become a WORLD CHAMPION with one simple trick!"

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 23 May 2016, 12:30

mario wrote:At risk of coming across as being as grumpy as Jacques Villeneuve seems to be these days, am I the only one who thinks that it is a bit ridiculous for people to be running articles asking if Max Verstappen might now become the most successful driver of all time in the sport? http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2016/05/22/c ... f-f1-wins/

It reminds me of the fact that, not that long ago, people were making predictions that Vettel would go on to win more titles than Schumacher, and only a few years earlier people were making the same predictions about Alonso as well. Yes, Verstappen did put in a decent performance in the Spanish GP, but it seems to me to be an utterly ridiculous question at this stage of his career - most of those who make such comments were, only a few months earlier, questioning whether the sport would even survive for long enough for Verstappen to potentially rack up that many wins.

Well, my doctor advised me that dumb articles were bad for my health so I stopped visiting f1fanatic.

Anyway, it seems like all sports these days. People are so eager for pointing out early future GOATs that barely anyone who performs successfully at some point and is young serves for that purpose. It use to happen for all the next Maradona or Pele or Messi that happens to come to by in football, sometimes hindering that youngster prospect to the point where they will spend their career "under performing".

I just hope that one day these early GOATs hypers can become real goats and go eat plastic instead of jumping the gun so blatantly.

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 23 May 2016, 13:09

So many of these GOATs are only kids...

Row Man Gross-Gene · Post by **Row Man Gross-Gene** » 23 May 2016, 15:01

dr-baker wrote:So many of these GOATs are only kids...

*slow clap*

Izzyeviel · Post by **Izzyeviel** » 23 May 2016, 17:41

dr-baker wrote:So many of these GOATs are only kids...

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 23 May 2016, 20:09

From Autosport, re: confusion around the All-Star Charlotte NASCAR race:

But with aerodynamic changes reducing downforce for Charlotte also playing a part, third-place finisher Dale Earnhardt Jr suggested the format might be a red herring.

"The intent was really positive, and the ideas were great," he offered.

"But I think the simpler we make it, the easier it is to follow.

"I was pretty confused right up until it was 13 laps to go, and then I knew 'we're racing from here to the end, and this is all the normal rules'.

"But everything before that was really out of my element.

"I just think they ought to go back to the original formats that are simple and make the cars race better.

"Gimmicks and all that stuff, trying to trick up the race, is going down the wrong path.

"The way to make the racing exciting is to make the cars exciting."

Bernie, FIA, FOTA, etc. I think Earnhardt has a point. KISS. Keep It Simple, Stupid!

watka · Post by **watka** » 26 May 2016, 21:48

Follow Max Verstappen's win last time out I've been pondering exactly who the next new GP winner might be. Here's my thoughts:

On the grid now:

Valtteri Bottas - I think the ship might have sailed for Valtteri to move to a big team. It's never good to be heavily linked to a top team (Ferrari in this case) and the move not to materialise. I can see him being a Williams main stay for a few years yet, he's been with them so long and seems happy there. Where they are now, they have a car that might just come good at a certain track and with enough retirements give him a short of victory (but not in the wet it seems). But on pure pace alone, I don't think he'll have a car any time soon to challenge. Chance to be the next new GP winner: 5/10

Sergio Perez - We all know Sergio's capabilities to make the long run work which can often see him much higher up the road than we expect based on pure pace. Malaysia 2012 also showed he's no slouch in wet conditions. In a wild race, the cards often seem to fall in his favour. He's not the talent of the century but he could be like Button and win a race on pure wile. Chance to be the next new GP winner: 5/10

Nico Hulkenberg - Not as wiley as his team-mate and like Bottas, he's been overlooked for top drives. Can be astonishingly quick in the wet and seems to love Interlagos, so that's probably his best shot. Some of the spark he had earlier in his career seems to have gone however and he often slides backwards in races rather than forwards. I think his chance is shot. Chance to be the next new GP winner: 3/10

Kevin Magnussen - His chances really depend on how much Renault can get out of their programme. I think Kevin is an excellent fit for the team and could be their lead driver for a while. He's extremely competent and has shown flashes of pace, if not consistently. Could he win a race? Well he was 2nd on his debut, so certainly. I can see him having a few chances to win in his career even if he doesn't drive for a top, top team. Will he win any time soon? Probably not. Chance to be the next new GP winner: 6/10

Jolyon Palmer - Palmer's main battle is just going to be hanging on to his drive for next season. He seems to have struggled a lot and really needs to narrow the gap to Magnussen to justify himself, Ocon is knocking loudly at the door. He's no spring chicken compared to some of the emerging talent either. Chance to be the next new GP winner: 1/10

Daniil Kvyat - He's done I'm afraid. There's no coming back from a Red Bull demotion/firing. Best he can hope for is a solid career in a midfield team now. Chance to be the next new GP winner: 0/10

Carlos Sainz Jr - Being a Red Bull junior driver seems to be all about timing. He's potentially the best thing to come out of their programme aside from Vettel and Ricciardo. He's just happened to have some torrid luck whilst the bright young thing Verstappen has come and stolen the limelight. His career now really depends on Dan Ricciardo. I can see Red Bull keeping him for another year because he is a talent, even if that is as Red Bull's reserve driver. But he'll need Dan to move on to get that Red Bull drive. Once he's there, he can win, no doubt. It's just whether he'll get the chance. Chance to be the next new GP winner: 8/10

Marcus Ericsson - are you kidding me? Chance to be the next new GP winner: 0/10

Felipe Nasr - who? Oh, the guy currently getting his butt handed to him by Marcus Ericsson. Yeah. Chance to be the next new GP winner: 0/10

Pascal Wehrlein - He is an odd one. I'm really not sure what Mercedes' aim with their young driver programme. They are the best team on the grid and I can't see them putting a youngster in their team any time soon when they can have the pick of anyone on the grid. Pascal has talent, no doubt (probably the best Manor have had since Bianchi and Glock), but isn't a prodigy. For a start, he has very little open-wheel experience - winning the DTM doesn't match up to blitzing the field in FR3.5. I just can't see what his career path is going to be. Chance to be the next new GP winner: 3/10

Rio Haryanto - He's not the worst pay driver ever...but if his sponsors don't pay up he's out. Chance to be the next new GP winner: 0/10

Others:

Stoffel Vandoorne - Perhaps I'm getting carried away (everyone did with Kevin Magnussen) but I can see this kid being the face of a resurgent McLaren. He's got one advantage over all the guys listed above; he's in a team that knows how to build a championship winning car (OK, so do Renault and Williams, but they've not exactly been near in recent history) and that team won't let him go at any cost. I think it's certain that he'll win races in his career if he sticks with McLaren and proves he's good enough. His track record is good enough; the other rookie champions in GP2? Hulkenberg, Hamilton and Rosberg. It's just a matter of how soon McLaren and Honda can gel. Chance to be the next new GP winner: 7/10

Esteban Ocon - Along with Vandoorne, possibly the likeliest driver to get a seat next year. Another Mercedes young driver, albeit with more single seater experience than Wehrlein. He seems able, but will need to prove himself before getting a big shot. One to watch, but far too early to say much. Chance to be the next new GP winner: 2/10

Pierre Gasly - Looks set to be the latest driver off of the Red Bull production line and could get a shot very soon if Red Bull decide to part with Kvyat, which is a very real possibility. He's behind Sainz in the pecking order and barring some blistering pace he'll probably be blooded at Toro Rosso for at least a season and a half. I think Sainz would have his number, especially as Gasly adapts to the car. But I could be totally wrong and Kvyat stays at Toro Rosso for the full year and Gasly bombs in GP2 and is unceremoniously dumped from the Red Bull programme. Who knows? Chance to be the next new GP winner: 4/10

CaptainGetz12 · Post by **CaptainGetz12** » 26 May 2016, 22:51

watka wrote:(see above)

I like this little chart! But what about RoGro and Gutierrez? Or Max Talent

AdrianBelmonte_ · Post by **AdrianBelmonte_** » 26 May 2016, 23:01

Rio Haryanto for the win, obviously :glasses:

Post by **tommykl** » 26 May 2016, 23:57

Not to take away from the talent of Stoffel Vandoorne, of course, but he won the GP2 title at his second attempt, not his first...

Jan Magnussen · Post by **Rob Dylan** » 27 May 2016, 11:41

I can see it being Perez. His career was on the rocks during 2013 with the disastrous season at McLaren. But two seasons at Force India he's improved and been there to capitalise on the mistakes of the top teams. I wouldn't be surprised if he gets a drive at a top team next year. And I can picture it being Ferrari. If he got something like that I could easily see him getting a win rather quickly.

watka · Post by **watka** » 27 May 2016, 11:46

tommykl wrote:Not to take away from the talent of Stoffel Vandoorne, of course, but he won the GP2 title at his second attempt, not his first...

CaptainGetz12 wrote:
watka wrote:(see above)

I like this little chart! But what about RoGro and Gutierrez? Or Max Talent

Double woops! Re: Vandoorne, the point I was really making was that in recent years the GP2 title has been won by drivers with several years of experience in the category. Vandoorne was up to speed in that series straight away.

Romain Grosjean - He is a capable race winner as shown by his days at Lotus, especially in 2013. I was convinced that he would win a race that year but the Red Bulls proved to be just too fast. It's really down to Ferrari to give him the call. He should be able to trouble Vettel more regularly than Raikkonen does, but the one question will be whether the team really get behind him. Ferrari are famously a one car team and right now that car is #5. Ferrari will always want to win the race with Vettel rather than the second car, if they can. Chance to be the next new GP winner: 8/10

Esteban Gutierrez - His is an odd situation. Generally considered not to have the potential to be a top driver, but given a second chance at Haas at the behest of Ferrari. Most would say he's not Ferrari-level material, but on the other side a lot of people said the same about Felipe Massa before he was promoted to Ferrari. It might just happen that Gutierrez finds himself in a Fezza. Ferrari can afford to be patient, they've got Vettel to lead the team and perhaps Gutierrez can learn from him. Chance to be the next new GP winner: 5/10

Row Man Gross-Gene · Post by **Row Man Gross-Gene** » 27 May 2016, 13:52

watka wrote:Ferrari are famously a one car team and right now that car is #5. Ferrari will always want to win the race with Vettel rather than the second car, if they can.

I know this isn't related to the subject at hand, but do you think this attitude of Ferrari's might keep them from winning the constructor's championship? You really need to maximize the points scored by both drivers and I feel that to do that both must be given a chance to win or finish as high as possible. Despite the fact that I pull for Grosjean though, I do think Vettel would score more points and continue as the top driver.

watka · Post by **watka** » 27 May 2016, 21:31

Row Man Gross-Gene wrote:
watka wrote:Ferrari are famously a one car team and right now that car is #5. Ferrari will always want to win the race with Vettel rather than the second car, if they can.

I know this isn't related to the subject at hand, but do you think this attitude of Ferrari's might keep them from winning the constructor's championship? You really need to maximize the points scored by both drivers and I feel that to do that both must be given a chance to win or finish as high as possible. Despite the fact that I pull for Grosjean though, I do think Vettel would score more points and continue as the top driver.

Maybe so, it really depends what their priority is. The constructors' title brings the money, but the drivers' title brings the prestige. For Ferrari, I would say that prestige is more important to them in order to shift cars.

Post by **Bobby Doorknobs** » 01 Jun 2016, 16:45

Formulae 1 and 2 were originally called Formulae A and B.

Formula 3 was originally called Formula 500 before being renamed Formula C and then Formula 3.

Formula 4 was always Formula 4, but could reasonably have been called Formula D if it was around in the late forties.

Can we start saying Formula 5 instead of Formula E now? I certainly will.