2023 Discussion Thread

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Paul Hayes
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Re: 2023 Discussion Thread

Post by Paul Hayes »

Amused by the way David Croft on the Sky comms called that - "If there were yellows now and people's laps were interrupted, that'd give us an interesting grid..." Mystic Croft!
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Re: 2023 Discussion Thread

Post by dr-baker »

Paul Hayes wrote: 06 May 2023, 21:01 Amused by the way David Croft on the Sky comms called that - "If there were yellows now and people's laps were interrupted, that'd give us an interesting grid..." Mystic Croft!
It's an interesting grid, but unless we end up with a race like Belgium 2021, Verstappen will still be on the podium at worst. Unless there is first lap midfield shenanigans... I'm hoping for the latter!
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Re: 2023 Discussion Thread

Post by Rob Dylan »

Wallio wrote: 06 May 2023, 15:26 On F1TV's FP coverage, they were basically saying how Max being ahead of Checo so far is normal service resuming now we are back on a "proper track". Except......we aren't. It is literally a parking lot, and used as a track one weekend a year. Placing my tin foil hat firmly on, I believe this is part of the FIA and Liberty's push to "legitimize" Miami (they also kept hyping the "sell out" which.....no.) So if Checo wins, does he shake the narrative, justly or unjustly?
I also love the implication that Baku isn't a "proper track" :P of all the circuits you could insult on the calendar, you choose Baku.
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Re: 2023 Discussion Thread

Post by Klon »

Rob Dylan wrote: 07 May 2023, 11:29
Wallio wrote: 06 May 2023, 15:26 On F1TV's FP coverage, they were basically saying how Max being ahead of Checo so far is normal service resuming now we are back on a "proper track". Except......we aren't. It is literally a parking lot, and used as a track one weekend a year. Placing my tin foil hat firmly on, I believe this is part of the FIA and Liberty's push to "legitimize" Miami (they also kept hyping the "sell out" which.....no.) So if Checo wins, does he shake the narrative, justly or unjustly?
I also love the implication that Baku isn't a "proper track" :P of all the circuits you could insult on the calendar, you choose Baku.
I mean, the notion of a "proper track" in this context clearly means a dedicated racing facility - which Miami is not - but do go off. :D
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Re: 2023 Discussion Thread

Post by mario »

Klon wrote: 07 May 2023, 16:58
Rob Dylan wrote: 07 May 2023, 11:29
Wallio wrote: 06 May 2023, 15:26 On F1TV's FP coverage, they were basically saying how Max being ahead of Checo so far is normal service resuming now we are back on a "proper track". Except......we aren't. It is literally a parking lot, and used as a track one weekend a year. Placing my tin foil hat firmly on, I believe this is part of the FIA and Liberty's push to "legitimize" Miami (they also kept hyping the "sell out" which.....no.) So if Checo wins, does he shake the narrative, justly or unjustly?
I also love the implication that Baku isn't a "proper track" :P of all the circuits you could insult on the calendar, you choose Baku.
I mean, the notion of a "proper track" in this context clearly means a dedicated racing facility - which Miami is not - but do go off. :D
To be fair, it was Horner who was the first to say that Perez needed to win "on a proper track" after his victory in Baku - so, whilst the commentators might have used that phrase, it was Horner who effectively encouraged the use of that term.
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Re: 2023 Discussion Thread

Post by RAK »

I'd also say that Baku isn't a great track and has mainly got its reputation for its proclivity towards chaos rather than being well-designed for racing, but that's a different issue altogether.
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Re: 2023 Discussion Thread

Post by Wallio »

While no one can argue today's cancelation (although that hasn't stopped people on Reddit, Twitter and Facebook from trying) it does once again enforce the universe's 'soft cap' of 22 races. Try as they might, Liberty simply cannot get a 23 race season off the ground. Maybe when they finally plan the much hyped 25 race season will 23 actually happen ;)
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Re: 2023 Discussion Thread

Post by Rob Dylan »

Wallio wrote: 17 May 2023, 11:48 While no one can argue today's cancelation (although that hasn't stopped people on Reddit, Twitter and Facebook from trying) it does once again enforce the universe's 'soft cap' of 22 races. Try as they might, Liberty simply cannot get a 23 race season off the ground. Maybe when they finally plan the much hyped 25 race season will 23 actually happen ;)
I was going to say, all they have to do is promise about five more races than they are wanting, and voila they'll get their planned one race a week :lol:
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Re: 2023 Discussion Thread

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Wallio wrote: 17 May 2023, 11:48 While no one can argue today's cancelation (although that hasn't stopped people on Reddit, Twitter and Facebook from trying) it does once again enforce the universe's 'soft cap' of 22 races. Try as they might, Liberty simply cannot get a 23 race season off the ground. Maybe when they finally plan the much hyped 25 race season will 23 actually happen ;)
To be fair, the wide consensus does seem to be that the decision to cancel the race was correct.

That said, it does seem to be a measure of how low the FIA's reputation has now sunk is that quite a few fans also seemed surprised that the FIA had decided to act promptly, decisively and made a decision that was considered to be sensible.
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Re: 2023 Discussion Thread

Post by Row Man Gross-Gene »

mario wrote: 17 May 2023, 17:20 That said, it does seem to be a measure of how low the FIA's reputation has now sunk is that quite a few fans also seemed surprised that the FIA had decided to act promptly, decisively and made a decision that was considered to be sensible.
Wait a minute. When have the fans ever had a high opinion of the FIA? I doubt the FIA of 5 or 10 years ago was held in appreciably higher esteem than now, at least by the fans.
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Re: 2023 Discussion Thread

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Row Man Gross-Gene wrote: 17 May 2023, 20:37
mario wrote: 17 May 2023, 17:20 That said, it does seem to be a measure of how low the FIA's reputation has now sunk is that quite a few fans also seemed surprised that the FIA had decided to act promptly, decisively and made a decision that was considered to be sensible.
Wait a minute. When have the fans ever had a high opinion of the FIA? I doubt the FIA of 5 or 10 years ago was held in appreciably higher esteem than now, at least by the fans.
It really is amazing how quickly everyone has forgotten Max and Bernie. They certainly weren't loved. And that's to say nothing of Jean-Marie Balestre. Heck, even poor Charlie Whiting caught quite a bit of flack prior to his passing.
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Re: 2023 Discussion Thread

Post by Rob Dylan »

Are we just a bunch of whiners?

...

No! It is the FIA who are wrong :glasses:
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Re: 2023 Discussion Thread

Post by CoopsII »

A bit of rain? Pshaw! I survived Silverstone 2000, I'd have made them race.

I'm joking, of course, but I was surprised they cancelled it a few days in advance, I'd presumed they'd get the cars on track at least once to fulfill some sort of contractual obligation. Has a race ever been cancelled in advance before due to weather? I can't remember it happening for that, only wars, nuclear disasters and COVID.
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Re: 2023 Discussion Thread

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Wallio wrote: 17 May 2023, 21:58
Row Man Gross-Gene wrote: 17 May 2023, 20:37
mario wrote: 17 May 2023, 17:20 That said, it does seem to be a measure of how low the FIA's reputation has now sunk is that quite a few fans also seemed surprised that the FIA had decided to act promptly, decisively and made a decision that was considered to be sensible.
Wait a minute. When have the fans ever had a high opinion of the FIA? I doubt the FIA of 5 or 10 years ago was held in appreciably higher esteem than now, at least by the fans.
It really is amazing how quickly everyone has forgotten Max and Bernie. They certainly weren't loved. And that's to say nothing of Jean-Marie Balestre. Heck, even poor Charlie Whiting caught quite a bit of flack prior to his passing.
I do agree that they did get a fair bit of criticism in the past and were not particularly well regarded before. However, even if not held in great esteem before, it does feel as if they are held in lower regard now.

Part of it seems to be that Sulayem is not considered particularly good - when some of his own staff seem frustrated about him being overly impulsive, it doesn't paint a good picture. It doesn't help that Sulayem was elected promising reform, but many seem to think that too many of the old traits of the FIA persist, and the recent accusations of sexist abuse by Sulayem towards Rao haven't helped.

Equally, unpopular as Bernie was and is, I think that the move towards racing in Saudi Arabia was seen as being a step beyond Bernie's worst actions. The cosying up to cryptocurrency sponsors may not have helped either, particularly since the sponsor involved has had a few scandals themselves.
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Re: 2023 Discussion Thread

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mario wrote: 18 May 2023, 09:01
Wallio wrote: 17 May 2023, 21:58
Row Man Gross-Gene wrote: 17 May 2023, 20:37

Wait a minute. When have the fans ever had a high opinion of the FIA? I doubt the FIA of 5 or 10 years ago was held in appreciably higher esteem than now, at least by the fans.
It really is amazing how quickly everyone has forgotten Max and Bernie. They certainly weren't loved. And that's to say nothing of Jean-Marie Balestre. Heck, even poor Charlie Whiting caught quite a bit of flack prior to his passing.
I do agree that they did get a fair bit of criticism in the past and were not particularly well regarded before. However, even if not held in great esteem before, it does feel as if they are held in lower regard now.

Part of it seems to be that Sulayem is not considered particularly good - when some of his own staff seem frustrated about him being overly impulsive, it doesn't paint a good picture. It doesn't help that Sulayem was elected promising reform, but many seem to think that too many of the old traits of the FIA persist, and the recent accusations of sexist abuse by Sulayem towards Rao haven't helped.

Equally, unpopular as Bernie was and is, I think that the move towards racing in Saudi Arabia was seen as being a step beyond Bernie's worst actions. The cosying up to cryptocurrency sponsors may not have helped either, particularly since the sponsor involved has had a few scandals themselves.

I'm all-in on stopping the Saudi Race, but is it worse than having Russia (which was inaugurated under Bernie)? But really that's not the point, what I'm trying to avoid is going down the road of "everything old is better than everything new". That's death to communities like this (as well as not being true). Everyone should absolutely lambaste stupidity and greed when we see it, but it's silly to then say "because Max or Bernie or Balestre would have been better".
It's just unbelievable...that Formula 1 could be such a ridiculous melange of idiots.

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Re: 2023 Discussion Thread

Post by mario »

Row Man Gross-Gene wrote: 18 May 2023, 12:56
mario wrote: 18 May 2023, 09:01
Wallio wrote: 17 May 2023, 21:58

It really is amazing how quickly everyone has forgotten Max and Bernie. They certainly weren't loved. And that's to say nothing of Jean-Marie Balestre. Heck, even poor Charlie Whiting caught quite a bit of flack prior to his passing.
I do agree that they did get a fair bit of criticism in the past and were not particularly well regarded before. However, even if not held in great esteem before, it does feel as if they are held in lower regard now.

Part of it seems to be that Sulayem is not considered particularly good - when some of his own staff seem frustrated about him being overly impulsive, it doesn't paint a good picture. It doesn't help that Sulayem was elected promising reform, but many seem to think that too many of the old traits of the FIA persist, and the recent accusations of sexist abuse by Sulayem towards Rao haven't helped.

Equally, unpopular as Bernie was and is, I think that the move towards racing in Saudi Arabia was seen as being a step beyond Bernie's worst actions. The cosying up to cryptocurrency sponsors may not have helped either, particularly since the sponsor involved has had a few scandals themselves.

I'm all-in on stopping the Saudi Race, but is it worse than having Russia (which was inaugurated under Bernie)? But really that's not the point, what I'm trying to avoid is going down the road of "everything old is better than everything new". That's death to communities like this (as well as not being true). Everyone should absolutely lambaste stupidity and greed when we see it, but it's silly to then say "because Max or Bernie or Balestre would have been better".
I would say that there are few that would want a return to what was done under Mosely and Balestre, or would look to Bernie with any great fondness either. I think that part of the wider unpopularity is because there was a popular expectation of change under the new management that hasn't come about to the extent that was expected, leaving a sense that too many bad traits from those past figures persist now.

I don't think it's the idea that "because Max or Bernie or Balestre would have been better" that is resulting in that negative opinion - rather, I think there is a popular perception that the sport hasn't moved as far on from that era as it claims to and that it should be doing better. The Russian Grand Prix, which you mention, is an example of that - the original decision to have the Russian Grand Prix attracted a lot of criticism of Bernie, but the decision by Liberty Media to extend the contract in 2021 saw them being criticised as no better than Bernie.
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Re: 2023 Discussion Thread

Post by Row Man Gross-Gene »

mario wrote: 19 May 2023, 07:24
Row Man Gross-Gene wrote: 18 May 2023, 12:56
mario wrote: 18 May 2023, 09:01
I do agree that they did get a fair bit of criticism in the past and were not particularly well regarded before. However, even if not held in great esteem before, it does feel as if they are held in lower regard now.

Part of it seems to be that Sulayem is not considered particularly good - when some of his own staff seem frustrated about him being overly impulsive, it doesn't paint a good picture. It doesn't help that Sulayem was elected promising reform, but many seem to think that too many of the old traits of the FIA persist, and the recent accusations of sexist abuse by Sulayem towards Rao haven't helped.

Equally, unpopular as Bernie was and is, I think that the move towards racing in Saudi Arabia was seen as being a step beyond Bernie's worst actions. The cosying up to cryptocurrency sponsors may not have helped either, particularly since the sponsor involved has had a few scandals themselves.

I'm all-in on stopping the Saudi Race, but is it worse than having Russia (which was inaugurated under Bernie)? But really that's not the point, what I'm trying to avoid is going down the road of "everything old is better than everything new". That's death to communities like this (as well as not being true). Everyone should absolutely lambaste stupidity and greed when we see it, but it's silly to then say "because Max or Bernie or Balestre would have been better".
I would say that there are few that would want a return to what was done under Mosely and Balestre, or would look to Bernie with any great fondness either. I think that part of the wider unpopularity is because there was a popular expectation of change under the new management that hasn't come about to the extent that was expected, leaving a sense that too many bad traits from those past figures persist now.

I don't think it's the idea that "because Max or Bernie or Balestre would have been better" that is resulting in that negative opinion - rather, I think there is a popular perception that the sport hasn't moved as far on from that era as it claims to and that it should be doing better. The Russian Grand Prix, which you mention, is an example of that - the original decision to have the Russian Grand Prix attracted a lot of criticism of Bernie, but the decision by Liberty Media to extend the contract in 2021 saw them being criticised as no better than Bernie.

Yeah, understandable, there are plenty of failings to go around. I'm happy that Liberty have expanded the ability to create digital content as well as pushing for more viewership in my country. But I've had to rein-in my expectations because there's just no getting around the fiduciary rules in the US. The point of a publicly-traded company in the US is to make money for shareholders first and foremost, so deals like Saudi and Russia are virtually inevitable. The only way they can justify doing otherwise is if they can show that short/medium term they will lose so many viewers that the loss to TV revenue will be larger than the amount of the hosting fees. That's just not going to happen unfortunately.
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Re: 2023 Discussion Thread

Post by MyHamsterRacedAnOnyx »

There were two main reasons they cancelled ER so early
*they didn't want the emergency services that would had to have been in attendance at the circuit to be diverted from more important things such as collecting people whose houses were floating away.
*Monaco was in a week's time-if they'd waited to cancel and they'd been unable to get back to the paddock,we'd have had the sorry sight of teams either having their cars stranded at the circuit or being able to retrieve them but finding they are useless due to water/mud/etc. damage.
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Re: 2023 Discussion Thread

Post by Rob Dylan »

And also the circuit isn't overseen by petrodollar dictators which tends to make Liberty more at... liberty to dump it given an emergency situation.
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Re: 2023 Discussion Thread

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That was the most entertaining qualifying session for ages!

Maybe this is the answer to the Monaco question - just do it as a time trial rather than a race!
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Re: 2023 Discussion Thread

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Well - a rare example of a race where there's a lot of talk about rain maybe, possibly coming... and then it actually did!
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Re: 2023 Discussion Thread

Post by IceG »

From the RotR thread:
Freeze-O-Kimi wrote: 28 May 2023, 23:45 Stroll: At what point do we start asking questions?. 27 points and not a single podium in what’s arguably been the 2nd quickest car up to now just isn’t good enough. A nice lad but if Aston Martin are going to fulfill their ambitions of fighting for the championship then the owner needs to show his ruthlessness and sack his son.
Was thinking exactly that during the race. He has been great in the wet and Monaco is not a representative circuit but it does separate the greats from the also-rans.

Now if only there was a top quality, highly experienced driver with a winning track record (including at Monaco), and the kind of personality that Aston Martin marketing would love, available to take over the seat...
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Re: 2023 Discussion Thread

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IceG wrote: 29 May 2023, 08:46 From the RotR thread:
Freeze-O-Kimi wrote: 28 May 2023, 23:45 Stroll: At what point do we start asking questions?. 27 points and not a single podium in what’s arguably been the 2nd quickest car up to now just isn’t good enough. A nice lad but if Aston Martin are going to fulfill their ambitions of fighting for the championship then the owner needs to show his ruthlessness and sack his son.
Was thinking exactly that during the race. He has been great in the wet and Monaco is not a representative circuit but it does separate the greats from the also-rans.

Now if only there was a top quality, highly experienced driver with a winning track record (including at Monaco), and the kind of personality that Aston Martin marketing would love, available to take over the seat...
Hamilton?
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Re: 2023 Discussion Thread

Post by Rob Dylan »

Spectoremg wrote: 29 May 2023, 17:33
IceG wrote: 29 May 2023, 08:46 From the RotR thread:
Freeze-O-Kimi wrote: 28 May 2023, 23:45 Stroll: At what point do we start asking questions?. 27 points and not a single podium in what’s arguably been the 2nd quickest car up to now just isn’t good enough. A nice lad but if Aston Martin are going to fulfill their ambitions of fighting for the championship then the owner needs to show his ruthlessness and sack his son.
Was thinking exactly that during the race. He has been great in the wet and Monaco is not a representative circuit but it does separate the greats from the also-rans.

Now if only there was a top quality, highly experienced driver with a winning track record (including at Monaco), and the kind of personality that Aston Martin marketing would love, available to take over the seat...
Hamilton?
Button surely :dance:
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Re: 2023 Discussion Thread

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IceG wrote: 29 May 2023, 08:46 From the RotR thread:
Freeze-O-Kimi wrote: 28 May 2023, 23:45 Stroll: At what point do we start asking questions?. 27 points and not a single podium in what’s arguably been the 2nd quickest car up to now just isn’t good enough. A nice lad but if Aston Martin are going to fulfill their ambitions of fighting for the championship then the owner needs to show his ruthlessness and sack his son.
I mean....is this a surprise really? To quote one of American Football's great lines "He [Stroll] is who we thought he was." He's not very good. Certainly not Latifi or Mazepin bad, but bottom 6 on the grid easily, a few lucky podiums (in a car his teammate won in) aside. But his dad won't fire him. He bought a team for him, bought into AM itself to "legitimize" the team, and is investing eight figures in a new shop/windtunnel. Money is no object to Papa Stroll. Hell, Lance pays for Twitter Blue for God's sake.......
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Re: 2023 Discussion Thread

Post by Row Man Gross-Gene »

Wallio wrote: 30 May 2023, 15:35
IceG wrote: 29 May 2023, 08:46 From the RotR thread:
Freeze-O-Kimi wrote: 28 May 2023, 23:45 Stroll: At what point do we start asking questions?. 27 points and not a single podium in what’s arguably been the 2nd quickest car up to now just isn’t good enough. A nice lad but if Aston Martin are going to fulfill their ambitions of fighting for the championship then the owner needs to show his ruthlessness and sack his son.
I mean....is this a surprise really? To quote one of American Football's great lines "He [Stroll] is who we thought he was." He's not very good. Certainly not Latifi or Mazepin bad, but bottom 6 on the grid easily, a few lucky podiums (in a car his teammate won in) aside. But his dad won't fire him. He bought a team for him, bought into AM itself to "legitimize" the team, and is investing eight figures in a new shop/windtunnel. Money is no object to Papa Stroll. Hell, Lance pays for Twitter Blue for God's sake.......
These comments bring to mind some of the ideas/debates around F1 being a meritocracy (or meritocracy in life in general I suppose). Generally speaking I'm fine with F1 being a meritocracy in some sense. And even in that sense, quite probably Lance doesn't belong. But too much meritocracy can be totally chaotic. If F1 was somehow able to always have the 20 best drivers in the world at any given time, there'd be so much bouncing into and out of the sport that very few drivers would ever truly learn the ropes. Lance has had ample time, I'd probably agree he should be moved on in all fairness, but I think F1 would also be bad as a complete and total meritocracy. With the car being the determining factor, the teams are probably slightly better off with someone who is knowledgeable and compatible with their car more so than someone who might be out and out quicker. Plus everyone's only human. Imagine if your company kept your job on permanent listing always looking at finding someone better at what you do. Would your job performance increase or would things get really weird, really fast? It's just something to think about, and I don't feel sorry for Lance or anything of the sort. I'm just curious what others think about it and what they think would be a decent blend of meritocracy and stability, or am I all wrong?
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Re: 2023 Discussion Thread

Post by Paul Hayes »

That was quite a fun race to start with, but rather petered out after the halfway mark - still, better than some of the Barcelona processions we've seen down the years. Nice for Mercedes that they put in a stronger showing - mixes things up a bit!
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Re: 2023 Discussion Thread

Post by Paul Hayes »

A shame it was once again an easy one for Verstappen out front. I'm not sure how much I believe Alonso could have challenged him without his issue, but at least as Alonso had promised it wasn't a 20-to-30 second margin. Great drive by Albon to get some good points for Williams.
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Re: 2023 Discussion Thread

Post by mario »

Paul Hayes wrote: 18 Jun 2023, 19:42 A shame it was once again an easy one for Verstappen out front. I'm not sure how much I believe Alonso could have challenged him without his issue, but at least as Alonso had promised it wasn't a 20-to-30 second margin. Great drive by Albon to get some good points for Williams.
Verstappen's engineer did tell him during the race that others were pushing harder than Verstappen was and they were still not able to catch him. That would seem to suggest that Verstappen was simply driving to maintain a gap to those behind him and could have gone faster if he needed to.
Martin Brundle, on watching a replay of Grosjean spinning:
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Re: 2023 Discussion Thread

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Paul Hayes wrote: 18 Jun 2023, 19:42 but at least as Alonso had promised it wasn't a 20-to-30 second margin.

It probably should have been though. Max did actually hit a bird, and it was lodged in his brake duct throughout the race.
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Re: 2023 Discussion Thread

Post by Row Man Gross-Gene »

Wallio wrote: 20 Jun 2023, 15:58
Paul Hayes wrote: 18 Jun 2023, 19:42 but at least as Alonso had promised it wasn't a 20-to-30 second margin.

It probably should have been though. Max did actually hit a bird, and it was lodged in his brake duct throughout the race.
I'm left wondering why Max is so much faster than Checo. If he had a bird (or bits of it) in his brake duct and he was cruising home, why can't Perez make more of a dent in the same car. Is the car just that much more to Max's liking? I'm not talking about wins, just pace, so poor form or bad luck (of which Perez has been a more frequent recipient) needn't be considered I think. He couldn't make a dent on 5th place. I don't get it, any ideas much appreciated.
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Re: 2023 Discussion Thread

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Row Man Gross-Gene wrote: 20 Jun 2023, 17:47
Wallio wrote: 20 Jun 2023, 15:58
Paul Hayes wrote: 18 Jun 2023, 19:42 but at least as Alonso had promised it wasn't a 20-to-30 second margin.

It probably should have been though. Max did actually hit a bird, and it was lodged in his brake duct throughout the race.
I'm left wondering why Max is so much faster than Checo. If he had a bird (or bits of it) in his brake duct and he was cruising home, why can't Perez make more of a dent in the same car. Is the car just that much more to Max's liking? I'm not talking about wins, just pace, so poor form or bad luck (of which Perez has been a more frequent recipient) needn't be considered I think. He couldn't make a dent on 5th place. I don't get it, any ideas much appreciated.
Max allegedly does like a very nonconventional setup for his cars and as such it's very hard to drive if you aren't him. As early as 2019 I can remember commentators reporting on it. But I honestly think most of Checo's problem is mental. He has podiums in a Sauber, and won in a Racing Point, so he's not rubbish, but he does appear to crack under pressure. How easy is it to forget his one ill-fated season at Mclaren? After he left Woking, the narrative was he was better at smaller teams.

Couple that with the fact that all racing drivers have an ego, and it cannot be easy to watch yourself get blown away in equal machinery (unlike say Kubica at Williams in 2019, or numerous Minardi #2s in the early 2000s, or Irvine/Salo at Ferrari in the 90s) This is allegedly (according to Flavio and others) what "broke" Martin Brundle. Schumacher was just that much better. And after Benetton cut him and realized they wanted him back, it had become a self-fulfilling prophecy and he was never the same again. You saw a bit of this with Rubens at Brawn in 2009. He wasn't the contracted #2 anymore, but Jenson just was at another level, so by mid-season he was screaming favoritism.

Plus Checo (allegedly) had some nasty marital problems over most of last season/offseason, and if true, we have seen what that did to Bottas just a few years ago.

EDIT: Plus don't forget, that Horner (unlike Marko) is actually really hands-off as a boss. Besides Multi-21, Silverstone '99. and Turkey 2010 (none of which were punished), last year Max believed Checo crashed on purpose at Monaco. Now whether he did or didn't (and I don't think he did personally), this was an issue the team admitted lingered all year. Max then screws Checo at Brazil and says "now we're even". WTF is that? In all cases.
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Re: 2023 Discussion Thread

Post by MyHamsterRacedAnOnyx »

Anyone know exactly what Lando Norris' penalty was for? Normally it will be specified-'driving too slowly','exceeding track limits','impeding another driver' but 'unsportsmanlike behaviour' covers a multitude of sins...
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Re: 2023 Discussion Thread

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MyHamsterRacedAnOnyx wrote: 22 Jun 2023, 13:17 Anyone know exactly what Lando Norris' penalty was for? Normally it will be specified-'driving too slowly','exceeding track limits','impeding another driver' but 'unsportsmanlike behaviour' covers a multitude of sins...
It was slowing down to double stack in the pits. McLaren have said this is apparently in order to set a new precedent, and to be able to use the Sporting Code to help penalize on track actions.
One group may think a different part of the rulebook is the most appropriate to use as the reference, hence invoking the ISC on this occasion.

If such incidents were to be judged via an ISC rule governing sporting behaviour in the future, there would certainly be logic to it. And McLaren team boss Andrea Stella did wonder if the stewards were trying to set a new precedent.“We spoke to the stewards right after the race because we thought these kinds of speeds under a safety car or even a virtual safety car shouldn’t be the reason for an infringement,” said Stella.

“There’s a possibility the stewards want to set new references. We carry on discussing with them.

“Ultimately we trust their judgement, but we are reviewing once again the behaviour of Lando because we come out of this race very surprised that this has caused a penalty.”
https://the-race.com/formula-1/norris-m ... gic-to-it/
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Re: 2023 Discussion Thread

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MyHamsterRacedAnOnyx wrote: 22 Jun 2023, 13:17 Anyone know exactly what Lando Norris' penalty was for? Normally it will be specified-'driving too slowly','exceeding track limits','impeding another driver' but 'unsportsmanlike behaviour' covers a multitude of sins...
I'm pretty certain it was for backing up traffic into the pits so he could double-stack. But anyone should correct me if I'm wrong.
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Re: 2023 Discussion Thread

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A lot of good stuff there, probably the smallest, but most intriguing to me is the below.
Wallio wrote: 20 Jun 2023, 21:13 Max allegedly does like a very nonconventional setup for his cars and as such it's very hard to drive if you aren't him.
If this is the case, it makes me wonder what exactly Red Bull expects from their second drivers? In this case, presumably they'd know no one else is going to flourish and yet they can keep tossing drivers aside. It's like a poisoned chalice.
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Re: 2023 Discussion Thread

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Row Man Gross-Gene wrote: 22 Jun 2023, 16:07 A lot of good stuff there, probably the smallest, but most intriguing to me is the below.
Wallio wrote: 20 Jun 2023, 21:13 Max allegedly does like a very nonconventional setup for his cars and as such it's very hard to drive if you aren't him.
If this is the case, it makes me wonder what exactly Red Bull expects from their second drivers? In this case, presumably they'd know no one else is going to flourish and yet they can keep tossing drivers aside. It's like a poisoned chalice.

It's very much Benetton during the Schumi days all over again. I guess the idea is to find someone who can win a few races in the second seat and help you lock up the WCC. It's not a bad gig persay, if you can turn off your competitive mindset.

It's also not a recent Red Bull "problem" either. Vettel was really the master of the blown diffuser cars and Webber never took to it. And if you look at Red Bulls 100 wins it's pretty glaring:

Max - 41
Seb - 39
Webber - 9
Danny Ric - 7
Checo - 5


Just a bit of a gap there.
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Re: 2023 Discussion Thread

Post by mario »

Row Man Gross-Gene wrote: 22 Jun 2023, 15:59
MyHamsterRacedAnOnyx wrote: 22 Jun 2023, 13:17 Anyone know exactly what Lando Norris' penalty was for? Normally it will be specified-'driving too slowly','exceeding track limits','impeding another driver' but 'unsportsmanlike behaviour' covers a multitude of sins...
I'm pretty certain it was for backing up traffic into the pits so he could double-stack. But anyone should correct me if I'm wrong.
You are indeed correct - Norris's penalty was for slowing down quite sharply when they were behind the safety car to create a gap to his team mate.

Penalising a driver for slowing excessively whilst behind the safety car is something that has occasionally been done in the past, but what is unusual here is that it was termed to be "unsporting behaviour" - where it was penalised in the past, it was on the grounds of "erratic driving".
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Re: 2023 Discussion Thread

Post by James1978 »

Checo to me is a lot like Fisichella - great in midfield cars but struggles at a top team when they're up against a truly great driver in Max or Alonso for Fisi. But I still think RB will struggle to find a better #2 - he did help Max after all in 2021 when it was a close run thing and this year Max doesn't seem to need Checo's help - the only thing is it might put their elusive 1-2 in the WDC in jeopardy against Alonso and/or Hamilton.

But I doubt Yuki or Danny Ric now could do any better and other top drivers like Leclerc won't want to be Max's teammate!
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Re: 2023 Discussion Thread

Post by IceG »

The Red Bull approach seems counter-productive.

The Mercedes and Ferrari teams have a history of well-matched drivers who could both get great results from the car. Yes there is still a team hierarchy but Irvine, Rosberg and Bottas were still fabulous in their day.

Red Bull manufacture a car for one driver (Max/Seb) and the other seems to struggle.

This suggests that RB prioritises the Driver's chanmpionship (where all the publicity is) over the Constructor's championship (where the prize money is).

I cannot remember how the wind tunnel handicapping works - is that based on team or driver points/positions?
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