2023 Discussion Thread

[SammiRei]

2016: Button in Monaco

The most hilarious thing about this one in particular for me, is that when he got invited to his home town to turn the christmas lights on one year, championship winning car and all, this small town in England did a better job of welding the drain covers down that the professional racing circuits did.

[Rob Dylan]

I think I remember a manhole cover getting thrown up in the air during a street race in 2001, between Joe Tanto and Jimmy Bly

[Paul Hayes]

Bizarre that everyone in the world bar the Red Bull pitwall could see what a mistake it was to finish Perez's runs so early.

[Wallio]

Autosport have written an article explaining why spectators were ejected. Apparently all the Thursday one day pass holders have been given a $200 voucher to spend in the official F1 merchandise store.

I have ti check with my nieces. Do the kids still say "oof"? Because that's a pretty freaking big oof.

[dr-baker]

Autosport have written an article explaining why spectators were ejected. Apparently all the Thursday one day pass holders have been given a $200 voucher to spend in the official F1 merchandise store.

I have to check with my nieces. Do the kids still say "oof"? Because that's a pretty freaking big oof.

>>Insert "How do you do, fellow kids?" meme here.

It is indeed a sizable oof and totally uncool.

[Spectoremg]

Purpose built street circuit, the start line could have been anywhere - but let's make it a short squirt into a hairpin - what could go wrong?

[IceG]

Purpose built street circuit, the start line could have been anywhere - but let's make it a short squirt into a hairpin - what could go wrong?

Having the pit entrance inside the left-hander just before the finish line might be fun, like Sao Paolo but closer and without a wall...

[Har1MAS1415]

After a meeting, and a deferral and another meeting, finally it's been decided-the results of the US Grand Prix will stand....

Hardly surprising.

...but given some of the FIA's decisions, not beyond the realms of probability that they would have done something daft...

I thought doing something daft was the only thing the FIA was useful for these days?

[Paul Hayes]

Poor old Perez. I'm not sure getting done on the last lap twice in two races is doing his reputation any favours.

[mario]

Similarly, the rage vented at Baku disappeared not long afterwards

You and I go to different forums obviously

Toto would have a point, if he made it after FP2, not after 8 minutes. And while I don't hate the circuit itself personally (the track and the event itself are two different issues) it did not "reset any standards." If anything, this argument hurts his case. Sure Monaco, Baku, etc could have these issues, but Vegas? The new gold standard? Shouldn't happen.

Its much ado about nothing. Toto just wants his clip for the trailer for DTS season....... what the hell number they're up to.
"No Mikey, No!"
"I printed it out!"
"Go Thank Liberty!"

Dude knows memes sell. He's not dumb.

Maybe - it seemed that more of the complaints after that race were about the Ricciardo-Kvyat incident and people having a go at Ricciardo for what they saw as an amateurish move, plus the penalty that Kubica got for being in the pit lane too early.

Mind you, corporate brown nosing is not exactly unique to just team bosses either - you should see how bad some posters on other forums are about it.

Poor old Perez. I'm not sure getting done on the last lap twice in two races is doing his reputation any favours.

In the context of how badly much of his season has gone, it's perhaps hard to do that much more damage when his reputation has already taken quite a beating.

[Paul Hayes]

In the context of how badly much of his season has gone, it's perhaps hard to do that much more damage when his reputation has already taken quite a beating.

True - it just feels like the unfortunate icing on top of a fairly miserable cake.

[Wallio]

So after watching all weekend I have a new "complaint" about the Vegas track. It's just too bloody big, both in terms of length and in width. Let me explain. The two main things even the detractors would admit was that the track was going to be insanely fast, and the cars blasting through the neon would look cool......but with how big the track was, you couldn't tell.

The sheer size gave no sense of speed (unlike Jeddah) and you only really saw the neons on helicopter shots. Watching the onboards was even worse, as the high walls and catch fences obscured everything. So great race aside, that was kind of disappointing. No F-Zero moment afterall.

[dinizintheoven]

This is not a complaint, it's an observation, and it's about Esteban Ocon. I thought I'd made it before, but apparently I haven't. Or if I did and the search failed to bring it up,

He's always been one of those drivers that I just didn't notice. Even when he was with Manor for half a season, and the Reject Laser Focus was on his team, the other two drivers were far more interesting - Pascal Wehrlein for scoring a point and supposedly preparing himself for a step up the grid (which aged like milk) and Rio Haryanto... for being prime reject material. Since then, he's either had to get on the podium in a car that shouldn't ever have been there - even with an outrageously fortunate win in one case - or wind up another driver until he snaps, whether that's Max Verstappen, Pierre Gasly, Fernando Alonso or anyone else - in order to get me to notice his presence. And because those shots at a podium are going to be few and far between in a team that can barely be bothered and the left hand doesn't know (or care) what the right hand is doing, it's going to have to be those "OMFG CONTROVERSIAL!" moments that he has to rely on just to stay in the public eye.

Am I alone in this observation?

[Row Man Gross-Gene]

This is not a complaint, it's an observation, and it's about Esteban Ocon. I thought I'd made it before, but apparently I haven't. Or if I did and the search failed to bring it up,

He's always been one of those drivers that I just didn't notice. Even when he was with Manor for half a season, and the Reject Laser Focus was on his team, the other two drivers were far more interesting - Pascal Wehrlein for scoring a point and supposedly preparing himself for a step up the grid (which aged like milk) and Rio Haryanto... for being prime reject material. Since then, he's either had to get on the podium in a car that shouldn't ever have been there - even with an outrageously fortunate win in one case - or wind up another driver until he snaps, whether that's Max Verstappen, Pierre Gasly, Fernando Alonso or anyone else - in order to get me to notice his presence. And because those shots at a podium are going to be few and far between in a team that can barely be bothered and the left hand doesn't know (or care) what the right hand is doing, it's going to have to be those "OMFG CONTROVERSIAL!" moments that he has to rely on just to stay in the public eye.

Am I alone in this observation?

Those moments you mentioned are certainly the ones that make him noticeable. This is partly because he doesn't make a lot of noise off the track.

Given that, and his reputation as a bit of a journeyman, makes him a little invisible sometimes. However, I think he is better than all the other journeymen on the grid. But for his strained history with Max, he'd be a much better choice for number 2 at Redbull than Perez at this point. I think he's better than Hulk, Magnussen, Albon and certainly the pay drivers and rookies (save Piastri). He seems marginally slower than Gasly. But here's a hot take: I think he probably would have scored more points than Russell in the second Mercedes this year. (Despite the fact that Russell is quicker and a better long-term prospect)

[mario]

This is not a complaint, it's an observation, and it's about Esteban Ocon. I thought I'd made it before, but apparently I haven't. Or if I did and the search failed to bring it up,

He's always been one of those drivers that I just didn't notice. Even when he was with Manor for half a season, and the Reject Laser Focus was on his team, the other two drivers were far more interesting - Pascal Wehrlein for scoring a point and supposedly preparing himself for a step up the grid (which aged like milk) and Rio Haryanto... for being prime reject material. Since then, he's either had to get on the podium in a car that shouldn't ever have been there - even with an outrageously fortunate win in one case - or wind up another driver until he snaps, whether that's Max Verstappen, Pierre Gasly, Fernando Alonso or anyone else - in order to get me to notice his presence. And because those shots at a podium are going to be few and far between in a team that can barely be bothered and the left hand doesn't know (or care) what the right hand is doing, it's going to have to be those "OMFG CONTROVERSIAL!" moments that he has to rely on just to stay in the public eye.

Am I alone in this observation?

Part of it may be that, as Row Man Gross-Gene notes, we do not hear a lot about Ocon's life outside of motorsport.

However, that may also be a reflection of much of the attention being drawn away by other stories - for example, the way in which de Vries was dumped out of the sport and Ricciardo parachuted in makes for a dramatic story, whereas a driver largely minding his business and doing a competent job, but not necessarily a spectacular one, doesn't sell. As Row Man Gross-Gene notes, you could make a similar argument for quite a few drivers on the grid as a result.

[dr-baker]

[Rob Dylan]

Ocon is another driver, like Russell (whom we discussed a few weeks ago), who doesn't seem to have much positive press around him for the average viewer. Almost all of his reputation is of being horrible to his teammates, even people like Perez who are almost always likeable and don't seem to have a bad word to say about anybody. It's a classic case of when Esteban has a problem with everyone he has ever worked with, maybe it's him...

However, FOM and the like obviously know this, so how much of his on-track shenanigans (such as blatantly defying a team order just as it came up on the radio feed) is fabricated by the broadcaster? This is the kind of thing that will sadly be lost to the ages and will never receive a straight answer from those responsible.

But I'm another one of those people who regularly forgets Ocon when I have a conversation about the 20 drivers on the grid. There's something so middling, so Fisichella-y or Wurz-y about his performances that make him very easy to brush off and far harder to think of a reason why "of all the 20 drivers, this is the one I will back".

[Row Man Gross-Gene]

There's something so middling, so Fisichella-y or Wurz-y about his performances that make him very easy to brush off and far harder to think of a reason why "of all the 20 drivers, this is the one I will back".

It's funny how differently two people can think of the same thing. Now I agree that when it comes to teammate relationships, the problem is likely Ocon. But from a skill perspective, I'm not thinking of him as like Fisi or Wurz, but rather more like Heidfeld (whom I think of as a solid, quick, respectable journeyman... if slightly boring). I don't have a lot facts to back up that though, it's just a feeling.

[mario]

Ocon is another driver, like Russell (whom we discussed a few weeks ago), who doesn't seem to have much positive press around him for the average viewer. Almost all of his reputation is of being horrible to his teammates, even people like Perez who are almost always likeable and don't seem to have a bad word to say about anybody. It's a classic case of when Esteban has a problem with everyone he has ever worked with, maybe it's him...

However, FOM and the like obviously know this, so how much of his on-track shenanigans (such as blatantly defying a team order just as it came up on the radio feed) is fabricated by the broadcaster? This is the kind of thing that will sadly be lost to the ages and will never receive a straight answer from those responsible.

But I'm another one of those people who regularly forgets Ocon when I have a conversation about the 20 drivers on the grid. There's something so middling, so Fisichella-y or Wurz-y about his performances that make him very easy to brush off and far harder to think of a reason why "of all the 20 drivers, this is the one I will back".

True, there is the question of some of that perception being shaped by what FOM chooses to show and what they don't show, particularly when it comes to something that can create a dramatic narrative.

It does create the question of whether Ocon really is that much worse than any other team mate and whether some of the rhetoric is somewhat inflated. There didn't seem to be that many problems between Ocon and Wehrlein, or between Ocon and Ricciardo - as for Ocon and Gasly, given that some were claiming that the two hated so much that it'd be impossible to control them if they were in the same team, the actual level of conflict between the two has been nowhere near what some claimed it would be.

I suspect that, if somebody sat down to it, it might turn out that Ocon's not really that different compared to some other drivers in the field - but it may be that the more high profile incidents have created a perception that, once it's taken hold, is then reinforced by strong confirmation bias. It's a bit like the memes around Maldonado, which resulted in people claiming that he'd been involved in more accidents than he actually had been.

[dr-baker]

If we are to have sprint races next year, I would propose that teams have third (and fourth?) cars built up and allow their reserve drivers and their F1 Academy drivers race.

[dinizintheoven]

If we are to have sprint races next year, I would propose that teams have third (and fourth?) cars built up and allow their reserve drivers and their F1 Academy drivers race.

It's a great idea! Which is why it'll never happen. And if it did, Liam Lawson might well do an Agostini on the field. (Which might be better called "do a Surtees", seeing as he was first, but with Ago there's no doubt that I'm referring to two wheels.)

[mario]

If we are to have sprint races next year, I would propose that teams have third (and fourth?) cars built up and allow their reserve drivers and their F1 Academy drivers race.

It's a great idea! Which is why it'll never happen. And if it did, Liam Lawson might well do an Agostini on the field. (Which might be better called "do a Surtees", seeing as he was first, but with Ago there's no doubt that I'm referring to two wheels.)

That said, having extra cars that the teams have to work on during the season does perhaps run a bit counter to both the cost cap and to the attempts to avoid overloading team personnel during a race weekend, particularly as the season has lengthened.

[dr-baker]

If we are to have sprint races next year, I would propose that teams have third (and fourth?) cars built up and allow their reserve drivers and their F1 Academy drivers race.

It's a great idea! Which is why it'll never happen. And if it did, Liam Lawson might well do an Agostini on the field. (Which might be better called "do a Surtees", seeing as he was first, but with Ago there's no doubt that I'm referring to two wheels.)

That said, having extra cars that the teams have to work on during the season does perhaps run a bit counter to both the cost cap and to the attempts to avoid overloading team personnel during a race weekend, particularly as the season has lengthened.

I knew someone would see a flaw somewhere!

Having said that, I think I remember reading something years ago (probably the late 1990s or early 2000s, given the context). Frank Williams said that if the F1 season ever got to 20+ races per year, he would have to employ a second race crew and alternate them throughout the season to ensure adequate rest and peak performance. Do they do that now? After all, they don't really have testing crews anymore, do they?

[mario]

I knew someone would see a flaw somewhere!

Having said that, I think I remember reading something years ago (probably the late 1990s or early 2000s, given the context). Frank Williams said that if the F1 season ever got to 20+ races per year, he would have to employ a second race crew and alternate them throughout the season to ensure adequate rest and peak performance. Do they do that now? After all, they don't really have testing crews anymore, do they?

I believe some teams are trying to rotate mechanics between factory roles and the race teams, but it's not necessarily possible to duplicate roles with all of their staff.

Firstly, as noted previously, the issue of the cost cap indirectly limits how many additional staff can be taken on - there aren't any dispensations for additional staff if the calendar gets longer, so additional personnel count directly against the cost cap.

Secondly, there is the issue that the FIA imposes strict limits on the number of personnel that the teams can have at the circuit. They are limited to a maximum of 58 personnel who are associated with the operation of the car, which have to be pre-registered with the FIA prior to the race weekend. The FIA does allow teams 12 individual exceptions during the season for trainee staff to attend the season on top of those 58 personnel, but each trainee can only attend a maximum of three races per season.

That latter section creates a restriction on the number of staff that teams can receive training during a race weekend, and the need to pre-register staff with the FIA before they can attend a race weekend, does make it a bit harder to change staff around, particularly given the rising number of races that are back to back (five this season and six scheduled for 2024).

[dr-baker]

The 2023/24 silly season was not at all silly. Not even a will he/won't he of any significance. Next season will start as 2023 ended. No change in driver line up anywhere on the grid.

[Alextrax52]

The 2023/24 silly season was not at all silly. Not even a will he/won't he of any significance. Next season will start as 2023 ended. No change in driver line up anywhere on the grid.

I’m predicting a 2009-10 style period here. In 2009 the only change was Red Bull promoting Vettel to replace the retiring Coulthard and Buemi slotted in at Toro Rosso. 2010 there were big moves and new teams galore. Can see a similar number of big changes for 2025 with so many drivers out of contract.

[mario]

The 2023/24 silly season was not at all silly. Not even a will he/won't he of any significance. Next season will start as 2023 ended. No change in driver line up anywhere on the grid.

I’m predicting a 2009-10 style period here. In 2009 the only change was Red Bull promoting Vettel to replace the retiring Coulthard and Buemi slotted in at Toro Rosso. 2010 there were big moves and new teams galore. Can see a similar number of big changes for 2025 with so many drivers out of contract.

The 2025 season might also be a quieter season for driver changes though, given that 2026 is going to see another major change in the regulations.

If you look back at some of the previous seasons, the seasons before a major rule change tended to be a bit quieter as drivers tended to wait and see where teams might end up before committing to a move. I wouldn't be surprised if we end up seeing several drivers announce short term contract extensions - i.e. 1-2 years - and a reasonably static grid whilst everyone waits to see what's the pecking order in 2026.

The main question is likely to be whether Perez is replaced, but the most probable scenario is they promote from within - and the actions of Red Bull to date strongly suggest the preferred option would be Ricciardo, with Lawson probably being promoted back to the junior team. If that is locked out, it's probably going to prevent much movement happening amongst most of the other large teams too, and that in turn will impact on the midfield pack.

[IceG]

The 2023/24 silly season was not at all silly. Not even a will he/won't he of any significance. Next season will start as 2023 ended. No change in driver line up anywhere on the grid.

Remember Niko Rosberg retiring just after the season's ending?

There are a number of senior drivers out there who must be thinking about whether another season is worth it. Perez, Hamilton, Alonso, Bottas, Hulkenberg and Magnussen all appear to have achieved everything they likely can. At least Hamilton and Alonso each have another competetive year in them. The rest are there for continuity or to full up the second seat.

A fly-on-the-wall at Chez Stroll would be interesting. Does daddy let him have another year? Quo vadis Aston Martin if both drivers leave at the end of 2024?

All the teams need to be setting themselves up for their 2026 line-ups with proven talent in both seats, preferably drivers who have had at least one full season with the team. That process needs to start now. Only Ferrari and Mclaren have solid talented pairings of potential 2026 WDC winners (assuming they both stick around). Every other team has either an end-of-career driver or a liability or both.

[dinizintheoven]

I'm sure the entire Sargeant family is shouting "WHOA, AWESOME, DUDE!" in a very apple-pie-with-lots-of-cinnamon way, with bald eagles flying overhead, as their boy gets to drive for Williams for another season. But I can't help thinking that one of these is the chief reason behind him being re-signed:

(1) Mercedes wouldn't stump up enough cash to put Mick Schumacher at Williams (so now he's gone to the WEC with Alpine instead);
(2) Aston Martin similarly wouldn't raid Lawrence Stroll's bank account to put Felipe Drugovich in there;
(3) Helmut Marko won't let Liam Lawson out of the Red Bull cage just in case he decides to jump ship the way Alex Albon did;
(4) Sauber, Theo Pourchaire, lather, rinse, repeat;
(5) Alex Albon's performances this year that single-handedly brought Williams up to seventh place has secured enough of the prize pot that Williams can afford to run The Sarge for another year, banking on him not costing them quite so much in damages second time around.

Which one is it? Place your bets now! Come on! Bet! Bet! Bet! *Oriental gong* Betting ends.

[dr-baker]

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/merce ... /10555773/

[mario]

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/merce ... /10555773/

This whole affair is such a bizarre sequence of events that you really do have to wonder what on earth was going on.

The speed with which the FIA announced their investigation into Wolff after the original article was published, particularly given the reputation of the magazine involved, does seem to have made some people wonder if there was a plan to go after Wolff and the article was planted to justify that act.

Equally unusual is the FIA's remarkably swift investigation, with barely 48 hours elapsing between the FIA announcing that they were opening an investigation and the FIA announcing that said investigation was over and that everything was OK. There have been a few commentaries rather wryly suggesting that it is the sort of rapid move that tends to occur when somebody realises that there are an uncomfortably large number of lawyers staring back at them from the other side of the table and that things could start getting very expensive very quickly...

If, as some were wondering, this was a case of the FIA trying to flex its muscles in the ongoing spat between Sulayem and FOM, then it feels as if it's rather backfired and now a considerable amount of scorn is being directed towards the FIA.

[MyHamsterRacedAnOnyx]

Well the sprint races for '24 have been announced. There'll be 6 of them at China,Miami,Austria,Austin,Brazil and Qatar.

And since that officially confirms it,here's next year's calendar (*=sprint race)

02 Mar Bahrain
09 Mar Saudi Arabia
24 Mar Australia
07 Apr Japan
*21 Apr China
*05 May Miami
19 May Emilia Romagna
26 May Monaco
09 Jun Canada
23 Jun Spain
*30 Jun Austria
07 Jul Great Britain
21 Jul Hungary
28 Jul Belgium
25 Aug Netherlands
01 Sep Italy
15 Sep Azerbaijan
22 Sep Singapore
*20 Oct Austin
27 Oct Mexico City
*03 Nov Brazil
23 Nov las Vegas
*01 Dec Qatar
08 Dec Abu Dhabi

[Jarvis]

The way Max dominated the whole season. I don't think we're going to see such domination from any driver in the next few years at least.

[dr-baker]

The way Max dominated the whole season. I don't think we're going to see such domination from any driver in the next few years at least.

I hope you're right, i really do. And yet I suspect that until there is a major rules change, there will continue to be dominance by one team and driver. It will be a long time until we get a repeat of 2006 to 2010, where each championship was won by a different team and a different driver without repeat.

[mario]

The way Max dominated the whole season. I don't think we're going to see such domination from any driver in the next few years at least.

I hope you're right, i really do. And yet I suspect that until there is a major rules change, there will continue to be dominance by one team and driver. It will be a long time until we get a repeat of 2006 to 2010, where each championship was won by a different team and a different driver without repeat.

It does seem to be the case that, when the current regulations were drawn up, it was in the expectation that we wouldn't have the situation that we have now - i.e. that there wouldn't be one team that managed to carve out a significant advantage.

The development restrictions and budget cap were intended to keep the field close together by limiting how much a team could develop, but by that same token, it makes it harder to see where any team could make a significant jump in performance from one year to another. Teams did make some headway by copying Red Bull, but even then, it felt more like a case of shuffling the pecking order behind Red Bull, with the pack as a whole not really making significant ground on the leaders.

It does also feel that 2024 might well be the last hope for something of interest in the current development cycle. Given the FIA has banned wind tunnel and CFD modelling for components for the 2026 regulations until the 1st January 2025, it means that teams probably will have to spend most of 2025 working on their cars for 2026.

That means that, for most teams, their 2025 cars are unlikely to see much in-season development and will probably effectively be lightly developed versions of their end of season 2024 cars, with a few tweaks to meet any specific rules for 2025. If they're not close to Red Bull in 2024, it means 2025 is almost certainly going to be a similar write off too.

[Row Man Gross-Gene]

The way Max dominated the whole season. I don't think we're going to see such domination from any driver in the next few years at least.

I hope you're right, i really do. And yet I suspect that until there is a major rules change, there will continue to be dominance by one team and driver. It will be a long time until we get a repeat of 2006 to 2010, where each championship was won by a different team and a different driver without repeat.

It does seem to be the case that, when the current regulations were drawn up, it was in the expectation that we wouldn't have the situation that we have now - i.e. that there wouldn't be one team that managed to carve out a significant advantage.

The development restrictions and budget cap were intended to keep the field close together by limiting how much a team could develop, but by that same token, it makes it harder to see where any team could make a significant jump in performance from one year to another. Teams did make some headway by copying Red Bull, but even then, it felt more like a case of shuffling the pecking order behind Red Bull, with the pack as a whole not really making significant ground on the leaders.

It does also feel that 2024 might well be the last hope for something of interest in the current development cycle. Given the FIA has banned wind tunnel and CFD modelling for components for the 2026 regulations until the 1st January 2025, it means that teams probably will have to spend most of 2025 working on their cars for 2026.

That means that, for most teams, their 2025 cars are unlikely to see much in-season development and will probably effectively be lightly developed versions of their end of season 2024 cars, with a few tweaks to meet any specific rules for 2025. If they're not close to Red Bull in 2024, it means 2025 is almost certainly going to be a similar write off too.

The budget cap rules do seem to be somewhat constraining at the moment in that they keep everyone from the ability to spend to catch up. I still feel like the cap is the better option than the old system. There might be some tweaks that would give some freedom for teams to make an extra push, something like the luxury tax that exists in the budget caps of some North American sports, where extra money could be spent occasionally but with a significant "tax" collected that would then get redistributed to the other teams, or something to that effect.

However, with how well Red Bull nailed the car/driver combo this year, I don't think any other system could have saved us from this year's domination. Unlimited spending by Mercedes or Ferrari would have had no net effect against an unlimited Red Bull in my opinion. But it would have put miles of distance between those three and the rest of the field. No way a McLaren could have had that many podiums in an unlimited budget situation.

I'm curious for ideas on how the development regulations could/should be changed. Maybe tie wind tunnel, CFD, etc. inversely to point total rather than championship position. Maybe this would allow teams that were totally dominated a better chance to catch up (as a bigger penalty to the distant winner). There are multiple ways to apply a luxury tax. First would be a tax on the exempt spending (cost for three highest-paid employees) above a certain amount? Maybe another as a tax on special spending that then gets redistributed as well. I'm not sure though.

[Yannick]

And now, the big news in Formula 1 is that Giedo van der Garde has announced his retirement.

https://www.autosport.com/wec/news/ex-f ... /10558435/

Thanks Giedo for your time in the sport.