Andretti bid for 2025 rejected

[mario]

So, it has been confirmed that FOM have rejected the application from the Andretti's to enter F1 in either 2025 or 2026, although they have indicated that they might be open to considering an application for 2028. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/68158107

Whilst not unexpected, there is one interesting detail in the statement by FOM. According to them, they wrote to the Andretti's on the 10th October with details of the assessment process and with a list of questions they asked them to address, with the Andretti's replying on the 24th October.

Now, according to FOM, they wrote back to the Andretti's again on the 12th December to ask them if the Andretti's would attend an in-person meeting at FOM's offices to discuss the application face to face. However, according to FOM, the Andretti's declined to take up that offer - which does seem a touch surprising if the Andretti's were that keen to enter the sport.

It is also curious to contemplate whether there may be some wider politics at play here - Sulayem said in late 2023 that “My dream is a full United States of America team from an OEM and I would like to also see an OEM from China”, raising the question of whether there was an element of the Andretti's being chosen for ideological reasons by Sulayem, rather than because they were necessarily the best bid.

To that end, Joe Saward did mention in late 2023 that Hitech was launching legal action against the FIA, with Hitech seemingly claiming that the FIA acted illegally in the bidding process (i.e. that the bidding process was rigged to ensure that the Andretti's would be the only winner). There was a rumour that FOM was therefore unwilling to agree to a deal with the Andretti's whilst Hitech was challenging the legality of the bidding process.

[dr-baker]

Here is the statement from the FIA. To us, the following should be interesting:

9. Any 11th team should show that its participation and involvement would bring a benefit to the Championship. The most significant way in which a new entrant would bring value is by being competitive, in particular by competing for podiums and race wins. This would materially increase fan engagement and would also increase the value of the Championship in the eyes of key stakeholders and sources of revenue such as broadcasters and race promoters.

With this criterium, none of the new teams of 2010 would have been accepted. Surely Haas would not have been accepted. Suuppppppeeeeerrrrr Aguri would not have have been. Which leaves Toyota as the only new team of the 21st century that would have been accepted by this. And we all know how that turned out…

[dinizintheoven]

Here is the statement from the FIA. To us, the following should be interesting:

9. Any 11th team should show that its participation and involvement would bring a benefit to the Championship. The most significant way in which a new entrant would bring value is by being competitive, in particular by competing for podiums and race wins. This would materially increase fan engagement and would also increase the value of the Championship in the eyes of key stakeholders and sources of revenue such as broadcasters and race promoters.

With this criterium, none of the new teams of 2010 would have been accepted. Surely Haas would not have been accepted. Suuppppppeeeeerrrrr Aguri would not have have been. Which leaves Toyota as the only new team of the 21st century that would have been accepted by this. And we all know how that turned out…

And before that?

Mastercard Lola (1997) - not a chance, after the 1993 debacle with Scuderia Italia.
Stewart (1997) - maybe, possibly, on the grounds that Jackie Stewart was a tripe World Champion, even though it was Paul Stewart doing the donkey work. Ultimately if they weren't accepted, this would mean no Red Bull.
Forti (1995) - nine-time winners in F3000, but I suspect that wouldn't be enough.
Pacific (1994) - five-time winners in F3000 and champions in 1991, but still...
Simtek (1994) - "Acchhkchkrington Stanley? 'Oo are they?"
Andrea Moda (1992) - the team that sunk Simtek's chances before they'd even started given who designed the S921...
GLAS-Modena-Lambo (1991) - stillborn as soon as that Mexican bloke scarpered
Jordan (1991) - you know, they might have had a chance... eight-time winners in F3000, not as many as Forti, but they brought Jean "he's definitely going to be a multiple World Champion, right?" Alesi into the F1 shop window so that might count in their favour.
Life (1990) - Haaahahahahaha. Oh, wait, you're serious. Let me laugh even harder. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Onyx (1989) - seven-time winners in three seasons in F3000, so... maybe, possibly?
FIRST (1989) - the only team in this list that didn't make it at all; serves them right for designing an interesting flowerpot. Back to the garden centre with you!
Scuderia Italia (1988) - "what do you mean you don't build your own cars and you're going to get Dallara to do it for you? And you're planning to turn up at the first race with a F3000 car? Scram!"
EuroBrun (1988) - "so, the failed Alfa Romeo project meets some Scalextric knock-off. WTF, mate?"
Rial (1988) - "Achtung! It's that ATS bloke with the bad temper again. Tell him to Raus, Schnell!"
March (1987) - "Are you the March that won races in the 1970s and flogged your chassis to any old fly-by-night or are you the March that built cars wasted by RAM?" Despite this, just on the basis of their 1970s reputation, they might have made it.
Larrousse (1987) - "what do you mean you don't build your own cars and you're going to get Lola to do it for you? There's no place for that any more. Hop it!"
Coloni (1987) - one season in F3000, no results. Arrivederci before they've even started!
AGS (1986) - I might have wrote the book on this lot, but FISA would take one look at Garage d'Avenir and no amount of nationalistic French interventionism would convince them that a team run from a shed would belong in F1...
Haas-Lola (1985) - "Americans? In F1? It'll never work. Tell them to go back to their cheeseburgers and their rootin'est, tootin'est pushrod V8s and their AR-15s, etc etc etc etc etc"
Minardi (1985) - well, they did win one race in F3000. Forti, ten years later, were unavailable for comment.
Zakspeed (1985) - "a sports car racing team with no previous single-seater experience? I don't care if they're German, tell them to mach ein."
Spirit (1983) - "I don't care if they're the Honda works team for the year, if they're going to turn up with a Formula 2 car they're not welcome here. Honda should have signed with a team that we probably wouldn't have let in six years ago..."

Did I miss any?

I'm not going any further back, but "the team they wouldn't have let in six years ago"... was Williams. After all, Frank didn't have the best reputation with the Frank Williams Racing Cars era - he was seen as a bit of a Del Boy before Del Boy existed, even if Piers Courage and Jacques Laffite managed three podiums between them (all second places).

As for the others that started in the first turbo era - Toleman, Theodore, Osella, RAM, the Euroracing version of Alfa Romeo, ATS, Wolf, Lec (erm...), Rebaque (cough!), Kauhsen (shriek!)... I can only imagine how many seconds it took for the authorities to throw their applications in the bin.

Even Renault most likely wouldn't have been taken seriously given that nobody in their right mind would ever have thought to turn up at a Grand Prix with a half-sized engine and a turbocharger. "Well, we just put that in the rules as a laugh, you know?"

[Forti]

If we apply 2024 logic even further back...
Liberty forces everyone to do the Indy 500,
Rob Walker, Ecurie Belge, and our other beloved privateers are denied spots on the grid, even though they clearly have a desire to be there (and competitive potential too!) unlike a certain "American" team,
and most importantly, Brabham and McLaren aren't allowed on the grid despite being led by respected drivers.

[CoopsII]

Does this all boil down to the F1 teams, manufacturers etc not wanting to give up any of their profits to another team?

[tBone]

Did I miss any?

You missed Sauber, which funny enough might be the most similar to the Andretti engine in some ways. Both have had great success in other racing disciplines, both will bring a big manufacturer as engine partner, it officially not yet in their first year.

[Wallio]

Does this all boil down to the F1 teams, manufacturers etc not wanting to give up any of their profits to another team?

Yes. They claim that a customer engine deal is a hindrance to any new team.....despite all the customer deals currently. This is their "official" reasoning for inviting GM back in 2028. However, the actual reason is that 2028 will be a new Concorde Agreement, and the $200 million expansion fee, errr I mean "anti-dilution fee" is expected to increase to AT LEAST $600 million (many sources claim $800mil to a billion). So its basically "come back with more money".

Likewise, FOM claims that Andretti cannot build a car to 225 rules and then switch to 2026 regs when they change, yet that's exactly what Haas of all people did in 2016/2017.

And let's not forget Williams last fall letting GM know they would be welcomed unanimously by the grid if they just dropped that pesty Andretti tie in......

[dinizintheoven]

Did I miss any?

You missed Sauber, which funny enough might be the most similar to the Andretti engine in some ways. Both have had great success in other racing disciplines, both will bring a big manufacturer as engine partner, it officially not yet in their first year.

...just goes to prove that either:

(1) Sauber have been around so long they're as much a part of the furniture as McLaren, Williams and Ferrari

or:

(2) Sauber are so anonymous I forgot they existed.

[Jarvis]

They will likely come up with another lame excuse in 2028 as well.

[mario]

Does this all boil down to the F1 teams, manufacturers etc not wanting to give up any of their profits to another team?

Yes. They claim that a customer engine deal is a hindrance to any new team.....despite all the customer deals currently. This is their "official" reasoning for inviting GM back in 2028. However, the actual reason is that 2028 will be a new Concorde Agreement, and the $200 million expansion fee, errr I mean "anti-dilution fee" is expected to increase to AT LEAST $600 million (many sources claim $800mil to a billion). So its basically "come back with more money".

Likewise, FOM claims that Andretti cannot build a car to 225 rules and then switch to 2026 regs when they change, yet that's exactly what Haas of all people did in 2016/2017.

And let's not forget Williams last fall letting GM know they would be welcomed unanimously by the grid if they just dropped that pesty Andretti tie in......

That said, there is one area that I do think is worth questioning about the bid put in the the Andretti's, which is the role that their planned new facility in Indiana was supposed to play in their bid.

When submitting their bid to enter in either 2025 or 2026, it seems to have been made on the basis that they would complete the construction of their new factory in Indiana by late 2024, enabling them to move into it by early 2025. However, back in March 2023, the partner company that they brought in to help manage and finance construction of the new factory (Bradford Allen) started arguing with Dillon Construction Group, the design and build contractor that was originally awarded the contract to design and build Andretti's new factory.

The claim from Dillon is that they submitted a request for payment, as they had not been paid for the design work they had done until then. In turn, they claim that representatives from Bradford Allen verbally abused them, refused to pay and eventually refused to honour the terms of the contract with them (mainly because it seems Bradford Allen wanted to use their preferred D&B contractor, whereas Dillon had previously worked for the Andretti's).

Eventually, it escalated to the point that, in May 2023, Dillon Construction filed a lawsuit in Indiana insisting on compensation, followed up by them then launching a second lawsuit in September 2023 claiming that Bradford Allen were breaching their copyright to the design by continuing to issue Dillon's design drawings and calculations to other parties.

As of mid-July 2023, all construction work on the new factory in Indiana has been on hold due to those ongoing lawsuits, neither of which look likely to finish any time soon. Whilst the Andretti's might have been able to work around it, given that the new factory was meant to be one of the major selling points for them, having construction delayed by 7 months - and counting - certainly wouldn't have helped build confidence in their ability to be able to field a car in 2025, or potentially even 2026.

Speaking of which, there were some details in Autosport about how Andretti's team was going to operate, and it sounded like a bit of a cumbersome set up. Apparently, Michael's plans were to have the race team and design departments housed near Silverstone, the aerodynamics department at Toyota’s wind tunnel in Cologne, the simulation, vehicle dynamics and R&D team at the GM Motorsports facility in Charlotte, whilst the new facility in Indiana would be responsible for manufacturing components.

Now, whilst splitting design teams into different groups in different countries has been done, I can't think of any company that spreads it's operations across that many countries and that many different design teams. Considering there has been a trend for centralising operations to increase efficiency, the approach proposed by Michael doesn't sound like the best solution.

[Wallio]

That does seem unnecessarily complicated. And if the line about skipping a meeting is true, then yeah, like what the hell Michael? But FOM's other reasons seem weak at best.

That said, if they truly believe you need genuinely competitive teams with factory engine deals, is this a conspiracy to put pressure on Haas or Visa Card to sell? Doubtful Haas sells after the restructuring. Does Red Bull have any interest? Is RBPB/Ford built around 4 cars?

[mario]

That does seem unnecessarily complicated. And if the line about skipping a meeting is true, then yeah, like what the hell Michael? But FOM's other reasons seem weak at best.

That said, if they truly believe you need genuinely competitive teams with factory engine deals, is this a conspiracy to put pressure on Haas or Visa Card to sell? Doubtful Haas sells after the restructuring. Does Red Bull have any interest? Is RBPB/Ford built around 4 cars?

It's an odd set up indeed, but seems to be one that came about because of the way Michael wanted to run things - wanting to still say that the cars were made by his team, wanting the tie in with GM that necessitated part of the work being there and yet still wanting to tap into the market of experienced staff in Europe. Whether it could have worked in practice is another matter, and personally I have my doubts about how effective it would have been - the logistics alone sound like they would have been a mess.

As for your question about whether RBPB/Ford is built around 4 cars - that's how it is structured at the moment (i.e. both the works team and Red Bull's junior team using the same engines). Horner's even gone as far as suggesting that, if they felt confident enough to do so, they might even start offering engines to other teams as customer units, although whether that's serious, or just a case of bragging rights, is hard to tell.

[Bleu]

Did I miss any?

You missed Sauber, which funny enough might be the most similar to the Andretti engine in some ways. Both have had great success in other racing disciplines, both will bring a big manufacturer as engine partner, it officially not yet in their first year.

...just goes to prove that either:

(1) Sauber have been around so long they're as much a part of the furniture as McLaren, Williams and Ferrari

or:

(2) Sauber are so anonymous I forgot they existed.

To look at it now, Hinwil-based team has been in F1 longer that McLaren had been when Sauber entered F1.

[girry]

Couldn't have been less surprised. Everything they will say to "justify" not letting Andretti in is absolute fluff - we all know why they're not being let in.

In the grand picture, this is less about Andretti in particular, and more about the fact that this is what happens when you let teams in a racing series have too much power in their hands. A cartel. Very few teams will sacrifice short term profits for long-term greater good, and I don't blame them, it's their job to maximize their own benefit. I blame those in power who allowed this structure to happen and who did not see this coming.

[mario]

So, following on from FOM's statement, we've seen a response from the Andretti's.

With regards to not meeting FOM's management, they have put out a statement claiming "We were not aware that the offer of a meeting had been extended and would not decline a meeting with Formula One Management.". There is an article in the Associated Press where the excuse given by the Andretti's is that the e-mail went to a spam folder, which is why they did not reply - although I have seen some IT administrators question the credibility of that story.

There is a second part of their statement that I do find a bit odd though, which is their response to the questions about their proposal to enter in 2025:
“Andretti Cadillac has been operating with 2026 as the year of entry for many months now. The technicality of 2025 still being part of the application is a result of the length of this process.”

That statement seems to contradict Michael's public stance throughout 2023, where he was repeatedly stating that the team were targeting an entry in 2025. It also conflicts with what Nick Chester was saying about the team's development plans at the end of January this year, where he was talking about the team having a flexible development programme that was designed with the option of entering in 2025 - it did not seem to be a "mere technicality" to him.

Similarly, Dillon Construction also stated in their lawsuit that they were being repeatedly instructed that the target deadline for completing construction was the end of 2024 because the Andretti's wanted to move in to the factory in 2025 to support their Formula 1 bid.

To be honest, I'm not sure that I buy that part of Andretti's statement - this seems to be the first time that they've stated anywhere that they were planning to enter in 2026 and that 2025 was supposedly just "a technicality".

[Jarvis]

It looks like that Andretti is going to sue F1 which would be an interesting story to look into.

[mario]

It looks like that Andretti is going to sue F1 which would be an interesting story to look into.

I haven't seen any credible organisation report that the Andretti's are looking at taking legal action.

From what I have seen, the journalists Jean-Michel Desnoues, who works for the French publication Auto Hebdo, and Janne Palomaki, who works for the Finnish newspaper Iltalehti, have both personally speculated that, since Michael has said that he doesn't want to give up yet, that means he must be considering legal action. Neither of those journalists, however, have traced that back to a source within the Andretti team - all they seem to be stating is that it's their opinion of what they think Michael might do.

[Har1MAS1415]

Will Andretti even still be interested by 2028?

[Wallio]

Will Andretti even still be interested by 2028?

A few US media at the Indy race this weekend reported that Andretti crash tested a car recently. So maybe?

[mario]

Will Andretti even still be interested by 2028?

A few US media at the Indy race this weekend reported that Andretti crash tested a car recently. So maybe?

Whilst it seems that there are a number of people in the press referring to crash tests, saying that "the Andretti's have crash tested a car" also seems to be a fairly significant exaggeration.

From what I can tell, Michael Andretti referred to crash testing a nosecone structure recently during an interview - whilst not completely insignificant, it's still quite a stretch to say that they've "crash tested a car", given it's only one component (and only one of a suite of tests they'd need to pass too).

[Wallio]

That makes infinitely more sense.

[Row Man Gross-Gene]

Following in the mighty footsteps of USF1!