For America

coops · Post by **coops** » 29 Jul 2010, 10:36

A question for our friends in the states (and anywhere else if they know the answer). During its tenure at Indy F1, as I understand it, F1 never really achieved much in the way of success in the US. Since the Austin GP is another attempt at F1 making it big I was wondering had it ever been big over there? Back in the seventies when Mario was doing the business or in the eighties when, er, Eddie Cheever was at least turning up for the race?

Is F1 trying to get back an American dream that it lost or is it just dreaming?

F1000X · Post by **F1000X** » 29 Jul 2010, 16:02

After Andretti won the world Championship for Lotus, Formula 1 coverage in America increased for a period of time. ABC who initially broadcast truncated versions of the races on delay began broadcasting races flag to flag, with Jackie Stewart (who was relentlessly irritating) commentating into the late 1980s. Eddie Cheever never really had an impact on US F1 interest or coverage. The historic Long Beach Grand Prix commanded the most attention of the American audience, but junk circuits like Vegas, Dallas, and Phoenix were poorly attended and largely ignored; Detroit was the exception. After the 1980s the lack of a true American team or contender meant interest essentially disappeared, Michael Andretti was ignored from the get-go due to his lack of performance.

The US Grand Prix at Indy was pretty well attended, but the crowd that showed up was a mixture of hardcore F1 fans from all over the continent and the localized motorsports fans that populate the Indianapolis area. Indianapolis is a very important city in both the circuit and drag racing worlds.

The old CART/Indycar series (pre-1996) and the Indy 500 always overshadowed Formula 1 at commanding the attention of American motorsports fans. The bulk of the drivers were American, the circuits were American, and the oval racing formula was familiar to the Nascar and grassroots racing crowd. After the CART lost the Indy 500 to Tony George, American interest in oval racing waned until the arrival of Danica Patrick in 2005. But even now because of the rise of Nascar in the 1990s, all open wheel racing (barring the Indy 500) is largely ignored in this country. The fact is Americans simply like more aggressive (read as contact, crashes) racing than open wheel cars can provide. Touring cars have NEVER caught on in this country despite attempts (NATCC was a failed Supertouring series).

Holding the next F1 race in Texas makes sense for only one reason I can think of, it puts it closer to South America, where more interest in F1 lies.

If you want to get the attention of Americans, bring F1 back to long beach, or better yet, have them race on the oval at Indianapolis. Show Americans something faster at Indy than Indycars and everyone will take notice.

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 29 Jul 2010, 16:40

F1000X wrote:Holding the next F1 race in Texas makes sense for only one reason I can think of, it puts it closer to South America, where more interest in F1 lies.

That's a pretty good point, but I wonder how many South Americans could afford travelling to Austin to watch a GP.

Dom · Post by **Dom** » 29 Jul 2010, 16:56

CarlosFerreira wrote:
F1000X wrote:Holding the next F1 race in Texas makes sense for only one reason I can think of, it puts it closer to South America, where more interest in F1 lies.

That's a pretty good point, but I wonder how many South Americans could afford travelling to Austin to watch a GP.

Not many South Americans, but you might get Mexicans - Mexico has a pretty good motorsport heritage and isn't too far from Austin (by North American standards).

F1000X · Post by **F1000X** » 29 Jul 2010, 17:08

CarlosFerreira wrote:That's a pretty good point, but I wonder how many South Americans could afford travelling to Austin to watch a GP.

You'd be surprised how many Colombians turned up at Indianapolis to watch Montoya race.

AndreaModa · Post by **AndreaModa** » 29 Jul 2010, 23:49

Dom wrote:
CarlosFerreira wrote:
F1000X wrote:Holding the next F1 race in Texas makes sense for only one reason I can think of, it puts it closer to South America, where more interest in F1 lies.

That's a pretty good point, but I wonder how many South Americans could afford travelling to Austin to watch a GP.

Not many South Americans, but you might get Mexicans - Mexico has a pretty good motorsport heritage and isn't too far from Austin (by North American standards).

Good shout, Mexico had it's own Grand Prix for years, ever since the mid 60s if I'm correct and there's a young Mexican under Sauber's management/upbringing in GP3 (I think) at the mo. I bet loads would turn up even if there was no Mexican driver. They'd need to get pricing right though as most probably wouldn't be able to afford what they were charging at the British GP!

rffp · Post by **rffp** » 30 Jul 2010, 10:03

CarlosFerreira wrote:That's a pretty good point, but I wonder how many South Americans could afford travelling to Austin to watch a GP.

It is an expensive trip alright, but you would be surprised to know that some destinations in South America and even Brazil are even more expensive than to travel to Texas!

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 30 Jul 2010, 11:32

rffp wrote:
CarlosFerreira wrote:That's a pretty good point, but I wonder how many South Americans could afford travelling to Austin to watch a GP.

It is an expensive trip alright, but you would be surprised to know that some destinations in South America and even Brazil are even more expensive than to travel to Texas!

Yeah, I have a number of South American friends - Colombia, Argentina - and they day the same, actually.

RejectSteve · Post by **RejectSteve** » 31 Jul 2010, 06:04

F1000X wrote:The fact is Americans simply like more aggressive (read as contact, crashes) racing than open wheel cars can provide. Touring cars have NEVER caught on in this country despite attempts (NATCC was a failed Supertouring series).

USTCC was nothing more than a club series as well, I think that's gone under now as well. The NATCC grid failed because they had one dominant factory team (PacWest Dodge), two or three serious private teams, and a bunch of hopelessly operated cars. Despite that, they had an F1 reject on their grids with Desire Wilson doing a few events. Some of the cars in the field were not available to the public in the US (Mazda Xedos, Vauxhall Cavalier, etc.) either. Introducing the championship in support of the CART series was a good step but many of the fans would leave before the Supertourers started their races so it wasn't even well attended and the series was never going to be able to stand on its own feet.

F1000X wrote:Holding the next F1 race in Texas makes sense for only one reason I can think of, it puts it closer to South America, where more interest in F1 lies.

Dallas/Ft. Worth is also the 3rd largest airport in the country so that will help with European crowds as well.

F1000X wrote:If you want to get the attention of Americans, bring F1 back to long beach, or better yet, have them race on the oval at Indianapolis. Show Americans something faster at Indy than Indycars and everyone will take notice.

Two words: Guest entries. Put a couple of NASCrap drivers in there and they'll watch at least one race.

coops · Post by **coops** » 31 Jul 2010, 07:22

RejectSteve wrote:Two words: Guest entries. Put a couple of NASCrap drivers in there and they'll watch at least one race.

Juan (Pablo) Montoya and Danica Patrick?

thehemogoblin · Post by **thehemogoblin** » 31 Jul 2010, 07:30

coops wrote:
RejectSteve wrote:Two words: Guest entries. Put a couple of NASCrap drivers in there and they'll watch at least one race.

Juan (Pablo) Montoya and Danica Patrick?

Most American fans don't really like JPM. Try Jeff Gordon or Jimmie Johnson or Dale Earnhardt, Jr.

Jordan192 · Post by **Jordan192** » 31 Jul 2010, 08:50

thehemogoblin wrote:
coops wrote:
RejectSteve wrote:Two words: Guest entries. Put a couple of NASCrap drivers in there and they'll watch at least one race.

Juan (Pablo) Montoya and Danica Patrick?

Most American fans don't really like JPM. Try Jeff Gordon or Jimmie Johnson or Dale Earnhardt, Jr.

"Jeff Gordon's a Racecar driver too? I thought he was Cereal Box model."

Nessafox · Post by **Nessafox** » 31 Jul 2010, 23:08

yeah, and maybe jeff gordon could use his dakar-hummer! :roll:

thehemogoblin · Post by **thehemogoblin** » 31 Jul 2010, 23:40

This wrote:yeah, and maybe jeff gordon could use his dakar-hummer!

That was Robby Gordon.

coops · Post by **coops** » 01 Aug 2010, 06:58

Thanks for all the responses. Based on whats been posted it seems that F1 is doomed to forever lurk on the peripheral of US awareness until they get a bona fide American star to root for, guest appearances notwithstanding.

So, who is likely to fulfil that role? Seems like he doesnt HAVE to be American, but from that general area. It needs to be some established racer not some spotty youth on his way up the ladder, any ideas?

McJaggers · Post by **McJaggers** » 01 Aug 2010, 07:24

Jacques Villeneuve

muttley · Post by **muttley** » 01 Aug 2010, 08:30

McJaggers wrote:Jacques Villeneuve

Oh yeah! Because Americans love Quebec Canadians :lol:

You know what? Who cares about America? I'd like to see a WDC from Bhutan.

shinji · Post by **shinji** » 01 Aug 2010, 10:20

Alex Rossi

F1000X · Post by **F1000X** » 01 Aug 2010, 12:02

coops wrote:Thanks for all the responses. Based on whats been posted it seems that F1 is doomed to forever lurk on the peripheral of US awareness until they get a bona fide American star to root for, guest appearances notwithstanding.

So, who is likely to fulfil that role? Seems like he doesnt HAVE to be American, but from that general area. It needs to be some established racer not some spotty youth on his way up the ladder, any ideas?

KYLE BUSCH. SERIOUSLY.

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 01 Aug 2010, 13:01

shinji wrote:Alex Rossi

FOR SHAME.
To the naughty step you go Shinji.

Paul Tracy...much better.
Or maybe Dale Earnhardt Jr. needs a career change.

F1000X · Post by **F1000X** » 01 Aug 2010, 13:56

kostas22 wrote:Paul Tracy...much better.
Or maybe Dale Earnhardt Jr. needs a career change.

Tracy is past it, a great driver, but he wouldn't cut it in Formula 1. A few years back maybe, but not now. Look what happened to Bourdais, who mopped the floor with Tracy for years.

Junior would NEVER stand a chance. I love the guy, but he is an oval man to the core.

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 01 Aug 2010, 14:02

F1000X wrote:
kostas22 wrote:Paul Tracy...much better.
Or maybe Dale Earnhardt Jr. needs a career change.

Tracy is past it, a great driver, but he wouldn't cut it in Formula 1. A few years back maybe, but not now. Look what happened to Bourdais, who mopped the floor with Tracy for years.

Nowadays that may be true, but imagine if he'd signed for Benetton in 1994...pretty sure Schumacher would have been put in his place off-track if not on it!

F1000X · Post by **F1000X** » 01 Aug 2010, 14:15

kostas22 wrote: Nowadays that may be true, but imagine if he'd signed for Benetton in 1994...pretty sure Schumacher would have been put in his place off-track if not on it!

Did that almost happen? I don't think Tracy had enough discipline back then, he was VERY fast especially against the likes of Mansell and Fittipaldi, but history showed he had a tendency to overstep his limits all too often (all his crashes in 93.) But yeah, the first time Schumacher wrecked or blocked Tracy, he'd get that big chin of his broken by the Canadian, and how sweet that would be.

Salamander · Post by **Salamander** » 01 Aug 2010, 16:36

Personally, I think it's a shame that Jeff Gordon wound up in NASCAR - IIRC he drove a Williams around Indy in 2003, and found himself quite comfortable with the car. If he had wound up in F1, I reckon he would've won at least one world championship, and probably more. I think the fact that he absolutely destroyed the field in the period 1995-1998, winning an average of 1 race every 3-and-a-bit races in a series where the cars are all quite equal speaks for itself.

Apart from him, I don't really see any other American-region driver that could've made enough of an impact in F1 to warrant the US' attention, other than maybe Jimmie Johnson, and very possibly Robert Wickens. The problem really stems from the CART/IRL split - it lowered America's interest in open-wheel racing in general, and I think it'll take a decades for the IRL to get enough steam to generate one really good American driver that can adapt to F1.

F1000X · Post by **F1000X** » 01 Aug 2010, 23:18

BlindCaveSalamander wrote:Personally, I think it's a shame that Jeff Gordon wound up in NASCAR - IIRC he drove a Williams around Indy in 2003, and found himself quite comfortable with the car. If he had wound up in F1, I reckon he would've won at least one world championship, and probably more. I think the fact that he absolutely destroyed the field in the period 1995-1998, winning an average of 1 race every 3-and-a-bit races in a series where the cars are all quite equal speaks for itself.

Apart from him, I don't really see any other American-region driver that could've made enough of an impact in F1 to warrant the US' attention, other than maybe Jimmie Johnson, and very possibly Robert Wickens. The problem really stems from the CART/IRL split - it lowered America's interest in open-wheel racing in general, and I think it'll take a decades for the IRL to get enough steam to generate one really good American driver that can adapt to F1.

AJ Almendinger showed some flashes of brilliance before he sold out and went to Nascar. In 2007 (I think) when Rusport fired him mid-season, Forsythe Racing picked him up, and he won the next THREE races in a row, besting established Forsythe driver Paul Tracy with ease. He may have had a shot if he'd seriously considered jumping across the pond.

Salamander · Post by **Salamander** » 02 Aug 2010, 00:16

F1000X wrote:
BlindCaveSalamander wrote:Personally, I think it's a shame that Jeff Gordon wound up in NASCAR - IIRC he drove a Williams around Indy in 2003, and found himself quite comfortable with the car. If he had wound up in F1, I reckon he would've won at least one world championship, and probably more. I think the fact that he absolutely destroyed the field in the period 1995-1998, winning an average of 1 race every 3-and-a-bit races in a series where the cars are all quite equal speaks for itself.

Apart from him, I don't really see any other American-region driver that could've made enough of an impact in F1 to warrant the US' attention, other than maybe Jimmie Johnson, and very possibly Robert Wickens. The problem really stems from the CART/IRL split - it lowered America's interest in open-wheel racing in general, and I think it'll take a decades for the IRL to get enough steam to generate one really good American driver that can adapt to F1.

AJ Almendinger showed some flashes of brilliance before he sold out and went to Nascar. In 2007 (I think) when Rusport fired him mid-season, Forsythe Racing picked him up, and he won the next THREE races in a row, besting established Forsythe driver Paul Tracy with ease. He may have had a shot if he'd seriously considered jumping across the pond.

Ah, yes, I'd forgotten about Allmendinger. Never actually watched him race, but I've heard about 2007.

F1000X · Post by **F1000X** » 02 Aug 2010, 01:36

BlindCaveSalamander wrote: Ah, yes, I'd forgotten about Allmendinger. Never actually watched him race, but I've heard about 2007.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4qBOpwkpCw He was the real deal. Also, why doesn't F1 go here?

Waris · Post by **Waris** » 03 Aug 2010, 04:54

I would love to see Dario Franchitti and/or Hélio Castroneves getting a go at F1, although they're probably too old for that now. (Actually, if I'm really honest, I want to see Tony Kanaan in F1, but this seems a bit far-fetched now...)

Also, um, Scott Dixon? I remember there being pretty serious rumours about him going to Williams in 2005 (there were also rumors of Mika Häkkinen, btw).

And in the future, I would like to see Jonathan Summerton, Marco Andretti (I don't think he'd ever cut it, but just out of interest, to see how the next generation Andretti would fare), Robert Wickens, that other Canadian guy what's his name, and oh oh and J.R. HILDEBRAND!

Edit: ffff, how could I forget this? Simona de bathplugging Silvestro too, of course.

RejectSteve · Post by **RejectSteve** » 03 Aug 2010, 18:19

Waris wrote:(I don't think he'd ever cut it, but just out of interest, to see how the next generation Andretti would fare

The Grandfather - World Champion. The Father - Lucky Bastard. The Son - I see a trend.

Enforcer · Post by **Enforcer** » 03 Aug 2010, 19:22

kostas22 wrote:
F1000X wrote:
kostas22 wrote:Paul Tracy...much better.
Or maybe Dale Earnhardt Jr. needs a career change.

Tracy is past it, a great driver, but he wouldn't cut it in Formula 1. A few years back maybe, but not now. Look what happened to Bourdais, who mopped the floor with Tracy for years.

Nowadays that may be true, but imagine if he'd signed for Benetton in 1994...pretty sure Schumacher would have been put in his place off-track if not on it!

Given the twitchiness of the B194 and Tracy's recklessness, he might have racked up 16 DNFs, been packed back to the States by Flavio and been the most spectacular reject ever.

Nah, in all seriousness he could've done a bit better than Letho/Verstappen, given the gizmo days were gone and it wouldn't have been as big a change from his passively suspended Penske.

Waris · Post by **Waris** » 03 Aug 2010, 20:57

Speaking of Penske, since American constructors seem to have a hard time getting into F1 - USF1 only succeeded in producing a nosecone, and Cypher has no money - why don't they just come back? It would be interesting.

watka · Post by **watka** » 03 Aug 2010, 22:05

Waris wrote:Speaking of Penske, since American constructors seem to have a hard time getting into F1 - USF1 only succeeded in producing a nosecone, and Cypher has no money - why don't they just come back? It would be interesting.

I believe that John Watson actually won a race once for Penske. I would have thought that the only other American manufacturer to win a race was Eagle with Dan Gurney.

Correction: Shadow also won a race and could be considered American.

F1000X · Post by **F1000X** » 03 Aug 2010, 23:16

Waris wrote:Speaking of Penske, since American constructors seem to have a hard time getting into F1 - USF1 only succeeded in producing a nosecone, and Cypher has no money - why don't they just come back? It would be interesting.

Never gonna happen. 1. Roger isn't the kind of guy who goes racing unless he has a guaranteed shot at winning. 2. Roger is more interested in racing in America. Case in point, his ALMS team (now the third Indycar team) and their Porsche RS Spyders NEVER made an appearance at Le Mans despite being tipped every year as a team with an effortless shot at winning their class. 3. Roger doesn't have the money. If he wanted to go F1 racing, Roger would have to cease competition in either NASCAR or Indycar, and hope he could get his sponsors to follow him across the pond. That will simply not happen.

The biggest problem, is that Penske no longer has a chassis design and construction facility like it did in the past. If they were still building their own chassis, it might be a different story.

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 04 Aug 2010, 06:35

Waris wrote:that other Canadian guy what's his name

Daniel Morad?

A team like Lotus or Sauber could do far worse than sign either or both young Canadians from GP3 in their development program. Morad's been quick but inconsistant and Wickens has A1 GP credentials and is currently 2nd in GP3 behind Esteban Gutierrez.

RejectSteve · Post by **RejectSteve** » 04 Aug 2010, 20:08

Wizzie wrote:
Waris wrote:that other Canadian guy what's his name

Daniel Morad?

A team like Lotus or Sauber could do far worse than sign either or both young Canadians from GP3 in their development program. Morad's been quick but inconsistant and Wickens has A1 GP credentials and is currently 2nd in GP3 behind Esteban Gutierrez.

Morad also has pedigree with A1GP, having driven for both Canada and Lebanon. I believe both have won the Formula BMW USA championship in past years. Admittedly, the grids in the US series were sparse, to put it mildly.

Waris · Post by **Waris** » 05 Aug 2010, 15:44

Actually, I just noticed Bruno Spengler was Canadian. OMG!! I didn't know that. If Jacques Villeneuve gets that slot for the 13th team, he should definitely sign him up as his second driver.

Also, that Lance Stroller guy seems pretty good for the future.

captainhappy · Post by **captainhappy** » 06 Aug 2010, 04:57

Scott Speed.

That would have been more salient as a full stop, but I do have something to add.

My experience in Canada, and I'm sure would be similar in much of the states, is this. It is an EXtreme rarity to meet a person who knows the slightest thing about F1 or open wheel racing. We (assuming I am not alone), basically need to turn to the internet to be part of a motoring community. The U.S. grand prix only has one shot; to have a SCHUMACHERESQE type champion with a cowboy hat and asskickin attitude.

coops · Post by **coops** » 06 Aug 2010, 07:19

captainhappy wrote:Scott Speed.

I always thought Scott Speed was a potential star, I think his sacking wasnt just about his performance as Toro Rosso have employed bigger donkeys than him since.

But being a star isnt just about being a winner.

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 06 Aug 2010, 07:23

coops wrote:I think his sacking wasnt just about his performance as Toro Rosso have employed bigger donkeys than him since.

Well getting into a fight with your boss doesn't do your career any favours now does it?

coops · Post by **coops** » 06 Aug 2010, 07:49

Wizzie wrote:
coops wrote:I think his sacking wasnt just about his performance as Toro Rosso have employed bigger donkeys than him since.

Well getting into a fight with your boss doesn't do your career any favours now does it?

No, but it should do. Im not referring to Speed here but I want to see racing drivers with a bit of fire in their bellies, a bit of passion and them not being afraid to cross the boundaries from time to time. Alonso irritates me with his petulance but when he does things like barge his way past Massa in China I punch the sky. Where F1 could be heading is a calm, grey world of PR where the only thing we see is cars going round a track only overtaking when its certain not to upset anybody.

Perhaps I should have posted all the above on the Rantbox page.