2010 Italian Grand Prix - Discussion

Post by **mario** » 06 Sep 2010, 13:10

With three and a bit days to go until practise, I think that it may be worth opening this thread in the build up to Monza.
First off, we have some interesting uncertainly over the F-duct systems used by some teams. Renault is still undecided as to whether they will keep their F-duct system on the car, given that the Monza spec package is effectively unique, with very shallow and small rear wings. Since the rear wing is so small, they believe that the difficulty of integrating their F-duct into the rear wing is not worthwhile, especially as the rear wing will be generating significantly less drag then usual. http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/86439
Meanwhile, it is known that Mclaren are also less certain about the F-duct, and plan on running back to back testing during the Friday practise sessions, with each driver taking it in turn to try out the F-duct against a conventional rear wing set up.

However, over at Williams, Sam Michael is very clear about what his team will do - he has declared it to be a 'no brainer' that they will run an F-duct at Monza (presumably in the expectation that Williams might be able to capitalise on the additional downforce through the fast turns in the second sector). http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/86434

Meanwhile, despite the slight F-duct uncertainly over at Mclaren, both of their drivers are quite bullish about their chances - Button believes that he can rebound here to make up for lost ground in Spa, whilst Hamilton is determined to take a win at Monza to add to the triumvirate of wins at Monaco, Spa and Silverstone (which he considers the classic, and slightly more special, circuits to win at). Naturally, given the performance advantage of the Mercedes F108W, it isn't surprising that they should believe that they are in good shape for the win.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/86343
Over at Red Bull, meanwhile, a more contrite Vettel has admitted that he has made a few too many errors recently, and has pledged to learn from his mistakes. Naturally, he also believes that he can quickly bounce back at Monza with a points finish, and that he can take the title this year, despite his 31 point deficit to his team mate. http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/86334

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 06 Sep 2010, 15:05

I'm quite surprised by the F-duct doubts. It seemed quite reasonable that everyone would be using it - I think I read Toro Rosso will be introducing theirs in Monza.

Funny we're not hearing too much from Force India, they should be quite looking forward to Monza.

razta · Post by **razta** » 06 Sep 2010, 15:29

just hope there's an All MIGHTY reject moment from one of the top 2 drivers.. just to spic-en things up nicely

eagleash · Post by **eagleash** » 06 Sep 2010, 15:54

Wake me up about 9AM on Friday someone....

Sam Michael says the the F-duct is a no-brainer for Monza.....

patrick · Post by **patrick** » 06 Sep 2010, 16:54

I'm feeling quite bullish that the f1 press will stop using the term bullish. it's annoying - especially used in conjunction with "Red bull" :lol:

looks like it could be a good race though, hopefully sutil gets it right this time round

Debaser · Post by **Debaser** » 06 Sep 2010, 17:56

Force India should go like stink at Monza, they have loads of grunt and a decent low downforce package. Sutil was 5th at Spa and hardly got a mention, which is a credit to him. He could challenge for the podium this weekend, I expect him to finish in the top 5.

Red Bull should struggle here, on the straights they'll be mugged by cars with much more power than they have. It'll make a change to see someone else on pole.

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 06 Sep 2010, 18:13

I was wondering... are the aero requirements of Monza more similar to Spa's or Montreal's?

Post by **mario** » 06 Sep 2010, 19:26

CarlosFerreira wrote:I'm quite surprised by the F-duct doubts. It seemed quite reasonable that everyone would be using it - I think I read Toro Rosso will be introducing theirs in Monza.

Funny we're not hearing too much from Force India, they should be quite looking forward to Monza.

It does seem to be puzzling a few people, and I am not sure that there is any particular clear cut reason why some teams are so uncertain. I believe that part of the problem is that, if a team uses a bigger rear wing, the front wing angle should be increased to maintain the overall balance, otherwise the front of the car will tend to understeer wide (as the front will loose grip first). Of course, increasing the front wing will increase the front wing drag, so running a bigger wing doesn't come for free, as it were - and drag is something that you are desperately trying to reduce at Monza.

That brings a few more problems - if the front wing angle is too steep, the diversion of the air flow starts to disrupt the air flow beneath the car (i.e. the under tray region). Eventually, you reach a tipping point where the air flow beneath the car is beginning to stall, and the overall downforce generated by the car drops.
And, finally, there is the pragmatic consideration that, with the rear wing being so slender at Monza, attaching an F-duct would be difficult, due to the size of the duct.

CarlosFerreira wrote:I was wondering... are the aero requirements of Monza more similar to Spa's or Montreal's?

In terms of engine and brake cooling, you are probably closer to Montreal then Spa (the heavy braking zones at the first and second chicanes, as well as the Parabolica, put a lot of energy through the brakes).

Faustus · Post by **Faustus** » 06 Sep 2010, 19:44

mario wrote:[
CarlosFerreira wrote:I was wondering... are the aero requirements of Monza more similar to Spa's or Montreal's?

In terms of engine and brake cooling, you are probably closer to Montreal then Spa (the heavy braking zones at the first and second chicanes, as well as the Parabolica, put a lot of energy through the brakes).

You are correct. Spa is actually not that low-downforce, despite what seems to be believed. It is not that bad an idea to have a compromise set-up at Spa and some people have achieved some very decent results running slighly higher downforce. The added stability through the high-speed corners is quite useful. The set-up is not too different from Suzuka, really. Indianapolis was a bit like that as well, the set-up wasn't that low-downforce. Arrows found that out in 2000, when they turned up with a Monza set-up that was blindingly quick around the banking but ridiculously slow through the slow infield section.
Montreal and Monza are very different, the aerodynamic set-up is completely tailored towards drag reduction.
The old Hockenheim (the proper one, in my view) could be done quite nicely with a higher downforce set-up, because of the Stadium section. Ferrari with Salo and Irvine ran that kind of set-up in 1999 and did really well with it.

Faustus · Post by **Faustus** » 06 Sep 2010, 19:49

Not sure why I got a double-post. Sorry about this.

Faustus · Post by **Faustus** » 06 Sep 2010, 19:51

mario wrote:
CarlosFerreira wrote:I'm quite surprised by the F-duct doubts. It seemed quite reasonable that everyone would be using it - I think I read Toro Rosso will be introducing theirs in Monza.

Funny we're not hearing too much from Force India, they should be quite looking forward to Monza.

It does seem to be puzzling a few people, and I am not sure that there is any particular clear cut reason why some teams are so uncertain. I believe that part of the problem is that, if a team uses a bigger rear wing, the front wing angle should be increased to maintain the overall balance, otherwise the front of the car will tend to understeer wide (as the front will loose grip first). Of course, increasing the front wing will increase the front wing drag, so running a bigger wing doesn't come for free, as it were - and drag is something that you are desperately trying to reduce at Monza.

That brings a few more problems - if the front wing angle is too steep, the diversion of the air flow starts to disrupt the air flow beneath the car (i.e. the under tray region). Eventually, you reach a tipping point where the air flow beneath the car is beginning to stall, and the overall downforce generated by the car drops.
And, finally, there is the pragmatic consideration that, with the rear wing being so slender at Monza, attaching an F-duct would be difficult, due to the size of the duct.

You're right, the problem is mostly the size of the F-duct and the associated engine cover, which is not really ideal for Monza. I'm not surprised at all that some teams who have working F-ducts are considering not running them at Monza.

eagleash · Post by **eagleash** » 06 Sep 2010, 20:01

CarlosFerreira wrote:I'm quite surprised by the F-duct doubts. It seemed quite reasonable that everyone would be using it - I think I read Toro Rosso will be introducing theirs in Monza.

Funny we're not hearing too much from Force India, they should be quite looking forward to Monza.

Given their repeated shambolic efforts, staff losses & legal actions, they're probably only looking forward to the end of the season.

Mister Fungus · Post by **Mister Fungus** » 06 Sep 2010, 21:47

I expect HRT to do relatively well, maybe even be up to par with Lotus and Virgin.

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 07 Sep 2010, 07:53

Thank you, mario and Faustus.

eagleash wrote:
CarlosFerreira wrote:I'm quite surprised by the F-duct doubts. It seemed quite reasonable that everyone would be using it - I think I read Toro Rosso will be introducing theirs in Monza.

Funny we're not hearing too much from Force India, they should be quite looking forward to Monza.

Given their repeated shambolic efforts, staff losses & legal actions, they're probably only looking forward to the end of the season.

I wonder if Aerolab is still grinding that legal axe. Never heard of that again.

eagleash · Post by **eagleash** » 07 Sep 2010, 08:05

CarlosFerreira wrote:Thank you, mario and Faustus.

eagleash wrote:
CarlosFerreira wrote:I'm quite surprised by the F-duct doubts. It seemed quite reasonable that everyone would be using it - I think I read Toro Rosso will be introducing theirs in Monza.

Funny we're not hearing too much from Force India, they should be quite looking forward to Monza.

Given their repeated shambolic efforts, staff losses & legal actions, they're probably only looking forward to the end of the season.

I wonder if Aerolab is still grinding that legal axe. Never heard of that again.

It came up again within the last 3/4 weeks; possibly whilst you were away....

http://www.itv-f1.com/news_article.aspx?id=49055

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 07 Sep 2010, 08:19

eagleash wrote:It came up again within the last 3/4 weeks; possibly whilst you were away....

http://www.itv-f1.com/news_article.aspx?id=49055

I had picked that up (plus Joe Saward's post...

), I just haven't heard anything this last week. And the trucks are due in Italy tomorrow or something...

eagleash · Post by **eagleash** » 07 Sep 2010, 08:27

CarlosFerreira wrote:
eagleash wrote:It came up again within the last 3/4 weeks; possibly whilst you were away....

http://www.itv-f1.com/news_article.aspx?id=49055

I had picked that up (plus Joe Saward's post... ), I just haven't heard anything this last week. And the trucks are due in Italy tomorrow or something...

I doubt they'd actually try to stop India running in Italy.....the precedent would not be in their favour. Legal action still looks to be on the cards though.

Post by **mario** » 07 Sep 2010, 09:32

eagleash wrote:
CarlosFerreira wrote:
eagleash wrote:It came up again within the last 3/4 weeks; possibly whilst you were away....

http://www.itv-f1.com/news_article.aspx?id=49055

I had picked that up (plus Joe Saward's post... ), I just haven't heard anything this last week. And the trucks are due in Italy tomorrow or something...

I doubt they'd actually try to stop India running in Italy.....the precedent would not be in their favour. Legal action still looks to be on the cards though.

I think that Aerolab has been using the threat of legal action, whilst Force India is within Italian jurisdiction, to bring Force India to the negotiating table. It is possible that they may interfere with Force India's operations at Monza, but it is more likely that they will just threaten to - that will create a lot of publicity for them, which is likely to further embarrass Force India and encourage them to pay up their legal costs more quickly.

As to the race itself, it seems that Red Bull are, perhaps surprisingly, still seem to expect a fairly strong result at Monza, despite the slight power deficit of their engine, and their slightly lower top speed. This time, it is Webber who is now eyeing up a strong result. http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/86448
Although he sounds a little cautious, he still expects "a strong result" - which implies that he believes that he can be on the podium.

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 07 Sep 2010, 10:03

Not really wanting to jinx it for Vettel, in my mind there is the equation:

small wings + red mist + (insecurity)^2 = big crash

Let's see how his weekend develops. If he can pull it together after this horrible phase that started in Spain, he may become all people expect of him. If he can't...

GwilymJJames · Post by **GwilymJJames** » 07 Sep 2010, 10:45

Mister Fungus wrote:I expect HRT to do relatively well, maybe even be up to par with Lotus and Virgin.

Does anyone know if HRT have said if it is to be Senna & Yamamoto again? I know that Yamamoto is supposedly in for the rest of the season, but I wasn't sure if they'd confirmed Senna/Chandhok/Klien to be with him for Monza...

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 07 Sep 2010, 11:48

CarlosFerreira wrote:Not really wanting to jinx it for Vettel, in my mind there is the equation:

small wings + red mist + (insecurity)^2 = big crash

To be honest I'm almost expecting Vettel to take out a thrid of the field in the run down to the first chicane considering his startline antics this year.

eagleash · Post by **eagleash** » 07 Sep 2010, 12:15

mario wrote:
eagleash wrote:
CarlosFerreira wrote:
I had picked that up (plus Joe Saward's post... ), I just haven't heard anything this last week. And the trucks are due in Italy tomorrow or something...

I doubt they'd actually try to stop India running in Italy.....the precedent would not be in their favour. Legal action still looks to be on the cards though.

I think that Aerolab has been using the threat of legal action, whilst Force India is within Italian jurisdiction, to bring Force India to the negotiating table. It is possible that they may interfere with Force India's operations at Monza, but it is more likely that they will just threaten to - that will create a lot of publicity for them, which is likely to further embarrass Force India and encourage them to pay up their legal costs more quickly.

That's kind of what I was meaning, however, Carlos' original thought was that India might be looking forward to Monza. Whereas, given a fairly torrid season thus far (as detailed previously), they are probably looking forward to seasons end when hopefully they can re-group.

Post by **mario** » 07 Sep 2010, 12:34

Wizzie wrote:
CarlosFerreira wrote:Not really wanting to jinx it for Vettel, in my mind there is the equation:

small wings + red mist + (insecurity)^2 = big crash

To be honest I'm almost expecting Vettel to take out a thrid of the field in the run down to the first chicane considering his startline antics this year.

Which probably means that the battle for pole may be even more important then usual - in order to put a bit of distance between yourself and Vettel...

On a more serious note, though, it does seem that the major first lap incidents are more likely to start around the second chicane, because the drivers are backing off a little into the first turn, to make sure that they don't get penalised for cutting the track. But, because the field is still quite tightly bunched up, we have seen a few broken wings and punctured tyres at the second chicane. It is a popular passing spot, but it is also risky - as Webber found out last year, courtesy of Kubica.
Given that it is fairly tight down into the firs chicane, should Vettel start weaving about again as he is loath to do, there is a good chance of a pretty big pile up. The irony is, most of the times that he has swerved around off the start, it hasn't helped him out, and more often then not it has backfired on him - loosing a place at Silverstone, before picking up that puncture from Hamilton's wing or being passed by Alonso and Massa in Germany because he was so far off line.

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 08 Sep 2010, 10:37

Emerson Fittipaldi to be the driver steward this weekend at Monza.

coops · Post by **coops** » 10 Sep 2010, 09:01

Top marks for Kobayashi for getting lost in the run off at the end of the pit straight ("What dem arrows mean?"). He even clunked one of the polystyrene blocks and gave them a contemptible wave too! ("Who put dem derr!").

Shizuka · Post by **Shizuka** » 10 Sep 2010, 10:16

Results of FP1

So far, McLaren seems to be there where I expected. At the front. Vettel split them up.
Kubica's 4th place is a definite positive result. Liuzzi 7th... seems like he feels only good on Monza.
Alonso and Massa 8th and 9th... not looking good.

Awaiting FP2!

Walsh_e · Post by **Walsh_e** » 10 Sep 2010, 11:22

Yamamoto over 1.5 seconds slower than Bruno despite having twice as much track time! Looks like the new teams lack of downforce won't hurt them as much here either, outside chance (depending on how many people Vettel knocks off the track, that they could get close to the top 10, 12th/13th maybe.

coops · Post by **coops** » 10 Sep 2010, 11:58

The BBC coverage often pans over the historic old banking and it looks sensational. Just imagine for a second a car racing through that corner. Beautiful.

Shizuka · Post by **Shizuka** » 10 Sep 2010, 14:07

FP2 results

Ferrari in the first three, Barrichello in the top ten, McLaren and Kubica slipped back!

FullMetalJack · Post by **FullMetalJack** » 10 Sep 2010, 15:27

Yamamoto in 23rd was almost 3 seconds slower than Glock in 22nd. Senna did not set a time. Encouraging FP2 for Williams.

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 10 Sep 2010, 15:46

coops wrote:Top marks for Kobayashi for getting lost in the run off at the end of the pit straight ("What dem arrows mean?"). He even clunked one of the polystyrene blocks and gave them a contemptible wave too! ("Who put dem derr!").

Are you serious? :lol:

patrick · Post by **patrick** » 10 Sep 2010, 17:34

Did anyone else think that was Joe Saward talking to Christian Horner right at the beginning of FP1 on the FOM feed? Dare he actually look like a credible journalist

coops · Post by **coops** » 10 Sep 2010, 17:44

CarlosFerreira wrote:
coops wrote:Top marks for Kobayashi for getting lost in the run off at the end of the pit straight ("What dem arrows mean?"). He even clunked one of the polystyrene blocks and gave them a contemptible wave too! ("Who put dem derr!").

Are you serious?

Deadly. He hesitated at the first row of blocks with the arrows pointing in one direction then steered the opposite way. I mean thats PS1 Gran Turismo stuff that is. At the second row he was totally flummoxed and clipped the block furthest to his right. The Annoyed-F1-Driver-Hand-FlapTM was the icing on the cake.

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 10 Sep 2010, 18:05

coops wrote:
CarlosFerreira wrote:
coops wrote:Top marks for Kobayashi for getting lost in the run off at the end of the pit straight ("What dem arrows mean?"). He even clunked one of the polystyrene blocks and gave them a contemptible wave too! ("Who put dem derr!").

Are you serious?

Deadly. He hesitated at the first row of blocks with the arrows pointing in one direction then steered the opposite way. I mean thats PS1 Gran Turismo stuff that is. At the second row he was totally flummoxed and clipped the block furthest to his right. The Annoyed-F1-Driver-Hand-FlapTM was the icing on the cake.

Amazing!

Phoenix · Post by **Phoenix** » 10 Sep 2010, 21:25

coops wrote:
CarlosFerreira wrote:
coops wrote:Top marks for Kobayashi for getting lost in the run off at the end of the pit straight ("What dem arrows mean?"). He even clunked one of the polystyrene blocks and gave them a contemptible wave too! ("Who put dem derr!").

Are you serious?

Deadly. He hesitated at the first row of blocks with the arrows pointing in one direction then steered the opposite way. I mean thats PS1 Gran Turismo stuff that is. At the second row he was totally flummoxed and clipped the block furthest to his right. The Annoyed-F1-Driver-Hand-FlapTM was the icing on the cake.

He was doing that on purpose, to amuse us. He's a demigod, he doesn't make hose mistakes involuntarily.

Post by **mario** » 10 Sep 2010, 23:11

Interesting development ahead of tomorrow's practise session. It was known that Mclaren have been splitting their testing in FP2, with Button and Hamilton both trying out different configurations (Button going for a F-duct, and relatively large rear wing, whilst Hamilton has the more traditional Monza spec "razor blade" rear wing and no F-duct). Even so, despite the very different aero configurations, Button and Hamilton have been very evenly matched, with Button finishing the day a mere 0.056s behind Hamilton.
It appears, however, that Button and Hamilton have gone for a different approach for the race - it looks like Button may have gone for the F-duct wing, and aims to make up time in the second sector, whilst Hamilton has gone for the conventional Monza set up. In theory, Button's car should slide around less (which in theory should help him preserve his tyres, although he already does well on that front, and tyre wear isn't problematic according to the teams), and be slightly more stable whe braking, particularly on full tanks, but on the main straight, Hamilton will potentially have a speed advantage to make an overtaking move, should he be in that situation. Either way, we could have a very interesting strategic battle on our hands over the next few days. http://adamcooperf1.com/2010/09/10/hami ... ent-wings/

coops · Post by **coops** » 11 Sep 2010, 07:26

Phoenix wrote:He was doing that on purpose, to amuse us. He's a demigod, he doesn't make hose mistakes involuntarily.

Agreed. He's the driver Yamamoto hopes to be when he grows up.

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 11 Sep 2010, 09:24

Free Practice 3

Michael Shumacher's team radio: Check the driver drink.
(Schumacher checks and confirms)

David Croft, Radio 5 Live on BBC Red Button: Lime? Strawberry? What flavour do you think he has this weekend, Karun?

Ferrim · Post by **Ferrim** » 11 Sep 2010, 09:54

Oh boy, I absolutely LOVE to see them racing in a proper track, with gravel traps.

Now if a driver goes off, he actually pays for it.

Post by **mario** » 11 Sep 2010, 10:23

It's been a bit problematic for Webber this weekend, as it looks like Webber has had an engine failure during the final practise session.
As for the race, it transpires that Webber expects Vettel to beat him, as Vettel has a fresh engine for this race, whilst Webber does not (Vettel, Senna and the two Renault drivers, it turns out, did not use fresh engines for Spa).

[EDIT] A quick correction to Webber's engine - it turns out that the engine itself is ok, and been cleared for use for the rest of the weekend. According to Red Bull, the reason that Mark had to stop out on track was because of a small airbox fire. http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/86583