You Lucky Bastard for teams?

[FMecha]

What about BMS Scuderia Italia? How many points have they scored over the years?

I was going to say that, man, thanks!

[David AGS]

Here is a team, that scored 2 points in 5 seasons, and ARE NOT on the main site.

Erik Zakowski's Zakspeed team.

Not much in terms of chassis, but okay in drivers. Christian Danner in 1986, (F3000 Champ in 85'), Jonathan Palmer, Martin Brundle, Aguri Suzuki, Bernd Schneider, and em. Huub Rottengather and Ghinzani.

I think they tried to handle too much to so few. Chassis, engines etc. Saying that, they did no better with a Yamaha engine, and a chassis designed I think by Gustav Brunner.

They also brought 'West' to F1.

The only points scored, was a 5th place to Brundle in 1987 at San Marino.

[DanielPT]

I guess Zakspeed turned out to be lucky bastards because Jamie and Enoch decided to turn their attentions to other outfits!

[Jeroen Krautmeir]

Would love to see a Zakspeed profile!

I also think we need a Theodore profile.

[David AGS]

Should give a lot of credit to Zakspeed.

For a team that did everything on their own (engine/chassis), they were at times competetive, and a lot lot lot more successful than our friends at Death. Sory, I mean Life.

[Phoenix]

Should give a lot of credit to Zakspeed.

For a team that did everything on their own (engine/chassis), they were at times competetive, and a lot lot lot more successful than our friends at Death. Sory, I mean Life.

Well, if you call competitive to run on the midfield once in awhile, then they indeed were.

[Jeroen Krautmeir]

Sorry to ressurect this, but has anyone thought about the Fittipaldi team? They happened to be somewhat competitive, but I always thought this was down to the talent of Emerson and later on Keke. Perhaps someone could tell us a bit about the Fittipaldi cars.

[James1978]

One I've just thought of is Prost (as a constructor) - the competitive 1997 car was essentially an inherited Ligier, and I think for their 1998 - 2001 results they only just escape due to Trulli's lucky/attritional 2nd at the Nurburgring in 1999? I can only remember them scrpaing a few minor points finishes aside from that!

[mario]

One I've just thought of is Prost (as a constructor) - the competitive 1997 car was essentially an inherited Ligier, and I think for their 1998 - 2001 results they only just escape due to Trulli's lucky/attritional 2nd at the Nurburgring in 1999? I can only remember them scrpaing a few minor points finishes aside from that!

Minor points finishes they may have been, but they probably finished enough times in the minor points positions to escape rejecdom anyway - they had one 6th place finishes in 1998, three 6th places in 1999, no points in 2000 but two 6th's and a 5th place in 2001. I make that 8 points, therefore, during that era, which would mean that even without Trulli's fluke 2nd place they did manage to escape anyway.

Sorry to ressurect this, but has anyone thought about the Fittipaldi team? They happened to be somewhat competitive, but I always thought this was down to the talent of Emerson and later on Keke. Perhaps someone could tell us a bit about the Fittipaldi cars.

Forix covers the decline of the team fairly well ( http://forix.autosport.com/8w/fittipaldi.html ), and it seems that in fact they did briefly have a good run of form in 1978, where they scored 17 points and finished in 7th place in the WCC. Unfortunately, it seems that Ralph Bellamy, when lured across to the team in 1979, came up with the hopelessly uncompetitive F6 (although the fact that he was behind the Trojan car might have been a bit of a hint), and the revamped F5A that they used was out of date by then.
Meanwhile, in 1980, when they bought out Walter Wolf's team, they called in Harvey Postlethwaite to design their new car whilst they pressed the Wolf Racing cars into service in the interim - with none other than Adrian Newey, who'd just recently graduated, as Postlethwaite's understudy. Surprisingly, given that they had two designers who would later become highly respected for their designs, the F8 was a dud, and only scored two points in Rosberg's hands. And with declining funding, the team was eventually destined to slide into bankruptcy and obscurity, although at least Keke was able to get out of there to Williams just in time.

[WIDD]

While they scored more than enough points to avoid rejectdom, I would like to nominate Toyota as rejects.

I mean they spent hundreds of millions of pounds and never really achieved anything, other than a couple of podiums and giving us Kobayashi, which is probably the teams biggest legacy they've given F1. And Nakajima through their partnership with Williams.Enough said.

Also, making Ralf Schumacher the 2nd highest paid driver in F1 when he retired??? Stupidity, absolute stupidity!

[FMecha]

While they scored more than enough points to avoid rejectdom, I would like to nominate Toyota as rejects.

I mean they spent hundreds of millions of pounds and never really achieved anything, other than a couple of podiums and giving us Kobayashi, which is probably the teams biggest legacy they've given F1. And Nakajima through their partnership with Williams.Enough said.

Also, making Ralf Schumacher the 2nd highest paid driver in F1 when he retired??? Stupidity, absolute stupidity!

We can write an article just for that.

[DanielPT]

While they scored more than enough points to avoid rejectdom, I would like to nominate Toyota as rejects.

I mean they spent hundreds of millions of pounds and never really achieved anything, other than a couple of podiums and giving us Kobayashi, which is probably the teams biggest legacy they've given F1. And Nakajima through their partnership with Williams.Enough said.

Also, making Ralf Schumacher the 2nd highest paid driver in F1 when he retired??? Stupidity, absolute stupidity!

We can write an article just for that.

Yes, we could call it an epic "Toyota: A Massive fail!" but a more sound name would be "Toyota: What did went wrong?"

[WIDD]

While they scored more than enough points to avoid rejectdom, I would like to nominate Toyota as rejects.

I mean they spent hundreds of millions of pounds and never really achieved anything, other than a couple of podiums and giving us Kobayashi, which is probably the teams biggest legacy they've given F1. And Nakajima through their partnership with Williams.Enough said.

Also, making Ralf Schumacher the 2nd highest paid driver in F1 when he retired??? Stupidity, absolute stupidity!

We can write an article just for that.

Yes, we could call it an epic "Toyota: A Massive fail!" but a more sound name would be "Toyota: What did went wrong?"

A very simplistic answer: a team with more money than sense and decision making capabilities. But, admittedly, you're right in the sentiment of your statement of course!

[Ferrim]

Toyota: 140 races, 278.5 points, 13 podiums, no wins and no titles!

The most successful driver they ever had was Ralf Schumacher, and he actually fits very well with the team: great promise, flashes of brilliance, but always uninspiring and, in the end, not good enough!

[WIDD]

Toyota: 140 races, 278.5 points, 13 podiums, no wins and no titles!

The most successful driver they ever had was Ralf Schumacher, and he actually fits very well with the team: great promise, flashes of brilliance, but always uninspiring and, in the end, not good enough!

Mind you, have to love the fact they paid top dollar for a driver who best performances ultimately turned out to be in the past! Very modest achievements for a team who pumped in the cash they did, at least BMW won a race and half-competed for a world title in 08.

[nigellamansell]

How many points did Surtees get?

[FullMetalJack]

Leyton House were lucky, whilst they owned the March team, they only got 8 points, 6 of them at the 1990 French Grand Prix.

[DanielPT]

How many points did Surtees get?

53 points. Best classification achieved was 2nd. Hardly rejects.

[Yannick]

Toyota: 140 races, 278.5 points, 13 podiums, no wins and no titles!

The most successful driver they ever had was Ralf Schumacher, and he actually fits very well with the team: great promise, flashes of brilliance, but always uninspiring and, in the end, not good enough!

In that regard, Toyota falls into the same category as Ligier. The latter spent enormous amounts of money for rather little as well.

[Salamander]

Toyota: 140 races, 278.5 points, 13 podiums, no wins and no titles!

The most successful driver they ever had was Ralf Schumacher, and he actually fits very well with the team: great promise, flashes of brilliance, but always uninspiring and, in the end, not good enough!

In that regard, Toyota falls into the same category as Ligier. The latter spent enormous amounts of money for rather little as well.

But at least Ligier were interesting! Toyota and boring are synonymous.

[AndreaModa]

Toyota: 140 races, 278.5 points, 13 podiums, no wins and no titles!

The most successful driver they ever had was Ralf Schumacher, and he actually fits very well with the team: great promise, flashes of brilliance, but always uninspiring and, in the end, not good enough!

In that regard, Toyota falls into the same category as Ligier. The latter spent enormous amounts of money for rather little as well.

But at least Ligier were interesting! Toyota and boring are synonymous.

Exactly, and lasted about twice as long as Toyota, and had a good run at the titles in 1979 and 1980 if I remember correctly.

[Phoenix]

Don't forget 1981 as well. They began on the weak side, and the second car failed to score a point all season, but towards mid season Laffitte bounced back very well and scored two wins and was in the title hunt (albeit marginally) at the last race and still finished 4th at the WCC. Plus, many other years, like 1976-1978, 1982 and 1985-1986 were qually as succesful as Toyota's best.

[DanielPT]

Yes. And Ligier actually won races. Something that cannot be said of Toyota. They did half the races but had 1/5 of podiums. And as Phoenix said, they fighted for the championship. Toyota was a real underperformer...

[mario]

Don't forget 1981 as well. They began on the weak side, and the second car failed to score a point all season, but towards mid season Laffitte bounced back very well and scored two wins and was in the title hunt (albeit marginally) at the last race and still finished 4th at the WCC. Plus, many other years, like 1976-1978, 1982 and 1985-1986 were qually as succesful as Toyota's best.

And in 1979, they were able to fight for both the WCC and WDC - Ligier started out with the best car in the field with the JS11, but the team simply couldn't afford to develop the car. Hell, they barely had enough money to survive at all - their budget was under 5 million Francs, or barely €2 million today, so most of the team personnel and mechanics had to sleep in the garages overnight since Guy Ligier couldn't afford to put them up in a hotel. It is very much a case of what might have been if Ligier had the funds to develop the car in 1979 - even so, they were still able to finish 3rd in the WCC that year, which is better than Toyota ever managed.
In fact, the irony is that whilst in later years Ligier was used as an example of poor organisation, thanks to the sponsorship and free engines lavished on the company by the French state that was wasted on uncompetitive cars, to begin with Ligier was operating on a shoestring. The Toyota Motorsport group, however, hardly ever lacked for funding to say the least (along with a few rumours and accusations that Toyota were carrying out industrial espionage that was targeting Ferrari, especially during development of the F2003-GA).

[thehemogoblin]

Don't forget 1981 as well. They began on the weak side, and the second car failed to score a point all season, but towards mid season Laffitte bounced back very well and scored two wins and was in the title hunt (albeit marginally) at the last race and still finished 4th at the WCC. Plus, many other years, like 1976-1978, 1982 and 1985-1986 were qually as succesful as Toyota's best.

And in 1979, they were able to fight for both the WCC and WDC - Ligier started out with the best car in the field with the JS11, but the team simply couldn't afford to develop the car. Hell, they barely had enough money to survive at all - their budget was under 5 million Francs, or barely €2 million today, so most of the team personnel and mechanics had to sleep in the garages overnight since Guy Ligier couldn't afford to put them up in a hotel. It is very much a case of what might have been if Ligier had the funds to develop the car in 1979 - even so, they were still able to finish 3rd in the WCC that year, which is better than Toyota ever managed.
In fact, the irony is that whilst in later years Ligier was used as an example of poor organisation, thanks to the sponsorship and free engines lavished on the company by the French state that was wasted on uncompetitive cars, to begin with Ligier was operating on a shoestring. The Toyota Motorsport group, however, hardly ever lacked for funding to say the least (along with a few rumours and accusations that Toyota were carrying out industrial espionage that was targeting Ferrari, especially during development of the F2003-GA).

Toyota would have had third when the farce of a US Grand Prix happened, had Ferrari not banked a one-two that day. Ah, if only Tiago Monteiro were faster in the Jordan. *sigh*

[nigellamansell]

When Monteiro started celebrating I wanted to kick his head in.....really, really annoyed me

[Warren Hughes]

When Monteiro started celebrating I wanted to kick his head in.....really, really annoyed me

Don't think too many on these forums would share that point of view.

[thehemogoblin]

When Monteiro started celebrating I wanted to kick his head in.....really, really annoyed me

Don't think too many on these forums would share that point of view.

'Twas one of the most glorious moments ever.

[shinji]

When Monteiro started celebrating I wanted to kick his head in.....really, really annoyed me

Kick his head in?

You poor misled person.

[FullMetalJack]

When Monteiro started celebrating I wanted to kick his head in.....really, really annoyed me

Kick his head in?

You poor misled person.

Monteiro showed up, raced and finished, so fair play to him.

[shinji]

If all the Michelin runners had raced, and crashed with blown tires, we'd still be celebrating that race now.

[DanielPT]

When Monteiro started celebrating I wanted to kick his head in.....really, really annoyed me

Kick his head in?

You poor misled person.

Monteiro showed up, raced and finished, so fair play to him.

Seriously agreed.

[watka]

You are Portuguese so you would say that

[DanielPT]

You are Portuguese so you would say that

Indeed !

Perhaps he should have been less conspicuous on the podium but then, how else could that year Jordan have finished in the podium? It was hardly his fault (or his team) that the Michelin teams didn't run. Michelin botched up that race and that is the end of it. Monteiro just took advantage like everyone at his place.

[FMecha]

Can we please on topic? How about Jaguar?

[Phoenix]

Can we please on topic? How about Jaguar?

Jaguar was never lucky. They got what they deserved...which is not much, really

[golic_2004]

When Monteiro started celebrating I wanted to kick his head in.....really, really annoyed me

Don't think too many on these forums would share that point of view.

Agreed on that. I would have had some sympathy on him after the financial downfall of Jordan.

[1993DonningtonNo1]

Osella, simply for getting points! Possibly Fittipaldi as strictly speaking they were also called Copersucar from 1975 to 1979 before reverting to just Fittipaldi from 1980 to 1982.