F1 rejects who should have been F1 greats

[Benetton]

He's not a reject but how Alexander Wurz didn't pan out is still a mystery to me. What happened to him after 1998?
He performed really well during the three races Gerhard Berger was absent in 1997, scoring a podium in only his third race for Benetton.
Wurz also got a good start to the 1998 season, scoring consistent 4th and 5th place finishes and setting a fastest lap in Argetina. Apparently Ferrari was interested at that time in him.
But come late 1998 onwards Fisichella started to really crash Alex on the timesheets.

Wurz & Benetton massively benefited from superior Bridgestone tyres in early 1998 hence his good results. In fact, some people believe that Benetton cheated somewhat because they switched from Goodyear tyres to Bridgestone extermely late in the day for the start of the 1998 season, leading people to suggest that they passed on the Goodyear data to the Bridgestone people (hence their early season adavntage). However Goodyear got their act together after Monaco & M Schumi (a Goodyear runner) won the following 3 races thereafter. Also, it is a little known fact that Fisco suffered from a major road car accident in early 1998, hence the reason he wasn't quite on the pace until mid season.

I personally thought Wurz was a little overrated, because that podium result at Sliverstone 1997 was largely down to retirements of other front runners (i.e. M Schumi, Hakkien, Frentzen etc). Also I don't think the 1997 Benetton was that bad a car, I think both Alesi & Berger were under performing partly because they were disenchanted with all the rumours surrounding Benetton at the time. Having said that, I do think he did show some promise during 1997 & 1998, but appeared to lose confident whenever his teammate beat him. We saw that again, when he was at Williams in 2007.

Thank you for the insights. Benetton did have a knack of starting the season well but after the midway point, or for them usually Canada and a guaranteed Fisichella podium, they seldomly got any points in '98, '99 (when the car was pretty horrible) and '00.

Fisichella was certainly a driver that was regarded highly in the late 90's, and with reason, few come and put up podiums and 20 pts in their rookie season with the 5th best car in the field (Jordan). Anyone know why Ferrari didn't choose Fisichella to replace Irvine in 2000? If he had a contract with Benetton for 2000 and onwards it couldn't have been that difficult to buy him out, especially with Briatore not being in the picture since Rocco Benetton was team principal at that time. How Renault chose Fisichella over Trulli in 2001 was also a surprise in my opinion. Fisichella's drive in Belgium 2001 was one of the drives of the year.

Wurz was the youngest Le Mans winner (at that time) so how he just lost his confidence was weird. He should and could've put up a better fight against Fisi and stayed on the grid for some 150+ races. Especially since he was regarded as a decent developer.

[ibsey]

Thank you for the insights. Benetton did have a knack of starting the season well but after the midway point, or for them usually Canada and a guaranteed Fisichella podium, they seldomly got any points in '98, '99 (when the car was pretty horrible) and '00.

Fisichella was certainly a driver that was regarded highly in the late 90's, and with reason, few come and put up podiums and 20 pts in their rookie season with the 5th best car in the field (Jordan). Anyone know why Ferrari didn't choose Fisichella to replace Irvine in 2000? If he had a contract with Benetton for 2000 and onwards it couldn't have been that difficult to buy him out, especially with Briatore not being in the picture since Rocco Benetton was team principal at that time. How Renault chose Fisichella over Trulli in 2001 was also a surprise in my opinion. Fisichella's drive in Belgium 2001 was one of the drives of the year.

No problem about the info, in fact its a pleasure.

I think there might have been some rumors that Fisco was actually considered for the Ferrari role in 2000. I know that he was quoted in the Italian press (during the 1999 Italian GP) as being extermely angry that another non Italian (Barrichello) got the Ferrari gig.

To speculate on the reason why he didn't get it; although he was quick enough, I felt Fisco ultimately lacked the maturity to be a No. 2 at the massive goldfish bowl that was Ferrari. Remember the main reason Irvine got the Ferrari no.2 seat was because he was willing to sacrifice his race performances to help Schumi. Yet at the next race, importantly he could act like it didn't happen with no negative effects to his race performance & therefore Irv could be as quick as always.

I don't just mean in situations like Suzuka 1997. There was much more if you like 'behind the scene sacrifing' the Ferrari no.2 had to endure, i.e.;

1. Be a Guninea pig in wet/dry track conditions, i.e. Mika Salo doing that for Irvine in 1999 Nurburgring quali session.

2. Be willing to give up your race car to help the No. 1 driver i.e. San Marino 2002, Barrichello was quicker than Schumi throughout friday & sat morning FP. Schumi, then decides to take over Barrichello car & subsequently gets pole & wins the race in it.

3. If the team only just finished a new update or a new car, guess who got it? i.e. Brazil 2002 when Schumi got to play with the new 2002 Ferrari & Barrichello only got the 2001 Ferrari (apparently 0.8 secs slower). All at Barichello's home race as well.

Besides this, I am sure there are many more examples of hardship that a Ferrari No.2 would have had to endure, all of which resulted in a mindf**k them. If this is the case for a non Italian, can you imagine what it might have been like for an Italian at Ferrari & the subsquent grilling in the Italian press they would have recieved as a result? Apparently Schumi was aware of this, hence the reason he was against the idea of Larini being his teammate in 1996.

Frankly I don't think Fisco was capable of handling all of this back in 1999. Remember Fisco was an 'exictable' Italian in his younger days & was occasionally prone to letting his emotions rule his head (i.e. remember the 'spat' between Irvine & Fisco after they collided in Spain 1998, when Fisco was trying to provoke Irvine). Furthemore I do remember him being regarded as a quick & exciting talent in 1997/1998. However the same people who said that, also reserved judgement over his ultimate talent as they were just as excited at the likes of Modena or Capelli who then turned out to be a disapointment. So its fair to say Ferrari may have still been cautious about Fisco in mid 1999 when Ferrari were looking at possible replacements to Irvine.

It didn't help him that the 1999 Benetton was difficult to drive (because of the Front Torque Transfer System) & Barrichello putting in some very mature performances around this time. For instance the way Barrichello held off Schumi in EXTERME pressure in France 1999 for a few laps was superb. Equally as impressive was when Schumi overtook Barrichello. Rubens maturely realised he the game was up & didn't fight it too hard, instead he immediately looked at minmising the damage...something Schumi needs to relearn after his antics with Petrov from Turkey.

BTW I think Trulli was under contract to Jordan for 2001, so he couldn't have moved to Renault.

[David AGS]

Tora Takagi, two great 13th places in quali (1998) Which was a pretty good performance at that time, considering the Tyrrell was a poor car back then, but struggled in races, and out performed by de la Rosa in 99'.

J.J. Lehto, as discussed. If he has fully fit in 1994 and confident, for sure he would have pushed Schumacher. In the same topic, Karl Wendliger, was very quick and could have done much better if he didnt have that big crash in Monaco. His stats look okay, but would have been much better.

Gianmaria Bruni. Bit of a surprise, but apparently is still upset how he as treated in Minardi compared to his teammate!

A reject, and still a reject Christijian Albers. Had some flashes of speed, but thats about it. I had to add him in, my first f1 signature!!!

[DanielPT]

A reject, and still a reject Christijian Albers. Had some flashes of speed, but thats about it. I had to add him in, my first f1 signature!!!

Meh... Yes, he got the upper hand of Monteiro and, ermmm, Friesacher but that is really not much since Monteiro was probably the slowest Portuguese driver in F1 (incidentally and due to a freak race he is not a reject) and Friesacher is, well, not known for his speed. Anyway, he lost against Doornbos and was later regularly beaten by his rookie team-mate, Sutil, which, as we all know, is overrated.

[Benetton]

Frankly I don't think Fisco was capable of handling all of this back in 1999. Remember Fisco was an 'exictable' Italian in his younger days & was occasionally prone to letting his emotions rule his head (i.e. remember the 'spat' between Irvine & Fisco after they collided in Spain 1998, when Fisco was trying to provoke Irvine). Furthemore I do remember him being regarded as a quick & exciting talent in 1997/1998. However the same people who said that, also reserved judgement over his ultimate talent as they were just as excited at the likes of Modena or Capelli who then turned out to be a disapointment. So its fair to say Ferrari may have still been cautious about Fisco in mid 1999 when Ferrari were looking at possible replacements to Irvine.

Oh yes who could forget that Irvine-Fisichella arguement. Classic. I hope we could see something like that happen today.

BTW I think Trulli was under contract to Jordan for 2001, so he couldn't have moved to Renault.

Yes but I meant for the 2002 season, when Trulli and Fisichella practically swapped teams. It would've been great to see what Fisico would've been capable of in a 2003 Renault. How Alonso didn't get a race seat at Renault for the 2002 season was also quite mindboggling for me even at that time. He was just that good in the Minardi and next season he was just a test driver. Flavio Briatore certainly made some questionable driver moves IMO.

I wonder how JJ Lehto's career would've been like if that pre-season accident in '94 would've not happened. I guess he would've put up some decent results in 1994, perhaps even getting Benetton the manufacturer's championship. He would've atleast stayed along with Benetton for 1995 me thinks. But oh well, now he is being accused of murder.

[Cynon]

Marques in a way also.

Agreed; in Champ Car back in 04, he was mega until he ran out of money, and he didn't compare too badly when compared to Alonso at Minardi back in 2001; he was certainly better than the tosh that Minardi had back in the late 90s...

I don't know if Justin Wilson has already been mentioned, but I would reccomend him, Cristiano da Matta, and (although they aren't rejects), Christian Klien and Nelson Piquet Jr. (Klien especially considering how he was dropped from Red Bull). I still believe that had Klien's earbox not failed while he was running 3rd at Monaco back in 06 (ahead of Culthard) and about to score RBR's first podium, he would have gone up and up from there; think of how a single podium has affected the public's views on Petrov..

Crashtiano da Matta was HUGELY overrated in Champ Car, and anonymous in F1...

...and Marques in Champ Car was okay but not great seeing as the talent level from 2003 onwards was... erm... decreasing rapidly... and he was only marginally impressive when he was running CART when it was competitive...

Wilson would not have been an F1 great, but he's about as good as Coulthard. Klien has Fisichellitis, and Piquet ... well...

[rffp]

Yannick Dalmas was also hit by fate. He was impressive in his first outings for Larrousse back in 87 and was on par with Alliot until he got struck with Legionnaire's disease. That threw him off the pace and out of Larrousse too.

Gabriele Tarquini was another hapless driver. AUTOSPORT back in 1992 stated that while Stefano Modena was one of the most overrated drivers back then, Tarquini was categorized as "merely fast". The Fondmetal car was at moments very fast but not reliable, but he managed to shine in that car.

Not technically rejects, but drivers that deserved a better crack. Nicola Larini was probably another underrated driver. What he did in Canada in 1989 was heroic, but one year in the Ligier electric chair was enough to kill his career. Too bad that when he climbed to the podium was under the worst imaginable circumstances.

And one guy that was IMO the unluckiest driver was Derek Warwick. Always at the wrong place at the wrong time. A potential champion was lost.

[dnhrudi]

Always wondered how Hoshino would have fared. Looked solid in the 2 Japanese Grand Prix he started , got some good results in his occasional F2 experiences with exotic machinery and private Marches. But this guy took names for over 20 years in Japanese single seaters, and was still winning when he retired at what.. 56 years of age? Think he would have gone FI if Kojima had, but don't think he really wanted it. For me far away the best Asian driver to grace F1

[tommykl]

I'm not sure about this one, but Jackie Lewis seemed to be an exciting prospect in the early sixties.

Driving for privateer team at 25, he managed a wonderful 4th in the 1961 Italian GP in his first season, but missed out on more points the next year. He decided to take a sabbatical year in 1963, but neever returned and became a sheep-farmer in Northern Wales.

[Benetton]

Not an reject but Elio de Angelis should've been a world champion if he hadn't died early. On many occasions he could take the fight up to Senna at Lotus IMO. Made his debut at 21 iirc, which at the time was not really usual.

[DanielPT]

I'm not sure about this one, but Jackie Lewis seemed to be an exciting prospect in the early sixties.

Driving for privateer team at 25, he managed a wonderful 4th in the 1961 Italian GP in his first season, but missed out on more points the next year. He decided to take a sabbatical year in 1963, but neever returned and became a sheep-farmer in Northern Wales.

Given those days high kill rate, I guess it should be expected for a few quick drivers to chose and leave racing. I don't remember anyone else right now that had done it though...

[dnhrudi]

I think there are a number on the reject site that stand out, Sospiri, Van de Poele, C. Fabi, Mike Thackwell, Manu Naspetti, Fontana, Think any one of them could have had a decent formula one career if given a good shake, and results aside cannot be compared with the Stuppacher's, Deletraz's, Lavaggi's et all, but champions? Thackwell maybe if the wind was blowing in the right direction a la Damon Hill and Keke Rosberg....

[AdrianSutil]

I know it's been mentioned already but Tom Pryce looked like a fairly decent prospect until his unfortunate death at Kyalami. Always liked Christian Klien when he was at Red Bull, although it wouldve been very doubtful he could be a 'future' champion.

Other notable mentions to: Mike Thackwell and Christian Fittipaldi.

[Jeroen Krautmeir]

I know it's been mentioned already but Tom Pryce looked like a fairly decent prospect until his unfortunate death at Kyalami. Always liked Christian Klien when he was at Red Bull, although it wouldve been very doubtful he could be a 'future' champion.

Other notable mentions to: Mike Thackwell and Christian Fittipaldi.

Agree with you, but IIRC Fittipaldi has a fourth or two, so that means he isn't a reject.

[dnhrudi]

[quote="AdrianSutil"]I know it's been mentioned already but Tom Pryce looked like a fairly decent prospect until his unfortunate death at Kyalami. Always liked Christian Klien when he was at Red Bull, although it wouldve been very doubtful he could be a 'future' champion.

My first F1 race was seeing Tom win at the ROC in 75 and was a huge fan.Tom was very very loyal to the Shadow team and it is difficult to see how his career would have lead, if he would have broken away with Arrows or stayed with Don Nichols, either way I It is difficult to see his career moving toward a championship, he had it in him though.... RIP Tom

[FullMetalJack]

I know it's been mentioned already but Tom Pryce looked like a fairly decent prospect until his unfortunate death at Kyalami. Always liked Christian Klien when he was at Red Bull, although it wouldve been very doubtful he could be a 'future' champion.

Other notable mentions to: Mike Thackwell and Christian Fittipaldi.

Agree with you, but IIRC Fittipaldi has a fourth or two, so that means he isn't a reject.

He scored around 10-15 points, not exactly sure how many.

[tommykl]

Christian Fittipaldi scored 12 points. Three 4th places, a fifth and a sixth.

[ibsey]

Thackwell maybe if the wind was blowing in the right direction a la Damon Hill and Keke Rosberg....

I heard a solid rumor recently that Thackwell was working in a bar / club in Woking, where his colleagues their were blissfully unaware that he was a former F1 driver. That was until, all the Mclaren employee’s (during their Xmas party held at that particular bar) kepting coming up to him to chat. Also around this time, Thackwell apparently known as a bit of a hippie too (smoking weed etc). So, if this is true, fair play to him for being modest about his F1 past & enjoying life.

[dnhrudi]

Thackwell maybe if the wind was blowing in the right direction a la Damon Hill and Keke Rosberg....

I heard a solid rumor recently that Thackwell was working in a bar / club in Woking, where his colleagues their were blissfully unaware that he was a former F1 driver. That was until, all the Mclaren employee’s (during their Xmas party held at that particular bar) kepting coming up to him to chat. Also around this time, Thackwell apparently known as a bit of a hippie too (smoking weed etc). So, if this is true, fair play to him for being modest about his F1 past & enjoying life.

Check out the Mike Thacwell thread on TNF, includes this story and what he's been up to these last years as a surfer dude on the south coast of England, useless fact is that his sister married David Brabham. On the modesty side he says that given a few months testing he could still take on the current guys.....