2011 Canadian Grand Prix Discussion Thread

sswishbone · Post by **sswishbone** » 11 Jun 2011, 17:44

lol Crofty is ripping Chandhok on 5live for some 'monster' comment he mentioned earlier on, but yeah, KK croses but no time for one last lap, fail

Shizuka · Post by **Shizuka** » 11 Jun 2011, 17:45

Glock says they set up the car for rain and max downforce... but will it help them tomorrow?

sswishbone · Post by **sswishbone** » 11 Jun 2011, 17:49

Depends if it rains or not, that is all up in the air at the moment, they always say you should never gamble on a rain setup unless it is wet all weekend long. Vettel's win at Monza 2008 proves why

Collieafc · Post by **Collieafc** » 11 Jun 2011, 17:54

Here Vettel goes again with the 1/2 second lark. Yawn...

Post by **Londoner** » 11 Jun 2011, 17:55

Collieafc wrote:Here Vettel goes again with the 1/2 second lark. Yawn...

BATHPLUG!

Please, rain gods be present tomorrow.

sswishbone · Post by **sswishbone** » 11 Jun 2011, 17:56

I really want the off-throttle blowing banned, that'd really peg these times back and bring the playing field back together, all credit to Vettel, amazing lap, but still

Shizuka · Post by **Shizuka** » 11 Jun 2011, 17:56

East Londoner wrote:Please, rain gods be present tomorrow.

Don't forget his 2009 Chinese Grand Prix. He won that.
And 2008 Italian Grand Prix. That too.

FullMetalJack · Post by **FullMetalJack** » 11 Jun 2011, 17:57

Collieafc wrote:Here Vettel goes again with the 1/2 second lark. Yawn...

Waiting for the inevitable 1 finger celebration.

S951 · Post by **S951** » 11 Jun 2011, 18:01

not that bad both ferrarirs within 2tenths

sswishbone · Post by **sswishbone** » 11 Jun 2011, 18:01

Well Vettel gets to start on pole, but the pace is not massive over those behind, and we know Red Bull drop back in race pace, this could be a good race tomorrow

Shizuka · Post by **Shizuka** » 11 Jun 2011, 18:02

BOTH Ferraris seem decent. We'll see.

Post by **Londoner** » 11 Jun 2011, 18:02

redbulljack14 wrote:
Collieafc wrote:Here Vettel goes again with the 1/2 second lark. Yawn...

Waiting for the inevitable 1 finger celebration.

I feel like doing to Vettel what AndreaModa said he would do in 'The Finger' thread. :evil:

AdrianSutil · Post by **AdrianSutil** » 11 Jun 2011, 18:03

Surprise surprise! Vettel on pole again!! Ferrari are looking really good though. Think mclaren are going to be really disappointed with their positions. Not much between Renault cars!

Collieafc · Post by **Collieafc** » 11 Jun 2011, 18:06

And there it is... BOO!!!!

Post by **mario** » 11 Jun 2011, 19:17

AdrianSutil wrote:Surprise surprise! Vettel on pole again!! Ferrari are looking really good though. Think mclaren are going to be really disappointed with their positions. Not much between Renault cars!

Yes and no - McLaren seem to be running a slightly higher downforce package, as suggested by Whitmarsh (who hinted that McLaren have slightly hedged their bets because of the strong likelihood of mixed weather tomorrow, backed up by McLaren being slower through the speed traps than you'd normally expect).
So, if, as seems quite possible, there is wet weather during the race, then both drivers are likely to make up ground through the race (true, Vettel is likely to do well in the wet too, but his car seems more biased towards a dry race, so that might hurt his performance a little). That said, they are likely to be vulnerable if the conditions are dry, due to their lower top speed, and being further back on the grid, there is an increased risk of an accident early on in the race (and that is much more likely in Canada due to the nature of the opening turns).

It's true that Ferrari are much stronger this weekend, though - possibly in part because we are using the softer tyres for this weekend, and by Ferrari's own admission, their performance tends to drop off on the harder compounds. In particular, it seems that Massa came alive during this session - he's right in the thick of the action for once, and if he carries that through to the race, it could be a big boost to his confidence if he can take a podium finish.
Incidentally, has there been any news yet about D'Ambrosio? It turns out that he'd also gambled on a higher downforce package in case of rain today or, more likely, tomorrow - but has paid for it today. I guess that it is very unlikely he'll race - his practise times are in the 1m20's, and the 107% time was a 1m18.9, so it might be hard for the stewards to justify his inclusion.

GwilymJJames · Post by **GwilymJJames** » 11 Jun 2011, 19:21

D'Ambrosio allowed to race.

What's the point in having the rule if you're not going to enforce a clear failure?

sswishbone · Post by **sswishbone** » 11 Jun 2011, 19:34

Totall and utter nonsense, stewards for reject of the race, this sets a very dangerous precedent, from now on anyoen who fail to qualify will cite something or the other being new and have to be included to avoid a protest being lodged and potentially upheld throwing out the race results. Stupid, he failed to clear the bar, so should be excluded. I am also wondering if this was in exchange for them not protesting the race results due to being the only team not running a blown diffuser?

AdrianSutil · Post by **AdrianSutil** » 11 Jun 2011, 19:36

Mario, that's a fair point about mclaren. But how many times has there been a race where there's a 30, 40 or 50% chance of rain and there hasn't been? I think mclaren took a very big risk in running, let's be honest, a wet-weather set-up. We all know how well Button and Hamilton cope with changeable conditions so I honestly think they shouldve stuck to a dry set-up, or at least, take a little wing off. But I could be wrong.

As for D'Ambrosio being allowed to race, surely the point of having a 107% time is to weed out those that are clearly
not competitive enough! What's the point in having it?!

sswishbone · Post by **sswishbone** » 11 Jun 2011, 19:39

also another point on D'ambrosio being allowed to race due to new chassis, why were HRT not given this concession at Melbourne? This is just another knife in the spine of the sport

Klon · Post by **Klon** » 11 Jun 2011, 19:42

GwilymJJames wrote:What's the point in having the rule [...] ?

Good question. Very good question indeed. :lol:

AndreaModa · Post by **AndreaModa** » 11 Jun 2011, 19:46

GwilymJJames wrote:D'Ambrosio allowed to race.

That is all!

Klon · Post by **Klon** » 11 Jun 2011, 19:50

Come to think of it, Vettel has already 21 poles at the age of 23. I just cannot see how he can be stopped from breaking Schumacher's all-time pole record unless force majeure is involved.

Post by **mario** » 11 Jun 2011, 21:04

AdrianSutil wrote:Mario, that's a fair point about mclaren. But how many times has there been a race where there's a 30, 40 or 50% chance of rain and there hasn't been? I think mclaren took a very big risk in running, let's be honest, a wet-weather set-up. We all know how well Button and Hamilton cope with changeable conditions so I honestly think they shouldve stuck to a dry set-up, or at least, take a little wing off. But I could be wrong.

As for D'Ambrosio being allowed to race, surely the point of having a 107% time is to weed out those that are clearly
not competitive enough! What's the point in having it?!

It's a risk, but in some ways they have to take it - Red Bull have the luxury that their car is still the quickest over a single lap, allowing them to control the pace of the race in the early stages. As it is, McLaren needs to try something different to beat them, plus there is the upside that a slightly higher wing setting may help preserve the tyres over a long stint (by reducing the amount that the car slides through the corners), leading to possibly better pace over a race distance.
Meanwhile, on the point of D'Ambrosio being allowed to race:

sswishbone wrote:also another point on D'ambrosio being allowed to race due to new chassis, why were HRT not given this concession at Melbourne? This is just another knife in the spine of the sport

I think that part of the reason why HRT were not allowed to race was because, by HRT's own admission, the cars were barely ready for qualifying, and the mechanics were so tired out from building the cars up overnight that they were probably not in a fit state to service the cars ahead of the race.

I have to agree, though, that on balance D'Ambrosio should not have been allowed to race. To put it bluntly, D'Ambrosio hasn't been within 107% of the lead driver at any point during this weekend, and in qualifying, D'Ambrosio missed the 107% time by a substantial margin (0.5s) - after all, he was almost a second behind Karthikeyan in 23rd, so even compared to the tail end of the field, he is quite slow. OK, Monaco, where the HRT's failed to set competitive times, I can just about understand , because that was due to mechanical issues - but the excuse for D'Ambrosio (the new chassis) is a weak excuse. He had 19 laps in FP3, for example, to get used to the car - and even before that, he didn't look like he was going to break through 107%.

Ferrim · Post by **Ferrim** » 11 Jun 2011, 22:03

HRT were within 107% of Q1 fastest time during free practice at Monaco. D'Ambrosio hasn't been, not even close.

I had issues with HRT being allowed to race at Monaco, but definitely can't understand why D'Ambrosio has been allowed. Either apply the rule or scrap it.

tristan1117 · Post by **tristan1117** » 11 Jun 2011, 22:33

I'm quite disappointed. I'm currently in Montreal for the race, (sitting right at the first turn), and I've only seen two people with SOOPA AGURI! merchandise on them this entire time! I did buy a Kamui Kobayashi hat, however, so my goal has been accomplished!

Aerospeed · Post by **Aerospeed** » 11 Jun 2011, 23:00

Simple problem solved quickly: Sack d'Ambrosio for Robert Wickens! I can't believe Virgin Racing hasn't thought of that yet

johnston21 · Post by **johnston21** » 12 Jun 2011, 01:03

Must have been the 6 to 8 beers (Bud Light draft), but Q2 seemed to flow right in to Q3 this afternoon. What a buzz, been away from the track for far too long. Enjoy my pics.

By johnston21 at 2011-06-11

Jeroen Krautmeir · Post by **Jeroen Krautmeir** » 12 Jun 2011, 02:23

How come Williams didn't run their fancy rear wing?

ibsey · Post by **ibsey** » 12 Jun 2011, 07:10

Cool pictures Johnston21. Do they by any chance have a memorial marking the spot where a Soooupa Aguri's passed the (then) regining WC Fernado Alonso? :lol:

How cool would that be if they did.

Jeroen Krautmeir wrote:How come Williams didn't run their fancy rear wing?

As I understand, Williams did back to back tests during free practice & the results indicated that the older spec wing would be more effective, considering DRS (more DF & drag = more gain via DRS). Also consider the DF required underbraking & to hop over kerbs, S1 & S2, etc. It is also likely that the possibility of rain, also entered into the equation, so perhaps Williams decided to opt for the higher DF rear wing with all these factors in mind.

Also worth noting that both Mclarens & Heidfeld also opted to add more rear DF than was optimal, in case of tricky conditions. However in the case of Hamilton, it is suggested that this, together with a head wing along the back straight appears to have adversely affected his top speed, by giving him a long 7th gear. Therefore the only possibility I can throw onto Mclaren getting their gear ratio wrong is, when they added on more wing, perhaps they forgot / underestimated the knockon effect it would have had on their gear ratio? TBH I still find this suprising, since for example Nick Heidfeld also has more wing & didn't complaint about a long 7th gear.

Don't know whether Button is suffering from a long 7th gear also? As Mclaren are down on the the speed trap figures this suggest he might be. Although having said that I believe that Mclaren don't have fresh engines for this race (unlike Ferrari), so I don't know whether this is also contributing towards their lack of straight line speed?

Also thinking ahead to the race, Does anyone know how long the option & prime tyres are expected to last for in the race? As I understand it rained overnight at Montreal, so the track might be 'green' therefore assuming it is dry at some point for the race, tyre wear might be different to what we have seen during FP. This could be a massive factor in the race along with how quickly it takes to 'swtich on' the dry tyres. Particularly since we may see serveral SC's during the race, so I reckon some cars (not RBR / Heidfeld or Mclarens) may struggle to regain performance for a lap or two after a SC period with cold tyres.

ibsey · Post by **ibsey** » 12 Jun 2011, 07:49

I just read elsewhere, that it is looking like it is going to rain in Montreal.

Therefore in the case of a wet race, that along with the high DF runners mentioned above, might I suggest that Mercedes could suprise? If my very sketchy memory serves me right, I think they were pretty fast in the final pre-season test at Barcelona in the rain. Although I can't remember if RBR or Ferrari were present that day.

Furthermore I wonder whether Mercedes might be decent at warming their tyres up in the wet (since they had been overheating their dry tyres at the last few races more than other teams). Obviously Mercedes had been working hard during FP on this managing tyre wear in the dry. But surely the car is inheriantly harder on its tyres than the other top teams, which might actually benefit them in heavy rain.

Also Ross Brawn being the cunning strategical genius that his reputation suggests he is & MS (who hasn't been to bad in the last couple of races & is a previous acknowledged wet weather specialastic at one of his most 'successful tracks) might be able to pull off a suprise methinks.

Also looking forward to seeing how Di Resta handles wet weather conditions, as he surely is looking like the real deal at the moment. Furthermore could Lotus finally score their first points in a 'crazy' wet race? Stranger things have happened.

Jack O Melley · Post by **Jack O Melley** » 12 Jun 2011, 08:01

Does anyone know the weather conditions at the moment at Montreal?

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 12 Jun 2011, 08:32

ibsey wrote:Therefore in the case of a wet race, that along with the high DF runners mentioned above, might I suggest that Mercedes could suprise? If my very sketchy memory serves me right, I think they were pretty fast in the final pre-season test at Barcelona in the rain. Although I can't remember if RBR or Ferrari were present that day.

I believe both Ferrari and McLaren were at the final testing day along with Mercedes.

Post by **mario** » 12 Jun 2011, 10:24

Jack O Melley wrote:Does anyone know the weather conditions at the moment at Montreal?

The weather reports seem to indicate that it is raining in Montreal, or at least expected to rain throughout the day - which might be to the advantage of McLaren if they are running more wing (although that is not entirely clear, given that Hamilton and Button have suggested that they are off the pace due to a lack of upgrades and a sub optimal set up).
That said, Vettel might also benefit from this - nobody can use their DRS, and at the start he might well have the advantage of a clear line of sight - though the F150th does have excellent mechanical grip, and Alonso has been making some very good starts in recent races, so Vettel won't have an easy ride on the first lap.

S951 · Post by **S951** » 12 Jun 2011, 10:34

according to people on the autosport thread for this race its raining now and should do through the morning race start should be damp and more rain during the race.

Tim O'Glock has full wet setup so he is going to be my out of the ordinary prediction for a good result

johnston21 · Post by **johnston21** » 12 Jun 2011, 11:28

@ 7:30am just came back in to the hotel (from having a smoke), been raining throughout the early morning (stopped for now), totally cloudy and barely 66fer/16 - 17 cel. Packing the ponchos again today.

sswishbone · Post by **sswishbone** » 12 Jun 2011, 12:30

Great pics from the circuit!

Also news has broken the diffuser hot blowing is definitely going to get cut, and blown diffusers possibly banned altogether in 2012

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/formula ... 739621.stm

Of the teams listed that don't use a hot blown diffuser williams and sauber stick out, Kobayashi or Barrichello to score a shock 2011 grand prix victory sometime at or after silverstone?

whatisdeletrazdoing · Post by **whatisdeletrazdoing** » 12 Jun 2011, 12:36

Jeroen Krautmeir wrote:How come Williams didn't run their fancy rear wing?

Probably because it sucks

S951 · Post by **S951** » 12 Jun 2011, 12:47

sswishbone wrote:Great pics from the circuit!

Also news has broken the diffuser hot blowing is definitely going to get cut, and blown diffusers possibly banned altogether in 2012

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/formula ... 739621.stm

Of the teams listed that don't use a hot blown diffuser williams and sauber stick out, Kobayashi or Barrichello to score a shock 2011 grand prix victory sometime at or after silverstone?

I'll take a punt on Rubinio actually winning in brazil and koba to get in the top 3 in japan (yes both pie in the sky stuff but it makes things fun

) also with the changes TL to slot into the mid field (don't think they have the full on ebd??) MVR and HRT to close the gap

sswishbone · Post by **sswishbone** » 12 Jun 2011, 12:50

I expect Lotus have some form of blown diffuser but theirs has been work in progress for some time, so they could more likely jump to an earlier spec and be on good pace, yeah. Renault and Red Bull will be biggest losers if this goes through

Ferrim · Post by **Ferrim** » 12 Jun 2011, 13:22

http://www.weatheroffice.gc.ca/radar/in ... tml?id=WMN

A thunderstorm is coming from the Southwest. Whether it will hit the track remains to be seen, but at the moment it looks like it will miss Montreal by a few kilometers.

Weather.com gives the highest rain chance (60%) between 2 and 6 pm (race starts at 1 pm).