Grand Prix Rejects

QuickYoda41 wrote:1st: Bruno Lalli: 2 points, other than that he had battles with the real Lotus/Caterham most of the time; when he had the chance (Spa, Interlagos), he blew it

You're really going to nominate him for ROTY? I have a quote for you, my friend.

Ardius wrote:Lets ignore that he also lost 4th gear for most of the race shall we? As always, people judge too harshly knowing so little.
People are talking up Vettel's performance, but for me, losing 4th gear is a fair bit more damaging for your speed than simply short-shifting 2nd and 3rd.

Thats not to say Senna had a stellar race though, his contact with Schumacher was fairly amateurish (though it was a racing incident - perhaps more experience would have avoided it). Bruno has really been very inconsistent for his half-season. Flashes of speed but not put together for a full weekend. It has to be said though that for a driver jumping in mid-season with little to no testing, he has been respectable and done as good as if not better than all previous examples of mid-season switches (Heidfeld, Fisichella, Grosjean, Kobayashi, Alguesuari etc). I'd say his switch hasn't been as impressive as Kobayashi's but its certainly better than Grosjean or Fisichella's.

When Bruno has shown his speed, he has been several tenths faster than Petrov. I still can't decide what to think of him but there is clearly something there.

From a different forum, but pretty much sums up Bruno Senna so far.

I think one of the main problem's is too many people try and compare him to Ayrton, or at least think, "How has Bruno hit that wall? Ayrton wouldn't have done it." Or, "Why is Bruno 8 tenths behind his teammate? Ayrton wouldn't have done it".

I think he's done ok. Nothing special, scored a slightly lucky 9th at Monza. (Remember Rosberg got taken out and both Saubers retired well ahead of Bruno). I think he deserves another go next year. Probably won't happen at Renault/Lotus, maybe STR?

As I said earlier Webber and Hamilton needed to win to escape RoTY, and both of them have done that, which leaves Williams as my nomination to win their second RoTY!

I won't change my votes, despite Massa antics. I enjoyed his post race celebrations at Interlagos, so it is only for that he doesn't deserve my nomination instead of Yours Truly.

Roty - Driver - Trulli - Dominated by Heikki almost at every turn, Complained everytime he didnt do good enough,hes old and has lost his edge. i reckon 2012 will be his last season in F1.
Roty - Team - Virgin - Obivous because there just a joke.

Peter wrote:

QuickYoda41 wrote:1st: Bruno Lalli: 2 points, other than that he had battles with the real Lotus/Caterham most of the time; when he had the chance (Spa, Interlagos), he blew it

You're really going to nominate him for ROTY? I have a quote for you, my friend.

Ardius wrote:Lets ignore that he also lost 4th gear for most of the race shall we? As always, people judge too harshly knowing so little.
People are talking up Vettel's performance, but for me, losing 4th gear is a fair bit more damaging for your speed than simply short-shifting 2nd and 3rd.

Thats not to say Senna had a stellar race though, his contact with Schumacher was fairly amateurish (though it was a racing incident - perhaps more experience would have avoided it). Bruno has really been very inconsistent for his half-season. Flashes of speed but not put together for a full weekend. It has to be said though that for a driver jumping in mid-season with little to no testing, he has been respectable and done as good as if not better than all previous examples of mid-season switches (Heidfeld, Fisichella, Grosjean, Kobayashi, Alguesuari etc). I'd say his switch hasn't been as impressive as Kobayashi's but its certainly better than Grosjean or Fisichella's.

When Bruno has shown his speed, he has been several tenths faster than Petrov. I still can't decide what to think of him but there is clearly something there.

From a different forum, but pretty much sums up Bruno Senna so far.

It's all right to have different opinions, but mine is what you can see below.

Here are my picks:

3rd - Lewis Hamilton: I know he had some wins and podiums, but he also had a lot of investigations and penalties. He was often his own worst enemy on the track and deserves 3rd place on behavior alone.

2nd - Felipe Massa: As someone already mentioned, first Ferrari driver since 1992 not to get a podium finish during a whole season.

1st - Williams: Every single member of the team. This season was a disaster. You know you suck when you're beaten by Red Bull's junior team like this. It's hard to believe they had a pole position last year. Barrichello's career is probably over and Maldonado will need every Venezuelan sponsor he can get to stay in F1. They'll need a completely different approach for next season.

QuickYoda41 wrote:1st: Bruno Lalli: 2 points, other than that he had battles with the real Lotus/Caterham most of the time; when he had the chance (Spa, Interlagos), he blew it

You mean the nephew of Ayrton da Silva, don't you?

Mind you, they are both equally Sennas -is their mother's surname.

Ok, it was just one of the ways I tried avoid calling him Senna, I've had several others already.

Now that the season is over:

3. All three "new" teams
It's a little reasonable to not score points in the first season. It's inexcusable to be at the same pace the second season. In fact, they're even farther away from scoring points! Please enforce the 107% rule on them... now...

2. Williams
Looking more like Tyrrell more than ever. It seems to be the trend of old teams, have a successful ten years, then slowly fade off to a frontrunner, to a frequent podiumer, to a fast but unreliable team, then to a points scorer, all down to a bad team. It didn't help that none of the drivers finished in the Top 8 all year (but Maldonado was in 8th when Hamilton took him out)

1. Felipe Massa
I don't think any other person than him deserves this award. Alonso, who earned 10 podiums positions (and won once out of those 10 podiums) had an impressive year. Massa fails to podium in the (not quite exactly, but close enough) car. Even if everyone was pulling team orders on Massa, he should still be semi-competitive. Not apparently so...

(Dis)honourable mentions:
Mark Webber - was actually 3rd until Vettel's gearbox broke, I'll give Webber credit though for making 3rd in the WDC
(Lotus) Renault GP - Caused confusion over their team name, then self-destructs mid-season, fires Heidfeld for no reason whatsoever,
Pastor Maldonado - was considered for the top three for scoring less points than Bruno da Silva but I'll give him a break for being taken out by Hamilton in Monaco
Lewis Hamilton - Clumsy fool, but still won races
Mercedes GP - Looks a lot like Toyota now
Timo Glock - Not his fault, but somehow lost out to his rookie teammate
Virgin Racing - Gets a second nomination for firing Jérôme d'Ambrosio for no reason at all
Bernie Ecclestone - Gets a nomination for bring F1 to Sky for no reason at all (other than to top off his grandchildren's retirement bill)
Karun Chandhok - Gets a nomination for being rejectful during Germany
The stewards who disqualified Sauber in Australia - Self explanatory

JeremyMcClean wrote:3. All three "new" teams
It's a little reasonable to not score points in the first season. It's inexcusable to be at the same pace the second season. In fact, they're even farther away from scoring points! Please enforce the 107% rule on them... now...

I couldn't disagree more. How the hell are they supposed to score points given that they have much less funding, backing, and manpower than the 9 teams ahead of them, as well as contend with the fact that, out of every 6 starts, 5 of them resulted in a finish this year? Lotus/Caterham have on occasions challenged and beat established cars - remember Kovalainen beating both Saubers at Korea? HRT have done well to even survive given that they have had a start to make any reject team proud, though I will grant you Virgin/Marussia - they have been worthless. Still, that's only one out of 3 teams not matching their potential.

JeremyMcClean wrote:(Lotus) Renault GP - Caused confusion over their team name, then self-destructs mid-season, fires Heidfeld for no reason whatsoever,

They fired Heidfeld partly because they expected more out of him, and because they needed Senna's money.

JeremyMcClean wrote:

The stewards who disqualified Sauber in Australia - Self explanatory

How?! You break the rules, you get DQ'd. I admit it was a shame for Sauber and especially Perez. But rules are rules.

my ROTY.
Rubens Barrichello.
he has really fallen off his game this year and last year for that matter. After that "Veni Vidi Vici" season in 2009 with Jenson and BrawnGP, he couldn't back it up at williams.
All the poor qualifying times, and the fact he has firmly planted himself into the lower mid-field niche at many races this season.
His name is really the only thing that makes me feel like he's the #1 driver at williams. though, multiple times he's finished below his teammate which has swayed me otherwise. In Spain he was a lap behind The Reverend Maldonado, and also in Australia, He and Pastor retired with transmission failure which is funny because just in 2009 him and button took 1 and 2. full circle, right?
He did have a couple alright drives this year, like in Monaco and Canada he finished 9th, his best position all year.
Unfortunately, i see the negatives outweighing the positives.

oh and blah blah he's really old yadda yadda.

3. Felipe Massa - Has become an obvious number 2 driver at Ferrari and was not able to get a podium in the third best car on the grid.

2. Vitantonio Liuzzi - Too erratic to be trusted driving for one of the new teams who need a driver who can give good feedback in developing the car and not crashing. That would not be Liuzzi's job description. And the fact that Daniel Riccardo has been outpacing him as a rookie is icing on the cake. Would be surprised if he was back in F1 next year

1. Williams - They have been slow all of 2011 and only scoring 5 points in the season represents their immense fall from grace. Pastor Maldonaldo has been mediocre to bad with the exception of Monaco and is only there for the PDVSA money while Rubens Barrichello had a fair amount of silly incidents and seemed to lose motivation as the season went on.

JeremyMcClean wrote:Now that the season is over:

3. All three "new" teams
It's a little reasonable to not score points in the first season. It's inexcusable to be at the same pace the second season. In fact, they're even farther away from scoring points! Please enforce the 107% rule on them... now...

Actually, they did enforce the 107% rule this season on HRT in Australia. The other times, they were usually quick enough in Friday practice to clear that mark. IMO, they're better than Minardi in their final years.

JeremyMcClean wrote:It didn't help that none of the drivers finished in the Top 8 all year (but Maldonado was in 8th when Hamilton took him out)

6th, actually... which, against all odds, would have brought the Reverendo one step closer to unrejectification!

It's a good reason to award Hamilton ROTY (even though I didn't think it was exclusively Lewis' fault).

Ferrim wrote:

JeremyMcClean wrote:It didn't help that none of the drivers finished in the Top 8 all year (but Maldonado was in 8th when Hamilton took him out)

6th, actually... which, against all odds, would have brought the Reverendo one step closer to unrejectification!

My respect for Maldonado skyrocketed after that race. Ant it never really fell back down. Good driver, bad consistency. He's just inexperienced, is all.

Peter wrote:

Ferrim wrote:

JeremyMcClean wrote:It didn't help that none of the drivers finished in the Top 8 all year (but Maldonado was in 8th when Hamilton took him out)

6th, actually... which, against all odds, would have brought the Reverendo one step closer to unrejectification!

My respect for Maldonado skyrocketed after that race. Ant it never really fell back down. Good driver, bad consistency. He's just inexperienced, is all.

So did mine... until Belgium. I don't care what the reason is, or who it's against, deliberately swiping across someone's front wing is inexcusable.

Massa, Barichello and williams in no particular order, all frankly awful and a waste of space.

Ferrim wrote:

JeremyMcClean wrote:It didn't help that none of the drivers finished in the Top 8 all year (but Maldonado was in 8th when Hamilton took him out)

6th, actually... which, against all odds, would have brought the Reverendo one step closer to unrejectification!

But once you remember that the Reverend has always been incredibly good around Monaco, it's not actually all that surprising. Why he can't bring that level of performance anywhere else though remains a mystery.

Wizzie wrote:

Ferrim wrote:

JeremyMcClean wrote:It didn't help that none of the drivers finished in the Top 8 all year (but Maldonado was in 8th when Hamilton took him out)

6th, actually... which, against all odds, would have brought the Reverendo one step closer to unrejectification!

But once you remember that the Reverend has always been incredibly good around Monaco, it's not actually all that surprising. Why he can't bring that level of performance anywhere else though remains a mystery.

Yes he was and still is pretty good at Monaco. Expect when he decides to be an idiot. Like that day in Italian F3000, 6 years ago... Or at Spa, this year.

Hey guys, I never post any more but I can't not be involved in the reject of the year thread.

Firstly, I'm going to fly in everyone's faces and try to defend Hamilton. True, he finished behind Button when he wasn't expected to. True, he was not a professional in front of the press and had far too many scrapes and shunts on race day (although I think trouble runs into him because of his reputation just as much as he creates his own problems). However, it's also true that:

- He won as many races as Button did (3). Furthermore, wet weather wins are more spectacular but surely a more important skill is to be fast in the dry? All of Hamilton's wins this year were in the dry.
- Button finishes ahead of Hamilton in 10 out of a possible 19 races. In the races that they both finished, it was 7-7. Close, eh?
- Hamilton out-qualified Button 13 to 6 this year, so his raw pace is still better (even if the long run pace is not so good).

Hamilton's season is only bad in comparison to the very high standards that he has set for himself.


ANYWAY, my top 3 rejects are:

[b]3rd - Felipe Massa[/b] - Just not good enough for Ferrari any more really. A 5th place finish is the highest he could muster this year. Given the bullet-proof reliability of the cars this year, podiums would be hard for him, but I don't remember him putting in a single stand out performance this year (at least last year he could point to Germany), and unlike Alonso, never outperformed the car. Maybe if he was a little faster he wouldn't have had Hamilton crashing into him all the time whilst Lewis was trying to overtake him.

2nd - Timo Glock - Probably an unpopular choice, what has he done wrong? Well this year he was beaten several times by a very average team mate in D'Ambrosio, particularly in qualifying. But more importantly, he doesn't exactly scream "team leader" at you, does he? Everything that Heikki Kovalainen has done right, Timo has done wrong. Glock doesn't seem to have pushed himself at all this season and also who'd have thought it would be the Lotus team rather than the Virgin getting all of the press attention at the lower end of the grid? Glock doesn't seem to be great with the media or the car. A man of his supposed quality should not be having so many set-up issues and should not be qualifying behind the HRTs.

1st - Pastor Maldonado - True, the Williams car was not the ideal car to have your rookie season in this year. Pastor really didn't stand much of a chance of impressing anyone this season. That said, you'd expect some kind of talent to be lurking in there, after all he did win the GP2 championship and had been winning races in that championship for a number of years. Monaco was a rare highlight for him, I'll give him that, but aside from that he was very very rarely anywhere near the top 10 on race day. Quite simply, I'm sure Hulkenberg would have done a better job and Maldonado has just had archetypal pay driver season. His nadir was his down-right dangerous swipe at Lewis Hamilton in the Belgian qualifying.

PS Am I bias towards Hamilton?

Peter wrote:

1993DonningtonNo1 wrote:My reject of the year has to be Williams, even in 2006 they weren't this bad, to think that they will be going into Brazil knowing they started at the tail of the field in the last race yet took pole in Brazil last year!

2nd - Pastor Maldonado, 18 races so far and just 1 point, exactly the same as Venezuela's last F1 driver Johnny Cecotto, yet in Johnny's day, 1 point was awarded for finishing 6th! OK, he was looking good at Monaco until Lewis did a Kimi on Adrian on him, but still he's definitely no Hulkenberg!

3rd - Renault, talk about a fall from grace!

Maldonado manages to constantly equal or beat Rubens. Hulkenberg didn't.

Well, apart from that, but you're always going be under pressure when your predecessor scored Williams' 1st pole since 2005.

As for Renault, soon to be 'Lotus', things can only get better now they got Kimster.

Also, I never thought I'd see the day that Williams would have numbers 18 and 19, if McLaren is the new Williams then Williams is the new Tyrrell!

1993DonningtonNo1 wrote:

Peter wrote:

1993DonningtonNo1 wrote:My reject of the year has to be Williams, even in 2006 they weren't this bad, to think that they will be going into Brazil knowing they started at the tail of the field in the last race yet took pole in Brazil last year!

2nd - Pastor Maldonado, 18 races so far and just 1 point, exactly the same as Venezuela's last F1 driver Johnny Cecotto, yet in Johnny's day, 1 point was awarded for finishing 6th! OK, he was looking good at Monaco until Lewis did a Kimi on Adrian on him, but still he's definitely no Hulkenberg!

3rd - Renault, talk about a fall from grace!

Maldonado manages to constantly equal or beat Rubens. Hulkenberg didn't.

Well, apart from that, but you're always going be under pressure when your predecessor scored Williams' 1st pole since 2005.

As for Renault, soon to be 'Lotus', things can only get better now they got Kimster.

Also, I never thought I'd see the day that Williams would have numbers 18 and 19, if McLaren is the new Williams then Williams is the new Tyrrell!

No, Red Bull is the new Williams. Ferrari is the new Benetton, Mercedes is the new Ferrari, and McLaren is, um, still McLaren? Going by '92/'93, at any rate...

QuickYoda41 wrote:It's all right to have different opinions, but mine is what you can see below.

It is, but Reject of the Year? I'd understand for the race for Spa and Brazil, but the entire year? He hasn't been in the car for half of the season! And scored points, too.

Well, apart from that, but you're always going be under pressure when your predecessor scored Williams' 1st pole since 2005.

As for Renault, soon to be 'Lotus', things can only get better now they got Kimster.

Also, I never thought I'd see the day that Williams would have numbers 18 and 19, if McLaren is the new Williams then Williams is the new Tyrrell![/quote]

No, Red Bull is the new Williams. Ferrari is the new Benetton, Mercedes is the new Ferrari, and McLaren is, um, still McLaren? Going by '92/'93, at any rate...[/quote]

I was simply quoting what people were saying about Williams at the end of their last really rubbish season in 2006.

Order them as you please:
Pastor Maldonado
Lewis Hamilton
Brian Barnhardt
Paul Morris
Kyle Busch
EJ Viso
Bernie Ecclestone/ the BBC
Sebastian Ogier
Jason Plato

jpm wrote:Order them as you please:
Pastor Maldonado
Lewis Hamilton
Brian Barnhardt
Paul Morris
Kyle Busch
EJ Viso
Bernie Ecclestone/ the BBC
Sebastian Ogier
Jason Plato

If you're including Ogier then you HAVE to include Miko Hirvinen for deciding it was a good idea to go to Citroen

3 - TV Directors: Missed some overtakes and good fights. Too much focus on front runners.

2 - Virgin: Last again. Glock had a anonymous season.

1- Williams: The new honda 2007-2008.

Dj_bereta wrote:1- Williams: The new honda 2007-2008.

So hopefully they'll have a Brawn-like year sometime soon? Please? But without the takeover...

ROTY Driver

Jarno Trulli. He should have retired last year. Very sad seeing him trudging at the back of the pack and being regularly overshadowed by his teammate on (presumably) equal equipment.

ROTY Team

Williams. Everything that's been said. Unless they can pull a solid 2012 season I see no future.

ROTY Special Mention

That track marshal at Montreal who fell twice in the middle of the track. Was FIA trying to implement a comical relief routine?

I'm going to give it to Toro Rosso, for literally shafting Alguersuari and Buemi. Neither of them had any idea that the end was coming, and they were not even informed that Toro Rosso had taken Vergne and Ricciardo until after they were announced. Now, with just four seats left on the grid, they have only the slimmest chance of racing in 2012. The addition of Raikkonen, de la Rosa, Vergne, Pic and Grosjean to the grid always meant that five drivers from 2011 would not be racing in 2012, but nobody deserves to be squeezed out in such a way that it stop other teams from contracting them, because heaven forbid that they should be competitive outside Toro Rosso. It's just a case of Toro Rosso wanting to have their cake and eat it, too.

As much as they had improved this year, Toro Rosso are contenders just for sacking their drivers. Alguersuari had been simply brilliant in the second half of the season and Buemi had dreadful luck in the latter stages of the season.

Obviously unless your name's Sebastian Vettel, Red Bull doesn't give a shite about you.

Franz Tost is now a James Allen.

redbulljack14 wrote:Obviously unless your name's Sebastian Vettel, Red Bull doesn't give a shite about you.

Oh, they will - but only if you show the same amount of promise as Vettel did. Toro Rosso evidently feel that Buemi and Alguersuari have had long enough to demonstrate this, but ultimately have not done so, and it is time for them to be let go. This, in itself, is a perfectly reasonable approach to it all. Every team is obligated to take the two drivers that they feel are best-suited to the team. Toro Rosso should be Rejects of the Year for the way they did it. It is one thing to let a driver that you feel is underperforming go. It is another thing entirely to lead them to believe that they will be a part of the team next year, and then pull the carpet out from underneath them and leave them with no options for 2012.

The sack of Buemi and Alguersuari is definitely a surprise, given their consistency and generally solid performances. Of course, they never did a Vettel, but again, bringing two almost complete rookies to F1 (in the same team) instead of using experienced and seasoned talent seems a little strange.

Me! For never being around.

JeremyMcClean wrote:3. All three "new" teams
It's a little reasonable to not score points in the first season. It's inexcusable to be at the same pace the second season. In fact, they're even farther away from scoring points! Please enforce the 107% rule on them... now...

May you check this:

Phoenix wrote:

GwilymJJames wrote:
2nd: Lotus, Virgin, HRT (joint award)

They've been in F1 for (almost) two years. The last team not to have a top-ten finish by the end of their first season was EuroBrun. The new teams really should start thinking about maybe challenging Williams regularly soon.

This is not like 20/30 years ago. Reliability has improved massively ever since, and if any of "our" reject teams managed to qualify for a race and finish it, they could well walk away with a top ten result through pure attrition. Today, only three or four cars at most use to retire from races. This way, it's very difficult for teams to achieve top ten results. I reckon, however, that Lotus might be in the midfield by next year, but MVR and HRT will take a couple more years before if everything goes well for them.

lostpin wrote:The sack of Buemi and Alguersuari is definitely a surprise, given their consistency and generally solid performances. Of course, they never did a Vettel, but again, bringing two almost complete rookies to F1 (in the same team) instead of using experienced and seasoned talent seems a little strange.

If they are telling the truth about their reasons, then I think its quite laudable. New drivers need an opportunity to show their talents, and giving two new guys the seats is interesting. Buemi and Algeursari have not shown top class performances, so give someone else a chance.

Having said that, if that is the team philosophy they could have told their drivers so a few months ago, and given them fair chance to manage their careers.

How about we make a ROTOS (Rejects Of The Off Season) award.

eurobrun wrote:How about we make a ROTOS (Rejects Of The Off Season) award.

second