Beat Tilke at his own game

AndreaModa · Post by **AndreaModa** » 14 Jul 2010, 12:54

I have been there to see the British Superbikes on a couple of occasions, and I agree it is a fantastic circuit, the extensions I put in were simply to lengthen the track without runining some of it's best parts. I think it is too narrow though, even if nothing else is changed to the track, facilities, etc if there's one thing Jonathon Palmer can do is just widen the track a bit so the BTCC, Porsches, etc can actually get two cars alongisde each other without fear of putting two wheels on the grass or hitting a barrier. The circuit has a great character that doens't need to change, but it also doesn't need to look like it's still in the 70s. MSV have done a good job so far with all their circuits, but with the exception of Brands Hatch, there hasn't been that much serious investment in any of the circuits that I've noticed. There's been improvements no doubt, but there's still an awful lot that could be done whilst still retaining the character of these classic circuits.

mediocre · Post by **mediocre** » 14 Jul 2010, 14:41

I don't think Tilke really is bad. The problem is that F1 has become an advertising machine and therefore selects its places wisely - in terms of earning money.
What I mean is that you have great circuits at Spa or Suzuka in the middle of nowhere but at least you have had the proper surface to build a race track on with gradients and all that stuff, which make a race exiting.
Nowadays, F1 goes to Abu Dhabi or Bahrain because there is an investor who is willing to spend the money on it - disregarding the surface/ground. I think this - along with the aerodynamic mishaps - is the main reason for those boring races. After all, you always see some decent racing in lower formulas on some of the Tilke circuits.

coops · Post by **coops** » 14 Jul 2010, 15:38

I prefer this title.

Jordan192 · Post by **Jordan192** » 14 Jul 2010, 16:10

Widening affects the layout in other ways, though, it isn't totally benign - it takes lots of the little tweaks out - it'd straighten deerleap and clay hill, simplify druids to the point of losing it's double-apex challenge. It's far too bumpy for F1, but that makes it great for stuff that's not sprung like a brick.
I like the fact the access roads are tiny, I love pulling into a gravel track through some trees and the next thing you're just by the armco on the outside of lodge. I even like having to wait for them to open the crossing to get back to the car at the end of the day. I find reassurance in how amateur it all feels.

coops · Post by **coops** » 14 Jul 2010, 19:03

Better.

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 15 Jul 2010, 05:57

I said what needed to be said.

coops · Post by **coops** » 15 Jul 2010, 06:55

True.

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 06 Sep 2010, 11:22

Another rubbish street circuit around Penrith designed by me
A slightly better track in Richmond
Back to crappiness around Newcastle

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 06 Sep 2010, 11:45

watka · Post by **watka** » 06 Sep 2010, 12:47

Captain Hammer wrote:

Reminds me of Valencia, without the run-offs.

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 06 Sep 2010, 22:13

watka wrote:Reminds me of Valencia, without the run-offs.

It might be on street maps, but I'm picturing this as being in the countryside like Spa.

Aerospeed · Post by **Aerospeed** » 08 Sep 2010, 01:08

Simply put, a bunchload of crap.

At least it's better than Tilke.

Apologies in advance for the blank space at the top, don't know how that happened.

BTW there is such thing as a Turn 9, it got cut off

Nessafox · Post by **Nessafox** » 08 Sep 2010, 04:51

if your track width is on scale, might give some weird overtaking actions, so, build that track!

Jeroen Krautmeir · Post by **Jeroen Krautmeir** » 23 Feb 2011, 12:48

It's time to revive this thread.

Behold, my rejectful circuit, for the greatest race in the world; The Vanuatu Grand Prix Presented by F1Rejects.com

FullMetalJack · Post by **FullMetalJack** » 23 Feb 2011, 13:07

JeremyMcClean wrote:Apologies in advance for the blank space at the top, don't know how that happened.

Typical Tilke run off areas.

DOSBoot · Post by **DOSBoot** » 23 Feb 2011, 18:05

I don't think I could beat Tilke. He's way to clever for me. However you should look at this thread because some of these ideas are pretty good.

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=3583

legendari25 · Post by **legendari25** » 04 Oct 2012, 22:20

Dear Captain Hammer: I would like to revive this thread by answering to some of your criticisms on criticisms. Whenever I have the time, I will upload my many track designs, and see if I can beat Tilke at his own game.

First of all, I've always been a major critic of Tilke's designs and re-designs of great racing tracks. But a few days ago, arguing this subject with my brother, I admitted that FIA's safety standards and protocols set hard boundaries on track design. Aintree, the Nordschleife Nürburgring or the old overlapping Monza track will never be concieved again under these rules. Sadly, no matter who the designer is, to meet FIA approval, tracks cannot differ much from Tilke's designs.

I think that all the deaths in F1 in the past, specially all the ones in the "modern" era (1970 -) have had much impact on F1 fans and, particularly, racing drivers. Villeneuve's death and, later, Senna's have set before and afters. 1994 was an inflexion point in "modern" F1 history. Saftey became primary concern for the FIA. F1 today is a byword for safety in automotive sport. I doubt any other sport is as safe as F1 has been over the last 10 years. The worst crash I've seen in the last decade was Kubica's in Canada, and he escaped a 12 g impact with only a twisted ankle and consciousness loss for a few minutes.

Do not misunderstand me. I'm not second guessing here. I'm trying to point out differences between the past and the present. Today's monocoque crash tests and construction techniques mean Villeneuve and Rindt would have escaped injured but alive (again, look at Kubica's crash in 2007). Medical assistance, staff and facilties mean that Ronnie Peterson would have probably survived his fractured legs (Schumacher Silverstone 1999). Armcos and tyre walls mean Helmuth Koinigg would have bounced, not die stuck underneath the wall (Hülkenberg Monaco 2010). Fireproof clothing would have protected Schlesser in 1968, and modern fuel tanks would have prevented Stewart from being soaked in fuel. We all know this stuff, but don't consider me Captain Obvious yet. The list could grow a lot larger. But the point is not to list every single advance in safety. No, my point is that today we have overcome most of the technical stuff that meant risk to drivers. And I doubt we can increase safety in the same proportion as the 1990-2000 period has seen.

Therefore, having overcome all the things that killed brave men in the past, I see no point for many standards of today. Why is there still a Bus Stop in Spa? You might think arriving La Source at 330 kph (205 mph) is very dangerous, but remember today's Bus Stop (2012) is a double hairpin (it's not even a normal chicane anymore), and cars arrive the first hairpin after the long Blanchimont run at nearly 320 kph (200 mph). Grandstand spectators are protected from possible debris with modern catch fencing (correct me if I'm wrong) 5 or 6 meters tall. So there is no true reason for having the Bus Stop today. 1988 yes, 2012 not really. Do not forget Monza's 370 kph (235 mph) record right before the first chicane, where everyone comes to a near halt. So don't tell me the fairy-tale of danger at the entrance of La Source. Grosjean being at the wheel is a valid argument, though. xD

Senna was killed by a combination of basilar skull fracture (today prevented with HANS) and brain damage from a helmet puncture (prevented by Carbon Fibre - Kevlar helmets - Massa 2009) from a flying wheel + suspension part (today prevented by reinforced CF+K wheel links that prevent them from flying around in case of accident). I do not know of any other cause of death (not discussing track departure here) of Ayrton Senna. Hard accidents occured before in Tamburello and none ended up in death. Therefore, today, the Traguardo-Tamburello complex is pointless. Not the Villeneuve one, since the entrance speed at La Tosa would be insane and there is no room for runoff areas there.

I found this image a few days ago and it made me laugh really hard because it reflects reality quite well.

Here's what I see wrong with his tracks:

- Extreme track width: The racing line has little to nothing to do with the actual track design. Seriously, is this a joke? http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/3739/0001fripic1.jpg

- Overly complicated corner complexes: Cars have to form a processional line without any chance of overtaking on the inside or outside, since, despite enromous track width, there is no outside or inside. First lap procession usually ends up in penalties since overtaking attempts end up outside the track limits.
Examples:
+ New section (Turns 4-13) - Bahrain 2010
+ Mercedes Arena - Nürburgring
+ New infield section - Silverstone
+ Turns 10-13 - Singapore
+ Turns 17-22 - Singapore
+ The whole final sector - Valencia
+ Turns 7-18 - Korea
+ Turns 1-2 double-hairpin - Malaysia
+ Turns 1-4 Curly corner - Shanghai
+ Turns 11-13 Curly corner 2 - Shanghai
+ Turns 2-10 - Austin

- "Encouragement to overtake" features, that usually are long straights that end up in hairpins. That added up with the ban on blocking moves and the availability of KERS and DRS make it certain the car behind will overtake. But overtaking is not a synonim of entertainment. Dijon had no overtaking features, it was just a sucession of fast sweeping bends, and the final laps of the 1979 French GP were, I think we can all agree, the best 3 consecutive laps in F1 ever. Even despite China has the most amount of overtakes in the calendar, according to a multi-axis chart I saw.

- Huge run-offs: I understand asphalt run-offs are the popular choice now, since they allow drivers to further control their cars outside the track, rejoin the race and slow the car before hitting the wall. Yes, it saved many from early retirement. I'm 100% on safety, but preventing cars from stalling if they depart the track, that is in my opinion, moronic and childish. That is not safety. Do you want to undo a mistake? Play GRID, play Codemasters' F1. I'm OK with them, but not 100 meters-wide. Look what he did to Pouhon in Spa. Not only was it magnificent to behold, but seriously challenging if you steered too late or too fast. Now cars run out of space and keep going like nothing happened, like Kimi and Hamilton did in 2007. What the hell?! What's the track design for, then? Just put 20 walls and let cars take the trajectory they want.

- Hockenheimring redesign: This is by far the most insulting work of Tilke. You might think the forest section wasn't challenging, and you have the right to think so. I, myself, think NASCAR and Indy are moronic because they just tackle 2-4 bends and never brake (not talking about road courses, just ovals here). But still, you must have serious balls to drive close to a wall at 300-380 kph (185-240 mph). And the forest section of the Hockenheimring was just as "dull" as the whole Monza circuit. Do you think Monza is boring/crap? Even if you believe so, you'd think twice before making such remark. The fun of the Hockenheimring was to setup the car with such balance that made it possible to tackle the slow stadium section while still being the fastest through the forest section. And the track wasn't even half the width of Daytona, Indianapolis or even Talladega. Cars rose to 340-350 kph (220 mph) for very, very long runs, very close to each other, but not in an infinite oval fashion, as in the US, but headed towards a full halt for the chicanes. Accidents were heavy, racing was incredible and concentration needed was tip-top. And the most annoying thing was that the old track was demolished to "plant" some stupid grass and the whole center of the new track was cut down to the ground and they concreted all over. I understand you found it boring, but the new layout is crap and you must understand how insulting it is to destroy the old track and not leave it for revival races or private use. After all, the old oval in Monza or the old Österreichring can be, in greater or lesser way, still used.

Now I'll reply to you on things that would improve the Tilkedromes, and as you said, I have found no access to track regulations speaking about bankings, entry speeds, and so on to justify my statements as possible today. But as I said before too, I think safety standards are way beyond track regulations.

Revert the last two changes in Catalunya, use the 2001 layout. Those final bends in use today make me suicidal.

The Singapore track is far too complex and stressing. A bit more air is needed, longer straights, a few less corners and a bit roundier. A bit less heavy braking. Here's my proposal on Singapore. Note the reprofile on the first corners, less eager to throw cars out of the track. The faster ex turn 5, the longer straight, the lack of ex turns 7, 8 and 9, and the lack of the pointless turn 10 chicane. Turns 20-22 have been removed in favor of a tunnel under the highway and a bus stop before the final bend because otherwise there's not enough run-off space for a high entry speed. The final 2 apexes have been rounded up. I do not like angled corners.

The Malaysian track is not as compex as Singapore, but it isn't easy on the drivers and the cars. The first corner is stupid and far too slow for modern cars. I understand the super-tight hairpin in Monaco but not in a giant brand new circuit built from the ground up. I've reprofiled the first section and the two angled corners behind the final bend, "KLIA Corner", to make them slower-in faster-out than before. I also changed the second to last corner because it's way too hard to tackle and there's no overtaking place at all.

I had no time to further redesign Tilke's tracks. I only like his A1 track in Austria, but I still think the older was better.

To tackle on your challenge, I give you a further few redesigns on other circuits. You give me your oppinion. I will be uploading more designs in the next few days.

Australia: changed the Waite chicane to a fast sweeping left-right bend. There is enough space for run-off to allow cars to tackle flat out this corner. The rest is original design.

Argentina: used a mixture of the old 15 circuit and the latter 9 circuit for maximum challenge. Revived the old Ascari corner now inexistant except for the first 20 meters. There is enough room for run-off area and being wide enough, can provide show as good as Eau Rouge.

Australia: extended the circuit to a greater length than the old 1985-1993 layout. Added a slight kink to change lane on the boulevard after turn 6, but it won't affect speed. There is enough space to make it very wide to prevent accidents and corner cutting. The long fast back run will be extremely exciting with the fast bend.

More to come soon. I hope I'm up to your challenge, despite arriving 3 years late.

Dario Fernandez

RonDenisDeletraz · Post by **RonDenisDeletraz** » 05 Oct 2012, 09:34

I only just noticed the unoriginal go-kart track near Sepang

girry · Post by **girry** » 05 Oct 2012, 10:13

long text

- Singapore isn't Tilke's track, neither is the new infield section of Silverstone
- I really dislike the hairpin-hairpin-hairpin complexes such as 4-6 of Korea, Mercedes Arena and Bahrain extra loop ....

... but personally I find those faster multicorner complexes great. 7-18 of Korea I would consider awesome, as well as 2-10 of Austin, last sector of Valencia and those Buddh track fast sweeping corners... I mean, Tilke designed those corners for drivers, not overtaking? I think they're rather brilliant.
- blame FIA for the extremely overused asphalt runoffs, not Tilke
- old Hocke was great, but Tilke was not allowed to use the forest part of the track...so his options were limited to a mickey mouse track we have to suffer for now, can't blame him for that either.
- those Sepang modifications don't work imo.

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 05 Oct 2012, 10:27

giraurd wrote:- old Hocke was great, but Tilke was not allowed to use the forest part of the track...so his options were limited to a mickey mouse track we have to suffer for now, can't blame him for that either.

Not quite. From memory, the old Hockenheim was considered unsafe on the basis that the far reaches of the track were miles away from the paddock area, and as an extension of that the majority of the marshal posts and medical facilities, and Tilke was brought in to try and solve the problem. Thing is the Hockenheim track is located in a National Park (Or a Provincial Park at the least) and the ruling was Tilke could do whatever the hell he wanted as long as ever tree that was torn up in the process was replanted within the park area. Therefore in order to fulfill that part of the deal, Tilke had to rip up most of the old circuit to do the necessary modifications.

roblo97 · Post by **roblo97** » 06 Oct 2012, 21:50

legendari25 wrote:Dear Captain Hammer: I would like to revive this thread by answering to some of your criticisms on criticisms. Whenever I have the time, I will upload my many track designs, and see if I can beat Tilke at his own game.

First of all, I've always been a major critic of Tilke's designs and re-designs of great racing tracks. But a few days ago, arguing this subject with my brother, I admitted that FIA's safety standards and protocols set hard boundaries on track design. Aintree, the Nordschleife Nürburgring or the old overlapping Monza track will never be concieved again under these rules. Sadly, no matter who the designer is, to meet FIA approval, tracks cannot differ much from Tilke's designs.

I think that all the deaths in F1 in the past, specially all the ones in the "modern" era (1970 -) have had much impact on F1 fans and, particularly, racing drivers. Villeneuve's death and, later, Senna's have set before and afters. 1994 was an inflexion point in "modern" F1 history. Saftey became primary concern for the FIA. F1 today is a byword for safety in automotive sport. I doubt any other sport is as safe as F1 has been over the last 10 years. The worst crash I've seen in the last decade was Kubica's in Canada, and he escaped a 12 g impact with only a twisted ankle and consciousness loss for a few minutes.

Do not misunderstand me. I'm not second guessing here. I'm trying to point out differences between the past and the present. Today's monocoque crash tests and construction techniques mean Villeneuve and Rindt would have escaped injured but alive (again, look at Kubica's crash in 2007). Medical assistance, staff and facilties mean that Ronnie Peterson would have probably survived his fractured legs (Schumacher Silverstone 1999). Armcos and tyre walls mean Helmuth Koinigg would have bounced, not die stuck underneath the wall (Hülkenberg Monaco 2010). Fireproof clothing would have protected Schlesser in 1968, and modern fuel tanks would have prevented Stewart from being soaked in fuel. We all know this stuff, but don't consider me Captain Obvious yet. The list could grow a lot larger. But the point is not to list every single advance in safety. No, my point is that today we have overcome most of the technical stuff that meant risk to drivers. And I doubt we can increase safety in the same proportion as the 1990-2000 period has seen.

Therefore, having overcome all the things that killed brave men in the past, I see no point for many standards of today. Why is there still a Bus Stop in Spa? You might think arriving La Source at 330 kph (205 mph) is very dangerous, but remember today's Bus Stop (2012) is a double hairpin (it's not even a normal chicane anymore), and cars arrive the first hairpin after the long Blanchimont run at nearly 320 kph (200 mph). Grandstand spectators are protected from possible debris with modern catch fencing (correct me if I'm wrong) 5 or 6 meters tall. So there is no true reason for having the Bus Stop today. 1988 yes, 2012 not really. Do not forget Monza's 370 kph (235 mph) record right before the first chicane, where everyone comes to a near halt. So don't tell me the fairy-tale of danger at the entrance of La Source. Grosjean being at the wheel is a valid argument, though. xD

Senna was killed by a combination of basilar skull fracture (today prevented with HANS) and brain damage from a helmet puncture (prevented by Carbon Fibre - Kevlar helmets - Massa 2009) from a flying wheel + suspension part (today prevented by reinforced CF+K wheel links that prevent them from flying around in case of accident). I do not know of any other cause of death (not discussing track departure here) of Ayrton Senna. Hard accidents occured before in Tamburello and none ended up in death. Therefore, today, the Traguardo-Tamburello complex is pointless. Not the Villeneuve one, since the entrance speed at La Tosa would be insane and there is no room for runoff areas there.

I found this image a few days ago and it made me laugh really hard because it reflects reality quite well.

Here's what I see wrong with his tracks:

- Extreme track width: The racing line has little to nothing to do with the actual track design. Seriously, is this a joke? http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/3739/0001fripic1.jpg

- Overly complicated corner complexes: Cars have to form a processional line without any chance of overtaking on the inside or outside, since, despite enromous track width, there is no outside or inside. First lap procession usually ends up in penalties since overtaking attempts end up outside the track limits.
Examples:
+ New section (Turns 4-13) - Bahrain 2010
+ Mercedes Arena - Nürburgring
+ New infield section - Silverstone
+ Turns 10-13 - Singapore
+ Turns 17-22 - Singapore
+ The whole final sector - Valencia
+ Turns 7-18 - Korea
+ Turns 1-2 double-hairpin - Malaysia
+ Turns 1-4 Curly corner - Shanghai
+ Turns 11-13 Curly corner 2 - Shanghai
+ Turns 2-10 - Austin

- "Encouragement to overtake" features, that usually are long straights that end up in hairpins. That added up with the ban on blocking moves and the availability of KERS and DRS make it certain the car behind will overtake. But overtaking is not a synonim of entertainment. Dijon had no overtaking features, it was just a sucession of fast sweeping bends, and the final laps of the 1979 French GP were, I think we can all agree, the best 3 consecutive laps in F1 ever. Even despite China has the most amount of overtakes in the calendar, according to a multi-axis chart I saw.

- Huge run-offs: I understand asphalt run-offs are the popular choice now, since they allow drivers to further control their cars outside the track, rejoin the race and slow the car before hitting the wall. Yes, it saved many from early retirement. I'm 100% on safety, but preventing cars from stalling if they depart the track, that is in my opinion, moronic and childish. That is not safety. Do you want to undo a mistake? Play GRID, play Codemasters' F1. I'm OK with them, but not 100 meters-wide. Look what he did to Pouhon in Spa. Not only was it magnificent to behold, but seriously challenging if you steered too late or too fast. Now cars run out of space and keep going like nothing happened, like Kimi and Hamilton did in 2007. What the hell?! What's the track design for, then? Just put 20 walls and let cars take the trajectory they want.

- Hockenheimring redesign: This is by far the most insulting work of Tilke. You might think the forest section wasn't challenging, and you have the right to think so. I, myself, think NASCAR and Indy are moronic because they just tackle 2-4 bends and never brake (not talking about road courses, just ovals here). But still, you must have serious balls to drive close to a wall at 300-380 kph (185-240 mph). And the forest section of the Hockenheimring was just as "dull" as the whole Monza circuit. Do you think Monza is boring/crap? Even if you believe so, you'd think twice before making such remark. The fun of the Hockenheimring was to setup the car with such balance that made it possible to tackle the slow stadium section while still being the fastest through the forest section. And the track wasn't even half the width of Daytona, Indianapolis or even Talladega. Cars rose to 340-350 kph (220 mph) for very, very long runs, very close to each other, but not in an infinite oval fashion, as in the US, but headed towards a full halt for the chicanes. Accidents were heavy, racing was incredible and concentration needed was tip-top. And the most annoying thing was that the old track was demolished to "plant" some stupid grass and the whole center of the new track was cut down to the ground and they concreted all over. I understand you found it boring, but the new layout is crap and you must understand how insulting it is to destroy the old track and not leave it for revival races or private use. After all, the old oval in Monza or the old Österreichring can be, in greater or lesser way, still used.

Now I'll reply to you on things that would improve the Tilkedromes, and as you said, I have found no access to track regulations speaking about bankings, entry speeds, and so on to justify my statements as possible today. But as I said before too, I think safety standards are way beyond track regulations.

Revert the last two changes in Catalunya, use the 2001 layout. Those final bends in use today make me suicidal.

The Singapore track is far too complex and stressing. A bit more air is needed, longer straights, a few less corners and a bit roundier. A bit less heavy braking. Here's my proposal on Singapore. Note the reprofile on the first corners, less eager to throw cars out of the track. The faster ex turn 5, the longer straight, the lack of ex turns 7, 8 and 9, and the lack of the pointless turn 10 chicane. Turns 20-22 have been removed in favor of a tunnel under the highway and a bus stop before the final bend because otherwise there's not enough run-off space for a high entry speed. The final 2 apexes have been rounded up. I do not like angled corners.

The Malaysian track is not as compex as Singapore, but it isn't easy on the drivers and the cars. The first corner is stupid and far too slow for modern cars. I understand the super-tight hairpin in Monaco but not in a giant brand new circuit built from the ground up. I've reprofiled the first section and the two angled corners behind the final bend, "KLIA Corner", to make them slower-in faster-out than before. I also changed the second to last corner because it's way too hard to tackle and there's no overtaking place at all.

I had no time to further redesign Tilke's tracks. I only like his A1 track in Austria, but I still think the older was better.

To tackle on your challenge, I give you a further few redesigns on other circuits. You give me your oppinion. I will be uploading more designs in the next few days.

Australia: changed the Waite chicane to a fast sweeping left-right bend. There is enough space for run-off to allow cars to tackle flat out this corner. The rest is original design.

Argentina: used a mixture of the old 15 circuit and the latter 9 circuit for maximum challenge. Revived the old Ascari corner now inexistant except for the first 20 meters. There is enough room for run-off area and being wide enough, can provide show as good as Eau Rouge.

Australia: extended the circuit to a greater length than the old 1985-1993 layout. Added a slight kink to change lane on the boulevard after turn 6, but it won't affect speed. There is enough space to make it very wide to prevent accidents and corner cutting. The long fast back run will be extremely exciting with the fast bend.

More to come soon. I hope I'm up to your challenge, despite arriving 3 years late.

Dario Fernandez

To damn right

legendari25 · Post by **legendari25** » 06 Oct 2012, 22:23

I am really sorry about my mistake. I didn't know that Singapore and the Arena sections weren't Tilke's inventions. As far as I knew, he had the monopoly for track design. But as I said, tracks will be rubbish no matter who designs them, Tilke, KBR or Populous. I have learnt that it's not everything his fault, and that's why I blamed FIA early in my post.

Still, his original proposal was even worse than the current track, dear god.

Wizzie wrote:Not quite. From memory, the old Hockenheim was considered unsafe on the basis that the far reaches of the track were miles away from the paddock area, and as an extension of that the majority of the marshal posts and medical facilities, and Tilke was brought in to try and solve the problem. Thing is the Hockenheim track is located in a National Park (Or a Provincial Park at the least) and the ruling was Tilke could do whatever the hell he wanted as long as ever tree that was torn up in the process was replanted within the park area. Therefore in order to fulfill that part of the deal, Tilke had to rip up most of the old circuit to do the necessary modifications.

I really don't know, I was 10 when the track was redesigned and I didn't watch F1 back then. But there was no need to fully cut down the whole middle section of that forest to make room for the new track.

giraurd wrote:- those Sepang modifications don't work imo.

Maybe not, but have you tried it on a simulator? It's an extremely difficult track, and the most complex corners are the first and second-to-last. I realised a hairpin for turn 1 was a good idea, but a haripin for turn 2 wasn't, that's why i bypassed that loop. And the second-to-last corner is a corner which you arrive at very high speeds and you have to stop the car while cornering through a tightening bend. Remember 2001, when sudden downpour hit the track and everyone slipped on slick tyres. I'm not saying it should be easy, but any outbalance on the car could become a dangerous spin. And it's not really a corner for the brave, it's just difficult for no reason.

Here's a redesign of an ancient track: Aintree

The main idea was to leave the hippodrome intact. Therefore, the original kink would have needed run-off areas invading the grass racetrack. That's why I added a bus stop before the kink, and then rounded up the corners to make them a bit faster out. I also added a chicane before the fast right hand bend at the lower right corner of the picture to avoid adding extra run-off area at a place there's no room without reprofiling the river. With the purpose of preserving the hippodrome the old pit lane location (far right straight) was also moved to where the red path is, at the uppermost straight.

Estoril

Bypassed the late Turn 1 through the pit exit (should be widened, of course) and the ugly chicane that features one the things that annoys me the most: widening road. Again, I didn't use the old bit, since there are new buildings in the area that prevent run-off areas from being properly placed. The following bends should be tightened up to comply with my "ban" on extreme-width tracks.

Catalunya

Reverted to the 2001 design. A further change could be to make the last turn even faster, as it was in the early 90's.

Zeltweg

This track, according to wikipedia, wasn't popular because of the track surface, which was very abrasive. But it was just 4 straights in an L shape (Image). Not very good for modern-day cars. The new design features a much, much longer straight (the window showing it's length didn't appear in the saving-image process) of 2.55 km (1.59 mi) and fast sweeping bends. The start-finish line would be in the middle of the image, in the lowermost straight. It would be a counter-clockwise circuit. Google earth has no better quality for the image, so I'll provide a contemporary aereal look from bing maps. Note that my turn 1 (based on an old picture) now features a hangar. https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/299452_3699829329672_148359916_n.jpg

That's all for today. More to come soon. I would like to know what does Captain Hammer think...

Dario Fernandez

PS: I don't like my Aintree redesign, but I wanted to start with something. Please point out any good ideas to revive this brilliant, fast circuit.

solarcold · Post by **solarcold** » 07 Oct 2012, 08:49

I've found a program that allows you to create rFactor tracks, so I've decided to give it a try.
As a proud Kola Peninsula inhabitant, I've decided to create a fictional Kola Peninsula Grand Prix Circuit.
Here's the project. I'll start implementing it right about now.

girry · Post by **girry** » 07 Oct 2012, 09:15

I remember reading Tilke interview and he said he wanted to keep the forest sections but there was absolutely no way for him to keep it safe enough without cutting any trees...

And yes, i have played Malaysia on a simulator ... in fact I like the 1st corner complex since it dips in the middle of it and is pretty hard to get right. And the corner before stadium straights, it has proven difficult and usually seen drivers choosing different lines in its current shape, so I don't really see a need for change.

---

one circuit which could do with a redesign is current Kyalami; maybe try redrawing it..?

WaffleCat · Post by **WaffleCat** » 07 Oct 2012, 10:55

solarcold wrote:I've found a program that allows you to create rFactor tracks, so I've decided to give it a try.
As a proud Kola Peninsula inhabitant, I've decided to create a fictional Kola Peninsula Grand Prix Circuit.
Here's the project. I'll start implementing it right about now.

Nice track,only problems for me is that Turn 8 should not be so sharp and same goes for turn 14.

solarcold · Post by **solarcold** » 07 Oct 2012, 12:51

Okay.. Here goes the revised edition. Already converted it to a proper rFactor track. feels pretty good for me

legendari25 · Post by **legendari25** » 07 Oct 2012, 20:34

giraurd wrote:one circuit which could do with a redesign is current Kyalami; maybe try redrawing it..?

Staring at the Kyalami I realised something strange. Googled it, and it seems many have discovered it too:

I also found this out on the internet: the old 1988-1991 layout.

It's actually quite good; in my opinion, better that the current layout.

Too bad the original circuit now has houses where the pits once stood, but I think something like this could work out:

I switched the pitlane back to where it was in the 1988 layout (you can see the old building in the picture, actually). The new building is not parallel to the racetrack, like the Paul Ricard. Since the last corner is now slower-in, faster-out, the first corner is now taken at a slighty higher speed, like in the old 70's days. Following turns remain untouched. The hairpin is changed to a Tosa-like corner followed by a twisty straight (like Imola), uphill, towards a Piratella-like corner. There's no room to head for Acqua Minerale: a chicane leads towards a fast twisty run that ends up in a 180° much wider than the current hairpin, just like in 1988. The following straight has been reprofiled to allow a higher entrance speed to the now-final bend, which has been widened quite a lot by demolishing the current pit building, where a curved grandstand should be. The final sector is just like today's first sector.

What do you think?

solarcold wrote:I've found a program that allows you to create rFactor tracks, so I've decided to give it a try.
As a proud Kola Peninsula inhabitant, I've decided to create a fictional Kola Peninsula Grand Prix Circuit.
Here's the project. I'll start implementing it right about now.

If I may:

I would make the "Life-Andrea Moda-Forti Corse" corners look more alike the final bends in the Buenos Aires track (Tobogan-Hairpin).

For corners 1-5, check out Grand Valley from Gran Turismo 4/5. If you have never played Gran Turismo, you should search onboard footage from GT5. The first corners are truly amazing.

You would accomodate the rest in accordance to the reprofile. I assure these changes will make it perfect.

I'll add my take on Imola

Used the new pitlane although I don't like it. The Traguardo chicane is avialable as an alternative, though the F1 track doesn't feature it; instead it tackles the old Tamburello. Checking older images, I saw the Variante Alta has been changed to be much slower than before. I changed it to be more like the old Chicane at Monaco, barely touching the brakes, kissing the apexes really sweet and fast. Speeds through Tamburello should be around 320 kph. Just before Villeneuve I would stipulate around 335. Arrival speed to Riavazza 1 should be 305.

Cheers

Dario Fernandez

roblo97 · Post by **roblo97** » 07 Oct 2012, 21:38

Dear Bernie please replace Herman tilke with legendari25 yours Rob lomas :lol:

solarcold · Post by **solarcold** » 08 Oct 2012, 05:54

I would make the "Life-Andrea Moda-Forti Corse" corners look more alike the final bends in the Buenos Aires track (Tobogan-Hairpin).

I've already done this yesterday

Thanks

the track looks better now, yet some glitches with the height layout there I have to fix.

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 08 Oct 2012, 08:50

legendari25 wrote:Dear Captain Hammer: I would like to revive this thread by answering to some of your criticisms on criticisms. Whenever I have the time, I will upload my many track designs, and see if I can beat Tilke at his own game.

I hate to say it - I'm not really a fan of anything you're produced so far. Most of what you have uploaded, and you explanations of what you have changed and why only really amount to "this is better because it is different". For example, you barely made any changes at all to Imola; 99% of what you used was the existing circuit, and then you touted it as being revolutionary. And when you did alter circuits drastically - particularly with Aintree and Kyalami - I felt your changes were unnecessary and jarring.

Benetton · Post by **Benetton** » 08 Oct 2012, 09:35

http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=5697552 Sepang

http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=5697563 Zandvoort

roblo97 · Post by **roblo97** » 08 Oct 2012, 12:01

my ideas

long beach
http://gmap-pedometer.com/?r=5694284
the track starts on east shoreline drive before continuing on the indycar circuit before going arround the aquarium of the pacific before going arround the califonia state university beforre heading onto w seaside way, then it heads towards bay street before heading towards e seaside way, then it heads up linden avenue before heading on to e 4th street before heading onto alamitos avenue whilst building up speed to east shorline drive

albert park
http://gmap-pedometer.com/?r=5675175
the 3 main things i've made to this track is...
1. after turn 4 on to clarendon st before a right on to cobden street and then right again back onto lakeside drive
2.the chicane on lakeside drive is bypassed
3. the track continues along lakeside drive before a hairpin on to village green drive

monaco
http://gmap-pedometer.com/?r=5679017
the track goes straight on after casino square before going on to ave de la costa bfore going onto rue grimaldi, it then loops around onto av prince pierre and then bd rainier III and then onto bd princess charlotte before heading onto av de la madone and then rejoining the circuit , it then goes round the tunnle before arriving at a new, faster chicane, it then sticks to the current track until rascasse where it keeps following the pier and then turns round and goes onto a new section of track before going around the final corner

monza
http://gmap-pedometer.com/?r=5679594
here i have remouved the 1st chicane and put it close to curve grande and then it will be normal uintil after the varante ascari where the cars shall go through an opening esse bend and a 90 degree right hander on to the old banking, after a while the track shall go off the old oval and onto a new fast section before the parabolica which has a more open exit leading into a kink that cant be taken flat onto the pit straight

donnington
http://gmap-pedometer.com/?r=5695730
it starts on the back straight before eventually ending in a haipin in roughly the same place as the one from the 1930's before going through a series of uphill corners before entering a complex like the one hermann tilke was planning to use before rejoining the old track at the main straight at the moment and it stays on the current track until just before the old hairpin where it shall turn left through a turn 8 style corner before a sharp right hand hairpin leading into a sharp, downhill right hand kink leading into starkeys bridge which will now be taken in 5/6th gear and it shall say with the current track until after coppice where the track shall go through a fast left, right chcane before the pit straight

imola
http://gmap-pedometer.com/?r=5695705
the first thing that i have done is redesign tamburello but make the apex slightly tighter so that there is more run off area, track then remains unchanged untill acque minerale wher i have made the 2nd part slightly faster and the variante alta is now a much faster chicane than before so the driver shall be kissing the kerbs at speed and i have also tightened rivazza and used the new pit straight

sepang
http://gmap-pedometer.com/?r=5696295
here i have got rid of the second hairpin and changed klia in to a single corner with 38 degrees if banking to pile even more pain on to the drivers necks :twisted:

and changed the penultimate corner into something much faster than current

buenos aries
http://gmap-pedometer.com/?r=5696305
here i have used the first part of the #6 circuit up to curvon be fore it joins the #15 circuit until the chicana de ascari which i have bypassed and then it stays in the #15 layout

adelade
http://gmap-pedometer.com/?r=5696329
it sticks to the original bu whereas the original turns down rundle rd, mine turns left onto north tce then onto frome rd before going arround the royal zoo before twisting arround onto hackney road before rejoing the old track at the old brabham straight before headding on to a new straight section just before the hairpin and then it continues arround the old gp course untill the finish line

hungaroring
http://gmap-pedometer.com/?r=5696368
the pit straight is now about 300/400m longer before it heads into a tight harpin, after that a series of esse's leads the cars up to turn 2 on the current track. at turn 5 there will be a left hand kink in to a new section outside the waterpark , then they come up to the bypassed chicane at 6/7 before sticking to the current circuit until the the start finish line

montjuic park
http://gmap-pedometer.com/?r=5653255
the track starts on the old straight from the 1930's and continues arround the old course until they get to this roundabout where the cars shall go down carrer de pierre de coubitan untill the turn onto the passeig del migdia before they head onto the carretera de montjuic before a left hand hairpin takes them onto avinguada de miramar before turning back onto the old circuit at passeig de santa madrona

cemont ferand
http://gmap-pedometer.com/?r=5661340
this circuit is an exact copy of the proposal by mr louis rosier in 1956, it also uses quite a lot of the old circuit especially the bit in the mountans and the straight( which slices off the current circuit ) has a few kinks in it but is still fast enough to scare the living bathplug out of the drivers :lol:

interlagos
http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=5698144
this is basically the original circuit but with 4 adjustments
1.chicane before curva 3
2.feradura is tighnened slightley
3.sargento moved forwards
4. chicane between juncao and subida dos boxes

maybe more tracks for twomorrow

Post by **tommykl** » 08 Oct 2012, 17:13

All of you who are talking about skipping the first corners at Sepang, keep in mind that that second hairpin is there because the drop in elevation is pretty large at that point of the circuit, and it would take a lot of earth-moving for those changes to be effective...

girry · Post by **girry** » 08 Oct 2012, 17:36

I must agree with Captain Hammer here, I don't really see the big picture in some of your designs Dario...to me it looks like you just select a corner and change it to make the corner itself better, but they don't really fit the other track - good example of it is the Imola edit. Like, removing Tamburello chicane - what's the point, apart from creating one fairly simple (albeit slightly scary) flatout corner ... then the long flatout section ends in that Villeneuve chicane of all corners?

Same is the case with that Kyalami design; sure, that 'extension' would be fairly decent and fun section of corners, but does not address the biggest problem of the track - overtaking being pretty much as hard as it would be in Hungaroring without the main straight.

legendari25 · Post by **legendari25** » 08 Oct 2012, 18:54

I tried to be realistic, I took in consideration lack of space in many tracks, tree cutting, earth-moving, budget, etc. For a track to be good it doesn't need to be radical or to be completely different to the original layout.

tommykl wrote:All of you who are talking about skipping the first corners at Sepang, keep in mind that that second hairpin is there because the drop in elevation is pretty large at that point of the circuit, and it would take a lot of earth-moving for those changes to be effective...

True, thank you, I wasn't paying any attention to that. I'll come up with something better.

You're forgetting that the lack of overtaking today is caused by two major factors:

Brakes: Today's C.F. compounds can withstand enormous temperatures without fading. That is translated in a necessity by the driver to constantly use the maximum braking for each corner. If he doesn't, then the driver behind will, and will get past. Let's bring Frengh GP 1979 again to this discussion, look at Villeneuve torturing his tyres under braking to get past Arnoux, who's doing an 85-90% braking, coping with tyre and brake wear from an 80 lap race.

Sporting regulation: Today you cannot defend your position: you can only move once per sector (or straight, I'm not 100% sure) and you have to leave the width of a car. If you run wide, you're penalised. If you make contact, you're penalised. And if the car behind has KERS and DRS available, forget any chances of defending your position. Yet the old races weren't decided with the stewards and officials. I saw Mark Webber pull an exciting overtake (not arguing if it was legal or not: just exciting) on the outside at Singapore: he was penalised.
As I said before, not all blame must fall on Tilke, the FIA has much to blame. It was their fault that cars were overly nervous and dangerous back in 1994, and it's their fault to stand in the opposite extreme today with overly stupid racing, in which he have to amuse ourselves watching crashes, press conference accusations, legal battles, spionage, pitlane efficency and helmet LEDs. This is my view on F1.

If you want to see exciting F1 these two main subjects have to be adressed, alongside enormous tracks and run-offs that really make F1 races seem like being held in a gigantic LEGO parking lot.

Please quote whenever I said Imola was revolutionary. I said it would be faster. And if you listen to what every single F1 driver has to say, or journalist or team principal, etc, Senna was killed, as I said, by flying debris and lack of HANS. Today those things exist, and you can find footage of Berger having a massive accident years before and still walking out of it with only minor burns. Those cars were nervous, dangerous, unstable, overly powerful. Today many things have been tamed, like reliabilty and handling. (not saying it's easy, just that the car will take the path the driver wants) And if something goes wrong, do not tell me that today's walls and monocoques aren't 10 times safer than in 1994. So what is the point for having Traguardo, Bus Stop, Variante del Rettifilo, Villeneuve (Imola), the 2004 + 2007 Catalunya modifications, and so on? In fact many tracks are getting rid of many chicanes, like Imola did about two years ago, Kyalami with that pointless chicane before the final bend, etc. And if you fear corners, then why are you sitting inside a racing car anyway? If you fear crashing, then buy a playseat, a steering wheel and a good simulator.

You say we have to bear in mind tracks have to be realistic, that's what I've tried. I tried to provide as much real spectacle touching the least and without falling into your Tilkeish compulsion of decomissioning everything and building infield loops and bypasses. Maybe you can stop growing sick of criticisms and provide us with some good ideas for racing tracks? Maybe you can give me some real, detailed feedback on my tracks, not just a "you've used 99% of existing tracks". I replied to your challenge, I made these graphics for you: then visualize my tracks in you mind and think what could be done to improve them and what's wrong with every single bend I thought for you and your thread. And the Aintree track, I know it sucks:

That's all for today. More to come soon. I would like to know what does Captain Hammer think...

Dario Fernandez

PS: I don't like my Aintree redesign, but I wanted to start with something. Please point out any good ideas to revive this brilliant, fast circuit.

Then please, point out good ideas. Even if you'd say "tear down the hippodrome, design a proper first corner" it would be more pleasing than just "unnecessary and jarring". (besides, Aintree wasn't radically altered)

giraurd wrote:I must agree with Captain Hammer here, I don't really see the big picture in some of your designs Dario...to me it looks like you just select a corner and change it to make the corner itself better, but they don't really fit the other track - good example of it is the Imola edit. Like, removing Tamburello chicane - what's the point, apart from creating one fairly simple (albeit slightly scary) flatout corner ... then the long flatout section ends in that Villeneuve chicane of all corners?

Same is the case with that Kyalami design; sure, that 'extension' would be fairly decent and fun section of corners, but does not address the biggest problem of the track - overtaking being pretty much as hard as it would be in Hungaroring without the main straight.

First: do you think corners actually got better in my attempts or not?
Second: how would you address hard overtaking?
Third: I ended the fast run at Villeneuve for safety reasons. Had I ended it, as I wanted to, in La Tosa, then many would have rushed to say "nonono, it's far too dangerous"
Fourth: what's wrong with having the old Tamburello, and then, why do you need to have the Traguardo chicane? Safety? Speed? Overtaking? Remember that before Traguardo is a kink, whose apex drivers kiss, and therefore make overtaking at Traguardo virtually impossible. Instead, a fast exit from Tamburello would mean a slipstream run and attack chance at the entrance to Villeneuve, or Tosa, wherever the fast run ends.

I beg you all to give me more and complete feedback, I want to make my tracks better, these are my first attempts. That's why I submitted them to all you guys. Maybe when I finish with my exams, next week, I can try new takes on the tracks you didn't like. Just point out major faults and improvements.

Peace

Dario Fernandez

PS: Thank you Rob Lomas

girry · Post by **girry** » 08 Oct 2012, 19:48

1) yeah, especially on that Kyalami
2) Fast section, hard braking is the usual formula. Cars and especially the aero breaking the air behind obviously are the main reasons why 'proper' overtaking is still so rare...but we're not here to fix the cars right? One of the challenges of track drawing (note - for Tilke too!) is the problem of overtaking in F1 .. if it didn't exist, we could just draw a Brands Hatch II and be done with it, but that's not fun :p
3-4) Having a flatout kink anywhere on F1 tracks is not really my favorite thing, I mean, Tamburello doesn't have a sufficiently big safety area (sigh) for the risks of something breaking, and the challenge in such a corner isn't great either. Villeneuve chicane, then, is prettymuch the last corner I would let the cars enter 330kph.

admit that Imola is a challenging place to design; personally I would attempt to keep the 'primary overtaking spot' in Traguardo, or then somehow try to reline the track approaching Tosa to make it a possibility. But both have their drawbacks.

---

criticism is meant to be constructive, might be bad at choosing my words..

legendari25 · Post by **legendari25** » 08 Oct 2012, 21:02

Oh I wasn't offended. I justed wanted a more detailed approach, I didn't know what you meant with your post. It's true what you say, we're arguing about track design, not car design. I thought of an interesting approach on Imola that I will post later this week (since I have two tests and no time right now) which I think you will like. All I'll say is that Rob Lomas had a few similar ideas, now that I see his post.

I'm glad that you liked Kyalami, and I'll try to address the overtaking problem. Do you like the idea of the Tosa-Piratella-Acqua Minerale on the Kyalami? I'd like to further improve that.

solarcold wrote:
I would make the "Life-Andrea Moda-Forti Corse" corners look more alike the final bends in the Buenos Aires track (Tobogan-Hairpin).

I've already done this yesterday Thanks the track looks better now, yet some glitches with the height layout there I have to fix.

Great, I want to give it a try, so whenever it's ready, upload it for us. Have you tried the first corners of Grand Valley? I really think they would be great on you track.

By the way, guys, maybe we can propose one corner (two, maximum) each and try to assemble them together in some affordable and realistcal way. I'm really looking forward to that.

Cheers

Dario Fernandez

roblo97 · Post by **roblo97** » 13 Oct 2012, 17:34

DonTirri wrote:Some time ago there was a topic in the boards about "Your ideal circuit" or something, and I drew up this in my boredom, using only parts from existing circuits:

i still think this track could be made better withe the following

maggots - beckets - chaple, silverstone
hereug - slotemaker, zandvoort
pilgrims drop straight - hawthorn - westfield - sheen's - stirlings - clearways, brands hatch
signes, paul ricard
knockhill park (apart from final hairpin)

roblo97 · Post by **roblo97** » 14 Oct 2012, 16:10

hi got some more tracks here
macau
http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=5705179
features new loop in our lady of fatima's parish which very fast and replaces the melco hairpin which is to tight for f1

oulton park
http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=5705457
extended with a new loop into the first corner and a massive extension around the shell oils hairpin but the new one will be banked as well and knickerbrook will be a 200mph corner so it might even be britains answer to spa :lol:

more to come soon

roblo97 · Post by **roblo97** » 15 Oct 2012, 17:14

le mans
http://www.gmap-pedometer.com?r=5706927
includes the porsche curves and a new link section

road america
http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=5706897
new section featuring 3 new 4/5th gear corners

brands hatch
http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=5706596
i've added a new loop around druids and a new loop around the back of the circuit with some fast corners and a chicane leading onto the pit straight