The Sportscar and Endurance Thread

[RonDenisDeletraz]

Wow that is rejectful.

It is - I'll admit to reading that story with a wry smile when I first saw it...

On another note, another former Reject has decided to join Endurance Racing - Antonio Pizzonia has announced that he will be driving for Conquest Racing in the 6 Hours ALMS race at Laguna Seca. http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/99455

Is that the same Conquest Racing that used to run an IndyCar team, I thought they no longer existed.

[IdeFan]

It's about time this thread got a bump, the Le Mans test is this weekend and it will be our first opportunity to see if they Toyota has the pace to fight the Audis.



Pescarolo have finally got their brand new car, the 03, on track this week. For the uninformed, the Pescarolo 03 uses the monocoque and a few other components (front crash structure and I think front suspension) from last year's Aston Martin AMR-One.

The use of the Aston's front crash structure (which means they don't have to crash test the car) necessitates the high nose and gives it a passing resemblance to the AMR-One, but aside from the monocoque itself every single bodywork panel is new.

The AMR-One reportedly had decent mechanical grip but terrible aero and an awful engine, so hopefully with new aero and a new engine (although the Judd V8 is not the best) Henri's boys will get much more out of this car then Prodrive ever did.

[DanielPT]

It's about time this thread got a bump, the Le Mans test is this weekend and it will be our first opportunity to see if they Toyota has the pace to fight the Audis.

Pescarolo have finally got their brand new car, the 03, on track this week. For the uninformed, the Pescarolo 03 uses the monocoque and a few other components (front crash structure and I think front suspension) from last year's Aston Martin AMR-One.

The use of the Aston's front crash structure (which means they don't have to crash test the car) necessitates the high nose and gives it a passing resemblance to the AMR-One, but aside from the monocoque itself every single bodywork panel is new.

The AMR-One reportedly had decent mechanical grip but terrible aero and an awful engine, so hopefully with new aero and a new engine (although the Judd V8 is not the best) Henri's boys will get much more out of this car then Prodrive ever did.

The AMR-One? Haven't the Pescarolo boys heard that it is easier to make an unreliable fast car reliable again than a reliable slow car fast?

Not a good starting point, IMO...

[IdeFan]

The Aston's unreliability lay in its engine, which Pescarolo has replaced with the 3.4L Judd V8, an engine which has been racing at le mans in one form or another (first as an LMP2, now LMP1) since 2008, so at least in that department there shouldn't be any reliability issues.

You have to remember that despite being something of a big name at Le Mans, Pescarolo have been in financial trouble for some time (they didn't race at all in 2010 due to lack of funds), and the car they were racing last year has its roots in the Courage C60 from 2000(!). Clearly they needed to build a new car but the process of crash testing and homologating a new chassis is very expensive, so they're using the AMR-One's tub as a starting point.

We shouldn't expect much from them this year, but Pescarolo embody the privateer spirit of all motorsport and I hope it gives them a strong base for the future.

[DanielPT]

The Aston's unreliability lay in its engine, which Pescarolo has replaced with the 3.4L Judd V8, an engine which has been racing at le mans in one form or another (first as an LMP2, now LMP1) since 2008, so at least in that department there shouldn't be any reliability issues.

You have to remember that despite being something of a big name at Le Mans, Pescarolo have been in financial trouble for some time (they didn't race at all in 2010 due to lack of funds), and the car they were racing last year has its roots in the Courage C60 from 2000(!). Clearly they needed to build a new car but the process of crash testing and homologating a new chassis is very expensive, so they're using the AMR-One's tub as a starting point.

We shouldn't expect much from them this year, but Pescarolo embody the privateer spirit of all motorsport and I hope it gives them a strong base for the future.

That is what I am afraid of. I was always a fan of the Pescarolo effort and it pains me to see their current plight. Sure the previous car was pretty much outdated, but it was a good starting point, something that I doubt the AMR-One is, like I said. I mean, the whole fault for its slowness cannot be placed solely in the engine, right? I fear the car is fundamentally flawed. But I will wait and see...

[IdeFan]

Well as I said in my post, the problems were rooted in the engine and the aero, both of which have been changed completely, insiders say that mechanically speaking there was nothing wrong with the aston.

[mario]

The Aston's unreliability lay in its engine, which Pescarolo has replaced with the 3.4L Judd V8, an engine which has been racing at le mans in one form or another (first as an LMP2, now LMP1) since 2008, so at least in that department there shouldn't be any reliability issues.

You have to remember that despite being something of a big name at Le Mans, Pescarolo have been in financial trouble for some time (they didn't race at all in 2010 due to lack of funds), and the car they were racing last year has its roots in the Courage C60 from 2000(!). Clearly they needed to build a new car but the process of crash testing and homologating a new chassis is very expensive, so they're using the AMR-One's tub as a starting point.

We shouldn't expect much from them this year, but Pescarolo embody the privateer spirit of all motorsport and I hope it gives them a strong base for the future.

That is what I am afraid of. I was always a fan of the Pescarolo effort and it pains me to see their current plight. Sure the previous car was pretty much outdated, but it was a good starting point, something that I doubt the AMR-One is, like I said. I mean, the whole fault for its slowness cannot be placed solely in the engine, right? I fear the car is fundamentally flawed. But I will wait and see...

There are some additional funds coming in from Dome given that Pescarolo are running the second S102.5 that Dome have entered for Le Mans but Pescarolo are still not exactly flush with cash at the moment, hence the need to economise through utilising an already homologated chassis. As I understand the situation, the AMR-One's main problem was, to a certain extent, that it was unfinished - Prodrive did not start work until very late in the design cycle, so the outer bodywork and aero appendages were never really developed properly (not to mention a lack of engine testing), although the suspension layout, being relatively conventional in design and layout, reportedly worked reasonably well.
I guess that the other problem is that Pescarolo wouldn't have had many alternative options available to them anyway - there aren't that many independent manufacturers that could supply a P1 chassis (because a manufacturer backed chassis would almost certainly be out of the question on cost grounds) at relatively low cost, especially since Lola Cars is now, tragically, in administration.

[dr-baker]

The Aston's unreliability lay in its engine, which Pescarolo has replaced with the 3.4L Judd V8, an engine which has been racing at le mans in one form or another (first as an LMP2, now LMP1) since 2008, so at least in that department there shouldn't be any reliability issues.

You have to remember that despite being something of a big name at Le Mans, Pescarolo have been in financial trouble for some time (they didn't race at all in 2010 due to lack of funds), and the car they were racing last year has its roots in the Courage C60 from 2000(!). Clearly they needed to build a new car but the process of crash testing and homologating a new chassis is very expensive, so they're using the AMR-One's tub as a starting point.

We shouldn't expect much from them this year, but Pescarolo embody the privateer spirit of all motorsport and I hope it gives them a strong base for the future.

That is what I am afraid of. I was always a fan of the Pescarolo effort and it pains me to see their current plight. Sure the previous car was pretty much outdated, but it was a good starting point, something that I doubt the AMR-One is, like I said. I mean, the whole fault for its slowness cannot be placed solely in the engine, right? I fear the car is fundamentally flawed. But I will wait and see...

There are some additional funds coming in from Dome given that Pescarolo are running the second S102.5 that Dome have entered for Le Mans but Pescarolo are still not exactly flush with cash at the moment, hence the need to economise through utilising an already homologated chassis. As I understand the situation, the AMR-One's main problem was, to a certain extent, that it was unfinished - Prodrive did not start work until very late in the design cycle, so the outer bodywork and aero appendages were never really developed properly (not to mention a lack of engine testing), although the suspension layout, being relatively conventional in design and layout, reportedly worked reasonably well.
I guess that the other problem is that Pescarolo wouldn't have had many alternative options available to them anyway - there aren't that many independent manufacturers that could supply a P1 chassis (because a manufacturer backed chassis would almost certainly be out of the question on cost grounds) at relatively low cost, especially since Lola Cars is now, tragically, in administration.

Isn't the DeltaWing using the AMR-One chassis/monocoque as well? It would be interesting to see how the two compare if I am right in remembering that...

[mario]

Isn't the DeltaWing using the AMR-One chassis/monocoque as well? It would be interesting to see how the two compare if I am right in remembering that...

That is correct, and for much the same reason as Pescarolo; because the AMR-One chassis has already undergone homologation, it enables the team to significantly reduce the development time - and therefore cost - of the finished car. Ironically, it looks like Aston Martin is going to have more success through other teams using their chassis than their own works team...

[EDIT] A little bit more news on the Pescarolo 03 from mulsannecorner.com - it looks like the team have been able to complete their first shakedown session at Mangy Cours without any problems, and with reasonably strong lap times (reportedly about half a second a lap behind the Dome S102.5, which is not bad at all considering that the Pescarolo 03 has only just been launched).

[IdeFan]

Its the test day this weekend and Toyota have surprised everyone by painting their cars blue:

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150876733587912&set=a.10150870641887912.420732.291763622911&type=1&ref=nf

I know its a facebook link which some people won't like, but I've yet to see a "normal" link. I am disappointed, I thought the livery it had at Spa looked really nice, now it looks a little too much like a Peugeot, lets hope it doesn't have a Peugeot-like performance (really fast but still loses to Audi).

The other news is that Marc Gene has found a seat at Audi, replacing the still injured Timo Bernhard. Really gutted for Timo because obviously Le Mans is the biggest race of his year and to miss it though injury (suffered in testing of all things) must really hurt, still nice to see more ex-Minardi drivers in the race (even though he isn't a reject.)

We are hearing this now because all drivers (and reserve drivers) must drive at the test before they are allowed to drive in the race itself, so even if Timo managed to regain fitness before the race he still wouldn't be allowed to race.

[RealRacingRoots]

Its the test day this weekend and Toyota have surprised everyone by painting their cars blue:

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150876733587912&set=a.10150870641887912.420732.291763622911&type=1&ref=nf

It needs to be ALL red.

[mario]

The results of the Le Mans test session are now in, and it looks like business as usual at the front. Although Toyota are reasonably close to the pace, and a lot closer to the R18's than the other petrol powered teams, Buemi's best time of 3m27.20s turned out to be nearly 1.3s behind the best time set by McNish in the hybrid R18 (and about 0.7s behind the conventional R18), although Toyota were at least able to beat the second conventional R18 driven by Bonanomi, Jarvis and Gene.
Further back, the Deltawing concept car is setting OK times, although they are currently not performing quite as well as they had hoped - their original target was to consistently set times in the 3m40 - 3m45s range, which would be close to the tail end of the P1 class and near the top of the P2 class, but at the moment their best lap is 3m47.98s. For a new concept, to be lapping at that sort of pace is still fairly respectable, but right now it remains to be seen whether the car can deliver on its promised performance.

Speaking of promised performance, the ACO has announced the team that has been allocated the spot in the EXP class for 2013 - it is an entry known as "Green GT", a hydrogen fuel cell powered car designed by Welter Racing that has a very - well, shall we say distinctive - appearance.

The only way that I can describe it is that it looks like the lovechild of a Caparo T1 and a hammerhead shark...
http://www.racecar-engineering.com/news ... s-in-2013/

[DanielPT]

Speaking of promised performance, the ACO has announced the team that has been allocated the spot in the EXP class for 2013 - it is an entry known as "Green GT", a hydrogen fuel cell powered car designed by Welter Racing that has a very - well, shall we say distinctive - appearance.
http://www.racecar-engineering.com/wp-c ... geetee.jpg
The only way that I can describe it is that it looks like the lovechild of a Caparo T1 and a hammerhead shark...
http://www.racecar-engineering.com/news ... s-in-2013/

That monstrosity should be put down for his on sake. Had the designers been drinking?

Anyway, I am finding it hard to like this years concepts in Le Mans...

[dr-baker]

I am bizarrely a fan of the DeltaWing (although I would have preferred it to have been as narrow as it was originally intended as a single-seater). But that monstrosity that mario posted... just wow. That is uugggggglllllllyyyyyyy.

[Klon]

I find this thing endearing in its rejectfulness. Although I wonder whether that has any aerodynamic efficiency at all.

[IdeFan]

The design is by Welter Racing, who's cars have always been ..distinctive:



They were also quite slow even before they added the improbably large air intake, so I don't have a whole lot of confidence in their design.

As for the rest of testing:

Audi vs Toyota - 1.3s per lap might sound like a lot in F1 terms, but one has to remember that La Sarthe is about 2.5 times longer than an ordinary circuit, so you're looking at a gap more like 0.5s at a normal track. This is the sort of gap that can be overcome over a 24 hour race, to take the recent Peugeot vs Audi rivalry:

2007 - Peugeot qualify 0.55s faster than the fastest Audi and 1.9s faster than the winning Audi.
2008 - Peugeot qualify a massive 5.3s faster than the fastest Audi (which also won).
2010 - Peugeot qualify 2.2s faster than the fastest Audi, yes Peugeot lost through reliability but the Audis were able to run fast enough and consistent enough to force the Peugeot's to push beyond the limit of the engine (they had 3 identical engine failure from 4 cars.)

Assuming the 1.3s gap doesn't increase between now and the race itself, Toyota are "within range" for an upset, unfortunately for them if you were to bet on one team running the perfect race, you'd bet on Audi, especially with four cars.

Deltawing - A bit disappointing but not disgraceful, they are right in the mix with the slower Orecas and HPDs, and well clear of the GT field, perhaps more surprising was the apparent pace of the Morgan/OAK Pescarolo, they've been midfielders at best in LMP2 for the last few years, their results usually come from reliability rather than pace, so this is very encouraging for them.

[mario]

The design is by Welter Racing, who's cars have always been ..distinctive:



They were also quite slow even before they added the improbably large air intake, so I don't have a whole lot of confidence in their design.

At least that particular LMP car, even if it didn't compete as planned, featured some features that were both innovative and practical (Racecar Engineering mentioned that some of the concepts that Welter Racing came up with on that car later made their way onto the R15+ and R18...) - this, by comparison, looks like it was made to grab attention first, second and third with actual performance a long way down the list.

Back to this years Le Mans race - you are right about the fact that the point that the time difference as things stand is not that large by recent standards, and Audi's success in the past has been as much about maximising their performance consistently over the 24 hours in a much more effective manner than Peugeot could, through optimising their pit stop strategies and their set up decisions (Peugeot's pace tended to fluctuate slightly more over the course of the race because of their decision to go for a lower downforce package, which meant that they slipped back slightly overnight due to problems with keeping their tyres up to temperature during the cooler overnight phase of the race).
The other aspect that could play into Toyota's hands is the fact that the petrol powered cars are equipped with larger fuel tanks (10 litres extra) - the extra fuel capacity, and with it the possibility that Toyota could manage to run longer stints than Audi, is one thing that Baretzky has said he fears. In fact, Baretzky has gone as far as saying that he feels that the changes the ACO made this year to cut the performance of the diesel powered cars, plus the additional fuel tank capacity, means that he now thinks that Toyota, who have a development budget that can match Audi's current program, will have a performance advantage in the race, so it is possible that Toyota might be hoping to run a similar strategy to Peugeot in 2011 and try to beat Audi by running longer than them in each stint, making up for their slight lack of pace on track by not making as many pit stops.

[ADx_Wales]

What the hell is this thread not doing at the top of the page, I guess the F1 engines in 2014 thread should have snuck in here Bump anyways.

Audi to romp it, depending on which species of R18 wins, Deisel or Deisel-Electric, just like two trains leaving London for Scotland at the same time.
Toyota just need to finish on sunday but qualifying high
Deltawing needs to simply finish aswell, regardless of finishing position, and YES it GOES around CORNERS, scraping into the bottom half of the LMP2 category.

[IdeFan]

So Audi-Ultra on pole, no surprises there, but the Toyota was impressively fast, lapping nearly 1s under last year's pole time, we might just have a race on our hands here!

[F1000X]

So Audi-Ultra on pole, no surprises there, but the Toyota was impressively fast, lapping nearly 1s under last year's pole time, we might just have a race on our hands here!

Oh yeah, it's going to be terribly close 4-way AUDI fight, for who leads the inevitable 1-2.

[TomWazzleshaw]

So Audi-Ultra on pole, no surprises there, but the Toyota was impressively fast, lapping nearly 1s under last year's pole time, we might just have a race on our hands here!

Umm... guys, the Audi e-Tron's on pole, not the Ultra

[DanielPT]

So Audi-Ultra on pole, no surprises there, but the Toyota was impressively fast, lapping nearly 1s under last year's pole time, we might just have a race on our hands here!

Umm... guys, the Audi e-Tron's on pole, not the Ultra

So the best Toyota was in the middle of the Audi's. And was also the one with a full team of F1 Rejects. I like it!

[Shadaza]

43. GTE A Simonsen/Nygaard/Poulsen Aston Martin 3m58.725s
44. GTE A Ehret/Montecalvo/Jeannette Luxury Ferrari 3m58.800s
45. P2 Rostan/Ihara/Deletraz Gulf Lola-Nissan 3m58.895s
46. GTE A Ried/Roda/Ruberti Felbermayr-Proton Porsche 3m59.181s
47. GTE A Bornhauser/Canal/Lamy Larbre Corvette 3m59.192s



And what is Deletraz doing? Qualifying among the GT Amateur cars that's what!

[dr-baker]

A bit more context:

Code: Select all

14.  P2     Martin/Charouz/Graves               ADR ORECA-Nissan             3m38.181s
29.  CDNT   Franchitti/Krumm/Motoyama           Highcroft Delta Wing Nissan  3m42.612s
33.  P2     Haezebrouck/Thirion/Rosier          Extreme Limite Norma-Judd    3m48.025s
45.  P2     Rostan/Ihara/Deletraz               Gulf Lola-Nissan             3m58.895s

The fastest LMP2, the DeltaWing, the penultimate LMP2, and then Deletraz...

[RonDenisDeletraz]

A bit more context:

Code: Select all

14.  P2     Martin/Charouz/Graves               ADR ORECA-Nissan             3m38.181s
29.  CDNT   Franchitti/Krumm/Motoyama           Highcroft Delta Wing Nissan  3m42.612s
33.  P2     Haezebrouck/Thirion/Rosier          Extreme Limite Norma-Judd    3m48.025s
45.  P2     Rostan/Ihara/Deletraz               Gulf Lola-Nissan             3m58.895s

The fastest LMP2, the DeltaWing, the penultimate LMP2, and then Deletraz...

Wow, Deletraz being Deletraz.

[AndreaModa]

That car was absolutely woeful at Spa earlier this year, so its no surprise it's all the way down there. Expect some controversy involving it at some point during the race!

[mario]

So Audi-Ultra on pole, no surprises there, but the Toyota was impressively fast, lapping nearly 1s under last year's pole time, we might just have a race on our hands here!

Umm... guys, the Audi e-Tron's on pole, not the Ultra

So the best Toyota was in the middle of the Audi's. And was also the one with a full team of F1 Rejects. I like it!

And at least their car has looked more competitive in qualifying than it was during the practise sessions - the big question, though, is going to be whether the engine can hold together for 24 hours as they've already had to use up their one spare engine (and in their last test before Le Mans, there were rumours that they blew one one of their engines just after doing a couple of qualifying style laps). It'll be interesting to see if Toyota can run longer than Audi can given that they are permitted to use larger fuel tanks - if Toyota can eke an extra lap, or more, out than Audi can, they might just be close enough on pace to pressurise Audi.
Further back down the grid, Jean-Christophe Boullion has announced that he will be withdrawing from the race after his accident on Wednesday - it seems that he injured his ribs during the accident and, although his injuries are not serious, he seems to have been in too much discomfort to continue driving. Given that he was concerned that he'd be too far off the pace due to those injuries, he has therefore pulled out of the race altogether. http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/100384

[pasta_maldonado]

I am amazed at how the DeltaWing can make it round the track, just by looking at it you'd imagine it has the turning circle of a medium-sized planet. The LM organisers shouldn't have let it race because now people will think "hold on! that's a good idea" when it clearly isn't. Anyway, how does it have any rear-end downforce without a rear wing?

[nome66]

better yet how's there any downforce at all?

[Phoenix]

better yet how's there any downforce at all?

I've read somewhere the car used ground effects, so that might be the explanation.

[IdeFan]

I am amazed at how the DeltaWing can make it round the track, just by looking at it you'd imagine it has the turning circle of a medium-sized planet. The LM organisers shouldn't have let it race because now people will think "hold on! that's a good idea" when it clearly isn't. Anyway, how does it have any rear-end downforce without a rear wing?

Almost all of the Deltawing's mass is over the rear axle, the driver sits very far back (vs a conventional prototype) and the engine and gearbox are tightly packed in behind him. With a conventional race car there is a lot of mass in front of the rear axle, so when the car turns some of that load must be taken by the front tires. With the Deltawing there is almost no mass there, all of the load goes through the fat rear tires, the front tires are there to "point" the car but not to take any of the load. The whole thing only weighs 450kg and the drivers report that it has a very good change of direction.

As for downforce, its got ground effect tunnels at the rear and doesn't need front downforce for the reasons mentioned above.

P.S. I wrote Ultra but I meant e-tron, for some reason I keep thinking that the conventional R18 is just called R18 and the hybrid one has the bunch of words after it, but in fact they both have a bunch of words after them.

[Myrvold]

Well, the Deletraz-car had some issues. Ihara crashed it on Thursday, they rebuildt the car, she then had to do 5 laps in dark, because she hadn't done that earlier. Then Rosten had to drive, because he didn't run anything in practice or the tests. So Deletraz didn't run at all two days ago.
It looks like Deletraz is the clearly best driver in the team. The two others are way out of their league in LMP-cars (worse than Deletraz in F1), and the team seems to have troubles running two cars.

[ADx_Wales]

OK I will post a picture now, you will spot a glaring error, you may sympathise but I dont:



This is the same network that provides an entire season of F1 to the UK like its holding it to ransom, they are on the phone to Anthony Davidson and asking him some of the stupiest questions like "Are you going to fall asleep at the wheel?"... I'm keeping my money in my pocket to be quite honest.

[RealRacingRoots]

Speaking of Anthony....

What a hit. Dat Ferrari driver.

[mario]

Thankfully, Toyota has built a very sturdy car as Davidson has been involved in a very heavy accident - he was tagged by one of the privateer Ferrari's in the GTAm class right at the end the Mulsanne Straight in an accident which has put both cars into the barriers at near terminal velocity (with the car being thrown up into the air quite violently). The good news is that both drivers are OK, even if it seems that it took some time for the medical crews to extract Davidson from the car, although given the force of the impact it remains to be seen whether Toyota can repair the car.
Added to that, the stewards are now taking a look into the causes of that accident (which quite a few people are blaming on Perazzini, who was driving the Ferrari at the time and seemed to turn into the side of Davidson).

[Cynon]

The Toyotas have both been really reckless with their passing moves on the GT cars so I hate to say it but a big crash like that was inevitable with the way they were driving... :\

[Shadaza]

That was the Ferrari drivers fault, no doubt about it.

[mario]

That was the Ferrari drivers fault, no doubt about it.

Whilst, as Cynon says, the Toyota drivers were being aggressive when passing the GT class drivers (I believe that the managers of both Toyota's cars were called into the stewards office for that very reason), in this case I think that more of the blame should be on the shoulders of Perazzini.
Given that Perazzini stated in an interview that he could see that Davidson was on his right, but chose to turn into the corner because he believed that Davidson was further back than he actually was, it seems he was fully aware of Davidson's presence but simply - and completely - misjudged his position (it should be noted that Perazzini is not a professional racing driver, and it sounds as if his lack of experience played a part in the accident).

[nome66]

toyota took out deltawing! yea-i mean aaawwwwwww

[F1000X]

bathplug you Nakajima, this is why you're not in F1. bathplug scumbag.