Ponderbox

[DemocalypseNow]

And yet, Globo still trots out Tema da Vitoria every time a Brazilian wins. Though admittedly that isn't often, having not happened since Rubinho back in 2009.

That may be tacky for some, but having grown up listening to that song a bit often, I do like it. I even get a little emotional when daydreaming of winning a F1GP at Interlagos

I know this only too well. It seems to be completely ingrained into the culture. My Brazilian S.O. starts singing this every time she beats me at something

[FullMetalJack]

Remember when Adrian Sutil was seen as one of the most exciting drivers by this forum?

By 2014 he was seen as the dullest man on the grid.

[WeirdKerr]

And now to completely change the subject, with a question relating to yesterday's "This Day In Reject History"...

We all know why Guy Ligier named his cars with the initials JS, but why were the F1 cars only given odd numbers?

So far the only evens I can track down are the JS2 sports car and the JS4/6/8 hairdryers driven (and crashed) by alcoholics and teenagers on French roads. But as for JS10, JS12 and so on... it seems these never existed. Or were they reserved as type numbers for the next hairdryer on the production line?

I'm with Mario - long ago I recall the even numbers were reserved for sports/road cars ...so when he sensibly concentrated on spending French cigarette money on beautiful (mostly..but not the JS19), they never got round to using those even numbers..
But it is a memory from long ago..source unknown

The JS19 is not that ugly

[Salamander]

Remember when Adrian Sutil was seen as one of the most exciting drivers by this forum?

By 2014 he was seen as the dullest man on the grid.

I remember when I half-seriously suggested he could be in a McLaren in 2010.

[Rob Dylan]

Remember when Adrian Sutil was seen as one of the most exciting drivers by this forum?

By 2014 he was seen as the dullest man on the grid.

2010 and 2011 were good seasons for him, and he deserved the 2012 Force India seat far more than di Resta ever did. But he had the inconsistency many drivers face, and continuously failed to capitalise on his opportunities, especially in 2009 (man, he could easily have gotten pole position at Monza easily, but blew it). He blew so much potential and so many opportunities, and by 2014 he hadn't done enough to get people going "Wow, I wonder what Sutil could do in that Sauber?" Everyone thought "Oh great, another season of mediocrity".

[Aguaman]

Kimi is doing a Q&A on Ferrari's Twitter account. It's been pretty Kimi-esq with 3-5 word answers.

[Backmarker]

McLaren would welcome GP2 teams with customer cars in Formula 1.

"We like the idea that a GP2 team, ART, could come along and buy or rent two McLarens," Boullier told F1 Racing.

"Straight away they would be competitive, without all the investment."

Competitive? Has he seen the McLarens?

[FullMetalJack]

Remember when Adrian Sutil was seen as one of the most exciting drivers by this forum?

By 2014 he was seen as the dullest man on the grid.

2010 and 2011 were good seasons for him, and he deserved the 2012 Force India seat far more than di Resta ever did. But he had the inconsistency many drivers face, and continuously failed to capitalise on his opportunities, especially in 2009 (man, he could easily have gotten pole position at Monza easily, but blew it). He blew so much potential and so many opportunities, and by 2014 he hadn't done enough to get people going "Wow, I wonder what Sutil could do in that Sauber?" Everyone thought "Oh great, another season of mediocrity".

2010 was definitely the height of this forum's love for Sutil, although not everyone here will remember it. I almost felt like I was going against the grain as I was hoping for him not to do so well, because of Williams trying to take 6th in the WCC from Force India.

[good_Ralf]

Remember when Adrian Sutil was seen as one of the most exciting drivers by this forum?

By 2014 he was seen as the dullest man on the grid.

2010 and 2011 were good seasons for him, and he deserved the 2012 Force India seat far more than di Resta ever did. But he had the inconsistency many drivers face, and continuously failed to capitalise on his opportunities, especially in 2009 (man, he could easily have gotten pole position at Monza easily, but blew it). He blew so much potential and so many opportunities, and by 2014 he hadn't done enough to get people going "Wow, I wonder what Sutil could do in that Sauber?" Everyone thought "Oh great, another season of mediocrity".

Don't forget all the bad luck he suffered in early 2013 in contrast to the fortune of his TM when the car was a regular points scorer (if not better still), but by the time his luck turned, the car's pace did the same.
And as for failing to get the results he deserved in 2009, remember some of the incidents (Germany, Brazil) were not his fault. Of course, pole in Italy was there for the taking but for that slip in the Lesmos.

[DanielPT]

McLaren would welcome GP2 teams with customer cars in Formula 1.

"We like the idea that a GP2 team, ART, could come along and buy or rent two McLarens," Boullier told F1 Racing.

"Straight away they would be competitive, without all the investment."

Competitive? Has he seen the McLarens?

Notice that he specified which GP2 team he would like to see entering F1. I wonder if he would still be liking it if it was Carlin and they bought or rented two Mercedes instead...

[dr-baker]

After the Australian Grand Prix 2013, the first Grand Prix after Michael Schumacher's retirement, I think I remember observing that that was the first Grand Prix in which none of the drivers had raced in a Formula 1 GP in which a driver had died. (Up to that point, Barrichello and/or Schumacher had competed in every race since Imola 1994.) Most of those drivers would still be competing at Suzuka last year. I imagine that there has never been Grand Prix in which at least one driver was or would be entered into a race in which tragedy struck? (If you can comprehend the point I am trying to make non-elequantly...)

[Rob Dylan]

After the Australian Grand Prix 2013, the first Grand Prix after Michael Schumacher's retirement, I think I remember observing that that was the first Grand Prix in which none of the drivers had raced in a Formula 1 GP in which a driver had died. (Up to that point, Barrichello and/or Schumacher had competed in every race since Imola 1994.) Most of those drivers would still be competing at Suzuka last year. I imagine that there has never been Grand Prix in which at least one driver was or would be entered into a race in which tragedy struck? (If you can comprehend the point I am trying to make non-elequantly...)

That's pretty tragic, now that I think about it. Means, excepting Will Stevens, all the drivers who raced in 2013 and 2014 will live out the rest of their careers having experienced Jules' death. And so that trend will continue :/

[dr-baker]

After the Australian Grand Prix 2013, the first Grand Prix after Michael Schumacher's retirement, I think I remember observing that that was the first Grand Prix in which none of the drivers had raced in a Formula 1 GP in which a driver had died. (Up to that point, Barrichello and/or Schumacher had competed in every race since Imola 1994.) Most of those drivers would still be competing at Suzuka last year. I imagine that there has never been a Grand Prix in which at least one driver was or would be entered into a race in which tragedy struck? (If you can comprehend the point I am trying to make non-elequantly...)

That's pretty tragic, now that I think about it. Means, excepting Will Stevens, all the drivers who raced in 2013 and 2014 will live out the rest of their careers having experienced Jules' death. And so that trend will continue :/

Adding to this, Alain Prost, Nigel Mansell and Michele Albereto were all entered into the 1982 Belgian Grand Prix; and every race between then and Imola 1994 saw at least one of these drivers compete. And the further back in history one goes, the shorter the gaps between tragedies.

[WeirdKerr]

The other day I was thinking How many Grand Prix have been won by a driver that did not lead a lap during the actual race, either by taking the lead on the final lap or DQ of the winner....

[Bobby Doorknobs]

The other day I was thinking How many Grand Prix have been won by a driver that did not lead a lap during the actual race, either by taking the lead on the final lap or DQ of the winner....

Piquet at Canada '91 springs to mind, but I can't of any other immediate examples.

[good_Ralf]

http://www.statsf1.com/en/statistiques/pilote/divers/victoire-sans-tour-en-tete.aspx

This link has a (short) table which shows all the drivers that won without leading a lap e.g. San Marino 1985, Belgium 1994.
As for races where the winning driver didn't inherit the lead until the last lap, Button didn't lead until Vettel slipped up in the 2011 Canadian Grand Prix, and Fisichella passed Raikkonen right before the red flag was shown in Brazil 2003.

http://www.statsf1.com/en/statistiques/pilote/divers/victoire-dernier-tour.aspx

The link above features all the races where the driver took the lead in the last lap. The last column in the table with the value 1 fits the initial query.
Oh, StatsF1,com, you never fail to impress me.

[WeirdKerr]

I may be wrong... but was there not a rule that no driver could rack up 3 penalties in a race and once they did get to their 3rd they would be black flagged?

[Bleu]

Gerhard Berger and Mika Häkkinen were briefly in the list of winners who didn't lead the lap. Both inherited win after first two cars were disqualified (Berger in Brazil 1995, Häkkinen in Malaysia 1999) but in both cases drivers ahead were re-instated.

[Alextrax52]

What about Felipe Massa at Belgium 2008? Don't remember him leading that race until his promotion after Hamilton's penalty

[FullMetalJack]

What about Felipe Massa at Belgium 2008? Don't remember him leading that race until his promotion after Hamilton's penalty

Checked it to see, turns out he did lead a few laps. To be fair, I didn't remember it either.

I was wondering, and I may have to try and research this myself; is Max Verstappen the first driver to escape reject status whilst still a teenager? I'm sure Vettel would have been 20 when he finished 4th in China.

[Bobby Doorknobs]

What about Felipe Massa at Belgium 2008? Don't remember him leading that race until his promotion after Hamilton's penalty

Checked it to see, turns out he did lead a few laps. To be fair, I didn't remember it either.

I was wondering, and I may have to try and research this myself; is Max Verstappen the first driver to escape reject status whilst still a teenager? I'm sure Vettel would have been 20 when he finished 4th in China.

I already told you in the unrejectifications thread

Is Verstappen the first ever teenage unrejectification?

As a matter of fact, he is. The previous youngest was Vettel, who was 20 years and 3 months old when he unrejectified himself.

[FullMetalJack]

What about Felipe Massa at Belgium 2008? Don't remember him leading that race until his promotion after Hamilton's penalty

Checked it to see, turns out he did lead a few laps. To be fair, I didn't remember it either.

I was wondering, and I may have to try and research this myself; is Max Verstappen the first driver to escape reject status whilst still a teenager? I'm sure Vettel would have been 20 when he finished 4th in China.

I already told you in the unrejectifications thread

Is Verstappen the first ever teenage unrejectification?

As a matter of fact, he is. The previous youngest was Vettel, who was 20 years and 3 months old when he unrejectified himself.

I find it quite depressing that he's managed that when it took me til 19 to pass my driving test.

[Alextrax52]

I find it quite depressing that he's managed that when it took me til 19 to pass my driving test.

Hey I'm 18 and I'm not even attempting to drive

[FullMetalJack]

Anyone here have drivers that they once really didn't like, but your opinions of them have changed over the years?

I ask this because although I really used to dislike him, in the last 3-4 years, i've really become a fan of Fernando Alonso, and i'm not sure why. I'm starting to think his 2012 season may have something to do with it.

[Rob Dylan]

Anyone here have drivers that they once really didn't like, but your opinions of them have changed over the years?

I ask this because although I really used to dislike him, in the last 3-4 years, i've really become a fan of Fernando Alonso, and i'm not sure why. I'm starting to think his 2012 season may have something to do with it.

Same here with Alonso. He got the fastest car when he was very young and built up an entitlement complex around 2006-2010 which I really hated. But after losing 2010 on the final race, he definitely sobered himself up and cleaned up his act and image, and has driven consistently excellently from about 2011 onwards. Before that I would never have thought I'd have been an Alonso fan. But I'll say it that he earned those championships in '05 and '06 later in his Ferrari years, and that his 2012 season was one of the best performances I've ever seen.

I'd shout out Ricciardo as another driver I warmed to over the years. In principle I didn't like that he took the HRT seat because it was just another Red Bull junior being pushed into F1 (that's 5 drivers on the grid counting the Red Bull team itself and Toro Rosso to go along with it, during a season in which Red Bull are winning absolutely everything). As well as this, I thought his Toro Rosso years were pretty patchy (think Bahrain 2012 where he hit just about every other car as he fell down the grid), and his performances were pretty much the same as Vergne's. The other reason I disliked him at first was that he and Vergne replaced Alguersuari and Buemi, who I thought were both decent drivers who deserved longer in Formula 1, and I never saw Ricciardo do anything to appear better than his predecessors.

But after last year's stint at Red Bull, wow. Wiped all that history away. That really was one hell of a season for him last year, and he went up in my estimation big-time.

[MorbidelliObese]

Anyone here have drivers that they once really didn't like, but your opinions of them have changed over the years?

I ask this because although I really used to dislike him, in the last 3-4 years, i've really become a fan of Fernando Alonso, and i'm not sure why. I'm starting to think his 2012 season may have something to do with it.

Not sure if it counts but I was never really a fan of either Eddie Irvine or Jacques Villeneuve when they were drivers, but since they've retired I've found myself having a more positive opinion, usually because I struggle to find things I disagree with whenever they're interviewed.

As far as changing opinions of drivers when they're still active goes, well I did mellow to Schumacher in his later years after spending most of the mid-90s and early 00s cheering against him, but that was probably a pure nostalgia trip, him being the last link to when I first started watching. Technically he debuted a few races after the first one I watched, but my memory of the time is a bit more blurred, whereas I have vivid recollections of (1992) races not containing Rubens Barrichello or anyone else who came after him.

Was thinking maybe Vettel but thinking about it more I've never actually had a problem with him even during the dominant Red Bull days I don't think. Let's say I've gone from indifference to him being one of my favourites on the current grid (probably material for the unpopular opinions thread to be honest)

[FullMetalJack]

Was thinking maybe Vettel but thinking about it more I've never actually had a problem with him even during the dominant Red Bull days I don't think. Let's say I've gone from indifference to him being one of my favourites on the current grid (probably material for the unpopular opinions thread to be honest)

I was never his biggest fan, although i've warmed to him slightly since leaving Red Bull. It didn't help that he was Mark Webber's teammate, who's always been one of my favourites. The way Red Bull sided with him at Istanbul 2010 when the incident was Vettel's fault, and the Silverstone incident didn't help. Before Istanbul, I never had any problem with him, and looking back, it's Red Bull's fault that I did. I've never had any problem admitting that I believe he's the second best driver on the grid, behind only Alonso.

[AndreaModa]

I find it quite depressing that he's managed that when it took me til 19 to pass my driving test.

Hey I'm 18 and I'm not even attempting to drive

Didn't pass mine till 24...but I had been riding since 17

[Bobby Doorknobs]

Speaking of driving tests: http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/j ... ng-test-f1

[Londoner]

Sky F1 are currently showing Valencia 2012, and it's reminding me of just how wonderful the 2012 season was. I highly doubt we'll get another season quite like it this decade. Where 8 teams could legit battle for the podium and even for victory. Good days they were.

[mario]

Sky F1 are currently showing Valencia 2012, and it's reminding me of just how wonderful the 2012 season was. I highly doubt we'll get another season quite like it this decade. Where 8 teams could legit battle for the podium and even for victory. Good days they were.

Given the public backlash from those who decried that the sport had become too random, I also doubt that we will see a repeat of that any time soon (even if it were not for the increased performance spread we are seeing now).

[DanielPT]

Sky F1 are currently showing Valencia 2012, and it's reminding me of just how wonderful the 2012 season was. I highly doubt we'll get another season quite like it this decade. Where 8 teams could legit battle for the podium and even for victory. Good days they were.

Given the public backlash from those who decried that the sport had become too random, I also doubt that we will see a repeat of that any time soon (even if it were not for the increased performance spread we are seeing now).

If Vettel somehow manages to keep himself in contention this season, I reckon that in a few years time, people will be praising this season, despite all the differences between the cars and huge gaps, for allowing a good 'classic' title fight until the end.

[MorbidelliObese]

About two thirds of the way through watching 1992 races. This was my first full season watching and of all the great things that I do remember, from Mansell's title, to the strong performances of Alboreto late in his career, to Roberto Moreno qualifying an Andrea Moda at Monaco, one thing that I didn't remember as clearly was how good Martin Brundle's season was.

I mean I remember him being a regular points and semi-regular podium scorer, but watching the races in full, aside from a shaky start to the season, from Imola onwards he was more impressive than I remember.

At Imola he passed Schumacher before his teammate binned it.
At Canada he passed Schumacher and was catching Berger for the lead before breaking down.
At Silverstone he led Schumacher pretty much all the way, and Senna for most of it.
In Hungary he was right on Schumacher's tail till Schumacher's wing fell off, late race mechanical troubles dropping him behind Hakkinen.
At Spa - Schumacher's first win, but again Brundle was on his tail pretty much throughout till Schumacher went off and he got by. MS immediately made that perfectly timed stop that won him the race (I've heard the story that he observed the state of Brundle's rear tyres to decide to stop)

Then keeping his head at Magny-Cours and Monza to get good results where Schumacher was involved in first lap incidents. Schumacher's recovery drive was very impressive at Monza, but Brundle didn't lose his nose on the first lap and deserved his second place to Senna there.

That's as far as I've got in the season, but he's been driving a lot better than I remember. Not saying he was the better of the two Benetton drivers, but I don't remember any other teammate getting that close to Schumacher in his first career. I mean Rubens had his days (e.g. Silverstone '03, Austria '02), but Brundle seems to be consistently there race by race, lap by lap. And this was the last year without safety cars so gaps weren't artificially closed up on a semi regular basis, so sitting one second behind Schumacher after half, two thirds of a race actually meant something.

I wonder if in terms of his reputation, he suffered a little in that people didn't realise how good Schumacher was at the time? I mean I know people were impressed but I guess at the time he was pretty much in the Alesi (1990) category of promising youngster rather than future seven time champion.

[Wallio]

Anyone here have drivers that they once really didn't like, but your opinions of them have changed over the years?

I ask this because although I really used to dislike him, in the last 3-4 years, i've really become a fan of Fernando Alonso, and i'm not sure why. I'm starting to think his 2012 season may have something to do with it.

Add me to the Alonso converts, seeing him compete in some HORRID Ferraris warmed me to him, plus his humor and "stick-it-out-ness" about this year, especially compared to Button, have only added to it.

[Rob Dylan]

Ok, how about the other way round? Excluding world champions, name some drivers you liked but over time came to dislike or hate.

In recent years I'd say Adrian Sutil, because he had a lot of promise in his early years (as was discussed on one of these forums a few weeks back), but over time his complete lack of interesting results just meant he was robbing other drivers of a seat they could benefit from and it was time for him to go.

I was always a bit changeable on the guy, but by the end of Rubens Barrichello's career, he was having the silliest accidents and just refused to admit that he might have to eventually retire. His stubbornness in refusing to call it a day just made a massive anticlimax out of a massive career.

[Wallio]

Rubens, liked him at Stewart then as he whined and cried his way through Ferrari and Honda....and Brawn...and Indycar (dude you WERE a rookie at Indy, get over it) I lost any respect for him.

And lately Massa, he has been so irritating since he left Ferrari.

[DemocalypseNow]

Ok, how about the other way round? Excluding world champions, name some drivers you liked but over time came to dislike or hate.

Mark Webber.

He had that amazing start to life in F1 with the 5th place, he became a driver who was a "nearly man" in the following seasons, and then finally his big break comes as Red Bull emerges as a true contender. He almost made it happen in 2010, but from then on there was the impression he was becoming every so slightly more petulant as each season wore on.

[CoopsII]

Ralf Schumacher. Him starting as a Jordan driver was a bonus but with me still being cross with Michael for various things the fact that he was quick, swore on live TV and clearly did not worship at the alter of Big Bro made him quite appealing. Then he did some great racing for Williams whilst Zanardi was unable to find his arse with an atlas. Even more than that he held his own against Montoya who it seemed like everyone was convinced had multiple WDCs in front of him.

But by Toyota it appeared that the lack of championships weighed heavily on Ralf, so much so that he appeared to believe that him thinking he should have won a few was the same as actually doing so and his demeanour and apparent sense of respect-entitlement I found very off putting.

[girry]

Heaven knows why, but I too was a Ralfie-fan when I was 6 years old or so. In fact my kart sported (and still does) the #5 in his honour.

I wouldn't go as far as describing it "hatred" or anything, and I genuinely do still hope he gets another F1 chance for his skills justify it - but as 2014 wore on, my initial support of Kevin Magnussen gradually disappeared and turned into a bit of an anti-support in the final races. It's a tad difficult to describe but I find he has the same kind of an aura as Nico Rosberg.

I loved BAR's and Super Aguri's Takuma Sato, and I still like him in indycar - but we're starting to approach the point where it would be best to say goodbye and stop banging his head against the same wall over and over again.

[Spectoremg]

Ralf Schumacher. Him starting as a Jordan driver was a bonus but with me still being cross with Michael for various things the fact that he was quick, swore on live TV and clearly did not worship at the alter of Big Bro made him quite appealing. Then he did some great racing for Williams whilst Zanardi was unable to find his arse with an atlas. Even more than that he held his own against Montoya who it seemed like everyone was convinced had multiple WDCs in front of him.

But by Toyota it appeared that the lack of championships weighed heavily on Ralf, so much so that he appeared to believe that him thinking he should have won a few was the same as actually doing so and his demeanour and apparent sense of respect-entitlement I found very off putting.

Driving for Toyota would suck the life out of anyone!