I reckon Button and Kobayashi together would work. With that combination, it wouldn't matter at all about McLaren's qualifying pace, they would both be able to charge through the field from whereever they qualified.
Not so sure about Jenson Button unless it rains in almost all the races...
The 'it's the car' argument doesn't wash with me because that is why a lot of charges have happened in the past, let's see: -
Spa 1994: - Schumacher goes from 16th to 1st, car used? fastest on the grid Hockenheim 2004: - Button charges to 2nd with one hand for most of the time, car used? Second fastest on the grid Suzuka 2005 Raikonnen from 18th t0 1st, car used? Mclaren deemed fastest but most unreliable in the field Hungary 2006: - Button from 14th to 1st, car used? BAR honda, 3rd fastest on grid Brazil 2009: - Button 14th to 5th, Vettel 16th - 4th, Hamilton 17th - 3rd, cars used? Three fastest on the grid china 2001: - webber from 18th - 3rd, car used? Fastest on the grid Canada 2011: - Button from 21st to 1st in 30 laps, car used? Second fastest on the grid.
Which in recent memory have been from someone in the 4th - 6th fastest in the field? Panis at Mocano 1996? Fisichella for Jordan at interlagos 2003? Barrichello at Silverstone 2008? Even they were rain affected, so often that renders some people to argue about its worth, in the dry when did it last happen with a mid-field runner? I can't recall it, so that tells me, the drivers who have had the car with the pace to pull it off, still had to make it work, and that is why the charges are remembered.
So you might be asking why I rate Button as a charger? Mainly because when he has done it, he has always found pace he shouldn't have. Like at Nurburgring 2007 when he somehow managed to go three seconds a lap faster than alonso until aquaplaning off. Or at Canada where he found pace massively faster than the field, from absolutely nowhere.
Brazil 2009 for me shows it best, Vettel and Hamilton came ahead of him, mainly through pitting later, on track passes was not something they had to forge, Button did, and sure, some of them were pretty much rookies, but on a narrow track like Interlagos that just ups the peril by several degrees.
In the pitlane, alongside Hamilton, Button is rated as one of the top overtakers, and looking back over the times he has had to duel with people, you can see why.
"Hispania are a waste of talent and petrol!" Martin Brundle, Australia Qualifying 2011
Just a little update on the Hamilton-Red Bull saga...
In a short story, up until now Hamilton showed his frustration at Vettel running away for a second-title in the same number of seasons and said that he wants to be in the best car. At this point there were around a few rumours about a possible move to Red Bull already, but this statement from Hamilton grew their intensity. Then that meeting with Horner in Canada prompted a new level, specially in the UK.
What is next? Hamilton to say that he would drive a Red Bull for free? McLaren offering a huge contract to try and keep him happy? Webber announces his retirement greatly enhancing rumours and speculation in favour of an RBR-Hamilton move? Don't miss the next episode because we won't!
Colin Kolles on F111, 2011 HRT challenger: The car doesn't look too bad; it looks like a modern F1 car.
Hamilton is an idiot to go to Red Bull with Vettel. He won't win anything, because he'll be put on a leash and never made to beat Vettel. And besides, once Newey leaves, Red Bull will go the way Williams did when he left them. Big infrastructure teams like McLaren would be able to go on and stay at the front of the grid, or at least not permanently be a midfield effort. McLaren is the safest career route for Hamilton, it's the ONLY place he can go right now and be the number 1 driver, and one of two places that he will still be winning races in 10 years.
"The FIA's implementation of penalties is about as effective as that of the English football team."
Peter wrote:Hamilton is an idiot to go to Red Bull with Vettel. He won't win anything, because he'll be put on a leash and never made to beat Vettel. And besides, once Newey leaves, Red Bull will go the way Williams did when he left them. Big infrastructure teams like McLaren would be able to go on and stay at the front of the grid, or at least not permanently be a midfield effort. McLaren is the safest career route for Hamilton, it's the ONLY place he can go right now and be the number 1 driver, and one of two places that he will still be winning races in 10 years.
Or perhaps Hamilton is not at all leashed and raises his game to beat and win with Red Bull wrecking Vettel confidence and career in the process. Even if Newey leaves, Red Bull infrastructure is already impressive. Besides, Williams troubles are mainly cash and of that Red Bull has plenty. They could turn themselves in a second Mercedes though...
Colin Kolles on F111, 2011 HRT challenger: The car doesn't look too bad; it looks like a modern F1 car.
Peter wrote:Hamilton is an idiot to go to Red Bull with Vettel.
You're an idiot for believing that he's already moved when The Daily Fail are the ones reporting it.
mario wrote:I'm wondering what the hell has been going on in this thread [...] it's turned into a bizarre detour into mythical flying horses and the sort of search engine results that CoopsII is going to have a very hard time explaining ...
Peter wrote:You're an idiot for actually thinking I believed the Daily Fail. I was pointing out how foolish that rumor is to begin with.
Really? Because I'm reading your post, and I'm not seeing it. Your first sentence is "Hamilton is an idiot to go to Red Bull with Vettel", which implies he has already agreed to it. A better sentence would read like this: "Hamilton would be an idiot to go to Red Bull with Vettel". It may be a semantic difference, but you can see how the choice and placement of one or two words radically alters the entire meaning of your sentence.
mario wrote:I'm wondering what the hell has been going on in this thread [...] it's turned into a bizarre detour into mythical flying horses and the sort of search engine results that CoopsII is going to have a very hard time explaining ...
Or is this just an underhanded shot at Lewis Hamilton, with Red Bull saying this just to tell Hamilton (and the world) that he's not fit to drive the best car on the grid?
That's funny, because when Button left Brawn GP, he actually asked Red Bull about the possibility of driving for them. He said he was just putting himself out there, to see if anything was on the market, but Red Bull said no, they were quite happy with their line-up for 2010.
mario wrote:I'm wondering what the hell has been going on in this thread [...] it's turned into a bizarre detour into mythical flying horses and the sort of search engine results that CoopsII is going to have a very hard time explaining ...
Captain Hammer wrote:That's funny, because when Button left Brawn GP, he actually asked Red Bull about the possibility of driving for them. He said he was just putting himself out there, to see if anything was on the market, but Red Bull said no, they were quite happy with their line-up for 2010.
Yeah, but that was BEFORE the big blowup between Vettel and Webber. So now? Well they've seen that Button CAN operate with a blisteringly quick teammate that the team is obviously banking on and who has a penchant for silly mistakes.
I.e being a perfect no.2 for Vettel.
I got Pointed Opinions and I ain't afraid to use em! F1rejects no.1Räikkönen and Vettel fan. BTW, thats Räikkönen with two K's and two N's. Not Raikonnen (Raikkonen is fine if you have no umlauts though)
I honestly don't think the blow-up between Webber and Vettel was that big a deal. if it was, Webber would nt be driving for Red Bull in 2011.
mario wrote:I'm wondering what the hell has been going on in this thread [...] it's turned into a bizarre detour into mythical flying horses and the sort of search engine results that CoopsII is going to have a very hard time explaining ...
Peter wrote:You're an idiot for actually thinking I believed the Daily Fail. I was pointing out how foolish that rumor is to begin with.
Really? Because I'm reading your post, and I'm not seeing it. Your first sentence is "Hamilton is an idiot to go to Red Bull with Vettel", which implies he has already agreed to it. A better sentence would read like this: "Hamilton would be an idiot to go to Red Bull with Vettel". It may be a semantic difference, but you can see how the choice and placement of one or two words radically alters the entire meaning of your sentence.
Hurrah Hurrah, Captain Nonsense is back to wind everyone up again. Get fun or get out!
Novitopoli wrote:Everytime someone orders at Pizza Hut, an Italian dies.
Peter wrote:You're an idiot for actually thinking I believed the Daily Fail. I was pointing out how foolish that rumor is to begin with.
Really? Because I'm reading your post, and I'm not seeing it. Your first sentence is "Hamilton is an idiot to go to Red Bull with Vettel", which implies he has already agreed to it. A better sentence would read like this: "Hamilton would be an idiot to go to Red Bull with Vettel". It may be a semantic difference, but you can see how the choice and placement of one or two words radically alters the entire meaning of your sentence.
Hurrah Hurrah, Captain Nonsense is back to wind everyone up again. Get fun or get out!
Hey, Hammer and I tend to disagree almost all the time, and I don't know how he feels toward me, but I respect the man and his opinion, and you all should too.
"The FIA's implementation of penalties is about as effective as that of the English football team."
Fetzie on Ferrari wrote:How does a driver hurtling around a race track while they're sous-viding in their overalls have a better understanding of the race than a team of strategy engineers in an air-conditioned room?l
East Londoner wrote:I have a slightly more believable rumour from the Independent; that Williams will be expecting to keep both Barrichello and Maldonado for 2012.
watka wrote:I find it amusing that whilst you're one of the more openly Christian guys here, you are still first and foremost associated with an eye for the ladies!
dinizintheoven wrote:GOOD CHRISTIANS do not go to jail. EVERYONE ON FORMULA ONE REJECTS should be in jail.
S951 wrote:Webber to go to STR and build the team around him - unrealistic
more plausible maybe would be ferrari, benetton ......
...or to take Red Bull back to IndyCar...
...and sponsor Team Rahal or something? We need some of the old CART guard back.
Ganassi, Penske, Newman/Haas, Dale Coyne...
... the old CART guard is alive and well. Andretti is the former Team Green, and HVM was formerly Herdez, Minardi Team USA, and Bettenhausen Motorsports.
Basically, when you think about it, only Rick Galles, Pat Patrick, Ron Hemelgarn, and Rahal-Letterman are missing.
... the old CART guard is alive and well. Andretti is the former Team Green, and HVM was formerly Herdez, Minardi Team USA, and Bettenhausen Motorsports.
Basically, when you think about it, only Rick Galles, Pat Patrick, Ron Hemelgarn, and Rahal-Letterman are missing.
True. Perhaps choice of words. Hmm, some more CART teams?
Honourary Youngest Forum Member, Joint Mackem Of The Forum
"When you’re racing, it... it’s life. Anything that happens before or after... is just waiting".
BlindCaveSalamander wrote:I still think Ferrari would be better off giving Kobayashi a go.
But Kobayashi is not a development driver, and there is nothing to suggest that the test being carried out by Perez and Bianchi is an audition for a 2012 racing seat. It's more likely that the test is simply a part of their young driver programme.
mario wrote:I'm wondering what the hell has been going on in this thread [...] it's turned into a bizarre detour into mythical flying horses and the sort of search engine results that CoopsII is going to have a very hard time explaining ...
No idea how reputable the source is, but my gut tells me it's bathplugging garbage.
He's finished with F1. Full stop.
So it's THAT time of the year again I bet we'll have similar rumor next year too! Räikkönen is done with F1, if only the press of the world would get it through their thick skulls. (Part of me would LOVE to be forced to eat those words though...)
I got Pointed Opinions and I ain't afraid to use em! F1rejects no.1Räikkönen and Vettel fan. BTW, thats Räikkönen with two K's and two N's. Not Raikonnen (Raikkonen is fine if you have no umlauts though)
No idea how reputable the source is, but my gut tells me it's bathplugging garbage.
He's finished with F1. Full stop.
So it's THAT time of the year again I bet we'll have similar rumor next year too! Räikkönen is done with F1, if only the press of the world would get it through their thick skulls. (Part of me would LOVE to be forced to eat those words though...)
I'm beginning to wonder if this is some sort of in joke amongst the motorsport press - Kimi has achieved all he wanted to do in F1 (he'd already admitted his interest in the sport was declining back in 2008), and he hasn't competed in any form of open wheeled racing since 2009. Besides, given the current driver line ups, it is hardly as if there is a shortage of competitive drivers at the moment, so I can't see any team rushing to bring Kimi in from the cold when there are plenty of choices within the paddock at the moment.
To be honest, I think that this year, whilst there is a lot of rubbish being printed, I would not be surprised if the driver line ups remain relatively static, especially amongst the top five teams - after all, despite the attempts of the press to whip up interest, the only driver missing from the top five teams is Kubica, and that was due to unexpected events. As Captain Hammer suggests, I expect that Ferrari are, for the moment, using the test for Perez and Bianchi to judge how well they are developing, and perhaps to use Perez to put a little pressure on Bianchi (Bianchi has, for various reasons, not done especially well in GP2 this year).
Ferrari prefers to recruit more experience drivers, after all, with Sauber often being used as a proving ground for them - even Massa, one of their less experienced drivers they recruited in the modern era, had three years at Sauber under his belt before he made the switch to Ferrari. For Ferrari to recruit Perez from Sauber after just a year in Formula 1 would be a big break from their normal recruitment policy, so I'd expect Massa to stay put for a couple of years yet.
Martin Brundle, on watching a replay of Grosjean spinning: "The problem with Grosjean is that he want to take a look back at the corner he's just exited"
Red Bull Racing / Renault #1 - Sebastian VETTEL #2 - Kamui KOBAYASHI
Vettel comfortably wins the 2011 World Championship. Mark Webber leaves the team when he feels they do not support him in his bid to place second overall by refusing his request to have Vettel support him through the final races of the season. Webber once again turns the public on the team before a very public exit from the sport. Desperate for positive attention (for once), Red Bull hire Kamui Kobayashi.
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Scuderia Ferrari Claro #3 - Fernando ALONSO #4 - Sergio PEREZ
Despite Ferrari's assurances that his seat is safe, Felipe Massa is shown the door. There is a strong campaign to get Nico Hulkenberg into the seat, and the young German driver is even given a test in the Ferrari F10 - but it ends badly. After some impressive performances late in the season, Sergio Perez joins Ferrari. He is seen as the perfect fit for the team: faster than Felipe, but not as fast as Fernando.
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Vodafone McLaren Automotive / Mercedes #5 - Jenson BUTTON #6 - Lewis HAMILTON
Despite the negativity in the British press, Hamilton elects to stay with McLaren through 2012, deciding to honour his contract until the end rather than jump ship. The move is positively received by fans, but the tabloids are suspiciously quiet, though talk around the paddock is that they are treading very lightly after the Murdoch phone-hacking scandal. Button beats Hamilton in the points standings and so gets the right to a higher number.
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Lotus Renault GP #7 - Vitaly PETROV #8 - Robert KUBICA
After losing fourth in the constructors' championship at Silverstone, Renault fight back in the second half of the season with a charge led by Vitaly Petrov. Nick Heidfeld is replaced for the final away leg by Romain Grosjean in anticipation of a drive in 2012, but Robert Kubica recovers faster than exepcted joins the team in Brazil. Having shown that he is fit, he is immediately retained for 2012.
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Mercedes GP Petronas #9 - Nico ROSBERG #10 - Paul DI RESTA
Mercedes finally manage to find forward gear in their development and the MGP-W02 finishes the season as a strong platform for the MGP-W03. Michael Schumacher finally makes it into the podium, but decides to re-retire. The list of potential replacement drivers has just one name on it: Paul di Resta, who obliterates Adrian Sutil at Force India.
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Telmex Sauber F1 Team / Ferrari #11 - Felipe MASSA #12 - Jules BIANCHI
With both Kobayashi and Perez moving on at the end of 2011, Sauber need two new drivers. They quickly pick up Felipe Massa after he is unceremoniously booted from Ferrari, whilst teaming him with GP2 runner-up Jules Bianchi. The Massa-Perez swap leads fans to believe that Massa was sent to Sauber to mentor promising drivers, but a leaked contract reveals that when Ferrari cut him loose, they had nothing lined up for him.
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Scuderia Toro Rosso / Ferrari #14 - Jaime ALGUERSUARI #15 - Daniel RICCIARDO
Changes in Toro Rosso's driver line-up were expected in the middle of 2011, but with Buemi and Alguersuari both making strong cases for themselves, the decision is delayed until the start of 2012. Ultiamtely, Alguersuari wins out; although Buemi is the stronger qualifier, Alguersuari scores more points and Buemi is cut loose. Daniel Ricciardo does not fulfil his potential at Hispania, but is drafted into Toro Rosso regardless.
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Force India F1 / Mercedes #16 - Heikki KOVALAINEN #17 - Sebastien BUEMI
After losing Paul di Resta to Mercedes GP, Vijay Mallya is forced to re-evaluate his plans for Adrian Sutil and intially decides to keep him. However, the incident in a Shanghai nightclub comes back to haunt him, and Sutil is given a two-race ban at the end of 2011. After running Nico Hulkenberg for two races, Mallya successfully steals Kovalianen from Lotus and picks up Sebastien Buemi from Toro Rosso.
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PDVSA Williams F1 / Renault #18 - Pastor MALDONADO #19 - Romain GROSJEAN
Williams originally had every intention of keeping Rubens Barrichello for 2012. However, a lawsuit from Michael Waltrip Racing over Mike Coughlan's departure from the team proves to be a disaster: the team is forced to pay out and the share price plummets. Desperate for funding and dependent upon Maldonado for what little they have, Williams use their Renault connection to pick up GP2 champion Grosjean. Barrichello joins the FIA as a permanent driver steward and is favoured to become the next President.
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Virgin Marussia Racing / Cosworth #20 - Timo GLOCK #21 - Jerome D'AMBROSIO
A race of attrition in India leads to Timo Glock managing to score Virgin's first World Championship point. The result is a shock to everyone in the team, who had been concentrating on 2012. A mid-season (pre-India) name change to make Marussia the constructor protects their position, and they enter 2012 with a significant boost in funding and a brand new car with plenty of promise. Glock and d'Ambrosio are retanined for consistency.
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Hispania Racing F1 Team / Cosworth #22 - Vitantonio LIUZZI #23 - Ho-Pin TUNG
Still largely sponsorless, Hispania pick up funding from China and duly put Ho-Pin Tung into the second seat. Tonio Liuzzi is kept on-board after he secures eleventh in the 2011 World Constructors' Championship with a run of thirteenth places that Team Fernandes cannot match. Where the team was openly derided for their constant state of financial turmoil, fans warm to them in light of Liuzzi's results and they soon become "the new Minardi".
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Sonangol Team Caterham / Renault #24 - Karun CHANDHOK #25 - Davide VALSECCHI
It all goes pear-shaped for Tony Fernandes. The Lotus T128 piques far too soon, and the team suffer an embarrassing run of double retirements. A frustrated Jarno Trulli retires while Kovalainen is poached by Force India. Chandhok and Valsecchi are called up in their place. Fernandes is forced to change his team name after foolishly painting his Team Air Asia GP2 cars green and yellow and then trying to sue Lotus ART on the grounds that he is Team Lotus.
mario wrote:I'm wondering what the hell has been going on in this thread [...] it's turned into a bizarre detour into mythical flying horses and the sort of search engine results that CoopsII is going to have a very hard time explaining ...
No idea how reputable the source is, but my gut tells me it's bathplugging garbage. quote]
He's finished with F1. Full stop.
So it's THAT time of the year again I bet we'll have similar rumor next year too! Räikkönen is done with F1, if only the press of the world would get it through their thick skulls. (Part of me would LOVE to be forced to eat those words though...)
I'm beginning to wonder if this is some sort of in joke amongst the motorsport press - Kimi has achieved all he wanted to do in F1 (he'd already admitted his interest in the sport was declining back in 2008), and he hasn't competed in any form of open wheeled racing since 2009. Besides, given the current driver line ups, it is hardly as if there is a shortage of competitive drivers at the moment, so I can't see any team rushing to bring Kimi in from the cold when there are plenty of choices within the paddock at the moment.
I wonder if part of this sensation has been drilled up because of how mediocre Kimi Raikkonen was in his NASCAR debut and with his less than stellar WRC outings...
No idea how reputable the source is, but my gut tells me it's bathplugging garbage.
He's finished with F1. Full stop.
Actually, this sounds somewhat sensible. Kimi did get offered contracts from Red Bull and McLaren after Ferrari bought him out, but Kimi denied both, due to them not paying him as much as he wanted. With Kimi seeming to be done with his little journey to NASCAR, going back to WRC, maybe we'll see him replace Webber next year, or the year after. Kimi will be attracted back because of the opportunity to drive a race winning car. That's what Kimi wants, he will only come back if he can have a race winning car, and Red Bull will offer Kimi quite a bit of money now, to join Vettel, and give Red Bull the most explosive lineup on the grid.
"The FIA's implementation of penalties is about as effective as that of the English football team."
