Your Reject of the Year 2012

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Re: Your Reject of the Year 2012

Post by David AGS »

My take

1. Mercedes. Won a race, but were awful in particular the last half of the season

2. Catenham

3. McLaren (no bias there!)

Bit tricky this year. Considering Merc had 1 1/2 decent drivers, a big budget, a lot of technical big wigs and all, they were expected to do much better. Has the double DRS which was meant to be unbeatable at the start of the year with their massive straight line (speed apparently). Catenham should have done better, but overall theyd be happy with 10th. Considering they had 2 good drivers, biggest budget compared to the other newbies, Renault engines/package and KERS should be more competitive. Positive in first half of season, but MVR did well in second half. McLaren did well, for a little bit of reliability they would have been fighting till the end, but dissapointing was their mid season dip, and loosing pole in Spain due to lack of fuel is enough to qualify as a reject on its own.

Drivers:
1. Kovalainen. Bit harsh, but few times Petrov outqualified him and outraced him. Yes Kovi did reach Q2 a few times, but Kovi did most if not all Fridays unlike Petrov.

2. di Resta. Maybe second season syndrome, but I thought he should have been better, as the Fi car was very good on most occasions. In his second year as a full time driver with the team, but The Hulk did much better

3. Grosjean. Romain wasnt a rookie, but did many rookie mistakes. Bit unlucky as probably would of won in Valencia (leading when alternator let him down) but was consistently inconsistent. Considering Raikki (correct if wrong) scored in every race, the Frenchman should have done better.

I left out Senna, who did not do a Friday first session compared to the Pastor, while the HRT cars were off the pace all season, not due to its drivers.
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Re: Your Reject of the Year 2012

Post by Faustus »

Kovalainen or Caterham for me.
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Re: Your Reject of the Year 2012

Post by pher38 »

I am really surprised few people have suggested Bruno Senna for reject of the year! I really don't want to beat up on the guy because I would have loved to see him and Williams do well in 2012 due to what happened in the past, but it has to be said the FW34 has hugely flattered its drivers this season. In my humble opinion, Williams will probably look back on 2012 as a wasted opportunity to have at least finished 5th in the Constructors Championship. I am going to put my neck on the line here, but I honestly believe Williams had the second fastest car at the start of the season, just behind Lotus! Had you put Alonso in the FW34 they might even have won the championship!

Thinking back to 2011, Rubens Barrichello had still been showing well at Williams given the dire car. (He even outscored the now highly rated Nico Hülkenberg by 25 points in 2010) Maldonado had been just about matching him in qualifying and race pace, but Rubens overall had had the edge. Rubens has his critics (I really don't know why) and he was never as good as Schumacher, or say Vettel, Alonso or Rosberg, but I think it's fair to say he was a good F1 driver and just about a match for Jenson Button. In the Honda/Brawn days they were relatively evenly matched.

Now, this season Maldonado has been qualifying near the very front of the grid and has thrown away some potentially mega results for the team. Putting the wild crashes to one side, it seems to most in the press that Maldonado has some genuinely raw pace! However, comparing his evenly matched results both in qualifying and the race with Barrichello last year (I know Barrichello scored 5 points to Maldonado’s 1, but Maldonado lost 6th place in Monaco when Lewis put him in the wall) is there any reason to think Rubens would not have also been up at the front this year? I don’t interpret the good qualifying results and race win in Spain as a sudden improvement from Pastor, but as a huge improvement from the car! The ban on off-throttle blown diffusers clearly helped Williams in 2012. Given the team’s lack of budget compared to Red Bull or Ferrari etc the cars speed did tail off through the season as the development race kicked in and Korea was defiantly the weakest weekend in terms of raw speed, but looking back to Australia, Monaco, Europe, Singapore, Belgium and UAE Williams could have scored some very good results.

Bruno Senna however has not been anywhere near the front of the grid this year in the same way Maldonado has. His racecraft has generally been good as he scored a few 9th and 10th places by staying out of trouble, apart from some unfortunate accidents in Valencia, Suzuka and Interlagos. I am sure that Williams and many in the F1 paddock knew the FW34 chassis was capable of much more though.

When looking at the raw speed of Bruno Senna, I will never forget the 2010 Singapore GP when Christian Klien partnered him at Hispania Racing because Sakon's cash payment was late for the weekend. Klien, at best, was only just a match for David Couthard's driving talent, (compare their results at Red Bull in 2005 and 2006) but he turned up in a car he had only driven in a few practice sessions and out qualified Bruno by over a second!

If Liuzzi can get the Reject of the Year in 2010 despite some 6th and 7th point scoring races Bruno could be given the award in 2012!

In a positive light, it says something though about the level of competition in Formula 1 if you can score some reasonable results or even be a race winner like Mercedes on one day and yet still be in contention for reject of the year!

*I just want to say Ferrari completely got out of jail of being ROTY in 2012, due to Alonso's brilliance and the teams good race strategies/pitstops. Given their budget, some $300 million a season, they shouldn’t have started the season with arguably the 8th quickest car. Apart from Caterham, Marussia and HRT only Toro Rosso seemed genuinely slower.
Last edited by pher38 on 01 Dec 2012, 22:56, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Your Reject of the Year 2012

Post by Shadaza »

pher38 wrote:
*I just want to say Ferrari completely got out of jail of being ROTY in 2012, due to Alonso's brilliance and the teams good race strategies/pitstops. Given their budget, some $300 a season, they shouldn’t have started the season with arguably the 8th quickest car. Apart from Caterham, Marussia and HRT only Toro Rosso seemed genuinely slower.


That and the Ferrari was the best car for most of the European season :lol:.

I am still giving Reject of the Year to McLaren.

They started and ended the season with the best car but only managed 3rd in the championship, they also lost Hamilton and have taken a huge gamble on Perez.
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Re: Your Reject of the Year 2012

Post by Salamander »

pher38 wrote:...


That's true, but given Bruno's track record I was hardly expecting miracles out of him. But Mercedes actually looked like doing something this year; they got a bunch of staff back in 2011, focused early on this year's car, and out of the box it looked pretty quick. And then Rosberg went and put in the drive of his career in China. But since Schumacher's podium, they've shot backwards through the field, with Schumacher's result in Brazil their only score in the last 6 races, and they barely came over the line 5th. 5th, and they would've been 6th had Perez not lost his head! This, when people were touting them as championship contenders after China, and with good reason! That's inexcusable! Yeah, you could say the same for McLaren, but at least they racked up some results when they didn't screw up.

Also, Williams 2nd fastest behind Lotus? Aren't you forgettting McLaren?
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Re: Your Reject of the Year 2012

Post by DanielPT »

I will go with Mercedes. It is impossible not to.
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Re: Your Reject of the Year 2012

Post by DonTirri »

My roty goes to Every Forum member who keep taking it out on Vettel.
He's good. Deal with it.

Now for the real picks, and imo there is only one.

McLaren Mercedes. They had two great drivers. A racewinning car, and then they throw away all chances of championship to unprofessional errors and technical woes. Not to mention alienating Hamilton. Not a strong year for the maccas. They should've just stuck with the Finns' :P
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Re: Your Reject of the Year 2012

Post by the Masked Lapwing »

DonTirri wrote:My roty goes to Every Forum member who keep taking it out on Vettel.
He's good. Deal with it.


Not everyone has to like Vettel. Deal with it.
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Re: Your Reject of the Year 2012

Post by pasta_maldonado »

DonTirri wrote:My roty goes to Every Forum member who keep taking it out on Vettel.
He's good. Deal with it.



Not everyone has to be a troll. Deal with it.
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Re: Your Reject of the Year 2012

Post by 1993DonningtonNo1 »

My Reject of the Year for 2012:
3rd Place - McLaren: They had the best car, two proven drivers, it was 2005 all over again!

2nd Place - Caterham: There is only so long they can afford another near miss like that, hopefully next year we will start to see the bigger PIC!

1st Place - Mercedes: Apart from winning the Chinese Grand Prix, they reminded me somewhat of Toyota in 2009, onward and upward on minute, down and out the next. They better shape up next year because they now have Lewis to deal with and the last thing anyone wants is for him to decline Emerson Fittipaldi style.
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Re: Your Reject of the Year 2012

Post by mario »

DonTirri wrote:My roty goes to Every Forum member who keep taking it out on Vettel.
He's good. Deal with it.

Now for the real picks, and imo there is only one.

McLaren Mercedes. They had two great drivers. A racewinning car, and then they throw away all chances of championship to unprofessional errors and technical woes. Not to mention alienating Hamilton. Not a strong year for the maccas. They should've just stuck with the Finns' :P

As others say, each to their own when it comes to the matter of whether or not they like Vettel provided that it isn't exaggerated.

On your second point, though, although I did initially nominate Mercedes as my ROTY, I am beginning to move towards the position of perhaps nominating McLaren instead. Now, Mercedes did perform quite badly throughout this year, especially in terms of developing their car, but at the same time there is also the fact that, overall, expectations for the team were probably relatively low at the start of the season.

In a number of aspects, McLaren's performance this year represented, in a number of ways, a far greater under performance compared to their expectations compared to Mercedes. Their performance in testing suggested that the team had a very competitive car right from the start, unlike in previous years where they have started behind their rivals and had to catch them up in development - it is worth noting that Hamilton was the only driver this year to never fail to make Q3 this season, which shows that, at least in qualifying trim, the core performance of the car was solid.
As DonTirri says, on paper the driver line up at McLaren was, arguably, one of the most balanced and strongest in the field, whilst the reliability record that McLaren have had in recent years has been quite strong (in 2011, for example, each driver only had one DNF due to mechanical failures - Button had that hydraulics failure in Germany and Hamilton had a gearbox failure in Brazil).

All in all, they should have been in a position to take both the WDC and WCC - however, in both situations McLaren came up a long way short of either achievement, and ended up slipping backwards in the WCC instead. Considering Massa's terrible form in the early part of the season, McLaren should have beaten Ferrari - as it is, in the last five races of this season they turned a 20 point lead over Ferrari into a 22 point deficit.
Their performance this season oscillated quite wildly - Ferrari started off poorly, but at least they were on an upward trajectory for most of the season, as were Red Bull, whereas McLaren went from some utterly dominant performances in some races to being just an also-ran in others. Furthermore, their reliability this season was poor - it easily robbed them of enough points to have comfortably outperformed Ferrari, and perhaps even Red Bull, and cost both drivers dearly in the WDC.

Some of the mistakes that McLaren made earlier this season were, for a team that prides itself on precision and professionalism, absurd - botched wheel changes for both drivers, especially Hamilton's botched stop in Bahrain, dropping part of Hamilton's pit board on his head in Monaco, clumsy strategies and failing to react to obvious problems that were in front of their eyes - when McLaren did finally wake up and sort out their problems they were pretty slick in the pit lane, but it took them far too long for a team of their professional stature.
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Re: Your Reject of the Year 2012

Post by coloni_subaru »

If you asked me (and i'm sure a few others) after 15 races who would win this award, then Massa would have won this award hands down! However, his last few races rescued him from ROTY, but his appalling record and results for the first 15 races definately deserves a mention.

For me, the winner is Mercedes, but like Mario i also feel there is a strong case for Mclaren: while Mercedes failed to develop their car and remained slow, Mclaren often had the pace, plus the drivers, but make far too many mistakes for such a top team.

(dis?)Honourable mentions:

Schumacher (too many errors)
Glock (Singapore aside is starting to look pretty tired at Marussia)
Caterham for failing to move forward again and even considering putting a driver of VdG's ability into F1...
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Re: Your Reject of the Year 2012

Post by Shadaza »

coloni_subaru wrote:Glock (Singapore aside is starting to look pretty tired at Marussia)


I would agree with all but the Glock suggestion. There were certainly times last season where this looked the case, but you only need to look at the opening few minutes of Interlagos Q1 to realise the hunger is still there.
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Re: Your Reject of the Year 2012

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pher38 wrote:
* Ferrari ... Given their budget, some $300 a season, they shouldn’t have started the season with arguably the 8th quickest car.

With a budget of only $300, they should not even have been able to do a thing in F1!
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Re: Your Reject of the Year 2012

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pher38 wrote:
* Ferrari ... Given their budget, some $300 a season, they shouldn’t have started the season with arguably the 8th quickest car.

With a budget of only $300, they should not even have been able to do a thing in F1! Gotta love typos... ;) :D
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Re: Your Reject of the Year 2012

Post by GwilymJJames »

Caterham, Marussia, HRT. Come on guys, you've had three years in the sport. Make some bathplug progress. If you went back to Feb 2010 and told someone that in three years Caterham, Marussia and HRT would spend the next 3 years no where near the points, firstly they'd be confused that you weren't talking about Lotus, Virgin & Campos, secondly they'd ask what happened to USF1, and thirdly, I think, they'd be quite shocked. But, I mean, when are they actually going to be able to regularly challenge Toro Rosso? HRT at least have the excuse of their tumultuous, now terminal, ownership situation, but what the hell are Caterham and Marussia's excuses?
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Re: Your Reject of the Year 2012

Post by lostpin »

Mercedes. Having won a race in the first half of the season made it quite hard not to have high expectations for them. They made Schumacher's mistakes even more apparent by the mere fact of mechanical issues, which were down to the car and not the driver. They even announced Hamilton's seat takeover even before Schumacher declared his final retirement, which was a bit distasteful, considering his F1 stature. A horrible season indeed, and no particular excuses to cover it up.
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Re: Your Reject of the Year 2012

Post by CarlosFerreira »

Spare a thought for Rosberg. Ever since the Merc started losing pace he seems to have lowered his arms - exactly what Williams used to accuse him of. The Schu, on his way out, often beat him during the second half of the season, both in the race and in qualifying. He's not looking all that good these days.
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Re: Your Reject of the Year 2012

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Teams:

1st - Mercedes
Given their budget, and the apparent talent of those driving for them, there's no way they should have ended the season 5th, fighting with Sauber and behind Enstone, especially in a year when they won their first grand prix in the current incarnation. If they are so far off again come next season, Lewis Hamilton will be getting the Rolodex out and phoning Ron Dennis.

2nd - Williams
Again, a team that won a race, and yet didn't deliver beyond that. They should rightly be unhappy with 8th in the championship.

3rd - McLaren
Unreliability meant they didn't deliver on qualifying pace, which took Hamilton out of contention for the championship, and left him 4th in the championship.

Honourable Mention - Ferrari
2nd in the championship flatters them, and I think they have a lot to thank Fernando Alonso for. Their qualifying performances over the course of the season reveal their shocking lack of pace.

Drivers

1st - Bruno Senna
An absolute waste of a good car. The good Reverend Maldolan is no Michael Schumacher/Alain Prost/Nikki Lauda/Jim Clark/Juan Manuel Fangio/Olivier Panis, but he outpaced the Brazilian consistently in qualifying, and always looked the more likely to do something with the car (and did at Catalunya, which admittedly makes him look better than he was). I hope I don't see Bruno riding his uncle's corpse to yet another seat in F1 - he's had his opportunity and was found lacking.

2nd - Romain Grosjean
I really like Grosjean, so it's a bind for me to put him 2nd on my list of rejects of the year. He did, however, crash far too many times, wasting competitive machinery. I think it's actually nerves and concentrating too much that makes him crash, as he didn't demonstrate this at all in his pre-F1 career. He did not, however, behave like a GP2 champion this season. That said, I think he's earned another season in F1, and hopefully he can overcome this problem and demonstrate his true value in an F1 car.

3rd - Heikki Kovalainen
He clearly doesn't want to be at Caterham any more, and Petrov looked better than him over the course of the season, despite not being as highly regarded. If I ever see him behind the wheel again, I think it should be a rally car.

Honourable mention - Pastor Maldonado
The win at Catalunya saves him, but it's worth remembering that he scored 55.6% of his points for the season in that one race. Had he retired at Catalunya he would have scored less than his maligned team-mate, and I would have him in 1st, not 4th.
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Re: Your Reject of the Year 2012

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Backmarker wrote:2nd - Williams
Again, a team that won a race, and yet didn't deliver beyond that. They should rightly be unhappy with 8th in the championship.


I wouldn't blame Williams for that - their lack of results is mostly down to Maldonado crashing and Senna being slow.
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Re: Your Reject of the Year 2012

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BlindCaveSalamander wrote:
Backmarker wrote:2nd - Williams
Again, a team that won a race, and yet didn't deliver beyond that. They should rightly be unhappy with 8th in the championship.


I wouldn't blame Williams for that - their lack of results is mostly down to Maldonado crashing and Senna being slow.

Yeah, Williams should've had twice as many points.
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Re: Your Reject of the Year 2012

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BlindCaveSalamander wrote:I wouldn't blame Williams for that - their lack of results is mostly down to Maldonado crashing and Senna being slow.


Sure, but Williams as an entity for having to resort to such pay drivers is probably worthy of a nomination.
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Re: Your Reject of the Year 2012

Post by roblo97 »

Paul Di resta wins ROTR IMO because he has been hopelessly outclassed by the hulk all season and does not warrant a drive next year IMO
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Re: Your Reject of the Year 2012

Post by Salamander »

roblomas52 wrote:Paul Di resta wins ROTR IMO because he has been hopelessly outclassed by the hulk all season and does not warrant a drive next year IMO


All season? He was beating Hulk earlier in the year.
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Re: Your Reject of the Year 2012

Post by CarlosFerreira »

BlindCaveSalamander wrote:
roblomas52 wrote:Paul Di resta wins ROTR IMO because he has been hopelessly outclassed by the hulk all season and does not warrant a drive next year IMO


All season? He was beating Hulk earlier in the year.


... when the Hulk was looking for the car's door handles. Once he figured out he just needed to jump on the seat, di Resta was made to look a bit silly.
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Re: Your Reject of the Year 2012

Post by Faustus »

Remarkable how many different drivers and teams we have been nominating. There really isn't a clear-cut undeniable Reject of the Year this year, unlike previous years.
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Re: Your Reject of the Year 2012

Post by Zetec »

BlindCaveSalamander wrote:
Backmarker wrote:2nd - Williams
Again, a team that won a race, and yet didn't deliver beyond that. They should rightly be unhappy with 8th in the championship.


I wouldn't blame Williams for that - their lack of results is mostly down to Maldonado crashing and Senna being slow.


Well, it was Williams choice to hire Maldonado/Senna. So, yes, in a way you can blame Williams.
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Re: Your Reject of the Year 2012

Post by Zetec »

roblomas52 wrote:Paul Di resta wins ROTR IMO because he has been hopelessly outclassed by the hulk all season and does not warrant a drive next year IMO


Well, Paul di Resta should win ROTY for being Paul di Resta... And I hope we don't have to see this bland Scot beyond 2012.
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Re: Your Reject of the Year 2012

Post by mario »

Faustus wrote:Remarkable how many different drivers and teams have been we have been nominating. There really isn't a clear-cut undeniable Reject of the Year this year, unlike previous years.

I guess that it emblematic of the variability throughout the earlier part of the year - with form oscillating so wildly at times, it was very easy to go from hero to zero from race to race (or even within a race) in an instant. We saw some drivers start out strong and tail off - Webber's form later on in the season was pretty poor given the car he had at his disposal was one of the best in the field - whereas some started out terribly but turned that around sharply (Massa being the most marked example) - with few drivers or teams being consistently bad throughout the season.
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Re: Your Reject of the Year 2012

Post by Faustus »

mario wrote:
Faustus wrote:Remarkable how many different drivers and teams have been we have been nominating. There really isn't a clear-cut undeniable Reject of the Year this year, unlike previous years.

I guess that it emblematic of the variability throughout the earlier part of the year - with form oscillating so wildly at times, it was very easy to go from hero to zero from race to race (or even within a race) in an instant. We saw some drivers start out strong and tail off - Webber's form later on in the season was pretty poor given the car he had at his disposal was one of the best in the field - whereas some started out terribly but turned that around sharply (Massa being the most marked example) - with few drivers or teams being consistently bad throughout the season.


So the question to be asked is, is this a good thing or not? I like unpredictability and we have had some very interesting races this year.
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Re: Your Reject of the Year 2012

Post by CarlosFerreira »

Faustus wrote:
mario wrote:
Faustus wrote:Remarkable how many different drivers and teams have been we have been nominating. There really isn't a clear-cut undeniable Reject of the Year this year, unlike previous years.

I guess that it emblematic of the variability throughout the earlier part of the year - with form oscillating so wildly at times, it was very easy to go from hero to zero from race to race (or even within a race) in an instant. We saw some drivers start out strong and tail off - Webber's form later on in the season was pretty poor given the car he had at his disposal was one of the best in the field - whereas some started out terribly but turned that around sharply (Massa being the most marked example) - with few drivers or teams being consistently bad throughout the season.


So the question to be asked is, is this a good thing or not? I like unpredictability and we have had some very interesting races this year.


I'd say it's a good thing. Unpredictability in rejectfulness is something to cheer about, isn't it?
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Re: Your Reject of the Year 2012

Post by Ferrim »

pher38 wrote:I am really surprised few people have suggested Bruno Senna for reject of the year! I really don't want to beat up on the guy because I would have loved to see him and Williams do well in 2012 due to what happened in the past, but it has to be said the FW34 has hugely flattered its drivers this season. In my humble opinion, Williams will probably look back on 2012 as a wasted opportunity to have at least finished 5th in the Constructors Championship. I am going to put my neck on the line here, but I honestly believe Williams had the second fastest car at the start of the season, just behind Lotus! Had you put Alonso in the FW34 they might even have won the championship!


As somewhat of a Williams fan, I remain convinced to this day that they should have finished 3rd in 2009. Yes, 3rd. McLaren and Ferrari, which were 3rd and 4th, had massively slower cars than Williams at the beginning of the season, when the team lost lots of mistakes through operational mistakes. Rosberg also had his share of lost points, particularly at Singapore where he threw away a 2nd place. He should have finished the season on 50+ points instead of the 34.5 he actually got. And then they had a muppet in the other car, who didn't manage to score a single point (not a single point! In the third best car for quite a few races at the start of the year!) throughout the season and was just once on his way to do it (Turkey, where he lost a fairly secure 7th place because of a botched pit stop). A half-competent driver in the second seat would have easily scored more than 15 points with that car, and combined with the points that McLaren and Ferrari would have lost because of Williams cars finishing higher up the order, there you have it.

This year wasn't that bad, but it still hurts. The car definitely had the speed to finish the season in 5th place. It was more consistent than the Sauber and the Mercedes, and the Force India only came good late in the season.
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Re: Your Reject of the Year 2012

Post by Ed24 »

Ferrim wrote:As somewhat of a Williams fan, I remain convinced to this day that they should have finished 3rd in 2009. Yes, 3rd. McLaren and Ferrari, which were 3rd and 4th, had massively slower cars than Williams at the beginning of the season, when the team lost lots of mistakes through operational mistakes. Rosberg also had his share of lost points, particularly at Singapore where he threw away a 2nd place. He should have finished the season on 50+ points instead of the 34.5 he actually got. And then they had a muppet in the other car, who didn't manage to score a single point (not a single point! In the third best car for quite a few races at the start of the year!) throughout the season and was just once on his way to do it (Turkey, where he lost a fairly secure 7th place because of a botched pit stop). A half-competent driver in the second seat would have easily scored more than 15 points with that car, and combined with the points that McLaren and Ferrari would have lost because of Williams cars finishing higher up the order, there you have it.


Well if you start getting into these hypotheticals, Ferrari should have EASILY finished 3rd if it wasn't for Massa's injury. In fact assuming Massa was able to score more than Kimi as he was before his accident, Ferrari could well have ended up with around 120 points.
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Re: Your Reject of the Year 2012

Post by FullMetalJack »

Ed24 wrote:
Ferrim wrote:As somewhat of a Williams fan, I remain convinced to this day that they should have finished 3rd in 2009. Yes, 3rd. McLaren and Ferrari, which were 3rd and 4th, had massively slower cars than Williams at the beginning of the season, when the team lost lots of mistakes through operational mistakes. Rosberg also had his share of lost points, particularly at Singapore where he threw away a 2nd place. He should have finished the season on 50+ points instead of the 34.5 he actually got. And then they had a muppet in the other car, who didn't manage to score a single point (not a single point! In the third best car for quite a few races at the start of the year!) throughout the season and was just once on his way to do it (Turkey, where he lost a fairly secure 7th place because of a botched pit stop). A half-competent driver in the second seat would have easily scored more than 15 points with that car, and combined with the points that McLaren and Ferrari would have lost because of Williams cars finishing higher up the order, there you have it.


Well if you start getting into these hypotheticals, Ferrari should have EASILY finished 3rd if it wasn't for Massa's injury. In fact assuming Massa was able to score more than Kimi as he was before his accident, Ferrari could well have ended up with around 120 points.


I would also assume Kimi would score less points were it not for Massa's accident, as Kimi really seemed to step up when it did happen. Massa was definitely the more impressive out of the two in that first half of the season.
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